Another thought: Using a lockout timer to reduce the healing would probably be a bad idea because it would create a situation where there is sufficient time between procs to actually take shield damage and thus fully utilise the next heal after the lockout ends and minimise the amount of overhealing.
Hrmm, doing a quick search pulled up the following...
...which was from June of last year.
Later in June of last year, we had the following from the patch notes...
...which based on the thread looking for feedback that Hawk created, their data mining, and then the following patch notes that it had been tweaked - well, suggests that they have indeed looked at it and they were happy with where they took it. That the healing that it does was intended.
Note I said was intended, eh? Because the patch notes aren't an argument for it working as intended today. Look at the damage back then compared to the damage now. Thus, it creates the potential argument for a cap - based on the console healing at the damage levels that existed in June 2013 rather than they exist as of now.
It would be up to Cryptic, likely Hawk, to state whether the healing as intended was based on damage at the time or if the healing as intended is based on how damage will eventually infinitely scale. Given the change to the Reputation System based on scaling out in the future, I'd be curious to see what Cryptic has to say on the matter...
...but....but ....you don't underSTAAAAND....:mad::mad::mad:
Friendship is magic
Another thought: Using a lockout timer to reduce the healing would probably be a bad idea because it would create a situation where there is sufficient time between procs to actually take shield damage and thus fully utilise the next heal after the lockout ends and minimise the amount of overhealing.
A lockout would also create the issue that exists with several abilities/items/etc sporting a lockout period - the sheer RNG swings that it would create.
Somebody using a mix of DBB, DHCs, Turrets - could lock themselves out of the larger heals from the DBB or DHCs because of a plink-plink from the Turrets.
The games already got far too many, imho, extreme swings like tied into RNG without there being another one added...
Like Hawk said in that post I quoted...they wanted to make it less "swingy", taking a look at the minimums and maximums. It's just a question, imho, of whether they took into account the growth of damage while making their changes...or...if it was just a change based on how things were at the time.
Hrmm, doing a quick search pulled up the following...
...which was from June of last year.
Later in June of last year, we had the following from the patch notes...
...which based on the thread looking for feedback that Hawk created, their data mining, and then the following patch notes that it had been tweaked - well, suggests that they have indeed looked at it and they were happy with where they took it. That the healing that it does was intended.
Note I said was intended, eh? Because the patch notes aren't an argument for it working as intended today. Look at the damage back then compared to the damage now. Thus, it creates the potential argument for a cap - based on the console healing at the damage levels that existed in June 2013 rather than they exist as of now.
It would be up to Cryptic, likely Hawk, to state whether the healing as intended was based on damage at the time or if the healing as intended is based on how damage will eventually infinitely scale. Given the change to the Reputation System based on scaling out in the future, I'd be curious to see what Cryptic has to say on the matter...
Its pretty easy to explain: We, who know how to dps, build ships etc. are an absolute minority. Go into any STF,look at you teammates and do some math. I am pretty sure, those 4 could play 24 hours a day and wouldnt get out the heal we get in 5 minutes.
You simply cant balance something for the top 10% of playerbase. If you do, then not only most of them wouldnt use it anymore (I dont use it on my scim, doesnt give me dps and I dont need it heal to stay alive), but it would be obsolete ("for a long time before the final patch comes") for 90% of the playerbase.
And this 90% playerbase is the one that pays for things, while the top 10% know how to get zen-stuff free.
So you have data on the one hand,saying its in line, and money from the ppl who buy the console. So what do you do? Correct, nothing
That it needs a nerf for us 10% isnt really a question, but the rammifications must be taken into account.
Its pretty easy to explain: We, who know how to dps, build ships etc. are an absolute minority. Go into any STF,look at you teammates and do some math. I am pretty sure, those 4 could play 24 hours a day and wouldnt get out the heal we get in 5 minutes.
You simply cant balance something for the top 10% of playerbase. If you do, then not only most of them wouldnt use it anymore (I dont use it on my scim, doesnt give me dps and I dont need it heal to stay alive), but it would be obsolete ("for a long time before the final patch comes") for 90% of the playerbase.
And this 90% playerbase is the one that pays for things, while the top 10% know how to get zen-stuff free.
So you have data on the one hand,saying its in line, and money from the ppl who buy the console. So what do you do? Correct, nothing
That it needs a nerf for us 10% isnt really a question, but the rammifications must be taken into account.
But that's the thing - that's where a "cap" instead of a "base" tweak would take that into consideration. It would be the "nerf" for that 10%, while the other 90% would likely not even notice.
It wouldn't be the first time that Cryptic ran with a diminishing returns/limit set on something. That as began to reach a certain point, that it returned less. As most folks are merrily bouncing around their day to day, they wouldn't be dancing anywhere near any severe diminished/limited returns and would be as fine as they were before the change.
It's just about tackling potential extremes, imho - which again, imho, can be done without affecting the vast majority of the playerbase.
Do we know off hand how it works for other "leech heals" and the like?
Elite Phasers?
3pc Solanae?
Likewise, what about "reflects" - are they doing damage based on resisted or raw damage?
What's the overall precedent/way of doing things that Cryptic has established?
