First off I never complained about plasmonic leech, but it was one of few useful consoles that the KDF had access too. Secondly Sarcasm aside what I'd really like is for someone to take the nerf bat to every PvP vaping build in the game. So I can stand there whilst you all cry over it. while stating that Karma's a *****! but hey that's just me.
But no doubt that sooner or later the Dev's will pander to your cries for it to be nerf'd
This has nothing to do with the overall argument but.... leech is useless in a vape build...just saying...
Responses are in blue, just felt easier to do the response that way.
Hilbert's data is only collected from pvp matches. Though that doesn't matter that much, because dps is measured after resistances and is not purely based on the raw damage a ship puts out. And no, not only dps peeps use the console or put up their logs. In fact i don't know if any of the "dps channel admins" actually upload their pvp matches onto the leaderboard (hilbert's leaderboard). So it's basically only coincidental if they get logged or not.
Look at the link: http://hilbertguide.com/leaderboard/encounter.php?id=8766
The names of people that actually logged the whole match are written in bold letters. It's not predominately heavy dps captains that upload their logs here, but anyone who likes, or who wants his performance to be seen. Everyone else is just dragged along.
Per proc and cap: It can be done per proc, but that will probably involve new code, that will more deeply influence the games systems. So sure it can be done, but given cryptic's track record ...
And for how high or low the cap should be set is not for you or me to decide. That's what the developers are for and bort already said that he will be very carefull in any adjustment that is made, because it's a premium item people paid real money for.
Now look at that link: http://hilbertguide.com/extern/PWE-2014-05-13-DataValdore-Percentages.png
These are the people that actually use the console. The graph shows that the console is responsible for more than 70% of the shield healing of the console users. So tell me, how is a console a good thing that heals more than double the amount of every dedicatet and passive shield heal in the game combined? The console should replace something of equal value. A console slot for a boff slot (i don't even know if you would consider that equal). But not a console slot for all your shield healing abilities 3 times over.
What he said didn't make much sense, though...besides, you don't need to cloak to vape - never have. Would honestly think that folks would complain more about the non-cloaking vapes than the cloaked vapes. With the cloaked vapes, hey - it's a surprised. With the non-cloaked vapes, you see it coming and you're still dead. Trippy, eh?
What he said didn't make much sense, though...besides, you don't need to cloak to vape - never have. Would honestly think that folks would complain more about the non-cloaking vapes than the cloaked vapes. With the cloaked vapes, hey - it's a surprised. With the non-cloaked vapes, you see it coming and you're still dead. Trippy, eh?
I remember a match against a fleetmade faw team. We basically had to resort to "daylight vape" tactics. Fly in, hit and kill the target, then fly out. All with non-cloak-capable ships. 2 teammates left in the middle of the game and after a 14 to 10 comeback the opposing faw wanted to warp out. Luckily one of them attacked us and we got the win
Hilbert's data is only collected from pvp matches. Though that doesn't matter that much, because dps is measured after resistances and is not based on the raw damage a ship puts out. And no, not only dps peeps use the console or put up their logs. In fact i don't know if any of the "dps channel admins" actually upload their pvp matches onto the leaderboard (hilbert's leaderboard). So it's basically only coincidental if they get logged or not.
Look at the link: http://hilbertguide.com/leaderboard/encounter.php?id=8766
The names of people that actually logged the whole match are written in bold letters. It's not predominately heavy dps captains that upload their logs here, but anyone who likes, or who wants his performance to be seen. Everyone else is just dragged along.
I don't think you're picking up on my point so I'm going to leave it, maybe it's the way I'm wording it but you've not got it so I'll leave it and foucs on the other one. Sorry but I don't want to keep wasting our time by going round in circles with it.
Per proc and cap: It can be done per proc, but that will probably involve new code, that will more deeply influence the games systems. So sure it can be done, but given cryptic's track record ...
And for how high or low the cap should be set is not for you or me to decide. That's what the developers are for and bort already said that he will be very carefull in any adjustment that is made, because it's a premium item people paid real money for.
