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Official Discussion Thread: Season 9.5 Crafting Update

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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    orangeitis wrote: »
    Maybe a console that increases beam damage every time you use an Engineering ability.

    Mmmm... one can dream.

    Yeah, that blog should definitely be pretty trippy - trying to keep my speculative thoughts pretty grounded; but with so many possibilities out there - should be pretty cool all the same.
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Hawk, would fleet Dilithium mine discounts apply to these dilithium costs?

    While I think 5k is reasonable for mark XI, mark XII should be 10k at maximum dilithium wise, if its a weapon or a console. Shields and deflectors, warp cores and such, 20k would be ok.

    Please remember, these will cost materials too, not just dil, and they have to be competitive with fleet and rep store goodies.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,352 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    captaind3 wrote: »
    One question that I haven't seen is what's going to happen to the particle inputs for the Fleet science projects?

    I asked the same question.
    frtoaster wrote: »
    I forgot to ask one question: What will happen to the fleet projects that currently require data samples and particle traces?

    captaind3 wrote: »
    Well I can't argue with how tedious the exploration missions were. But the missions within were monetarily valuable. The question what happens to the explore strange new worlds mission is extremely important to answer.
    Are you doing away with the Explore Strange New Worlds wrapper Dilithium mission and the individual Cluster Mission: Explore the XYZ Nebula/Cluster?

    What's going to happen to those of us still working on those Exploration Accolades?

    :o

    I asked this question as well.
    frtoaster wrote: »
    Does this mean that KDF officers will no longer be able to go to exploration clusters to blow up piles of tribbles? More seriously, what will happen to the daily wrapper that awards 1440 dilithium upon completing 3 missions in an exploration cluster?
    Waiting for a programmer ...
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    mightybobcncmightybobcnc Member Posts: 3,354 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    The conversion isn't automated - double clicking on a particle trace will let you trade it in for new materials. You can trade in as much of your stash as you need to do whatever task you're working on. You can keep all of your traces stored in your Fleet Bank if you want - they just aren't used for anything anymore.

    What about the duty officer assignments that require particles as an input?

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Assignment:_Data_Sample_Analysis
    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Assignment:_Infuse_Alien_Artifact_with_Rare_Particles

    Joined January 2009
    Finger wrote:
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    sirboulevardsirboulevard Member Posts: 722 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    But, but, but...if you guys don't suck out all the ways to gain Dil - then folks will keep farming Dil - folks that want more Dil than they can get will keep buying ZEN to trade for Dil - and Cryptic/PWE will keep making money! Obviously you guys need to suck out all the ways to gain Dilithium! It's the only hope you guys have of...er...not making money.

    I still think you guys show a great deal of patience dealing with some of the folks that post some of the most absurd things...it's pretty nifty, imho. I would get fired before lunch on my first day from replying to some of the posts on the forums. Just want to say I appreciate you guys taking the time to reply and how you take so much in stride while doing so. It's definitely appreciated.

    Except for the part where everytime they've added a new Dilithium sink the Zen-Dil Exchange crashes. Remember when the Exchange rate was 374 - 425 Dil to one Zen? After the fleet starbases, the reputation systems, the dil store being expanded, its down to 154 Dil to one Zen, even after a massive upping in prices. Its gotten as low as 85. It will crash again and suddenly, no one will pay Zen for Dilithium because, why? It won't be valuable. Its devaluing the economy to keep using it as such. As such, Cryptic will LOSE money.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    rtk142 wrote: »
    See, right there, I take issue with. That's THREE days worth of refining for ONE item. That's silly. One item should never be more than one day's worth of refining. Either raise the refining cap, slash dilithium prices, or both.



    And on top of that, they're removing another wrapper assignment that rewards a respectable amount of dilithium ("Explore Strange New Worlds" worth 1440 dilithium).
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    adjudicatorhawkadjudicatorhawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    frtoaster wrote: »
    I forgot to ask one question: What will happen to the fleet projects that currently require data samples and particle traces?

    They'll require the new materials instead.
    Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
    Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
    Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
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    crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,113 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    You will have to start over, but we're working on a reward that honors your commitment to the previous system. You'll get a bit of a leg up on others who are starting fresh.
    ^^^
    Sorry but I think that decision isn't really a good one as (IMO) it's not the first time Crafting progress has been removed with a Crafting revamp. IMO it's never good to effectively say "Yeah, all that work you did maxing out Crafting? It's out the window; but we'll give you a title for it...."

    Grind Trek Online strikes again.
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    adjudicatorhawkadjudicatorhawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    velqua wrote: »
    Another thought that came to mind...