Actually there is a Talshiar lockbox energy weapons doff, which works like the valdore console, somehow he seems to be a lot weaker, but since the game keeps crashing on me every 5 min, thats all i got atm. Should be easy enough to find out though, the doffs are cheap.
Actually there is a Talshiar lockbox energy weapons doff, which works like the valdore console, somehow he seems to be a lot weaker, but since the game keeps crashing on me every 5 min, thats all i got atm. Should be easy enough to find out though, the doffs are cheap.
Hrmm, I know there's the +Shield Power EWO/PWO DOFFs that boost shield damage reduction and shield regeneration from boosting the shield power...but an actual heal DOFF? Hrmm...
I might be mixing them up then. I still think that this would be a good point of comparison though. OP or not, if rommies have valdore console, and FED/KDF have "voldore" doff that might be a good trade off. Not saying that it is smart design, but maybe in line with what cryptic is willing to invest.
Of course these should lock each other out....
Opportunity cost of between 1-3 doff slots is close enough for me.
I might be mixing them up then. I still think that this would be a good point of comparison though. OP or not, if rommies have valdore console, and FED/KDF have "voldore" doff that might be a good trade off. Not saying that it is smart design, but maybe in line with what cryptic is willing to invest.
Of course these should lock each other out....
Opportunity cost of between 1-3 doff slots is close enough for me.
please...oh please....not another OP diff that will hit the exchange and cost the price of children souls.......
Another thought: According to its description this console ("Gives all of your Energy Weapon attacks a 2.5% chance to heal your shields for 200% of the damage they deal. This ability is always on.") it sounds as if the console might base its healing on the raw damage, not the hull damage; can anyone confirm this? If this is really the case, then changing it from raw damage to hull damage could balance it in PVP and let PVE remain almost unchanged due to the very different hull/shield/raw damage profiles between PVP and PVE.
This would make it useless with how shields can sty up as long as they do. most people in pvp die while sheilds are still up, cooked in their shells. if your suggestion is follow, the only thing that will set of the valdore console is bleedthrough.....and that value is so small the resulting shield heal would be useless....
This is the same old tired thing of PVPers always crying nerf. Oh how much I hate them.
This console has a good healing potential. But of course, pvpers ALWAYS ignore some issues, even if others bring them up, they ignore it. They ignore it because it doesnt support their arguments.
These issues:
-Low proc chance. Its just a 2.5% chance.
-Healing done to full shields. This console usually procs when your shields are full. Not useful there.
Of course, there are a few fixes. Like why not disable Doffs, C-store consoles and such for PVP only?
Or why not even give players pre-built ships for PVP, finely balanced by the devs. That would be balanced, but oh the crying it would bring.
Another good solution would be making the console activate with all attacks, but only do a minor healing.
Currently it has 2.5% chance to heal for 200% damage.
Why not have it heal 100% chance for 5% damage dealt?
2.5x200=500, and 100x5=500 so it keeps the same healing ratio.
That would make it way more reliable. Also, I'm fine with KDF and FEds getting the Valdore console, IF Feds and Fed romulans get a c-store ship with Plasmonic leech, so that it doesnt cost your firstborn's soul on the exchange.
Tl,DR , PVPers blaming the valdore console AGAIN for the OPness of FAW and A2B. PVPers as usual, sad.
NO, NO, NO. feds and kdf DO NOT need the valdore console. they can tank super wel with out it. if they have it, fed/kdf ship WILL BE unkillable.
again, my avenger tanks GOOD. only a vaper can kill me and when then i have to not know he is coming which means, he only gets me ONCE.
The console is even affecting PvE. There is one single mission, CE, where you can win by being a healer. You could argue about if they are really helpful in this mission, but I still like the idea as we have already sb24 and minefield for the damage dealers like me.
But the valdore console does make this mission into another dps race as even the sensless full shield healing procs are counted as healing.
Of course, winning this mission does not give you that great prizes most of the time. But I would like to see more diversity in this game.
T1 connies win ESTF........ you your reasoning behind calling the valdore console broken is even slighty based on pve....youre argument holds no water.
If you like sliding, then the Scimitar is a good ship. However, if you like ships such as an Avenger, then sliding is not an enjoyable experience.
and i dont. i HATE the scimitar. it is too big, too ugly, too ungraceful looking, and it slides. it not even romulan, its reman....
I was actually thinking more along the lines of Inverted Tractor Beam Repulsors II + Eject Warp Plasma with Attack Pattern Omega I + Alpha and Fire at Will blazing. Toss on some particle generators with +Pla for more tactical consoles or +HuH or +ShH for more healing.
not bad.....