Well something that has become clearly apparent if you follow everything Cryptic release is that the old coding has been a chunk of the problem in the past and lately they've been simply replacing it, I wouldn't count them out yet things have been picking up, but that's what you get for inheriting the game instead of start with it yourselves I guess.
As to how high or low, given it is the devs who have to decide but if unless they have figures across the board for everyone (hopefully better quality ones than the OP's) it's just going to be another failed attempt at doing it right. But then I may be stating the obvious there so I'll leave that a moment.
Now look at that link: http://hilbertguide.com/extern/PWE-2014-05-13-DataValdore-Percentages.png
These are the people that actually use the console. The graph shows that the console is responsible for more than 70% of the shield healing of the console users. So tell me, how is a console a good thing that heals more than double the amount of every dedicatet and passive shield heal in the game combined? The console should replace something of equal value. A console slot for a boff slot (i don't even know if you would consider that equal). But not a console slot for all your shield healing abilities 3 times over.
I read those before I started posting but thanks for linking what you're referring to. It would be a very interesting discussion, and perhaps one we should have at some point, to define how a console should relate to a BOFF power. Heck, why not add in DOFF's and powers that are innate to engines/shields/deflectors and what not, even set bonuses. So we're on the same lines I'll say that a console shouldn't outdo a Lt./Lt. Com slot of any given profession, although I have grabbed that from an educated guess of combining Science Team and TSS (what grades of those are obviously debatable.)
Truth is it's hard to really quantify what a console should do, though as I said in my response there it might be worth investigating that to see if some kind of template could be made out of that.
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
Truth is it's hard to really quantify what a console should do, though as I said in my response there it might be worth investigating that to see if some kind of template could be made out of that.
I get what you want to say with your first point. Since the console is based on dps, those captains/ships doing more of it are naturally more inclined to use it and thus may skew the chart. Not everybody is a tac captain, tac captains aren't all clumped into a single team, tac captains aren't the only ones using the console (thus the should push the consoles effect down in comparison), team composition is completely random at times ... etc.
In the end i believe that every value averages out in the long run and the skew that might be there is blurred out by the massive amount of matches recorded.
But i simply believe in the premise, that high dps ships should be fragile and if they don't want to be that, they have to sacrifice more to gain the same tankyness lower dps captains/ships should be able to achieve.
P.S.: feel free to correct me if i didn't "get" you again
I get what you want to say with your first point. Since the console is based on dps, those captains/ships doing more of it are naturally more inclined to use it and thus may skew the chart. Not everybody is a tac captain, tac captains aren't all clumped into a single team, tac captains aren't the only ones using the console (thus the should push the consoles effect down in comparison), team composition is completely random at times ... etc.
In the end i believe that every value averages out in the long run and the skew that might be there is blurred out by the massive amount of matches recorded.
But i simply believe in the premise, that high dps ships should be fragile and if they don't want to be that, they have to sacrifice more to gain the same tankyness lower dps captains/ships should be able to achieve.
P.S.: feel free to correct me if i didn't "get" you again
Nope you've got it that time, it may have been you were going into a full response and I wasn't seeing the connection. Still I see what your point is now and although I still don't agree entirely with that data aspect I'm happier than I was.
I actually agree with that premise as well, although personally I'd word it that I prefer to have ships balanced, as I think the game ought to demand that. But that's a gameplay quality issue I'm falling into so I'll stop there.
But still, so long as we're only nerfing the valdore at the high end like you were saying and it doesn't impact the, how shall I put it, player base that run it as a bonus and not a crutch, assuming that wording makes sense?
Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head. - Euripides
I no longer do any Bug Hunting work for Cryptic. I may resume if a serious attempt to fix the game is made.
But i simply believe in the premise, that high dps ships should be fragile and if they don't want to be that, they have to sacrifice more to gain the same tankyness lower dps captains/ships should be able to achieve.
I blame Star Trek and the Hero Ship Complex.
