heh, the D'Deridex can't tank and deal high damage? I'm sure DDIS here could give you plenty of double D builds that can tank and deal impressive damage. The main reason so many people use the Scimitar over the D'Deridex is because the Scimitar has a hangar pet that runs scramble sensors, Fire at Will III, and Beam Overload III. Both ships are extremely overpowered when paired with the Valdore console.
with only three tac consoles, the DD's firepower when compared to other ships is not impressive. the ship is slow, ungainly, and takes too long to maneuver and/or position. And before you ask if i even have the ship, i have ALL but one fleet Romulan ship, and that one isnt a DD. My fleet DD can tank, but as well as any toher ship? no. The DD is a "Jack-of-all" trades ship, but a master of none, in this regard it is OK, but there are many, many ships that can do a single thing far better than the DD. THAT is why not one uses it.
A Romulan doesn't need the Valdore console to tank. That is merely an illusion created by players now dependent on the console for their survival.
Oh really? lets see it done with out the valdore console. Take the DD, (best tanky ship the romulans have) into PVP with out a valdore and try to tank. lets see how long you last. If you can do it, i will gladly retract my statement however, if you are even unwilling to even try, i would have to ask why. Also, more to the point, lets see a tanky DD get kills in pvp all without the valdore because i oringal statement was that it it cannot both be tanky AND have good DPS without the valdore console, that no romulan ship could. so again, if you...or anyone for that matter, can show it to be possible then i am wrong but if you cant, then your point is false.
Your claim is absurd considering every Romulan ship has equal or superior stats to their Federation counterparts.
This is untrue. what makes romulan ships powerful is their BOFFS and crit levels. if you replace your rom crew with a human one, you will see what i mean. as for stats, romulan hulls are weaker than fed/KDF ships. this is to balance for the battle cloak. also, there is a -40 power to all rom ships which means they are slower, less shielded, and heal slower due to less power. Now, i know these power restrictions can be overcome however, the gear/DOFFS/console needed to do so eat up slots that FED/KDF ship dont need to do. THIS means that while a rom ship can overcome its -40 power via gear, it must be more specialized because after said power limits are raised, it has less console space for other things. Sure you can have a fast rom ship, and it might half high powerlevels in one other system and only one.....BEFORE buffs than is. FED/KDF ships idle with a least three system above 50.... NOw i have a rom dyson which on occasion can max out ALL power levels. ON OCCASION. and it do it, it needs to drain from another ship. FED/KDF ships can do it, and keep their power level maxed constantly without draining....but this isnt the point so i digress. the romulan ship stats DO NOT match nor are they better than their FED/KDF counterparts.
For instance. fedships can get away with not using any power bossting consoles other than leech and on a fed/kdf ship, even leech is used to counter everyone elses leech. on a romship, you need leech plus whatever else you can get while on a fed/kdf ship you dont.
Subtly admitting the console is overpowered while attempting to bargain for something in return for the balance pass. Has anyone ever told you how pointless it is to use such arguments?
I didnot say the console was overpowered, you did. what i said was: "My feds Fleet Avenger shruged off multiple romulan vaper attacks (all from one romulan mind you.) supported by 2 other klingon Bops all working to kill me for cloase to 3-4 minutes straight and could get me below 50%. And those werent noob klinks. Considering i use the cloak on my avenger, making it a 9 console ship, this is nuts. and the Mogh could do the same if not better with the plus 1 slot. I cant think of any romulan ship that could of done that WITH the valdore console....." the only mention of the valdore console is in blue. as you can see, i didnt say it was OP, i said it is needed to tank, and since you or anyone else hasnt shown concrete proof to the contrary, that point stands. Again, present proof to show otherwise and i have no problem admitting i am wrong. If you cant, then you sir, are wrong.
Master Chief Petty Officer Keel'el sends her regards as she laughs off your pathetic attempts to use debuffs to defeat the Valdore console.
Yea......because THAT doff is SOOO easy to get and EVERYONE has one..... even withtthat DOFF two sci ships working in tandem could theoretically alternate their debuffs forcing said ship to blow its heals in hopes of procing the doff....leaving it open for a vaper attack. In thoery that is. this also means thanks to a doff you need 3 or more ships and some luck to kill one ship.......
I really do like how you use the strawman fallacy though. Bringing up a doff to show how broken the valdore console is only shows how broken THE DOFF is. not the console.
reply in red sir.
the fact is, the console is fine. if nerfed, it will take away any reason, other than vaping, to take a rom into pvp. because that is all they will be good for. hell, its nearly that way now..... Romulan ships other than the scim, tvaro and the arkif are rare if even in pvp. and only one of those can tank...KINDA. and even then, it NEEDS the valdore console to survive. the other two have either such weak hull, or weak shields....or both, that all they can do is vape. never brawl or tank.
The valdore console has no weight in the reason why romulans are -40.
It is an option that is so absurdly good that you would be a fool not to take it. When an optional item becomes a must have, it is broken...the plasmonic leech has been double nerfed and still is a staple. The 2p borg has been double(triple perhaps?) nerfed and we have players that are still running it, more on this later.
If I can take my Plesh brek into pvp and survive/kill others. I sure as hell can bring the dd, the tank of the Romulan flotilla, in and run it as a tanky alpha striker.
The valdore is in the same realm as the original borg 2p set. Passive healing is an incredible bonus that requires many balancing passes to get right. The valdore hasn't seen any...it's time for what's due.
And for the record, the plasmonic leech should not be considered for the -40 penalty either.
The 2 reasons that romulans get a -40 penalty is due to battle cloak and singularity powers...that's it. To argue it any other way is shortsighted at best
The valedore console already got a massive nerf, amounting to far more than all assimilated nerfs added together. It used to be really good. Now, it's still worth a slot, unlike every other cstore console other than plasmonic leech, but the choice is barely borderline. Definitely not a must have that plasmonic leech is.
The bottom line is, it rarely activates when you actually need heals, and when you do need heals, it's not anywhere close to enough to keep you alive. No change in outcome. The only thing that needs fixing is making healing full shield not count in pvp endgame screen, changing anything to the console itself will unbalance one of the few well balanced consoles in game.
heh, the D'Deridex can't tank and deal high damage? I'm sure DDIS here could give you plenty of double D builds that can tank and deal impressive damage. The main reason so many people use the Scimitar over the D'Deridex is because the Scimitar has a hangar pet that runs scramble sensors, Fire at Will III, and Beam Overload III. Both ships are extremely overpowered when paired with the Valdore console.
A Romulan doesn't need the Valdore console to tank. That is merely an illusion created by players now dependent on the console for their survival.
i can get it to deal damage in spite of itself, but its not nearly as durable as a proper cruiser, i tend to sing jump and evasive as soon as i get focused on. of all the tac cruisers it can take the attention the least long, but its got unparalleled escape ability compared to any other cruiser. a lot of that has to do with the lack of 2 LT level eng stations, and having to waist a LTC slot on AtB. the stong tac and sci though makes for interesting builds. the scimitar is actually more durable, but no ship has a tendency to be set up more poorly then the scimitar.
none of the warbirds are built to be visible more often then cloaked, their optimization simply runs counter with beam boat builds. but the valdor console helps make up for the lack of shield power, and lets it tank beter in certain situations. only really on a beam boat warbird or when your in a dogfight situation though. it wont help you when your running, it procs on weapon hits. and its based on a certain hit, not your dps.
The valdore console has no weight in the reason why romulans are -40.
You might have misunderstood. i brought up the -40 power of romulan ships in response to his saying romulan ship stats are better than fed stats, not to compare to the valdore console.
It is an option that is so absurdly good that you would be a fool not to take it. When an optional item becomes a must have, it is broken...the plasmonic leech has been double nerfed and still is a staple. The 2p borg has been double(triple perhaps?) nerfed and we have players that are still running it, more on this later.
I disagree. An option becoming a must have doesnt mean that it itself is broken. it could mean that there is a flaw in the things the item is being added to. More to the point, romulan ships cant tank well. the valdore console aids in tanking. thus if you want more survivability, add the valdore console. The propble inst that the valdore console is soo good, but that romulan ships are soo bad. and they are.
It is romulan gear traits and doffs COMBINED with battlelcloak that makes them good. Anyone of those things alone doesnt make an awesome broken ship, valdore console included. and if it needs to be combined with other stuff to be broke, then thats not broken gameplay, its good ship building.