I'd slot EPtS1 + Aux2Damp + EPtS3 + RSP3. Use a Matter/Anti-Matter Specialist for 76.6% uptime on Auxiliary to Battery, use a Fabrication Engineer for ~25 seconds on Reverse Shield Polarity. Throw on the standard Hazard Emitters I + Transfer Shield Strength II with 2x Tactical Team I and you still have a universal ensign slot for Engineering Team I, Science Team I, or another Hazard Emitters/Transfer Shield Strength. You'd be able to tank well with that setup without popping out a Valdore console. Running attack from my posts two comments up and it won't be hard to take a little focus fire now and again. I'd make such a video myself, but I don't have any Romulan C-store ships.
it is my opinion that while this is well and good, once these are on CD youre dead or cloaked. at which point, youve proven my point that romulan ships cant tank. the Secret to romulan tanking is to dump AS MUCH poer to shields as you can, BUT once you do, you no power fil anything else, not weapons, engines, or aux. at that point it just a matter of time before youre dead. i own all be one romulan ship, the dehlan, and i can tell you, tanking is not easy, and can only be done briefly even with the valedore console. much shorter without.
It is actually possible to get a full Human crew via the Tier IV Marauder bridge officers.
I did nit know this.....time to make a fed style KDF tank.
Well, that analogy isn't exactly accurate because Windows XP is great and Windows 8 is terrible. The Fleet Advanced Escort is far from obsolete, but an ensign universal would serve it well.
8 is only bed if you dont have touch screen. my laptop has touch screen.....
This isn't technically correct. Romulan ships have 40 less base power (160 instead of 200). They aren't penalized on maximum power and are capable of reaching 125 maximum power. They are also capable of setting shield power settings to 50 just like a federation or klingon starship. However, the -40 base power starts to fade when you factor in Starship Warp Core Efficiency. Romulans will get more out of this stat because two of their subsystems will be lower. There are numerous pieces of ship gear, consoles, duty officers, and bridge officers capable of substantially increasing a starship's power levels. Not to mention a fleet level singularity core will decrease the power penalty from -40 to -5 if the player doesn't use any of their singularity abilities (for those claiming they are weak/useless).
but the point is that not matter what you do to get power on a romulan ship, you cant do the smae on the fed.kdf ship and have move power which means better, stronger, and/or more powerful systems than the romulan counterpart. which can be used to tank much better. if you so choose. 1v1 my avenger can take whatever firepower can be dished out and can even shrug off vape attemps if i am going all defense. Hell, it can heal/repair it while its doing this! NONE of my romulans ships can do that. NONE.
Plasma Shockwave is an AoE Plasma DoT that will destroy all fighters, mines, and high yield torpedoes in 5km. A denfensive power.It will also deal significant plasma damage to enemy hulls with 100% shield bypass. Define: Significant. it isnt even to hurt much of anything.... Quantum Absorption will make the Romulan ship pseudo immune to bleedthrough while providing a heal equivalent to Transfer Shield Strength II for an extended duration. again defensive...Singularity Jump will break enemy target lock on your ship, decrease their weapon accuracy, and pull them inward while dealing damage.Incorrect, the ship disappears breifly. target lock is maintained...at least my ships do..... Warp Shadows grants perfect stealth for several seconds as well as fake copies of your ship in the form of spam. defensive again.... Lastly, Singularity Overcharge enhances energy weapons for a duration.which SOOO much worst than even CRF1 and FAW1....or BO1......i dont even use it because it REDUCES DPS.
2x Energy Siphon (usually II + III), Emergency Power to Shields + Emergency Power to Engines, Plasmonic Leech, and +25 all power levels warp core engineer with EPtX. Run 3-5 flow capacitor consoles and call me in the morning.
which isnt constant. my dyson does that. Erie that you can call out my build....
Reverse Shield Polarity is quite powerful due to the Fabrication Engineer that adds +8 seconds to the reverse shield polarity timer. It is possible to use Reverse Shield Polarity for 18-25 seconds with a 35-42 second cooldown after expiration.
And you better have good heals other than RSP of youre dead on CD. my avenger tanks without RSP at all.......
This is exactly the point, the Valdore console shouldn't increase exponentially in strength as a ship's outgoing damage increases. A cap on the maximum shield healing and frequency of the shield healing is what really needs to happen. This won't have much of an impact on the average user, but it would stop 20k+ DPS scimitars from becoming immortal from a single console.
Immortal? lol no, Tacituc is immortal, but ive yet see an unkillable scimitar. Elachi is your friend.
The ships are comparable because of their overall stats. The Ar'kif has 550 less base hull, but it gains +1 base turn rate. That is an equal tradeoff. +15 weapon power isn't base power because it is added after the base is calculated.
ok, you got me on the base power bit however, theres still one less eng slot for the arkif meaning its less durable. that with the less power to shields means the hull is less durable as are the shields...
The power bonus is minor to the point where it can be completely ignored. Tanking on a Romulan character isn't a problem at all. I've been running a Romulan Dyson Destroyer from the Anniversary with dual Transfer Shield Strength and dual Tactical Team and I have no trouble at all keeping that ship alive. The ship is set up as a traditional Science Vessel torpedo boat and has no use for the Valdore console. In truth, the ships that actually benefit from the Valdore Console the most have Commander Tactical bridge officer seating and/or Beam Fire at Will.