TOS: You could have 1000 Constitution-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but the Enterprise would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
TNG: You could have 1000 Galaxy-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but the Enterprise would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
DS9: You could have 1000 Defiant-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but Sisko's Defiant would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
VOY: You could have 1000 Intrepid-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but Voyager would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
ENT: You could have 1000 NX-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but the Enterprise would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
hi there guys, scimitar barbie is my toon, two things:
1. out of curiosity can anybody tell me why my heals are more than the other two players referanced? (im the one with cannons doing less "DPS").
2. I would not QQ in the slightest if they nerfed the voldore console. restriction breeds creativity, the voldore console works so well on my ship i would be an idiot not to use it, but if that wasnt the case....
hi there guys, scimitar barbie is my toon, two things:
1. out of curiosity can anybody tell me why my heals are more than the other two players referanced? (im the one with cannons doing less "DPS").
2. I would not QQ in the slightest if they nerfed the voldore console. restriction breeds creativity, the voldore console works so well on my ship i would be an idiot not to use it, but if that wasnt the case....
You probably already know the answer but the cycle speed is faster then beams, therefore you proc more. Plus cannons hit harder, therefore you get bigger heals.
hi there guys, scimitar barbie is my toon, two things:
1. out of curiosity can anybody tell me why my heals are more than the other two players referanced? (im the one with cannons doing less "DPS").
Unlike some players, I think that the Valdore console has a proc chance per cycle, not per shot. (EDIT: I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe it is per shot, maybe it is per cycle. Who knows.) This means that even though FAW massively increases one's swings and dps (via aoe), it doesn't increase one's valdore proc chance. Which means that with cannons you have a similar cycle count, but higher average damage from DHCs vs Beams (the scimitar has 5 frontal weapons, on average the DHCs will have a bigger impact than the low damag turrets) which leads to higher average Valdore heals per proc.
This probably explains one part, the other is that you also had the dyson shield proc which the others didn't have.
Unlike some players, I think that the Valdore console has a proc chance per cycle, not per shot. This means that even though FAW massively increases one's swings and dps (via aoe), it doesn't increase one's valdore proc chance. Which means that with cannons you have a similar cycle count, but higher average damage from DHCs vs Beams (the scimitar has 5 frontal weapons, on average the DHCs will have a bigger impact than the low damag turrets) which leads to higher average Valdore heals per proc.
This probably explains one part, the other is that you also had the dyson shield proc which the others didn't have.
What are you basing the chance on cycle vs hit on?
It would seem like a per shot console on first look, do the logs show they happen within a certain pattern mimicking a beam or a cannon cycle?
What are you basing the chance on cycle vs hit on?
It would seem like a per shot console on first look, do the logs show they happen within a certain pattern mimicking a beam or a cannon cycle?
I was fairly certain that I had calculated that ValdoreHeals / WeaponSwings was roughly 0.025 (=2.5%), which would fit a per-cycle proc chance considering that each weapon fires on average something like 4 times (assuming higher FAW swings compensate lower DHC swings) and a shield heal is also recorded as 4 heals, which means that this value is almost the same as Procs / Cycles.
I just ran the numbers again and doing this for the entire population gives me a ratio of ~0.05 = 5% which is right in the middle of 2.5% per-cycle and 2.5% per shot (which means ~10% per cycle).
Now there are two things that are currently not accounted for: If shields are perfectly full and the console procs, the heal will not be recorded (if it behaves like every other shield heal in the game). This means that the number of healing events is most likely too low. On the other hand, I don't really know by which factor I need to compensate the swings to get a true cycle count, so this number could go both ways.
In essence, I can't tell with certainty what's going on with that chance. Maybe it really is per shot.
Now there are two things that are currently not accounted for: If shields are perfectly full and the console procs, the heal will not be recorded (if it behaves like every other shield heal in the game). This means that the number of healing events is most likely too low. On the other hand, I don't really know by which factor I need to compensate the swings to get a true cycle count, so this number could go both ways.
How often, in a pvp scenario, will you shields be undamaged while firing your weapons? I'm pretty sure this unrecorded phantom-heal is negligible.
And to test per-cycle versus per-shot activation, you could just fire with and without low power rapid fire on a stationary target.
hi there guys, scimitar barbie is my toon, two things:
1. out of curiosity can anybody tell me why my heals are more than the other two players referanced? (im the one with cannons doing less "DPS").