    We have the Prototype Consoles DOFF missions that require Powered Alien Artifact that give us the chance to make Mk XII consoles. Will that mission be removed? Will it require dilithium to complete? How about the Strange Alien Artifact mission? Are those materials staying in the game, or are they being removed? Will we still be able to use Particle Traces to power up the Strange Alien Artifact?

    Those missions will still exist. Any mission that previously required particle traces will now require materials.
    Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
    Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
    Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
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    drreverenddrreverend Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Y'know, how about before amputating great heaping chunks of the game because it "doesn't live up to standards", why not build a better random mission generator?
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    rtk142rtk142 Member Posts: 613 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Worth noting that the Dil costs are entirely on the syntehsizing materials into components - so you can build Mk XI and XII for EC only, as long as someone's selling their Very Rare components.

    that doesn't make it any better.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Except for the part where everytime they've added a new Dilithium sink the Zen-Dil Exchange crashes. Remember when the Exchange rate was 374 - 425 Dil to one Zen? After the fleet starbases, the reputation systems, the dil store being expanded, its down to 154 Dil to one Zen, even after a massive upping in prices. Its gotten as low as 85. It will crash again and suddenly, no one will pay Zen for Dilithium because, why? It won't be valuable. Its devaluing the economy to keep using it as such. As such, Cryptic will LOSE money.

    It's been bouncing around that 150 point for a period of time now...through periods where it should have crashed because of a surplus of Dil from various events and a lack of Dil sinks. They're not going to come out and say what number they want it to be at - but yep, that 300-400 period was a trip (was also why I rerolled toons instead of doing the Dil->ZEN for respec tokens). Was really surprised when folks complained when it got back up to 100 before that dip and folks were complaining about it, eh?

    Down to a certain point, folks will continue to pay ZEN for Dil because they'll want what the Dil buys and they'll want it yesterday. Some folks will say it's not worth it, and they'll just get it as they get it. Heh, even with my it's a MMO and patience thing - I've had the moments where damn it, I just wanted the Dil now and have blown ZEN on it.

    Cryptic closely watches the Exhange rate for Dil <-> ZEN - and - it plays a part in when and how they drop things out. Yeah, they do things that make me /facepalm until I need to pop some Excredrin, but they're not complete idiots.
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    rtk142 wrote: »
    that doesn't make it any better.

    It provides a potential EC sink which might help out the issue taking place on the Exchange. How does that not make it better? They provide an EC sink, they provide an alternate method for folks that might have EC to burn but no Dil? It sounds like they've given more thought to this than some of the things they drop out on us...
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    mandoknight89mandoknight89 Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    drreverend wrote: »
    Y'know, how about before amputating great heaping chunks of the game because it "doesn't live up to standards", why not build a better random mission generator?

    Well, with the rumors of X2 being in the Delta Quadrant, and previous statements that X2 won't have a new playable faction... it's possible that they are working on something for exploration.

    Procedurally generated content is generally very hard to get right, though, so I don't expect X2 to be only a new procedural content generation engine...
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    well since you deleted my question I'll ask it again. Will there still be any system patrols or sector space still in this game after this wonderful update.

    The whole point of Trek is to explore. Is all exploration just been killed?

    I had been looking forward to buying 2 lifetime memberships this summer. Now it seems I will have to retire? Please answer this question instead of deleting it and answering many tiny dillll questions.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

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    akrilonakrilon Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Why I Craft:

    The reason I invest time and effort into levelling through a crafting system in an MMO, is so that I become a valuable asset to my friends and guild members that I play with. While other people focus on their builds and on playing the content, I focus on becoming more skilled in various crafting streams, so that I can be the one to provide levelling guildies and friends with desirable gear as they progress through the game, and to be able to enhance their items at max level. I use crafting to help others in my fleet, not to obtain new and powerful gear for myself. The last thing I'd want to see crafting turn into, is essentially another rep system where I plug in huge amounts of currency for items for myself.


    My concerns about the changes we've heard of so far:

    The biggest road-blocks I've encountered as a crafter in STO up to this point are as follows:

    It was easy to level to max crafting, and given that you had the supplies (which most people had in abundance), you could level from 0 to max crafting in less than half an hour. This made my ability relatively worthless, because anyone willing to invest 20 minutes into the game could level a crafter of their own in no time. I hope that the new crafting system will address this issue, to make achieving a high-level crafting rank more difficult.