As i said in my last post...the dyson is the best tanking romulan ship you can get. the shields on this thing are wonderful. BUT, it still dies to elachi weapons FAST. it cant tank those. my mogh and avenger, and oddy, can.....due to better hull resist and more shield hardness due to additional shield power. Sure the dyson can tank, but not forever....the avenger can, if not nearly for forever.
and with all that i am going to sleep.....or a will try to.....insomnia and all that
T1 connies win ESTF........ you your reasoning behind calling the valdore console broken is even slighty based on pve....youre argument holds no water.
I dont understand what winning connies (or shuttles, back in times they were allowed for ESTFs) have to do with my argument. I think we can all agree that ESTFs are way too easy.
But I see your point with my reasons beeing just slightly based on PvE. The mission is indeed more PvEvP in terms of healing. And of course it is the only mission coming into my mind where that is the case, so it might not be game breaking.
Still I keep my argument, it is an I-win-button. The same person using that console could not win against himself not using that console in that mission.
It's how people bend and break mechanics that makes others call a nerf. I don't even have shield power high enough for the minimum possible passive shield healing. If Valdore doesn't proc, my shields just won't regenerate and continue to take damage (considering dyson regenerative for mini RSP). Seriously, my ship without any external heal under heavy damage is doomed, unless I cloak or Valdore comes in. And still it's random chance. Overhealing makes me appear that I was unbeatable. If it heals me for 5000*4=20000 twice (40000 then on chart) in a few seconds with facings at... 2000/6000, I'll get shields back up, with a real heal of 16000. That's some impressive difference to take into account.
This again??
Leave the valdore console alone, its fine and fixed.
This thing is becoming like the fed cloaks or the k'vort threads lol
The console does what it says. But becouse it also shows heals when shields are full, it shows overinflated numbers in parsers. Same thing would happend with hull heal if borg 2pc proc or HE would still show heals when the hull is full you know.
This console just shows the ugly thruth of the powercreep. And this thread is hypocrisis at its best. God forbid to nerf some offensive powers/items, lets nerfs the defensive ones. God forbid to nerf the exploiters that get that much dmg (thus heal too in this case), lets nerf the console to TRIBBLE the majority of player base. In most games the exploiters are been nerfed and prevented to keep exploiting items/mechanics, not the way around, to cater and adjust the items/mechanics around them.
Any cd or cap would be a huge nerf becouse of the overcap heal would render it allmost uselless. It would proc when ur shields are full and not next time, when u might actualy need it, whatever is becouse of a time lockdown or a min/max amount.
I remember when there was a thread about nerfing the aceton assimilator, allmost every pvper and their grandma came and preach about counters. But it seems they all forget about counters on this one lol
There is so much amount of bleedthru that is available in the game, like elite fleet disruptors, transphesics, elachi weapons or even doffs that boots it...
Stop calling for a nerf, or at least ask to make it behave diferent in PvP. Like half of its efectivness in PvP or something like that.
It's how people bend and break mechanics that makes others call a nerf. I don't even have shield power high enough for the minimum possible passive shield healing. If Valdore doesn't proc, my shields just won't regenerate and continue to take damage (considering dyson regenerative for mini RSP). Seriously, my ship without any external heal under heavy damage is doomed, unless I cloak or Valdore comes in. And still it's random chance. Overhealing makes me appear that I was unbeatable. If it heals me for 5000*4=20000 twice (40000 then on chart) in a few seconds with facings at... 2000/6000, I'll get shields back up, with a real heal of 16000. That's some impressive difference to take into account.
Did you consider that your inabiltiy to heal your ship is the trade-off you pay for making a ship that doesn't heal?
You focused entirely on offense, the console turns your offense into a defense, and suddenly, the trade-off between offense and defense is gone.
Imagine someone had build a ship build as a healer - practicaly no offensive capabilities, poor weapon power, no weapon boost powers. And then you give him a console that lets him deal damage for every heal he dishes out, significant enough that he now has the firepower of DPS focused cruiser (or even an escort).
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Imagine someone had build a ship build as a healer - practicaly no offensive capabilities, poor weapon power, no weapon boost powers. And then you give him a console that lets him deal damage for every heal he dishes out, significant enough that he now has the firepower of DPS focused cruiser (or even an escort).
I want! :P
Joking...er...somewhat.
But yeah, there does appear to be this overwhelming issue of folks not understanding the concept of opportunity cost - they want their cake with a side of pie.
This again??
Leave the valdore console alone, its fine and fixed.
This thing is becoming like the fed cloaks or the k'vort threads lol
The console does what it says. But becouse it also shows heals when shields are full, it shows overinflated numbers in parsers. Same thing would happend with hull heal if borg 2pc proc or HE would still show heals when the hull is full you know.
This console just shows the ugly thruth of the powercreep. And this thread is hypocrisis at its best. God forbid to nerf some offensive powers/items, lets nerfs the defensive ones. God forbid to nerf the exploiters that get that much dmg (thus heal too in this case), lets nerf the console to TRIBBLE the majority of player base. In most games the exploiters are been nerfed and prevented to keep exploiting items/mechanics, not the way around, to cater and adjust the items/mechanics around them.
Any cd or cap would be a huge nerf becouse of the overcap heal would render it allmost uselless. It would proc when ur shields are full and not next time, when u might actualy need it, whatever is becouse of a time lockdown or a min/max amount.