2. I would not QQ in the slightest if they nerfed the voldore console. restriction breeds creativity, the voldore console works so well on my ship i would be an idiot not to use it, but if that wasnt the case....
dhc have a higher damage per shot a typical unbuffed beam will do 1400 per shot dhc will be about 2200ish
beam hits and procs @200%
1400*2= 2800 per faceing = 11200
dhc hits and procs @200%
2200*2=4400 per faceing = 17600
obviously this changes alot depending on buffs etc etc but thats my guess...
edit: just checked it, i am correct
peggyo: number of procs=140 max was 10,038
mal: number of procs=108 max was 10,926
barbie: number of procs=128max was 17546
so as you can see your heal for MORE due to your higher base damage which the heal is based off the amount of procs seems about even
If the console or an item gets nerfed, all players who purchased it should be refunded for their zen/lobi etc. To do anything else is simple theft and reveals a total lack of any customer services in a corporation.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
If the console or an item gets nerfed, all players who purchased it should be refunded for their zen/lobi etc. To do anything else is simple theft and reveals a total lack of any customer services in a corporation.
Actually, their tos allows then to do anything as they see fit.
Usually along the lines "cryptic studios withhold the right to make changes to STO as they see fit." the typical law jargon.
We are only "renting" the game." everything is their property, this includes "our" toons.
Comments
This has nothing to do with the overall argument but.... leech is useless in a vape build...just saying...
What? What? But I heard it was such an awesome console that I run it on my torp boat!
That's not what he said, at all....
Hilbert's data is only collected from pvp matches. Though that doesn't matter that much, because dps is measured after resistances and is not purely based on the raw damage a ship puts out. And no, not only dps peeps use the console or put up their logs. In fact i don't know if any of the "dps channel admins" actually upload their pvp matches onto the leaderboard (hilbert's leaderboard). So it's basically only coincidental if they get logged or not.
Look at the link: http://hilbertguide.com/leaderboard/encounter.php?id=8766
The names of people that actually logged the whole match are written in bold letters. It's not predominately heavy dps captains that upload their logs here, but anyone who likes, or who wants his performance to be seen. Everyone else is just dragged along.
Per proc and cap: It can be done per proc, but that will probably involve new code, that will more deeply influence the games systems. So sure it can be done, but given cryptic's track record ...
And for how high or low the cap should be set is not for you or me to decide. That's what the developers are for and bort already said that he will be very carefull in any adjustment that is made, because it's a premium item people paid real money for.
Now look at that link: http://hilbertguide.com/extern/PWE-2014-05-13-DataValdore-Percentages.png
These are the people that actually use the console. The graph shows that the console is responsible for more than 70% of the shield healing of the console users. So tell me, how is a console a good thing that heals more than double the amount of every dedicatet and passive shield heal in the game combined? The console should replace something of equal value. A console slot for a boff slot (i don't even know if you would consider that equal). But not a console slot for all your shield healing abilities 3 times over.
What he said didn't make much sense, though...besides, you don't need to cloak to vape - never have. Would honestly think that folks would complain more about the non-cloaking vapes than the cloaked vapes. With the cloaked vapes, hey - it's a surprised. With the non-cloaked vapes, you see it coming and you're still dead. Trippy, eh?
I remember a match against a fleetmade faw team. We basically had to resort to "daylight vape" tactics. Fly in, hit and kill the target, then fly out. All with non-cloak-capable ships. 2 teammates left in the middle of the game and after a 14 to 10 comeback the opposing faw wanted to warp out. Luckily one of them attacked us and we got the win
Truth is it's hard to really quantify what a console should do, though as I said in my response there it might be worth investigating that to see if some kind of template could be made out of that.
I get what you want to say with your first point. Since the console is based on dps, those captains/ships doing more of it are naturally more inclined to use it and thus may skew the chart. Not everybody is a tac captain, tac captains aren't all clumped into a single team, tac captains aren't the only ones using the console (thus the should push the consoles effect down in comparison), team composition is completely random at times ... etc.
In the end i believe that every value averages out in the long run and the skew that might be there is blurred out by the massive amount of matches recorded.