    The dilithium cost required to craft items of value to my fleet members who are levelling in the game is astronomical. On one occasion, several months back, a new member to our fleet who was at the Captain rank, was seeking some better gear. Given that I'd invested time and effort into the crafting system, I wanted to be in a position to help this person out, and craft them some rare, Captain ranked weapons, consoles and other gear to help them through the levelling progression. Making a handful of weapons and consoles set me back around 100,000 dilithium... a personal cost that seems unreasonable for helping out ONE member of the fleet, or stocking the fleet bank up with items of quality. I know the counter-argument is that they could have traded me the unreplicatable materials necessary, but what levelling character has that sort of end-game currency to invest in their Captain level ship. Additionally, it could be argued that I could have crafted odd mark gear for no dilithium requirement, but people want quality items, and at Mark X rank and below, I found the dilithium cost to be completely unreasonable and unnecessary.

    I tend to agree with others in that the dilithium cost involved in crafting should be minimal and non-existent at lower levels. After all, although it sounds as though the materials can all be found in-game, many people will undoubtedly be taking to the C-Store to supplement their supply. It feels like double dipping to ask us for the time investment to level, put the materials in the store and then ask for dilithium investment on-top. I feel that because of the time investment the crafting community is ready to sink into your new system, that I'd expect the dilithium intake requirement only for the highest of high level items.


    Questions:

    Would you be so kind as to advise what, if any, the dilithium intake requirement will be for items below the Mark XI and Mark XII you've already mentioned? I'm hoping that the answer will alleviate a lot of my concerns about the direction this is taking, and will allow me, as a crafter who's willing to invest a great deal of time and energy into your game and the new system, to help out my fleet members and friends as they progress in the game, without a burdonsome dilithium cost to myself, essentially punishing me for any generosity of time and spirit.

    Thanks very much in advance!
    I appreciate all of the time and effort you've all put into the revamp.

    Cheers!
    faddc0e2956f1903cb9ac9197fb10cd8_large.png
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    realisticaltyrealisticalty Member Posts: 851 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    This has the potential to be very very nice.

    I've been in other MMO's that have changed their crafting system and haven't always gotten it right, I'll remain cautiously optimistic but the devil's in the details.

    I really don't want to "race for resources". Now I regret avoiding all those science missions on my main character so I wouldn't have to clean his inventory...
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    futurepastnowfuturepastnow Member Posts: 3,660 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    drreverend wrote: »
    Y'know, how about before amputating great heaping chunks of the game because it "doesn't live up to standards", why not build a better random mission generator?

    All of the game expansion rumors for this fall involve a distant region of space that screams "exploration" to me.

    The "procedural" Genesis exploration system STO launched with was and is beyond terrible. You can't kill what never lived.
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    captainsucrecaptainsucre Member Posts: 62 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    It provides a potential EC sink which might help out the issue taking place on the Exchange. How does that not make it better? They provide an EC sink, they provide an alternate method for folks that might have EC to burn but no Dil? It sounds like they've given more thought to this than some of the things they drop out on us...

    The exchange isn't a Energy Credit sink; the credits just goes to the person who puts up the components on the exchange.

    This sounds just like the current situation with crafting and the Unreplicateable Materials.
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    adjudicatorhawkadjudicatorhawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    akrilon wrote: »
    Would you be so kind as to advise what, if any, the dilithium intake requirement will be for items below the Mark XI and Mark XII you've already mentioned? I'm hoping that the answer will alleviate a lot of my concerns about the direction this is taking, and will allow me, as a crafter who's willing to invest a great deal of time and energy into your game and the new system, to help out my fleet members and friends as they progress in the game, without a burdonsome dilithium cost to myself, essentially punishing me for any generosity of time and spirit.

    Thanks very much in advance!
    I appreciate all of the time and effort you've all put into the revamp.

    Cheers!

    There is no Dilithium cost to create items of Mk X or below. There are very minor EC costs, less than or equal to half the cost of buying the item off of a vendor.
    Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
    Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
    Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    One thing I hope, pretty sure it's happening - but I hope all the same, is that even though some of our questions are outside the topic of this specific blog...that those questions are kept in mind for the forthcoming blogs so that the same questions perhaps need not be asked again, eh?

    Basically, that somebody's taking notes of some of the questions being asked on topics to be covered by future blogs and stuff. :D
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    rtk142rtk142 Member Posts: 613 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    It provides a potential EC sink which might help out the issue taking place on the Exchange. How does that not make it better? They provide an EC sink, they provide an alternate method for folks that might have EC to burn but no Dil? It sounds like they've given more thought to this than some of the things they drop out on us...