I remember when there was a thread about nerfing the aceton assimilator, allmost every pvper and their grandma came and preach about counters. But it seems they all forget about counters on this one lol
There is so much amount of bleedthru that is available in the game, like elite fleet disruptors, transphesics, elachi weapons or even doffs that boots it...
Stop calling for a nerf, or at least ask to make it behave diferent in PvP. Like half of its efectivness in PvP or something like that.
Its OP in PvE ... 1 Scimitar with this console does not need the rest of the 4 man team its so OP
It needs huge nerf...not a little one....Especially in PvE
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
EDIT2: It seems that the healing value is based on raw damage, not hull damage. Simply changing this to hull damage as the reference point would drastically reduce the issue in PVP while having only a very small effect on PVE due to the very different hull/raw damage profiles in PVE and PVP.
Based on the description of the way the item allegedly works, it should be based on shield damage only, since the power as described shouldn't even work if the target has no shields to absorb.
Maybe I'm over exaggerating or I've been fed false info...
But I was under the impression that this console gives you a chance to fully heal all facings on a proc from a crit...
You can't honestly tell me that is not OP, doesn't matter that the chance of getting it when you need it is an additional roll of the die. The fact that you can go from 0 to 100% off one shot is absolute bs.
If I'm wrong on the matter, I'd love to get a current explanation...might make me turn to the "leave it alone" crowd.
(my bad about it not getting atleast one nerf though,)
On average the valdore console triggers every 33s and heals for 3700 per facing.
Compare this to the average use (this counts only instances where an ability actually heals something; e.g. if you click EPtS while at perfect 100% shields, it won't trigger a heal) and healing rates of other shield heals:
Valdore: 33s / 3700 per facing
EPtS1: 83s / 1432 per facing
EPtS2: 103s / 2000 per facing
EPtS3: 85s / 2440 per facing
Rom T4 proc: 39s / 1810 per facing
BFI doff: 217s / 2330 per facing
Miracle Worker: ~230s / 3860 per facing
(These averages are taking over all players who actually use this ability. So EPtS1 averages are from players who use EPtS1, Valdore averages are from players who use the valdore console etc.)
Going by this, the valdore console is twice as good as the Rom T4 proc (which is also prone to overhealing due to its randomness) and occupies only one console slot out of nine or ten whereas the Rom T4 passive requires one of only four trait slots.
On average the valdore console triggers every 33s and heals for 3700 per facing.
Compare this to the average use (this counts only instances where an ability actually heals something; e.g. if you click EPtS while at perfect 100% shields, it won't trigger a heal) and healing rates of other shield heals:
Valdore: 33s / 3700 per facing
EPtS1: 83s / 1432 per facing
EPtS2: 103s / 2000 per facing
EPtS3: 85s / 2440 per facing
Rom T4 proc: 39s / 1810 per facing
BFI doff: 217s / 2330 per facing
Miracle Worker: ~230s / 3860 per facing
Going by this, the valdore console is twice as good as the Rom T4 proc (which is also prone to overhealing due to its randomness) and occupies only one console slot out of nine or ten whereas the Rom T4 passive requires one of only four trait slots.
Didn't crytic nerf the Rom T4 trait with season 9. Activating every 20s seems usless. You be dead waiting on that to proc? What am I missing. This whole thread is interesting to me. I have enjoyed every post negative and positive because it gives me info I didnt know before about healing. And more information or tips I would love. I seem to suck at healing is why I ask.
Maybe I'm over exaggerating or I've been fed false info...
But I was under the impression that this console gives you a chance to fully heal all facings on a proc from a crit...
You can't honestly tell me that is not OP, doesn't matter that the chance of getting it when you need it is an additional roll of the die. The fact that you can go from 0 to 100% off one shot is absolute bs.
If I'm wrong on the matter, I'd love to get a current explanation...might make me turn to the "leave it alone" crowd.
(my bad about it not getting atleast one nerf though,)
The heal is based off the raw damage before resistances. If you get a critical hit for 8000 damage, then that will be amplified by 200% as a shield heal. So yes, it is currently possible to fully heal all four facings on each proc. In an ideal situation, Cryptic should put a 2 second lockout on the Valdore console, a minimum shield heal, and a maximum shield heal. This would make functionality identical to the Solanae hull leech set bonus.
The heal is based off the raw damage before resistances. If you get a critical hit for 8000 damage, then that will be amplified by 200% as a shield heal. So yes, it is currently possible to fully heal all four facings on each proc. In an ideal situation, Cryptic should put a 2 second lockout on the Valdore console, a minimum shield heal, and a maximum shield heal. This would make functionality identical to the Solanae hull leech set bonus.
Well...there we have it...
A console that passively, has the potential fully heal on a single proc.
If you think it's fine as is...you need to learn the meaning of balance.
A console that passively, has the potential fully heal on a single proc.
If you think it's fine as is...you need to learn the meaning of balance.