If I can take my Plesh brek into pvp and survive/kill others. I sure as hell can bring the dd, the tank of the Romulan flotilla, in and run it as a tanky alpha striker.
the breen ship has:
A. More power and thanks to power has:
1. more speed
2.more shield hardness
3. more aux for heals, aiding in tanking.
4. more weapond power for more DPS.
B. is faster and thus has more defense through speed.
C. has more tac consoles for more dps.
your comparison is flawed and biased.
Also, if you set up the DD as an alpha striker, then by virture of used tactics you are NOT tanking and thus have not fulfilled the test. Half the time you will be untargetable and when things get hot, can fade into cloak. if you are tanking, you arent cloaking. you are duking it out in a slugfest. romulan ship cannot do this without the valdore console as it is. Now, you could argue that "slugging it out" isnt the romulan play style BUT there are tactical situation where you HAVE TO.
Consider youre PVPing and youre in a DD. youre Big, and slow, but you can heal others which puts you in the crusier/healer role. with only 3 tac consoles and low power what else can you do. as a healer you CANT cloak. you have to slug it out.
but i know what you might say:
"But why be a healer in a DD when the tholian carrier is WAYYY better at surviving and healing?!"
EXACTLY!!! MY original point concerning the DD was that it cant do ANYTHING as well as other ships. Including tank. and it is THE TANK of the romulans. the DD, like all the other romulan ships, need the valdore console. again, by all means, test it out, jump into a pvp without the valdore console IN A SHIP MEANT TO TANK. record it and post. OR, show some concrete evidence that counter my point otherwise, we are just to people shouting opinions except...the data used to show how broken the console is REALLY shows how needed it is when the lack of shield power is considered with regards to shield hardness and effectiveness. Romulan shields, BECAUSE of lower sheild power are less effective than KDF/FED ships.
The valdore is in the same realm as the original borg 2p set. Passive healing is an incredible bonus that requires many balancing passes to get right. The valdore hasn't seen any...it's time for what's due.
not true. it has been nerfed at least once already.
And for the record, the plasmonic leech should not be considered for the -40 penalty either.
Considering again you missed my point. or you flat out ignored it. for romulans and their -40 power, the leech IS NEEDED. to gain power to cover the problems i mentioned above. Also, i NEVER said the leech is to balance for the -40 power. considering leech is a KDF console this could have NEVER been the case. please stop putting words in my mouth.
The 2 reasons that romulans get a -40 penalty is due to battle cloak and singularity powers...that's it. To argue it any other way is shortsighted at best
Was never my point. you seem to have missed my points.....
Its threads like this that remind everyone why PvPers are generally hated in this game. Keep it up, people like the OP are just encouraging them to make changes that will further accelerate this games rapid death spiral.
Let's take a look at what is colloquially known as the "Valdore console". Its official name is "Shield Absorptive Frequency Generator" and this universal console provides the player with a passive shield healing that is based on their damage output.
We can see that a huge part of their healing comes from the valdore console. Yes, it overheals quite a bit, but if you have that kind of healing you are nigh invincible even if you waste a portion of it.
Going by these values, the effect is clearly unbalanced. The console's healing overshadows all othre abilities. But maybe it was just this match and maybe other players also have such crazy healing even without this console?
So let's take a look at the general distribution of shield healing in the game, based upon log data from several thousand matches:
The Valdore console totally dominates the picture among players who use it. It allows them to achieve huge self-healing values that can go way beyond what other players achieve with regular healing abilities and turns ships that are designed to have lots of damage but little healing into extremely strong damage-dealing tanks.
The problem is a combination of the facts that the potential healing values can be too big / too often and that it is an always-on passive power with a huge benefit and essentially no opportunity cost.
In my opinion one should consider either a) putting a hard cap on the maximal healing rate of the console (so that it only reduces the excesses at the top and doesn't punish players who don't get these crazy values) or b) turning it into a clickable power that grants this type of healing only for 15s every 5min or so.
Another silly noob argument....
Healing numbers are meaningless, they include heals applied at 100% shields which do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The overwhelming bulk of the Valdore heals fall into this category.
The Valdore console has ALREADY been nerfed, anymore and it's useless, particularly for lower dps players.
Also, low romulan system power is directly relevant to the need for this console - without the abilitiy to maintain resonable levels of shield power romulans have crappy shield resistance and are not viable for PVP builds that need to tank spike damage.
The valdore console's tool tip has always said it gives 200% healing. When it first came out it was giving 2000% healing so it was fixed to give the intended 200% healing. That's not a nerf...that's a fix. It wasn't working as the devs had intend it to work. If it was only giving 20% people would have asked for the full 200% and the devs would have sill fixed it because it would have been broken. So, saying it has already been nerfed isn't being too honest with the facts.
I have a question? In the graphs that you linked it says besides the Valdore console 1st, theres alot of healing being done by Sci Console shield Proc. Would you be so kind as to tell me what Sci consloe it is refering to. Fleet,Dyson another ship console? Ty in advance. Just really curious.
Also, low romulan system power is directly relevant to the need for this console - without the abilitiy to maintain resonable levels of shield power romulans have crappy shield resistance and are not viable for PVP builds that need to tank spike damage.
The valdore console(im including the plasmonic leech) are not means to the end result of romulan ships having -40 energy.
The help offset the inherent issue. But you can't say they are the voltron that make up romulan ships.
If your so against the nerfing...be for the sharing
The valdore console(im including the plasmonic leech) are not means to the end result of romulan ships having -40 energy.
The help offset the inherent issue. But you can't say they are the voltron that make up romulan ships.
If your so against the nerfing...be for the sharing
I don't think anyone on our side is against sharing, we don't care who has it, we just despise PvPers and there constant calls for nerfing of anything they don't like.
I would also like to share built in battle cloaks and superior operative boffs, or a reasonable equivalent, for the other factions. But stuff like that would actually make the game more enjoyable and ofcourse that is against company policy.
But, I am getting a little tired of the endless crying about how things need to be nerfed:
1. Nerf Borg 2-set
2. Nerf Aux to Batt
3. Nerf FAW
4. Nerf Plasmonic Leech
6. Nerf Phasers
7. Nerf Beam Overload
8. Nerf Double Tap
9. Now, Nerf Valdore
Seriously, how about learning to overcome these abilities and change your ship/build/powers to do so, instead of having cryptic nerf the ability so your ship/build is no longer obsolete. Look, we hate Feedback Pulse--with our dps, its like instant death to us. But, the first thing that came to my mind was how to avoid it or beat it--my instinct was not to go run to the forums and get Cryptic to nerf it.
Anyway, here is the video of the 5v7 match from earlier. We only had 2 faw scimi's, 1 cannon scimi, 1 wells, and a palisade (or a bastion, I get those 2 mixed up):
I think we won it 30-6. So maybe it's not quite FAW/Valdores/Scimis that are the problem--it might just be the pilots. And we didn't have much issue busting through their Scimi's with their Valdores.
Lastly, nerfing the Valore is nothing but silliness, all you will do is hurt most of the player base, and the console will become unusable--thus Cryptic will not make anymore sales of that ship. Capping it is silly too--again, it will hurt sales.
The only problems with the console, is it records heals, when no heal can technically be applied, and anything that is considered a form of attack can set it off, and not just energy weapons.
The console is fine, it is the bugged mechanics that follow with it, that needs fixing.
with only three tac consoles, the DD's firepower when compared to other ships is not impressive. the ship is slow, ungainly, and takes too long to maneuver and/or position. And before you ask if i even have the ship, i have ALL but one fleet Romulan ship, and that one isnt a DD. My fleet DD can tank, but as well as any toher ship? no. The DD is a "Jack-of-all" trades ship, but a master of none, in this regard it is OK, but there are many, many ships that can do a single thing far better than the DD. THAT is why not one uses it.
Three Tactical consoles is more than enough to deal substantial damage to enemy targets. The Lt. Commander Science allows the D'Deridex to carry a multitude of damage dealing science abilities. The D'Deridex actually has +10 Inertia over the Scimitar, but 1.5 less base turn rate. Due to this, the D'Deridex actually has better handling over the Scimitar. Impulse modifiers are identical and the D'Deridex is no slower than the Scimitar.
Oh really? lets see it done with out the valdore console. Take the DD, (best tanky ship the romulans have) into PVP with out a valdore and try to tank. lets see how long you last. If you can do it, i will gladly retract my statement however, if you are even unwilling to even try, i would have to ask why. Also, more to the point, lets see a tanky DD get kills in pvp all without the valdore because i oringal statement was that it it cannot both be tanky AND have good DPS without the valdore console, that no romulan ship could. so again, if you...or anyone for that matter, can show it to be possible then i am wrong but if you cant, then your point is false.
The D'Deridex has a very powerful setup capable of running two copies of Transfer Shield Strength, an EPtX chain, and an Aux2X chain. This is all without using the Lt. Commander Tactical station for offensive capabilities.
This is untrue. what makes romulan ships powerful is their BOFFS and crit levels. if you replace your rom crew with a human one, you will see what i mean.
Romulans are also capable of running full Human crews.
as for stats, romulan hulls are weaker than fed/KDF ships. this is to balance for the battle cloak
Blatantly false; compare the Fleet Dhelan Warbird Retrofit to the Fleet Advanced Escort. Identical in many ways, but the Dhelan has superior inertia, shield strength, and a universal Lt. slot instead of Lt. Tactical.
also, there is a -40 power to all rom ships which means they are slower, less shielded, and heal slower due to less power. Now, i know these power restrictions can be overcome however, the gear/DOFFS/console needed to do so eat up slots that FED/KDF ship dont need to do. THIS means that while a rom ship can overcome its -40 power via gear, it must be more specialized because after said power limits are raised, it has less console space for other things. Sure you can have a fast rom ship, and it might half high powerlevels in one other system and only one.....BEFORE buffs than is. FED/KDF ships idle with a least three system above 50.... NOw i have a rom dyson which on occasion can max out ALL power levels. ON OCCASION. and it do it, it needs to drain from another ship. FED/KDF ships can do it, and keep their power level maxed constantly without draining....but this isnt the point so i digress. the romulan ship stats DO NOT match nor are they better than their FED/KDF counterparts.
For instance. fedships can get away with not using any power bossting consoles other than leech and on a fed/kdf ship, even leech is used to counter everyone elses leech. on a romship, you need leech plus whatever else you can get while on a fed/kdf ship you dont.
The -10 all power levels is intended to balance out Romulan Battle Cloak and Singularity abilities. This is the only penalty Romulans have, but they obtain what is effectively a commander Science Station in return. The penalty is a joke that is easily overcome.
I didnot say the console was overpowered, you did. what i said was: "My feds Fleet Avenger shruged off multiple romulan vaper attacks (all from one romulan mind you.) supported by 2 other klingon Bops all working to kill me for cloase to 3-4 minutes straight and could get me below 50%. And those werent noob klinks. Considering i use the cloak on my avenger, making it a 9 console ship, this is nuts. and the Mogh could do the same if not better with the plus 1 slot. I cant think of any romulan ship that could of done that WITH the valdore console....." the only mention of the valdore console is in blue. as you can see, i didnt say it was OP, i said it is needed to tank, and since you or anyone else hasnt shown concrete proof to the contrary, that point stands. Again, present proof to show otherwise and i have no problem admitting i am wrong. If you cant, then you sir, are wrong.
The Valdore console isn't an anti vaper console and cannot be used at such. The Valdore console is for fighting visible targets. This makes the console extremely overpowered against Starfleet and Klingon ships that cannot cloak in combat or at all. Plenty of Romulan ships can tank a vaper with or without the console. Anything with RSP + TT usually won't die to a vaper attack.
Yea......because THAT doff is SOOO easy to get and EVERYONE has one..... even withtthat DOFF two sci ships working in tandem could theoretically alternate their debuffs forcing said ship to blow its heals in hopes of procing the doff....leaving it open for a vaper attack. In thoery that is. this also means thanks to a doff you need 3 or more ships and some luck to kill one ship.......
I really do like how you use the strawman fallacy though. Bringing up a doff to show how broken the valdore console is only shows how broken THE DOFF is. not the console.
You are trying to say that Science can counter the Valdore console, but in truth it cannot at the moment. Science debuffs are so easily stripped by that duty officer, science team, and engineering team. You are giving a 1v2 situation, but all PvP matches are 5v5. There are always more cleanses than debuff abilities. Broken debuff cleanses aside, the Valdore console is superior to any other shield healing console in the entire game.
the fact is, the console is fine. if nerfed, it will take away any reason, other than vaping, to take a rom into pvp. because that is all they will be good for. hell, its nearly that way now..... Romulan ships other than the scim, tvaro and the arkif are rare if even in pvp. and only one of those can tank...KINDA. and even then, it NEEDS the valdore console to survive. the other two have either such weak hull, or weak shields....or both, that all they can do is vape. never brawl or tank.
A single console alone should never define a faction. There is a big problem if the only reason to fly a Romulan Warbird is to exploit a console that is overpowered in terms of healing. The Scimitar wouldn't need the Valdore console if player ran a decent number of defensive abilities. The Ar'kif is just a Federation Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier with Battle Cloak and Singularity abilities. If you can't tank in an Ar'kif without the Valdore console, then there is something wrong with your build. The T'Varo is a Romulan Warbird Raider, can fire while cloaked, and should be used accordingly. Few if any vapers use the Valdore console for vaper runs. I see plenty of other Romulan ships in PvP all the time.
Three Tactical consoles is more than enough to deal substantial damage to enemy targets. The Lt. Commander Science allows the D'Deridex to carry a multitude of damage dealing science abilities. The D'Deridex actually has +10 Inertia over the Scimitar, but 1.5 less base turn rate. Due to this, the D'Deridex actually has better handling over the Scimitar. Impulse modifiers are identical and the D'Deridex is no slower than the Scimitar.
incorrect. the scimitar's sliding...if you are into that, allows ylu to slide pass and opponant while keeping your nose pointed at them. this means longer time for cannons on target. also, the high base turn rate means the scimitar get more boost from turn consoles. at the end of boosting, the scimitar will always have high turn rate and that mean better maneuvering.
Now, about the tac consoles, three is RELATIVELY, weaker than the other romulan ships used to pvp. because of THIS, you will never give the DPS out of the DD you will other romulan ships. this is a fact. and LT. commander sci slot you mentioned......oh my, a GW1......which a2D, EM, APO, and others, all of which everyone uses, laughs at GW1. your best bet might, MIGHT, be FBP which people will just wait out AND THEN KILL YOU.
now, the DD can put out dmg. but not as much as other romulan ships.
The D'Deridex has a very powerful setup capable of running two copies of Transfer Shield Strength, an EPtX chain, and an Aux2X chain. This is all without using the Lt. Commander Tactical station for offensive capabilities.
ok, wow, you can A2B, A2D you DD with added heals. big deal. the POINT i was making is that ALL the other ships that can, do it faster and better than the DD. the ONLY thing, IMHO that the DD can do better than all the other romulan ships is tank, but even to do that it NEEDS the valdore console.....
Or....if you think otherwise, video some proof and prove me wrong.
Romulans are also capable of running full Human crews.
only if they are fed allied and they give up critH/critD to do it. I mentioned this before......
Blatantly false; compare the Fleet Dhelan Warbird Retrofit to the Fleet Advanced Escort. Identical in many ways, but the Dhelan has superior inertia, shield strength, and a universal Lt. slot instead of Lt. Tactical.
ok, i will bite. but you should know, the fleet advanced escort is obselete and NEEDS to be updated. you essentially compared windows XP to Windows 8......
but i like how the power issue is ALWAYS ignored when comparing romulan ships to other ships. POWER MATTERS. see my last post about this.
that -40 power, which cannot be ignored AND is the main reason for the valdore console being needed with regards to survivability, mens less power to shields and in turn means they shields are less effective in eating damage. This means while a sheild mod might be higher, it performs less than it should. hell, the shield on my Klink's fleet brel eat more damage than my rom's fleet Tvaro and they use THE SAME EXACT SHIELDS AND POWER SETTINGS!
The -10 all power levels is intended to balance out Romulan Battle Cloak and Singularity abilities. This is the only penalty Romulans have, but they obtain what is effectively a commander Science Station in return. The penalty is a joke that is easily overcome.
And as if have stated in other threads, the sing powers cant kill ANYONE. they are AT BEST defencive powers, at worst escape powers.
now, about overcoming the -40 power, as i said, sure it can be done. but if you do on a fed/kdf ship what is done on a rom ship to over come that -40 power(which the fed/kdf do not have) you end up with a rom with ok-good power levels, and a fed/kdf ship with awesome power levels. this in turn means:
faster engines
harder hitting weapons
stronger shields
and better heals due to more aux power.
no romulan ship enjoys that because of the -40 power. now you can max out all power levels on a rom ship, hell, i have done it, but it is TEMPORARY while it can be done 100% of the time on fed/kdf ships....
The Valdore console isn't an anti vaper console and cannot be used at such. The Valdore console is for fighting visible targets. This makes the console extremely overpowered against Starfleet and Klingon ships that cannot cloak in combat or at all. Plenty of Romulan ships can tank a vaper with or without the console. Anything with RSP + TT usually won't die to a vaper attack.
ok, i will admit you have a point here however, most people arent running RSP in pvp. all it does is give you a few more seconds to live, and then you die.
You are trying to say that Science can counter the Valdore console, but in truth it cannot at the moment. Science debuffs are so easily stripped by that duty officer, science team, and engineering team. You are giving a 1v2 situation, but all PvP matches are 5v5. There are always more cleanses than debuff abilities. Broken debuff cleanses aside, the Valdore console is superior to any other shield healing console in the entire game.
but as others have pointed out, the data is skewed. the valdore console "procs" whether your shields are full or not. this leads to skewed heal numbers and all those numbers are counted.
its like this. your a scimitar FAW spammer, you decloak and let loose. youre sheild are full yet because your hits are about 2-3k, the console goes off....again and again and again.....but your sheilds are full so did you REALLY heal anything? if you are taking dmg then yea, heals, but those heals only continue as long as you stay and fight. as soon as its time to cloak, no heals. so then at this point one of two things happen:
Either a you hide, decloak and heal your shields from the fight because as soon as you went to cloak, your weapons stops and you took dmg or......
you ignore the dmged shields and decloak for surprise hoping the valdore console comes through. it might, it might not and here is the thing that your side of the debate is forgeting,
if you DPS is poor, so are the heals and valdore console or not, YOU DIE. most vapers dont even use it because they are in the fight long enough for it to matter. and since most romulans are vapers...... only brawlers, as i said before NEED the valdore console and thanks to the -40 ruining sheild hardness, they either use it or run with bad shields....or they A2BFAWSPAM with needed doffs.....
but even non rom ships do THAT better too.
A single console alone should never define a faction. There is a big problem if the only reason to fly a Romulan Warbird is to exploit a console that is overpowered in terms of healing. The Scimitar wouldn't need the Valdore console if player ran a decent number of defensive abilities. The Ar'kif is just a Federation Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier with Battle Cloak and Singularity abilities. If you can't tank in an Ar'kif without the Valdore console, then there is something wrong with your build. The T'Varo is a Romulan Warbird Raider, can fire while cloaked, and should be used accordingly. Few if any vapers use the Valdore console for vaper runs. I see plenty of other Romulan ships in PvP all the time.
as you can see there are differences. the romulan ship has:
less hull....as i said.....
more crew, which is bad due to more crew causing slow hull heal.
more turn rate (does not DIRECTLY affect survivability.)
+1 tac console for more DPS.
less engineering slots which means less armor and in turn less resists...
AND the -40 power which is really a -10 to each system.
so that +15 to weapons, is REALLY a +5, and a -10 to sheilds means weaker performing shields, which means that sheild mod of .99 isnt really .99, it is more like a .8
now the valdore console does not "define" the faction. honestly, battle cloak does. But the issue is the valdore console and as a related result of the issue, shield effectiveness.
Romulan shield, because if the negative power will always perform worst than fed/kdf ships but because romulan ship spend a lot of time cloaked or are vapers who dont really need sheild 100% of the time, this is overlooked. It is only really seen when trying to tank, which most romulans do not do because of cloak. why tank when you can cloak? but if you DO try to tank, or are forced to tank because of a disabled cloak, you will see, romulan shields are not the same has the others and they drop fast. the valdore console is meant to aid in this.
Again. video yourself trying to tank WITHOUT the valdore console and see if you can. provide some data to support your point. if not you, SOMEONE PLEASE.
if they can, i would like to point out that hull tanking is possible but for the purpose of this debate, is a cheat because it will not show the effectiveness, or lack there of, of romulan shields. for an accurate test we need to see shield tanking without the valdore console in a romulan ship.
i think the best ships for shield tanking might by the dyson because of its shield mod. the time romulan ships DO NOT count because they dont use sing cores and dont have the -40 power.
I have a question? In the graphs that you linked it says besides the Valdore console 1st, theres alot of healing being done by Sci Console shield Proc. Would you be so kind as to tell me what Sci consloe it is refering to. Fleet,Dyson another ship console? Ty in advance. Just really curious.
This refers to the shield healing proc that you can get on science consoles from the embassy.
But I think you need to be careful with the colours. In the chart the Rom T4 Rep proc and the sci console proc have very similar colours. The large(r) greenish band is the Rom T4.
incorrect. the scimitar's sliding...if you are into that, allows ylu to slide pass and opponant while keeping your nose pointed at them. this means longer time for cannons on target. also, the high base turn rate means the scimitar get more boost from turn consoles. at the end of boosting, the scimitar will always have high turn rate and that mean better maneuvering.
If you like sliding, then the Scimitar is a good ship. However, if you like ships such as an Avenger, then sliding is not an enjoyable experience.
Now, about the tac consoles, three is RELATIVELY, weaker than the other romulan ships used to pvp. because of THIS, you will never give the DPS out of the DD you will other romulan ships. this is a fact. and LT. commander sci slot you mentioned......oh my, a GW1......which a2D, EM, APO, and others, all of which everyone uses, laughs at GW1. your best bet might, MIGHT, be FBP which people will just wait out AND THEN KILL YOU.
now, the DD can put out dmg. but not as much as other romulan ships.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of Inverted Tractor Beam Repulsors II + Eject Warp Plasma with Attack Pattern Omega I + Alpha and Fire at Will blazing. Toss on some particle generators with +Pla for more tactical consoles or +HuH or +ShH for more healing.
ok, wow, you can A2B, A2D you DD with added heals. big deal. the POINT i was making is that ALL the other ships that can, do it faster and better than the DD. the ONLY thing, IMHO that the DD can do better than all the other romulan ships is tank, but even to do that it NEEDS the valdore console.....
I'd slot EPtS1 + Aux2Damp + EPtS3 + RSP3. Use a Matter/Anti-Matter Specialist for 76.6% uptime on Auxiliary to Battery, use a Fabrication Engineer for ~25 seconds on Reverse Shield Polarity. Throw on the standard Hazard Emitters I + Transfer Shield Strength II with 2x Tactical Team I and you still have a universal ensign slot for Engineering Team I, Science Team I, or another Hazard Emitters/Transfer Shield Strength. You'd be able to tank well with that setup without popping out a Valdore console. Running attack from my posts two comments up and it won't be hard to take a little focus fire now and again. I'd make such a video myself, but I don't have any Romulan C-store ships.
ok, i will bite. but you should know, the fleet advanced escort is obselete and NEEDS to be updated. you essentially compared windows XP to Windows 8......
Well, that analogy isn't exactly accurate because Windows XP is great and Windows 8 is terrible. The Fleet Advanced Escort is far from obsolete, but an ensign universal would serve it well.
but i like how the power issue is ALWAYS ignored when comparing romulan ships to other ships. POWER MATTERS. see my last post about this.
that -40 power, which cannot be ignored AND is the main reason for the valdore console being needed with regards to survivability, mens less power to shields and in turn means they shields are less effective in eating damage. This means while a sheild mod might be higher, it performs less than it should. hell, the shield on my Klink's fleet brel eat more damage than my rom's fleet Tvaro and they use THE SAME EXACT SHIELDS AND POWER SETTINGS!
This isn't technically correct. Romulan ships have 40 less base power (160 instead of 200). They aren't penalized on maximum power and are capable of reaching 125 maximum power. They are also capable of setting shield power settings to 50 just like a federation or klingon starship. However, the -40 base power starts to fade when you factor in Starship Warp Core Efficiency. Romulans will get more out of this stat because two of their subsystems will be lower. There are numerous pieces of ship gear, consoles, duty officers, and bridge officers capable of substantially increasing a starship's power levels. Not to mention a fleet level singularity core will decrease the power penalty from -40 to -5 if the player doesn't use any of their singularity abilities (for those claiming they are weak/useless).
And as if have stated in other threads, the sing powers cant kill ANYONE. they are AT BEST defencive powers, at worst escape powers.
Plasma Shockwave is an AoE Plasma DoT that will destroy all fighters, mines, and high yield torpedoes in 5km. It will also deal significant plasma damage to enemy hulls with 100% shield bypass. Quantum Absorption will make the Romulan ship pseudo immune to bleedthrough while providing a heal equivalent to Transfer Shield Strength II for an extended duration. Singularity Jump will break enemy target lock on your ship, decrease their weapon accuracy, and pull them inward while dealing damage. Warp Shadows grants perfect stealth for several seconds as well as fake copies of your ship in the form of spam. Lastly, Singularity Overcharge enhances energy weapons for a duration.
no romulan ship enjoys that because of the -40 power. now you can max out all power levels on a rom ship, hell, i have done it, but it is TEMPORARY while it can be done 100% of the time on fed/kdf ships....
2x Energy Siphon (usually II + III), Emergency Power to Shields + Emergency Power to Engines, Plasmonic Leech, and +25 all power levels warp core engineer with EPtX. Run 3-5 flow capacitor consoles and call me in the morning.
ok, i will admit you have a point here however, most people arent running RSP in pvp. all it does is give you a few more seconds to live, and then you die.
Reverse Shield Polarity is quite powerful due to the Fabrication Engineer that adds +8 seconds to the reverse shield polarity timer. It is possible to use Reverse Shield Polarity for 18-25 seconds with a 35-42 second cooldown after expiration.
but as others have pointed out, the data is skewed. the valdore console "procs" whether your shields are full or not. this leads to skewed heal numbers and all those numbers are counted.
its like this. your a scimitar FAW spammer, you decloak and let loose. youre sheild are full yet because your hits are about 2-3k, the console goes off....again and again and again.....but your sheilds are full so did you REALLY heal anything? if you are taking dmg then yea, heals, but those heals only continue as long as you stay and fight. as soon as its time to cloak, no heals. so then at this point one of two things happen:
Either a you hide, decloak and heal your shields from the fight because as soon as you went to cloak, your weapons stops and you took dmg or......
you ignore the dmged shields and decloak for surprise hoping the valdore console comes through. it might, it might not and here is the thing that your side of the debate is forgeting,
if you DPS is poor, so are the heals and valdore console or not, YOU DIE. most vapers dont even use it because they are in the fight long enough for it to matter. and since most romulans are vapers...... only brawlers, as i said before NEED the valdore console and thanks to the -40 ruining sheild hardness, they either use it or run with bad shields....or they A2BFAWSPAM with needed doffs.....
but even non rom ships do THAT better too.
This is exactly the point, the Valdore console shouldn't increase exponentially in strength as a ship's outgoing damage increases. A cap on the maximum shield healing and frequency of the shield healing is what really needs to happen. This won't have much of an impact on the average user, but it would stop 20k+ DPS scimitars from becoming immortal from a single console.
as you can see there are differences. the romulan ship has:
less hull....as i said.....
more crew, which is bad due to more crew causing slow hull heal.
more turn rate (does not DIRECTLY affect survivability.)
+1 tac console for more DPS.
less engineering slots which means less armor and in turn less resists...
AND the -40 power which is really a -10 to each system.
so that +15 to weapons, is REALLY a +5, and a -10 to sheilds means weaker performing shields, which means that sheild mod of .99 isnt really .99, it is more like a .8
The ships are comparable because of their overall stats. The Ar'kif has 550 less base hull, but it gains +1 base turn rate. That is an equal tradeoff. +15 weapon power isn't base power because it is added after the base is calculated.
now the valdore console does now "define" the faction. honestly, battle cloak does. But the issue if is the valdore console and as a related result of the issue, shield effectiveness.
Romulan shield, because if the negative power will always perform worst than fed/kdf ships but because romulan ship spend a lot of time cloaked or are vapers who dont really need sheild 100% of the time, this is overlooked. It is only really seen when trying to tank, which most romulans do not do because of cloak. why tank when you can cloak? but if you DO try to tank, or are forced to tank because of a disabled cloak, you will see, romulan sheilds are not the same has the others and they drop fast. the valdore console is ment to aid in this.
Again. video yourself trying to tank WITHOUT the valdore console and see if you can. provide some data to support your point. if not you, SOMEONE PLEASE.
The power bonus is minor to the point where it can be completely ignored. Tanking on a Romulan character isn't a problem at all. I've been running a Romulan Dyson Destroyer from the Anniversary with dual Transfer Shield Strength and dual Tactical Team and I have no trouble at all keeping that ship alive. The ship is set up as a traditional Science Vessel torpedo boat and has no use for the Valdore console. In truth, the ships that actually benefit from the Valdore Console the most have Commander Tactical bridge officer seating and/or Beam Fire at Will.
In PvE scimitars/Tac are tanking like a Galaxy class
Borg set and valdor console.........win win win
The Arkif and DD can do it as well
OP healing
OP firepower
It makes the elite STFs a joke with these ships in the team its like a happy farmer foundry mission not a stf
-40 power isnt even a speed bump
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
The fact that this consoles is op is beyond arguing imv. But because it is so clearly so, its WAD. Hence we need another OP toy to offset its healing. How about a 5s +30% Bonus Damage per active hull heal.
The console is even affecting PvE. There is one single mission, CE, where you can win by being a healer. You could argue about if they are really helpful in this mission, but I still like the idea as we have already sb24 and minefield for the damage dealers like me.
But the valdore console does make this mission into another dps race as even the sensless full shield healing procs are counted as healing.
Of course, winning this mission does not give you that great prizes most of the time. But I would like to see more diversity in this game.
This is the same old tired thing of PVPers always crying nerf. Oh how much I hate them.
This console has a good healing potential. But of course, pvpers ALWAYS ignore some issues, even if others bring them up, they ignore it. They ignore it because it doesnt support their arguments.
These issues:
-Low proc chance. Its just a 2.5% chance.
-Healing done to full shields. This console usually procs when your shields are full. Not useful there.
Of course, there are a few fixes. Like why not disable Doffs, C-store consoles and such for PVP only?
Or why not even give players pre-built ships for PVP, finely balanced by the devs. That would be balanced, but oh the crying it would bring.
Another good solution would be making the console activate with all attacks, but only do a minor healing.
Currently it has 2.5% chance to heal for 200% damage.
Why not have it heal 100% chance for 5% damage dealt?
2.5x200=500, and 100x5=500 so it keeps the same healing ratio.
That would make it way more reliable. Also, I'm fine with KDF and FEds getting the Valdore console, IF Feds and Fed romulans get a c-store ship with Plasmonic leech, so that it doesnt cost your firstborn's soul on the exchange.
Tl,DR , PVPers blaming the valdore console AGAIN for the OPness of FAW and A2B. PVPers as usual, sad.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
I am getting a little tired of the endless crying about how things need to be nerfed:
It's always been a trip, imho, that the folks pointing out that something may not be working as intended are the folks that are crying. It's not the torrent of folks that come forth to defend something as being absolutely necessary. It's not the stream of folks that come forth to say those people simply need to learn to play or to adapt. It's not the flood of folks that come forth to claim that countless fixes/tweaks were made because of an extremely small part of the playerbase that partakes in a very small aspect of the game.
Torrent. Stream. Flood.
Got the imagery?
Yeah, I am not getting tired of the endless crying from those folks - I got tired of it long ago.
There are people that are interested in having a balanced game. There are people that want to utilize every broken and not working as intended mechanic that they can find.
Why you and others think being part of the latter group makes you special...is something that I might be able to understand at a cold intellectual level...but it is not something that I have ever really been able to understand in general. How small must a person be - how flimsy of an ego - what did life to do to them...that they ended up like that? You can't help but feel sorry for them on some level.
Seriously, how about learning to overcome these abilities and change your ship/build/powers to do so, instead of having cryptic nerf the ability so your ship/build is no longer obsolete.
Do people not even bother reading some of the things they post? I mean, seriously, it is like a teenager or toddler having a tantrum at times...where their parents might ask them what they said, did they even think about or listen to what they were saying, and the sort.
So like, seriously, how about learning to overcome having to use these abilities? I mean, does what you say simply not apply to you? Are there not folks that are getting along without certain things...because they actually have learned or already knew how to get along without them?
I mean, what you said there was definitely a trip in that "did you even read that" - but it's no where near the common one that an extremely small group of players in a minor part of the game are the folks bringing around massive changes to PvE. Do they even read that? It's like they are completely unable to process that a change to something that affects PvE and the majority of the playerbase...may simply have been done because the majority of the game is PvE and the majority of players do PvE.
That the devs have even pointed this out - has never helped - these folks will go on blabbering their delusions...because they need a scapegoat being unable to accept that the issue is not with others, but that the issue rests squarely on themselves.
Lastly, nerfing the Valore is nothing but silliness, all you will do is hurt most of the player base, and the console will become unusable--thus Cryptic will not make anymore sales of that ship. Capping it is silly too--again, it will hurt sales.
Of course, a post such as yours could not be complete without the doom angle - could it?
"Oh noes, if you fix something - that'll be the end of STO - the game will go under and everybody will suffer. Is that what you want? Doom?"
I had to hunt down some Excedrin for the massively epic /facepalm from reading that. Seriously...it's not meant to be insulting...but the post basically read like a teenage girl having a meltdown and blubbering about her parents not letting her go to a party.
"I'm tired of your rules..."
"You don't understand..."
"It's the end of the world..."
If it weren't so sad, it would be so damn funny...
I wonder whether there could have been an oversight when calculating what kind of proc chance and healing values are sensible for the console. Shield heals usually say "heals each facing for TRIBBLE", which means that the true total shield healing is 4 times the value TRIBBLE because of the 4 facings (and due to TT shields are almost always taking damage on all sides so that these heals aren't wasted). Did whoever designed the ability take this into account?
With regards to the Valdore console "heals for 200% of the attack value" actually means "heals for 800% of the attack value" when one adds up all facings.
Another thought: According to its description this console ("Gives all of your Energy Weapon attacks a 2.5% chance to heal your shields for 200% of the damage they deal. This ability is always on.") it sounds as if the console might base its healing on the raw damage, not the hull damage; can anyone confirm this? If this is really the case, then changing it from raw damage to hull damage could balance it in PVP and let PVE remain almost unchanged due to the very different hull/shield/raw damage profiles between PVP and PVE.
I agree with virusdancer. Some people set up PvPers as scape goat that they are ruining PvE, despite being such a minority. We know they are the minority, so the logical conclusion is that cryptic would not bother changing much for them - but they will bother if it affects PvE.
And the usual "tactic" of saying "if you nerf that, the game is doomed for sure". The game is doomed for sure in thousands of ways by the posts in this forum, and it has been around since Feburary 2010, and it was alreayd doomed back then, it's still around, and has steadily grown in content and features. You can complain about stuff they do for all kinds of reason, but generally not it's chance for survival. If you resort to that, you just show that you have no real argument.
The people that claim that the Romulan ships are so fragile and energy-starved that they need this console to last against Fed and KDF vessels, they at least try to make an argument that one can consider, even if it ultimately may not stand up to scrutiny.
Another thought: According to its description this console ("Gives all of your Energy Weapon attacks a 2.5% chance to heal your shields for 200% of the damage they deal. This ability is always on.") it sounds as if the console might base its healing on the raw damage, not the hull damage; can anyone confirm this? If this is really the case, then changing it from raw damage to hull damage could balance it in PVP and let PVE remain almost unchanged due to the very different hull/shield/raw damage profiles between PVP and PVE.
That would certainly make a serious difference, and also dispel some of the arguments heard here - smeone said the problem was that people did create too much DPS, and turning that into healing just pointed out how broken that DPS is in the first plac. But the DPS doesn't normally exist in a vacuum - it is met with shield and hull resistances. Damage before resistances must naturally be much higher than healing values normally, otherwise you would not have any hope of beating up a hardened and healing target.
But how would we test this effectively? The 2.5 % proc requires a bit of shooting to trigger, and a ship without resistances will likely not survive that long enough...
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
In PvE scimitars/Tac are tanking like a Galaxy class
Borg set and valdor console.........win win win
The Arkif and DD can do it as well
OP healing
OP firepower
It makes the elite STFs a joke with these ships in the team its like a happy farmer foundry mission not a stf
-40 power isnt even a speed bump
If you think romulans make stfs a joke you need to rethink your fed builds. Sure 5 scimitars can clear an ISE in 60 seconds, but 5 fed avengers or even fleet assault cruisers could do it in 90-120 seconds easy. Its relatively easy to pull 30-40k dps out of a fed, at which point all content becomes a joke.
Craptics crappy content design has nothing to do with romulans, valdore consoles, scimitars, or anything else you mention. They just like to build TRIBBLE for there "average" player who doesn't have a clue how to play this game.
If it weren't so sad, it would be so damn funny...
I think you just made my day, because that was a hilarious comparison!
On topic: just cap the darn thing like other heals have been capped. It could still be useful to every Rommy, but would be much less ridiculous when combined with overly ridiculous DPS (50k +).
Or give it to every faction. Klinks and Feddies have to "share" their technology with their Romulan allies; why shouldn't Rommys be required to do the same?
Those are both reasonable options. Any PvE hero or PvPer who thinks that would make it useless is simply one who likes any exploit available and has no real care for any balance within the game. (And without it they'd probably think the Borg got magically OP again, too, and call for a nerf on the damage). :rolleyes:
But from what I've read in so many posts, many don't care, they just want the most OP exploits available simply to brag about numbers and show off their lack of creativity and inability to function without said exploits.
We're evaluating situations in which the Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator console's effectiveness may be too high. We're still gathering data on its effectiveness, and how much of its healing is overhealing vs. effective healing, so I don't have any concrete plans to share with you since our plan of action will depend on the extent to which it performs in our testing. However, we just wanted to let you know that we are looking at the console and may try to make it less "swingy" if necessary - boosting the theoretical minimum performance and reining in the theoretical maximum performance - if the data supports making that change.
...which was from June of last year.
Later in June of last year, we had the following from the patch notes...
The Shield Adaptive Frequency Generator on the Valdore has been tuned so it no longer outpaces its intended healing rate.
...which based on the thread looking for feedback that Hawk created, their data mining, and then the following patch notes that it had been tweaked - well, suggests that they have indeed looked at it and they were happy with where they took it. That the healing that it does was intended.
Note I said was intended, eh? Because the patch notes aren't an argument for it working as intended today. Look at the damage back then compared to the damage now. Thus, it creates the potential argument for a cap - based on the console healing at the damage levels that existed in June 2013 rather than they exist as of now.
It would be up to Cryptic, likely Hawk, to state whether the healing as intended was based on damage at the time or if the healing as intended is based on how damage will eventually infinitely scale. Given the change to the Reputation System based on scaling out in the future, I'd be curious to see what Cryptic has to say on the matter...
Comments
reply in red sir.
the fact is, the console is fine. if nerfed, it will take away any reason, other than vaping, to take a rom into pvp. because that is all they will be good for. hell, its nearly that way now..... Romulan ships other than the scim, tvaro and the arkif are rare if even in pvp. and only one of those can tank...KINDA. and even then, it NEEDS the valdore console to survive. the other two have either such weak hull, or weak shields....or both, that all they can do is vape. never brawl or tank.
The valdore console has no weight in the reason why romulans are -40.
It is an option that is so absurdly good that you would be a fool not to take it. When an optional item becomes a must have, it is broken...the plasmonic leech has been double nerfed and still is a staple. The 2p borg has been double(triple perhaps?) nerfed and we have players that are still running it, more on this later.
If I can take my Plesh brek into pvp and survive/kill others. I sure as hell can bring the dd, the tank of the Romulan flotilla, in and run it as a tanky alpha striker.
The valdore is in the same realm as the original borg 2p set. Passive healing is an incredible bonus that requires many balancing passes to get right. The valdore hasn't seen any...it's time for what's due.
And for the record, the plasmonic leech should not be considered for the -40 penalty either.
The 2 reasons that romulans get a -40 penalty is due to battle cloak and singularity powers...that's it. To argue it any other way is shortsighted at best
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
The bottom line is, it rarely activates when you actually need heals, and when you do need heals, it's not anywhere close to enough to keep you alive. No change in outcome. The only thing that needs fixing is making healing full shield not count in pvp endgame screen, changing anything to the console itself will unbalance one of the few well balanced consoles in game.
i can get it to deal damage in spite of itself, but its not nearly as durable as a proper cruiser, i tend to sing jump and evasive as soon as i get focused on. of all the tac cruisers it can take the attention the least long, but its got unparalleled escape ability compared to any other cruiser. a lot of that has to do with the lack of 2 LT level eng stations, and having to waist a LTC slot on AtB. the stong tac and sci though makes for interesting builds. the scimitar is actually more durable, but no ship has a tendency to be set up more poorly then the scimitar.
none of the warbirds are built to be visible more often then cloaked, their optimization simply runs counter with beam boat builds. but the valdor console helps make up for the lack of shield power, and lets it tank beter in certain situations. only really on a beam boat warbird or when your in a dogfight situation though. it wont help you when your running, it procs on weapon hits. and its based on a certain hit, not your dps.
see red.....
Another silly noob argument....
Healing numbers are meaningless, they include heals applied at 100% shields which do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The overwhelming bulk of the Valdore heals fall into this category.
The Valdore console has ALREADY been nerfed, anymore and it's useless, particularly for lower dps players.
Also, low romulan system power is directly relevant to the need for this console - without the abilitiy to maintain resonable levels of shield power romulans have crappy shield resistance and are not viable for PVP builds that need to tank spike damage.
The valdore console(im including the plasmonic leech) are not means to the end result of romulan ships having -40 energy.
The help offset the inherent issue. But you can't say they are the voltron that make up romulan ships.
If your so against the nerfing...be for the sharing
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I don't think anyone on our side is against sharing, we don't care who has it, we just despise PvPers and there constant calls for nerfing of anything they don't like.
I would also like to share built in battle cloaks and superior operative boffs, or a reasonable equivalent, for the other factions. But stuff like that would actually make the game more enjoyable and ofcourse that is against company policy.
But, I am getting a little tired of the endless crying about how things need to be nerfed:
1. Nerf Borg 2-set
2. Nerf Aux to Batt
3. Nerf FAW
4. Nerf Plasmonic Leech
6. Nerf Phasers
7. Nerf Beam Overload
8. Nerf Double Tap
9. Now, Nerf Valdore
Seriously, how about learning to overcome these abilities and change your ship/build/powers to do so, instead of having cryptic nerf the ability so your ship/build is no longer obsolete. Look, we hate Feedback Pulse--with our dps, its like instant death to us. But, the first thing that came to my mind was how to avoid it or beat it--my instinct was not to go run to the forums and get Cryptic to nerf it.
Anyway, here is the video of the 5v7 match from earlier. We only had 2 faw scimi's, 1 cannon scimi, 1 wells, and a palisade (or a bastion, I get those 2 mixed up):
http://www.twitch.tv/ryansto/c/4247844
I think we won it 30-6. So maybe it's not quite FAW/Valdores/Scimis that are the problem--it might just be the pilots. And we didn't have much issue busting through their Scimi's with their Valdores.
Lastly, nerfing the Valore is nothing but silliness, all you will do is hurt most of the player base, and the console will become unusable--thus Cryptic will not make anymore sales of that ship. Capping it is silly too--again, it will hurt sales.
DPS Channels / League Info (STO Forums)
The only problems with the console, is it records heals, when no heal can technically be applied, and anything that is considered a form of attack can set it off, and not just energy weapons.
The console is fine, it is the bugged mechanics that follow with it, that needs fixing.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The D'Deridex has a very powerful setup capable of running two copies of Transfer Shield Strength, an EPtX chain, and an Aux2X chain. This is all without using the Lt. Commander Tactical station for offensive capabilities.
Romulans are also capable of running full Human crews.
Blatantly false; compare the Fleet Dhelan Warbird Retrofit to the Fleet Advanced Escort. Identical in many ways, but the Dhelan has superior inertia, shield strength, and a universal Lt. slot instead of Lt. Tactical.
The -10 all power levels is intended to balance out Romulan Battle Cloak and Singularity abilities. This is the only penalty Romulans have, but they obtain what is effectively a commander Science Station in return. The penalty is a joke that is easily overcome.
The Valdore console isn't an anti vaper console and cannot be used at such. The Valdore console is for fighting visible targets. This makes the console extremely overpowered against Starfleet and Klingon ships that cannot cloak in combat or at all. Plenty of Romulan ships can tank a vaper with or without the console. Anything with RSP + TT usually won't die to a vaper attack.
You are trying to say that Science can counter the Valdore console, but in truth it cannot at the moment. Science debuffs are so easily stripped by that duty officer, science team, and engineering team. You are giving a 1v2 situation, but all PvP matches are 5v5. There are always more cleanses than debuff abilities. Broken debuff cleanses aside, the Valdore console is superior to any other shield healing console in the entire game.
A single console alone should never define a faction. There is a big problem if the only reason to fly a Romulan Warbird is to exploit a console that is overpowered in terms of healing. The Scimitar wouldn't need the Valdore console if player ran a decent number of defensive abilities. The Ar'kif is just a Federation Fleet Heavy Escort Carrier with Battle Cloak and Singularity abilities. If you can't tank in an Ar'kif without the Valdore console, then there is something wrong with your build. The T'Varo is a Romulan Warbird Raider, can fire while cloaked, and should be used accordingly. Few if any vapers use the Valdore console for vaper runs. I see plenty of other Romulan ships in PvP all the time.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
red sir......
But I think you need to be careful with the colours. In the chart the Rom T4 Rep proc and the sci console proc have very similar colours. The large(r) greenish band is the Rom T4.
I was actually thinking more along the lines of Inverted Tractor Beam Repulsors II + Eject Warp Plasma with Attack Pattern Omega I + Alpha and Fire at Will blazing. Toss on some particle generators with +Pla for more tactical consoles or +HuH or +ShH for more healing.
I'd slot EPtS1 + Aux2Damp + EPtS3 + RSP3. Use a Matter/Anti-Matter Specialist for 76.6% uptime on Auxiliary to Battery, use a Fabrication Engineer for ~25 seconds on Reverse Shield Polarity. Throw on the standard Hazard Emitters I + Transfer Shield Strength II with 2x Tactical Team I and you still have a universal ensign slot for Engineering Team I, Science Team I, or another Hazard Emitters/Transfer Shield Strength. You'd be able to tank well with that setup without popping out a Valdore console. Running attack from my posts two comments up and it won't be hard to take a little focus fire now and again. I'd make such a video myself, but I don't have any Romulan C-store ships.
It is actually possible to get a full Human crew via the Tier IV Marauder bridge officers.
Well, that analogy isn't exactly accurate because Windows XP is great and Windows 8 is terrible. The Fleet Advanced Escort is far from obsolete, but an ensign universal would serve it well.
This isn't technically correct. Romulan ships have 40 less base power (160 instead of 200). They aren't penalized on maximum power and are capable of reaching 125 maximum power. They are also capable of setting shield power settings to 50 just like a federation or klingon starship. However, the -40 base power starts to fade when you factor in Starship Warp Core Efficiency. Romulans will get more out of this stat because two of their subsystems will be lower. There are numerous pieces of ship gear, consoles, duty officers, and bridge officers capable of substantially increasing a starship's power levels. Not to mention a fleet level singularity core will decrease the power penalty from -40 to -5 if the player doesn't use any of their singularity abilities (for those claiming they are weak/useless).
Plasma Shockwave is an AoE Plasma DoT that will destroy all fighters, mines, and high yield torpedoes in 5km. It will also deal significant plasma damage to enemy hulls with 100% shield bypass. Quantum Absorption will make the Romulan ship pseudo immune to bleedthrough while providing a heal equivalent to Transfer Shield Strength II for an extended duration. Singularity Jump will break enemy target lock on your ship, decrease their weapon accuracy, and pull them inward while dealing damage. Warp Shadows grants perfect stealth for several seconds as well as fake copies of your ship in the form of spam. Lastly, Singularity Overcharge enhances energy weapons for a duration.
2x Energy Siphon (usually II + III), Emergency Power to Shields + Emergency Power to Engines, Plasmonic Leech, and +25 all power levels warp core engineer with EPtX. Run 3-5 flow capacitor consoles and call me in the morning.
Reverse Shield Polarity is quite powerful due to the Fabrication Engineer that adds +8 seconds to the reverse shield polarity timer. It is possible to use Reverse Shield Polarity for 18-25 seconds with a 35-42 second cooldown after expiration.
This is exactly the point, the Valdore console shouldn't increase exponentially in strength as a ship's outgoing damage increases. A cap on the maximum shield healing and frequency of the shield healing is what really needs to happen. This won't have much of an impact on the average user, but it would stop 20k+ DPS scimitars from becoming immortal from a single console.
The ships are comparable because of their overall stats. The Ar'kif has 550 less base hull, but it gains +1 base turn rate. That is an equal tradeoff. +15 weapon power isn't base power because it is added after the base is calculated.
The power bonus is minor to the point where it can be completely ignored. Tanking on a Romulan character isn't a problem at all. I've been running a Romulan Dyson Destroyer from the Anniversary with dual Transfer Shield Strength and dual Tactical Team and I have no trouble at all keeping that ship alive. The ship is set up as a traditional Science Vessel torpedo boat and has no use for the Valdore console. In truth, the ships that actually benefit from the Valdore Console the most have Commander Tactical bridge officer seating and/or Beam Fire at Will.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Borg set and valdor console.........win win win
The Arkif and DD can do it as well
OP healing
OP firepower
It makes the elite STFs a joke with these ships in the team its like a happy farmer foundry mission not a stf
-40 power isnt even a speed bump
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Fear the engineers when they bring MW matey
....
/sarcasm
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
But the valdore console does make this mission into another dps race as even the sensless full shield healing procs are counted as healing.
Of course, winning this mission does not give you that great prizes most of the time. But I would like to see more diversity in this game.
This console has a good healing potential. But of course, pvpers ALWAYS ignore some issues, even if others bring them up, they ignore it. They ignore it because it doesnt support their arguments.
These issues:
-Low proc chance. Its just a 2.5% chance.
-Healing done to full shields. This console usually procs when your shields are full. Not useful there.
Of course, there are a few fixes. Like why not disable Doffs, C-store consoles and such for PVP only?
Or why not even give players pre-built ships for PVP, finely balanced by the devs. That would be balanced, but oh the crying it would bring.
Another good solution would be making the console activate with all attacks, but only do a minor healing.
Currently it has 2.5% chance to heal for 200% damage.
Why not have it heal 100% chance for 5% damage dealt?
2.5x200=500, and 100x5=500 so it keeps the same healing ratio.
That would make it way more reliable. Also, I'm fine with KDF and FEds getting the Valdore console, IF Feds and Fed romulans get a c-store ship with Plasmonic leech, so that it doesnt cost your firstborn's soul on the exchange.
Tl,DR , PVPers blaming the valdore console AGAIN for the OPness of FAW and A2B. PVPers as usual, sad.
It's always been a trip, imho, that the folks pointing out that something may not be working as intended are the folks that are crying. It's not the torrent of folks that come forth to defend something as being absolutely necessary. It's not the stream of folks that come forth to say those people simply need to learn to play or to adapt. It's not the flood of folks that come forth to claim that countless fixes/tweaks were made because of an extremely small part of the playerbase that partakes in a very small aspect of the game.
Torrent. Stream. Flood.
Got the imagery?
Yeah, I am not getting tired of the endless crying from those folks - I got tired of it long ago.
There are people that are interested in having a balanced game. There are people that want to utilize every broken and not working as intended mechanic that they can find.
Why you and others think being part of the latter group makes you special...is something that I might be able to understand at a cold intellectual level...but it is not something that I have ever really been able to understand in general. How small must a person be - how flimsy of an ego - what did life to do to them...that they ended up like that? You can't help but feel sorry for them on some level.
Do people not even bother reading some of the things they post? I mean, seriously, it is like a teenager or toddler having a tantrum at times...where their parents might ask them what they said, did they even think about or listen to what they were saying, and the sort.
So like, seriously, how about learning to overcome having to use these abilities? I mean, does what you say simply not apply to you? Are there not folks that are getting along without certain things...because they actually have learned or already knew how to get along without them?
I mean, what you said there was definitely a trip in that "did you even read that" - but it's no where near the common one that an extremely small group of players in a minor part of the game are the folks bringing around massive changes to PvE. Do they even read that? It's like they are completely unable to process that a change to something that affects PvE and the majority of the playerbase...may simply have been done because the majority of the game is PvE and the majority of players do PvE.
That the devs have even pointed this out - has never helped - these folks will go on blabbering their delusions...because they need a scapegoat being unable to accept that the issue is not with others, but that the issue rests squarely on themselves.
Of course, a post such as yours could not be complete without the doom angle - could it?
"Oh noes, if you fix something - that'll be the end of STO - the game will go under and everybody will suffer. Is that what you want? Doom?"
I had to hunt down some Excedrin for the massively epic /facepalm from reading that. Seriously...it's not meant to be insulting...but the post basically read like a teenage girl having a meltdown and blubbering about her parents not letting her go to a party.
"I'm tired of your rules..."
"You don't understand..."
"It's the end of the world..."
If it weren't so sad, it would be so damn funny...
Another thought: According to its description this console ("Gives all of your Energy Weapon attacks a 2.5% chance to heal your shields for 200% of the damage they deal. This ability is always on.") it sounds as if the console might base its healing on the raw damage, not the hull damage; can anyone confirm this? If this is really the case, then changing it from raw damage to hull damage could balance it in PVP and let PVE remain almost unchanged due to the very different hull/shield/raw damage profiles between PVP and PVE.
And the usual "tactic" of saying "if you nerf that, the game is doomed for sure". The game is doomed for sure in thousands of ways by the posts in this forum, and it has been around since Feburary 2010, and it was alreayd doomed back then, it's still around, and has steadily grown in content and features. You can complain about stuff they do for all kinds of reason, but generally not it's chance for survival. If you resort to that, you just show that you have no real argument.
The people that claim that the Romulan ships are so fragile and energy-starved that they need this console to last against Fed and KDF vessels, they at least try to make an argument that one can consider, even if it ultimately may not stand up to scrutiny.
That would certainly make a serious difference, and also dispel some of the arguments heard here - smeone said the problem was that people did create too much DPS, and turning that into healing just pointed out how broken that DPS is in the first plac. But the DPS doesn't normally exist in a vacuum - it is met with shield and hull resistances. Damage before resistances must naturally be much higher than healing values normally, otherwise you would not have any hope of beating up a hardened and healing target.
But how would we test this effectively? The 2.5 % proc requires a bit of shooting to trigger, and a ship without resistances will likely not survive that long enough...
If you think romulans make stfs a joke you need to rethink your fed builds. Sure 5 scimitars can clear an ISE in 60 seconds, but 5 fed avengers or even fleet assault cruisers could do it in 90-120 seconds easy. Its relatively easy to pull 30-40k dps out of a fed, at which point all content becomes a joke.
Craptics crappy content design has nothing to do with romulans, valdore consoles, scimitars, or anything else you mention. They just like to build TRIBBLE for there "average" player who doesn't have a clue how to play this game.
borg set and valdore consoles are not OP. That's not the problem. The PROBLEM is content that is too easy.
When Fed toons can pull 40-50K dps all STFs are a joke.... romulan or not romulan DOES NOT MATTER.
Average damage per shot (for Valdore console users) seems to be ~1700 raw and ~360 hull.
This indicates that the healing is indeed based on raw damage, not hull damage.
I think you just made my day, because that was a hilarious comparison!
On topic: just cap the darn thing like other heals have been capped. It could still be useful to every Rommy, but would be much less ridiculous when combined with overly ridiculous DPS (50k +).
Or give it to every faction. Klinks and Feddies have to "share" their technology with their Romulan allies; why shouldn't Rommys be required to do the same?
Those are both reasonable options. Any PvE hero or PvPer who thinks that would make it useless is simply one who likes any exploit available and has no real care for any balance within the game. (And without it they'd probably think the Borg got magically OP again, too, and call for a nerf on the damage). :rolleyes:
But from what I've read in so many posts, many don't care, they just want the most OP exploits available simply to brag about numbers and show off their lack of creativity and inability to function without said exploits.
Like VM said, it really is sad...
...which was from June of last year.
Later in June of last year, we had the following from the patch notes...
...which based on the thread looking for feedback that Hawk created, their data mining, and then the following patch notes that it had been tweaked - well, suggests that they have indeed looked at it and they were happy with where they took it. That the healing that it does was intended.
Note I said was intended, eh? Because the patch notes aren't an argument for it working as intended today. Look at the damage back then compared to the damage now. Thus, it creates the potential argument for a cap - based on the console healing at the damage levels that existed in June 2013 rather than they exist as of now.
It would be up to Cryptic, likely Hawk, to state whether the healing as intended was based on damage at the time or if the healing as intended is based on how damage will eventually infinitely scale. Given the change to the Reputation System based on scaling out in the future, I'd be curious to see what Cryptic has to say on the matter...