    Because then it's a matter of farming EC instead of dilithium. I get that they want us to have to work for the stuff, but really, three and four days worth of refinement for ONE item, that doesn't seem crazy to anyone else? Especially when we have to supply dilithium to the fleet system, and oh year earn fleet marks for the fleet system, and by doffs to sacrifice to the fleet system. IF EVERYTHING is going to cost dilithium, we need to be able to refine more than 8000 a day, or they've GOT to reduce the costs on things. This is why small fleets are complaining, because we have to make these choices. We shouldn't be punished because we would rather be in a fleet with our friends instead of humongous fleet filled with people we don't know.
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    sistericsisteric Member Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    I like that Crafting is getting revamped. I like that materails are getting thier own bank slots. I like that the stuff to be made will be relavent and have value. I do not like that Dil has anything to do with crafting. Crafting should ONLY be about finding and collecting materials to turn into things. The only monetizing of Crafting should strictly be the selling of those materials on the Exchange.
    I started doing crafting before there was materials bought with Dil. I actually thought the system was good just underdeveloped. Then DIl got involved and I stopped crafting all together. ANd if Dil continues to be involved, then crafting will never get any time from me.
    THe time involved in collecting the materials, and travel to get to Memory Alpha (Why can't I craft in Engineering Room of my ship I'll never understand) was enough troublr for my limited play time to make it interesting. But Having ANOTHER thing to suck out my precious Dil just means that I won't waste my time on that. I also don't spend the Dil at the fleet because the Fleet Credit exchange rate is not good enough to make it worth it to me. In fact, except for Rep leveling and buying Zen, I don't spend my Dil at all because I just don't see the value of doing so for what I do in the game.
    As long as they feel the need to make Dil the control resource to do anything in game, my play time will remain limited. Playing just to make Dil is not why I play. And playing for fun doesn't make you much Dil.
    I am sorry if you have a different viewpoint on this, but this is my perspective and my game time. Either make it worth the effort or don't expect me to use it.
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    sirboulevardsirboulevard Member Posts: 722 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    There is no Dilithium cost to create items of Mk X or below. There are very minor EC costs, less than or equal to half the cost of buying the item off of a vendor.

    Can I make a point though? Anyone trying to sell Mk XI or higher gear *cannot make back the Dilithium they lost to create said item?* Perhaps the better way to do this is to make Dil costs to upgrading items that are already bound or become bound on acquire. So Fleet-grade items would be bind on acquire. But Mk XII purples or below are acct bind on equip. And so that people who are buying crafted items can spend their Dilithium to have their item crafted but need to team up with the crafter for it to be done so.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    We've changed how Clusters work in 9.5 - they're now locations on the Sector Space map that was adjacent to them. There aren't any material harvesting interacts at these locations, but Doffing at them should now be much more convenient.

    We're removing these missions in 9.5. To be honest, they were universally not up to the standard of quality that we want missions to be in the game, and they were also often where new players would go shortly after the tutorial and get lost.

    ...

    Are you actually replacing them with something? Or are you just killing off exploration?
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    captaind3captaind3 Member Posts: 2,449 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    toiva wrote: »
    Yup In some way, crafting is dead and can't get worse. However doffing in clusters is something I tend to do regularly as well as many other people (some getting dilithium, others exploring, ...). Therefore it's a topic of quite an importance.

    If you don't want to fill this thread with not entirely related talk, please make it known we'd like to know more about that change to clusters.
    ^^
    Those missions will still exist. Any mission that previously required particle traces will now require materials.
    What about the Assignment chains and the Doff rewards at the end of them?


    I do realize that this blog has generated just as many questions regarding the removal of Exploration clusters as it has on Particle traces, but it has touched on something that had its utility. To say nothing about the exploration accolades.
    There is no Dilithium cost to create items of Mk X or below. There are very minor EC costs, less than or equal to half the cost of buying the item off of a vendor.

    That is good to hear.
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    frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,352 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Is there something wrong with your forum software? I could have sworn I read a post by jheinig in this thread, to which mightybobcnc replied. Now, both posts are gone. Did I just imagine it?
    Waiting for a programmer ...
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    orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    Can we craft ships and/or costume pieces via the crafting system?
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    akrilonakrilon Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    There is no Dilithium cost to create items of Mk X or below. There are very minor EC costs, less than or equal to half the cost of buying the item off of a vendor.

    This is fantastic news... thanks so much!
    faddc0e2956f1903cb9ac9197fb10cd8_large.png
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    virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2014
    frtoaster wrote: »
    Is there something wrong with your forum software? I could have sworn I read a post by jheinig in this thread, to which mightybobcnc replied. Now, both posts are gone. Did I just imagine it?

    Nah, they...uh...yeah, we're not allowed to discuss what they did.

    But I noticed the shift in post count/post location. Wasn't sure what caused it, but that post and the replies would have covered the real estate lost.
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