What a farce. I think you need to actually try it out before making false claims based on nothing. And no, it does not fully heal, in fact not anywhere close to a tiny fraction of full heal. If you actually used it, you'd know that, instead of shouting "lets blindly nerf others, because I don't have it so I won't be nerfed.":cool:
And btw, a 2 sec cd would do nothing, because, frankly, it's nowhere close to triggering every 2 seconds even with a crit rate of 30%, your 0.75% doesn't add up.
"EPtS2: 103s / 2000 per facing"
What a load. You really think epts2 has a cd of 103 sec? Or only heals 2000 per facing? More often than not, ppl use it as a on demand heal instead of spacebar shield hardening, thus 103 sec average. Heal that hits full shield isn't counted, thus, 2000 per facing. Valedore heal is neither on demand, nor not counted when it hits full shield.:rolleyes:
"Get over it" sounds about right. The only change Cryptic should make is heal values that hit full shield being counted in pvp endgame screen, the trigger of all this nerd rage based on ignorance.
What a farce. I think you need to actually try it out before making false claims based on nothing. And no, it does not fully heal, in fact not anywhere close to a tiny fraction of full heal. If you actually used it, you'd know that, instead of shouting "lets blindly nerf others, because I don't have it so I won't be nerfed.":cool:
Hilbert's data speaks for itself. I myself have parsed many PvP matches and the Valdore console does have the potential to fully heal shields from 0% to 100% in one hit
And btw, a 2 sec cd would do nothing, because, frankly, it's nowhere close to triggering every 2 seconds even with a crit rate of 30%, your 0.75% doesn't add up.
The heal doesn't scale around critical chance at all. Critical hits will heal more than non-criticals, but even non-criticals can heal for full or half of a shield.
"Get over it" sounds about right. The only change Cryptic should make is heal values that hit full shield being counted in pvp endgame screen, the trigger of all this nerd rage based on ignorance.
The only "nerd rage" is from you and people like you that don't care about game balance.
They won't nerf it. Someone actually got a response from Cryptic on the Valdore console and their response was that it was fine because "It encourages players to close in short range to maximize their dps which is risky" or something. Basically semi coherent dribble demonstrating a lack of understanding of the games mechanics in the real world. You can't persuade a company that is in denial.
They won't nerf it. Someone actually got a response from Cryptic on the Valdore console and their response was that it was fine because "It encourages players to close in short range to maximize their dps which is risky" or something. Basically semi coherent dribble demonstrating a lack of understanding of the games mechanics in the real world. You can't persuade a company that is in denial.
You are taking AdjudicatorHawk's comment completely out of context. Players were trying to compare the Valdore console to the two piece borg set bonus, but he pointed out such comparisons are flawed. Here is the actual quote:
The major distinction between the Valdore console and the Borg set bonus is that the Borg set bonus only triggers when players need healing, while the Valdore console overheals all the time. The Valdore console also creates gameplay by encouraging the user to get to close range to maximize their damage output and heals, but also maximize their damage intake from the close-range target. The Borg set bonus has no such gameplay - it just heals you when your health gets low. Once again, comparing these two totally disparate game mechanics isn't really useful in a vacuum - the strength of one has no bearing on the strength of another. The Borg set has to stand up against other Engine/Deflector/Shield sets, while the Valdore console has to stand up against other things that can be slotted into console slots.
What he is saying here is that one cannot compare a two piece set bonus to a console. There are different mechanics to balance around in each case. He neither confirms nor denies the overpowered nature of the console in the post, but suggests that players compare the console to other consoles. However, we as players know that the Valdore console in the current state is far superior to anything else a Romulan can place in a console slot if their ship uses 6+ energy weapons.
What a load. You really think epts2 has a cd of 103 sec? Or only heals 2000 per facing? More often than not, ppl use it as a on demand heal instead of spacebar shield hardening, thus 103 sec average. Heal that hits full shield isn't counted, thus, 2000 per facing. Valedore heal is neither on demand, nor not counted when it hits full shield.:rolleyes:
I'm really not sure what you intend to say. Maybe you could clarify this a bit.
Nobody is claiming that EPtS2 has a cooldown of 103 seconds, it is merely the average time between activations when averaged over all players who used it in several thousand matches. The average heal of 2000 sounds reasonable. My Tac/Bortas has a tooltip value of 2242 per facing for EPtS3, so with some wiggle room for different specs/consoles/ship modifiers, 2k sounds about right for EPtS2.
The average use numbers for EPtS might be a tad misleading because of players who mix different levels of EPtS, so the "true" time between EPtS activations might be lower. Therefore I have compiled the data when one treats all versions of EPtS as a unified ability:
Comments
...but....but ....you don't underSTAAAAND....:mad::mad::mad:
Friendship is magic
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Do we know off hand how it works for other "leech heals" and the like?
Elite Phasers?
3pc Solanae?
Likewise, what about "reflects" - are they doing damage based on resisted or raw damage?
What's the overall precedent/way of doing things that Cryptic has established?
A lockout would also create the issue that exists with several abilities/items/etc sporting a lockout period - the sheer RNG swings that it would create.
Somebody using a mix of DBB, DHCs, Turrets - could lock themselves out of the larger heals from the DBB or DHCs because of a plink-plink from the Turrets.
The games already got far too many, imho, extreme swings like tied into RNG without there being another one added...