But i simply believe in the premise, that high dps ships should be fragile and if they don't want to be that, they have to sacrifice more to gain the same tankyness lower dps captains/ships should be able to achieve.
P.S.: feel free to correct me if i didn't "get" you again
Nope you've got it that time, it may have been you were going into a full response and I wasn't seeing the connection. Still I see what your point is now and although I still don't agree entirely with that data aspect I'm happier than I was.
I actually agree with that premise as well, although personally I'd word it that I prefer to have ships balanced, as I think the game ought to demand that. But that's a gameplay quality issue I'm falling into so I'll stop there.
But still, so long as we're only nerfing the valdore at the high end like you were saying and it doesn't impact the, how shall I put it, player base that run it as a bonus and not a crutch, assuming that wording makes sense?
I blame Star Trek and the Hero Ship Complex.
TOS: You could have 1000 Constitution-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but the Enterprise would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
TNG: You could have 1000 Galaxy-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but the Enterprise would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
DS9: You could have 1000 Defiant-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but Sisko's Defiant would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
VOY: You could have 1000 Intrepid-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but Voyager would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
ENT: You could have 1000 NX-class enter a fight...999 of them would get blown up...but the Enterprise would be fine. Unless the plot required it to be blown up.
Yay, Canon! Meh...
best use for the valdore console lol.....it procs so much with a BFaW boat lol
1. out of curiosity can anybody tell me why my heals are more than the other two players referanced? (im the one with cannons doing less "DPS").
2. I would not QQ in the slightest if they nerfed the voldore console. restriction breeds creativity, the voldore console works so well on my ship i would be an idiot not to use it, but if that wasnt the case....
You probably already know the answer but the cycle speed is faster then beams, therefore you proc more. Plus cannons hit harder, therefore you get bigger heals.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
This probably explains one part, the other is that you also had the dyson shield proc which the others didn't have.
What are you basing the chance on cycle vs hit on?
It would seem like a per shot console on first look, do the logs show they happen within a certain pattern mimicking a beam or a cannon cycle?
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I just ran the numbers again and doing this for the entire population gives me a ratio of ~0.05 = 5% which is right in the middle of 2.5% per-cycle and 2.5% per shot (which means ~10% per cycle).
Now there are two things that are currently not accounted for: If shields are perfectly full and the console procs, the heal will not be recorded (if it behaves like every other shield heal in the game). This means that the number of healing events is most likely too low. On the other hand, I don't really know by which factor I need to compensate the swings to get a true cycle count, so this number could go both ways.
In essence, I can't tell with certainty what's going on with that chance. Maybe it really is per shot.
Not 100% sure on this, but I am going to assume they mean, are you taking in consideration that carrier pets, can also trigger the console?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
How often, in a pvp scenario, will you shields be undamaged while firing your weapons? I'm pretty sure this unrecorded phantom-heal is negligible.
And to test per-cycle versus per-shot activation, you could just fire with and without low power rapid fire on a stationary target.
dhc have a higher damage per shot a typical unbuffed beam will do 1400 per shot dhc will be about 2200ish
beam hits and procs @200%
1400*2= 2800 per faceing = 11200
dhc hits and procs @200%
2200*2=4400 per faceing = 17600
obviously this changes alot depending on buffs etc etc but thats my guess...
edit: just checked it, i am correct
peggyo: number of procs=140 max was 10,038
mal: number of procs=108 max was 10,926
barbie: number of procs=128max was 17546
so as you can see your heal for MORE due to your higher base damage which the heal is based off the amount of procs seems about even
Solo STF's With Optional ISE: 3:34
i have all logs saved of these so if you would like to view them send me a pm and it can be arranged
Probably in the news post advertising said promotion.
Wouldn't they ?
Actually, their tos allows then to do anything as they see fit.
Usually along the lines "cryptic studios withhold the right to make changes to STO as they see fit." the typical law jargon.
We are only "renting" the game." everything is their property, this includes "our" toons.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Point is that if the customers aren't happy, people will start to distrust Cryptic and not invest anymore in the game new features.