Like Hawk said in that post I quoted...they wanted to make it less "swingy", taking a look at the minimums and maximums. It's just a question, imho, of whether they took into account the growth of damage while making their changes...or...if it was just a change based on how things were at the time.
Its pretty easy to explain: We, who know how to dps, build ships etc. are an absolute minority. Go into any STF,look at you teammates and do some math. I am pretty sure, those 4 could play 24 hours a day and wouldnt get out the heal we get in 5 minutes.
You simply cant balance something for the top 10% of playerbase. If you do, then not only most of them wouldnt use it anymore (I dont use it on my scim, doesnt give me dps and I dont need it heal to stay alive), but it would be obsolete ("for a long time before the final patch comes") for 90% of the playerbase.
And this 90% playerbase is the one that pays for things, while the top 10% know how to get zen-stuff free.
So you have data on the one hand,saying its in line, and money from the ppl who buy the console. So what do you do? Correct, nothing
That it needs a nerf for us 10% isnt really a question, but the rammifications must be taken into account.
But that's the thing - that's where a "cap" instead of a "base" tweak would take that into consideration. It would be the "nerf" for that 10%, while the other 90% would likely not even notice.
It wouldn't be the first time that Cryptic ran with a diminishing returns/limit set on something. That as began to reach a certain point, that it returned less. As most folks are merrily bouncing around their day to day, they wouldn't be dancing anywhere near any severe diminished/limited returns and would be as fine as they were before the change.
It's just about tackling potential extremes, imho - which again, imho, can be done without affecting the vast majority of the playerbase.
Actually there is a Talshiar lockbox energy weapons doff, which works like the valdore console, somehow he seems to be a lot weaker, but since the game keeps crashing on me every 5 min, thats all i got atm. Should be easy enough to find out though, the doffs are cheap.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Hrmm, I know there's the +Shield Power EWO/PWO DOFFs that boost shield damage reduction and shield regeneration from boosting the shield power...but an actual heal DOFF? Hrmm...
Of course these should lock each other out....
Opportunity cost of between 1-3 doff slots is close enough for me.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
please...oh please....not another OP diff that will hit the exchange and cost the price of children souls.......
This would make it useless with how shields can sty up as long as they do. most people in pvp die while sheilds are still up, cooked in their shells. if your suggestion is follow, the only thing that will set of the valdore console is bleedthrough.....and that value is so small the resulting shield heal would be useless....
NO, NO, NO. feds and kdf DO NOT need the valdore console. they can tank super wel with out it. if they have it, fed/kdf ship WILL BE unkillable.
again, my avenger tanks GOOD. only a vaper can kill me and when then i have to not know he is coming which means, he only gets me ONCE.
ask parem about the U.S.S. Sun Tzu.....
T1 connies win ESTF........ you your reasoning behind calling the valdore console broken is even slighty based on pve....youre argument holds no water.
again....considering people can stomp ESTF in T1 connies.....use them to use what is broken is a mighty poor yard stick with which to measure.
with that method ANY ship that can output more than 4k DPS is broken and should be nerfed... Thats only about....EVERYTHING.
and with all that i am going to sleep.....or a will try to.....insomnia and all that
I dont understand what winning connies (or shuttles, back in times they were allowed for ESTFs) have to do with my argument. I think we can all agree that ESTFs are way too easy.
But I see your point with my reasons beeing just slightly based on PvE. The mission is indeed more PvEvP in terms of healing. And of course it is the only mission coming into my mind where that is the case, so it might not be game breaking.
Still I keep my argument, it is an I-win-button. The same person using that console could not win against himself not using that console in that mission.
Leave the valdore console alone, its fine and fixed.
This thing is becoming like the fed cloaks or the k'vort threads lol
The console does what it says. But becouse it also shows heals when shields are full, it shows overinflated numbers in parsers. Same thing would happend with hull heal if borg 2pc proc or HE would still show heals when the hull is full you know.
This console just shows the ugly thruth of the powercreep. And this thread is hypocrisis at its best. God forbid to nerf some offensive powers/items, lets nerfs the defensive ones. God forbid to nerf the exploiters that get that much dmg (thus heal too in this case), lets nerf the console to TRIBBLE the majority of player base. In most games the exploiters are been nerfed and prevented to keep exploiting items/mechanics, not the way around, to cater and adjust the items/mechanics around them.
Any cd or cap would be a huge nerf becouse of the overcap heal would render it allmost uselless. It would proc when ur shields are full and not next time, when u might actualy need it, whatever is becouse of a time lockdown or a min/max amount.
I remember when there was a thread about nerfing the aceton assimilator, allmost every pvper and their grandma came and preach about counters. But it seems they all forget about counters on this one lol
There is so much amount of bleedthru that is available in the game, like elite fleet disruptors, transphesics, elachi weapons or even doffs that boots it...
Stop calling for a nerf, or at least ask to make it behave diferent in PvP. Like half of its efectivness in PvP or something like that.
You focused entirely on offense, the console turns your offense into a defense, and suddenly, the trade-off between offense and defense is gone.
Imagine someone had build a ship build as a healer - practicaly no offensive capabilities, poor weapon power, no weapon boost powers. And then you give him a console that lets him deal damage for every heal he dishes out, significant enough that he now has the firepower of DPS focused cruiser (or even an escort).
I want! :P
Joking...er...somewhat.
But yeah, there does appear to be this overwhelming issue of folks not understanding the concept of opportunity cost - they want their cake with a side of pie.
Its OP in PvE ... 1 Scimitar with this console does not need the rest of the 4 man team its so OP
It needs huge nerf...not a little one....Especially in PvE
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
But I was under the impression that this console gives you a chance to fully heal all facings on a proc from a crit...
You can't honestly tell me that is not OP, doesn't matter that the chance of getting it when you need it is an additional roll of the die. The fact that you can go from 0 to 100% off one shot is absolute bs.
If I'm wrong on the matter, I'd love to get a current explanation...might make me turn to the "leave it alone" crowd.
(my bad about it not getting atleast one nerf though,)
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
On average the valdore console triggers every 33s and heals for 3700 per facing.
Compare this to the average use (this counts only instances where an ability actually heals something; e.g. if you click EPtS while at perfect 100% shields, it won't trigger a heal) and healing rates of other shield heals:
- Valdore: 33s / 3700 per facing
- EPtS1: 83s / 1432 per facing
- EPtS2: 103s / 2000 per facing
- EPtS3: 85s / 2440 per facing
- Rom T4 proc: 39s / 1810 per facing
- BFI doff: 217s / 2330 per facing
- Miracle Worker: ~230s / 3860 per facing
(These averages are taking over all players who actually use this ability. So EPtS1 averages are from players who use EPtS1, Valdore averages are from players who use the valdore console etc.)Going by this, the valdore console is twice as good as the Rom T4 proc (which is also prone to overhealing due to its randomness) and occupies only one console slot out of nine or ten whereas the Rom T4 passive requires one of only four trait slots.
Didn't crytic nerf the Rom T4 trait with season 9. Activating every 20s seems usless. You be dead waiting on that to proc? What am I missing. This whole thread is interesting to me. I have enjoyed every post negative and positive because it gives me info I didnt know before about healing. And more information or tips I would love. I seem to suck at healing is why I ask.
The heal is based off the raw damage before resistances. If you get a critical hit for 8000 damage, then that will be amplified by 200% as a shield heal. So yes, it is currently possible to fully heal all four facings on each proc. In an ideal situation, Cryptic should put a 2 second lockout on the Valdore console, a minimum shield heal, and a maximum shield heal. This would make functionality identical to the Solanae hull leech set bonus.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Well...there we have it...
A console that passively, has the potential fully heal on a single proc.
If you think it's fine as is...you need to learn the meaning of balance.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Get over it.
Fanning the flames eh?
Roms are fine...the valdore console isnt.
Get over "your"self
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
What a farce. I think you need to actually try it out before making false claims based on nothing. And no, it does not fully heal, in fact not anywhere close to a tiny fraction of full heal. If you actually used it, you'd know that, instead of shouting "lets blindly nerf others, because I don't have it so I won't be nerfed.":cool:
And btw, a 2 sec cd would do nothing, because, frankly, it's nowhere close to triggering every 2 seconds even with a crit rate of 30%, your 0.75% doesn't add up.
"EPtS2: 103s / 2000 per facing"
What a load. You really think epts2 has a cd of 103 sec? Or only heals 2000 per facing? More often than not, ppl use it as a on demand heal instead of spacebar shield hardening, thus 103 sec average. Heal that hits full shield isn't counted, thus, 2000 per facing. Valedore heal is neither on demand, nor not counted when it hits full shield.:rolleyes:
"Get over it" sounds about right. The only change Cryptic should make is heal values that hit full shield being counted in pvp endgame screen, the trigger of all this nerd rage based on ignorance.
The heal doesn't scale around critical chance at all. Critical hits will heal more than non-criticals, but even non-criticals can heal for full or half of a shield.
The only "nerd rage" is from you and people like you that don't care about game balance.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
You are taking AdjudicatorHawk's comment completely out of context. Players were trying to compare the Valdore console to the two piece borg set bonus, but he pointed out such comparisons are flawed. Here is the actual quote:
What he is saying here is that one cannot compare a two piece set bonus to a console. There are different mechanics to balance around in each case. He neither confirms nor denies the overpowered nature of the console in the post, but suggests that players compare the console to other consoles. However, we as players know that the Valdore console in the current state is far superior to anything else a Romulan can place in a console slot if their ship uses 6+ energy weapons.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Nobody is claiming that EPtS2 has a cooldown of 103 seconds, it is merely the average time between activations when averaged over all players who used it in several thousand matches. The average heal of 2000 sounds reasonable. My Tac/Bortas has a tooltip value of 2242 per facing for EPtS3, so with some wiggle room for different specs/consoles/ship modifiers, 2k sounds about right for EPtS2.
The average use numbers for EPtS might be a tad misleading because of players who mix different levels of EPtS, so the "true" time between EPtS activations might be lower. Therefore I have compiled the data when one treats all versions of EPtS as a unified ability: