The console is fine because for 98% of people who use it, they get low proc and balanced/reasonable heals. The console is therefore a perfectly balanced game mechanic.
Let's address this, eh? Although it's been previously addressed in the thread, let's address this again, eh?
While people are going to throw around different numbers...2%, 10%, whatever - as the number of folks that are potentially skewing the benefits of this console; the mere fact that a number can be suggested tells you that the console is not perfectly balanced.
A perfectly balanced console would take into consideration the outer bounds and have the system in place to deal with them so that they those edge cases would not occur. It would be a simple case of applying a limit (a "cap" of sorts) to the potential results of the console, thus ensuring that regardless of the player or the situation that it was operating within a designed range.
So we know from a dev post and from patch notes a couple of weeks later was it - that initially it was not working within the range they wanted and so it was tuned. The question that arises from that change was whether the tuning was future-proofed or if it was a temporary fix at the current point of time.
You see, that tuning took place in June 2013. Damage in the game was at a certain level in June of 2013...that is not the same level of damage that exists currently in May of 2014. Even for that 90-98% - or whatever fictional number one wants to throw at it - they have likely seen an increase in damage. It's just the nature of the game.
In a PvP setting, this would obviously also mean that incoming damage has increased. However, in the PvE setting - there is no hierarchy of content. It is all designed as potentially being the first content that somebody at 50 would run. Thus, there's absolutely no expectation for incoming damage to have increased - but the outgoing damage has obviously increased.
So we've got the obvious issue of it not being balanced - offered by those suggesting it is balanced. We've got the potential issue of it not being balanced - based on how it was tuned last year.
Is that it?
It's a console from a 1000 Zen boat. What are the consoles/items like on other 1000 Zen boats?
There's the Point Defense System from the Heavy Escort Refit.
There's the Tachyon Detection Field from the Advanced Research Vessel.
There's the Disruptor Quad Cannons [Dmg]x4 from the Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey.
There's the Bio-Neural Warhead from the SuQob Raptor.
There's the Magnetometric Generator from the Koro't'inga Battle Cruiser.
There's the Plasmonic Leech from the Vandal Destroyer.
There's the Barrier Field Generator from the Phalanx Science Vessel.
So all in all, when folks say that it is a balanced console - while pointing out that it is not a balanced console themselves - well...there's going to be folks that question whether the console is actually balanced or not...
The only thing highly laughable and pitiful is you. You pretty much suck at tha game and all you really do is spout absolute nonsense in the forums. We all laugh at you in the channels--your ignorance as to game mechanics and game math is astounding. You think you are some authority, or worse, actually think anyone cares what you say, but you are dead wrong. And if you need proof, I can produce the links where you come off looking like a complete TRIBBLE-hat.
Now get back to eating your Cheetos and guzzling it down with some Mountain Dew and let the adults continue this conversation.
porchsong,
This post from you was even funnier than your previous post.
Do I suck at the game? I freely admit such. I even argue with folks that say I do not, trying to get them to see some reason and accept that I suck at the game. So telling me that I suck at the game...in thinking that it would upset me...well, it makes about as much sense as anything else you have ever said.
Do I think I am an authority on game mechanics? I freely admit that at best I do some grunt work getting some data for all the actual folks with the brainpower to figure things out. I even argue with folks that say that I'm some sort of mechanics guru, trying to get them to see some reason and accept that I'm just passing along information from the actual gurus - because I spend a Hell of a lot more time on the forums than they do. So telling me that I am ignorant of game mechanics...in thinking that it would upset me...well, it makes about as much sense as anything else you have ever said.
Am I ever wrong? Of course there are times when I am wrong. I freely admit when I am wrong. I do not mind being wrong, when it is actually a case that I am wrong, because in the end that means the right information will actually be shared with the players looking for information. So telling me that I am wrong at times...in thinking that would upset me...well, it makes about as much sense as anything else you have ever said.
I wish I could say that I was sorry that I do not have the fragile ego that you do and how horribly upsetting that must be to you, but it would be a lie - so I can't say I'm sorry.
Oh, by the way - it's Diet Mountain Dew...but then again, based on the rest of the post - paying attention is not one of your strong suits...
Let's address this, eh? Although it's been previously addressed in the thread, let's address this again, eh?
While people are going to throw around different numbers...2%, 10%, whatever - as the number of folks that are potentially skewing the benefits of this console; the mere fact that a number can be suggested tells you that the console is not perfectly balanced.
A perfectly balanced console would take into consideration the outer bounds and have the system in place to deal with them so that they those edge cases would not occur. It would be a simple case of applying a limit (a "cap" of sorts) to the potential results of the console, thus ensuring that regardless of the player or the situation that it was operating within a designed range.
So we know from a dev post and from patch notes a couple of weeks later was it - that initially it was not working within the range they wanted and so it was tuned. The question that arises from that change was whether the tuning was future-proofed or if it was a temporary fix at the current point of time.
You see, that tuning took place in June 2013. Damage in the game was at a certain level in June of 2013...that is not the same level of damage that exists currently in May of 2014. Even for that 90-98% - or whatever fictional number one wants to throw at it - they have likely seen an increase in damage. It's just the nature of the game.
In a PvP setting, this would obviously also mean that incoming damage has increased. However, in the PvE setting - there is no hierarchy of content. It is all designed as potentially being the first content that somebody at 50 would run. Thus, there's absolutely no expectation for incoming damage to have increased - but the outgoing damage has obviously increased.
So we've got the obvious issue of it not being balanced - offered by those suggesting it is balanced. We've got the potential issue of it not being balanced - based on how it was tuned last year.
Is that it?
It's a console from a 1000 Zen boat. What are the consoles/items like on other 1000 Zen boats?
There's the Point Defense System from the Heavy Escort Refit.
There's the Tachyon Detection Field from the Advanced Research Vessel.
There's the Disruptor Quad Cannons [Dmg]x4 from the Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey.
There's the Bio-Neural Warhead from the SuQob Raptor.
There's the Magnetometric Generator from the Koro't'inga Battle Cruiser.
There's the Plasmonic Leech from the Vandal Destroyer.
There's the Barrier Field Generator from the Phalanx Science Vessel.
So all in all, when folks say that it is a balanced console - while pointing out that it is not a balanced console themselves - well...there's going to be folks that question whether the console is actually balanced or not...
Good lord, you actually included plasmonic leech in that list?:D
Btw, you seem to have gotten the concept of "balance" wrong. Balance doesn't mean that a console need to be as bad as the "Tachyon Detection Field." The Tachyon Detection Field isn't balanced, because it sucks too much to be balanced.
When a console (majority of the list) is not worth a slot in any situation, it's not balanced.
When a console (plasmonic leech) is a must have in all situations, it's not balanced.
When a console (valedore) is situational, you consider putting it on or taking it off as needed, it's balanced.
No one in their right mind would ever take off their plasmonic leech anywhere.
No one in their right mind would ever waste a slot on tachyon detection field anywhere.
Ppl take off valedore console for another crit or turn rate console in borg stfs and easier pve contents regularly. Put it back on in pvp or voth stfs, where they wanted the extra heal to survive.
^^ highly laughable because you have comprehesion issues? I forgive you then.
Perhaps if you were communicating something other than assumptions...there might be something to comprehend? As is, it comes off as the typical whining of the fail PvE player that gives the average PvE player a bad name...
There's hoping one day Cryptic would just remove pvp so the few and the 1337 won't feel the need to ruin the game for the rest of us. But god forbit all 10 of them get together and boycott sto. :rolleyes:
You could remove PvP...and there would still be honest PvE players that would point out balance issues. Don't let your personal dishonesty ever cloud that fact...
Good lord, you actually included plasmonic leech in that list?:D
I included everything in that list. Is everything balanced in that list? I did not claim everything in the list was. I said let's take a look at what else comes in at 1000 Zen and that's what it was. Simple as that...
Btw, you seem to have gotten the concept of "balance" wrong. Balance doesn't mean that a console need to be as bad as the "Tachyon Detection Field." The Tachyon Detection Field isn't balanced, because it sucks too much to be balanced.
Balance does not mean that X should be as bad as Y nor as good as Z. Balance means that X, Y, and Z should all be comparable - they may be situational, but they would still be comparable in those specific situations - thus, they would be balanced.
When a console (majority of the list) is not worth a slot in any situation, it's not balanced.
That obviously gets into opinions. Different people build for different things and different situations. Person A may judge the value of X as one thing while Player B may judge the value of Y as another thing. In looking at balance, one needs to step away from their personal feelings and their skewed views to look at whether an item is potentially balanced in a given scenario compared an item at like cost.
When a console (plasmonic leech) is a must have in all situations, it's not balanced.
But Leech is not a must have in all situations. Is it still something that many would consider OP in the situations where it does apply? Yes, a strong case can be made for that when comparing it to the other items. That it is a must have in all situations though...is simply not the case. That's where personal bias oft flaws discussions of balance, because so many people are incapable of looking beyond their own limited views.
Ppl take off valedore console for another crit or turn rate console in borg stfs and easier pve contents regularly. Put it back on in pvp or voth stfs, where they wanted the extra heal to survive.
Perhaps if you were communicating something other than assumptions...there might be something to comprehend? As is, it comes off as the typical whining of the fail PvE player that gives the average PvE player a bad name...
ME, a fail PVE player? OOOOKKKKkkkkk....I think we are on different intellectual planes....not even goin to waste the effort to address your comment.
ME, a fail PVE player? OOOOKKKKkkkkk....I think we are on different intellectual plains....not even goin to waste the effort to address your comment.
And you spoke of my having comprehension issues? Did I call you a fail PvE player? No, I said you were simply whining like one...there's a difference. I don't know diddly squat about your capabilities in the game...but your crying in the thread is pretty obvious.
Add 3 turrets to the rear use CRF they will proc a lot and keep steady shield heals comming
Front weapons can be DHC's or DBB's with bfaw for the larger heals... players choice
need more heals use DC's with csv
heals will outstrip incomming damage most of the time in pve
2x aux to batt 3 purple techs
1x dem
a tss + Hz
eps and a ET
a rsp if you have the slot
Valdore heal boat
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
And you spoke of my having comprehension issues? Did I call you a fail PvE player? No, I said you were simply whining like one...there's a difference. I don't know diddly squat about your capabilities in the game...but your crying in the thread is pretty obvious.
No, but you were alluding to it, that's enough to show how much you know, about anything....
No, but you were alluding to it, that's enough to show how much you know, about anything....
I don't allude to things.
I also don't call out specific players on being bad in the game. I'm not fond of the term noob, etc, etc, etc. Not everybody's going to be at the same skill level as somebody, and calling somebody a noob or saying they're bad at the game is in no way helpful to them. Wouldn't it be better to see where they are having problems? Then either pass along information that's been passed to you or point them in the direction of somebody that could help them? That's my preference in dealing with things...
...but somebody whining on the forums is just somebody whining on the forums.
So it wasn't a case that Hilbert was some butthurt PvPer that couldn't kill somebody. Hilbert collects data. He looks at/analyzes the data. He saw something. He said, "Hey guys..."
Simple as that...so folks that come out of the blue and attack him as being some butthurt PvPer that couldn't kill somebody...well, they pretty much come off as one of those whining fail PvE players that need every crutch in the game to do things that even the barely average player can do without them....doesn't mean that they are a fail PvE player, but they're sure crying like one.
How did you manage such a polite reply? I spit soda out laughing when I read what he said...it just - I mean - it just blew my mind what he said about hilbert.
Well it is simple really. People that say hurtful and insulting things are typically attempting to gain satisfaction by causing an emotional outburst in others. I see through that and refuse to deny them the pleasure. I've seen comments like that for years all over the place and in real life. They don't usually even phase me anymore. Maybe if people got a little more creative with their insults I might start taking offense again.
The console is fine because for 98% of people who use it, they get low proc and balanced/reasonable heals. The console is therefore a perfectly balanced game mechanic.
For the high DPS players which are probably <1% of the playerbase, they get better heals. But the reason they win is not because of valdore, it's because they are good players with overwhelmingly high DPS.
If 98% of the playerbase can't get insane heals out of the console, then adding a cap on the maximum shield heal and a cap on the frequency shouldn't be a problem at all. It is logical and it would bring balance to the console in comparison to other consoles.
No, but you were alluding to it, that's enough to show how much you know, about anything....
Honestly, enough of the insults already. You, porchsong, and noblet have continually tried to disrupt and derail this thread through uncreative insulting remarks. Such remarks are illogical and they fail to demonstrate sound reasoning as to why you believe the console should remain in its current state.
Red stuff 1. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that
Red stuff 2. I didn't mention aux2bat
No you did not. but the A2b fiasco at its core has a similar problem. It is not one thin which is broken but a few good things working together to create "Op-ness"
Red stuff 3. At the risk of sounding as juvenile as I am...you started it with L2P reply. :P
I( might have confused you with someone else and if so, i apologize.
I agree, let's stay on topic...good show.
Normal stuff 1. Let's just let this one go
Normal stuff 2/3. ive killed many romulans too, l2play is a rather offensive call out..now back to the console debate...and just the console debate
Normal stuff 4.see you there, maybe..possibly..i have other priorities...handle is dahm@acceleron. Glad to know it's an open challenge and not a creeper/stalker insta challenge at every moment kinda deal
i dont remember ever seeing you in kerrat. Honorable combat is always fun. At tom crusie said in the last samurai, "I'll look for you on the field."
Cheers
wall of text below. if you are actively in this debate, you should read it. if youre just going to scroll to the end i will try...TRY to summarize, but dont blame me when you debate without all the information.
Getting back to the debate:
No one has:
1. ran my proposed test to getting hard data. honestly both sides NEED these results. I think they could be the swing needed.
2. no one has addressed the power issue. all you guys have done is push it aside and ignore it and this simply will not due. The fact is, without the valdore console(VC), you have an entire faction worth of ships which are at 160 power while everyone else is at 200. youre side has said the counter for this is the battle cloak, and sing powers. Now, i consider myself a student of war and as such i look at these aspects with a tactical mind. YOU MUST consider a total picture when looking at nerfing/buffing. not CANNOT only look at one thing in question but that one thing affects and is affected by everything else.This is why i bring up many things when considering a console and whether it truely is broken. a "total picture" must be seen. Considering being SUPER OP in PVE is irrealivant because of the ease of PVE and let fact that pve isnt here complaining......the context i will be discussing in PVP only. Let examine each of these to see their true tactical worth:
we will start with the battle cloak.
Battle cloak, or BC for the sake of this debate is a cool ability. It allows one to control his participation in the battle with an amount of risk. the risks are, lost of shields and a brief openness allowong an enemy to kill you IF they are fast enough. Granted their ARE some rewards to this such as the bonus dmg upon exiting cloak but make no mistake. BC is intended to give the play control over when and how he fights. This has much more power tin this regard than normal cloak which only allows one to decide when and IF he fights. BC, in addition to what normal cloak allows, gives one the power to exit battle at will. Essentially makes the player able to retreat with little drawback. One thing to note however, other than this and the 40% bonus damage, there is NO way to use BC to kill, only to set up attacks and exit battle. that is all. The +40% only lasts for 5-10 seconds if that, more with the scimitar which i will get to in a moment. the abuse bonus encourages a play style which rewards cloaking and decloaking repeatedly. THIS means a ship is and never should be if the fight for long. and the ships are designed that way in game. ALL romulans ships are less sturdy than FED/KDF ships. the reason for THAT is the -40 power which i will get to. BC by itself cant kill, it is a "set up" and "retreating" tool. thats all. A powerful one yes, but a NON-killing tool. YES it does make killing or "Vaping" possible, but like many things, no own its own.
Singularity powers or SP
Overcharge:
First up we have Overcharge. this is a poor power. it reduces DPS....Yes reduces DPS. your crits are reduced(unsure on this one) and power is set and maintained at 100, not 125. this means you cannot overcap weapons and the weapon do less power than they should be. now you ARE firing faster, but at a reduce power amount so you break even in that regard however, if you would of simply hit CRF instead, you would have done more DPS and that is why you rarely see it used. It is why you wont kill anyone with it, it is impractical and thus, NOT very useful.... Virtually useless i truth.
Thats one down.
Jump:
Jump is one of my favorites it allows one to jump 5k ahead of their position while creating a hazard. Said hazard does do damage BUT it isnt any thing that will kill another player. Its pull effect in easily escaped as well. the good thing it does do is decrease Acc but even this only aids the romulan in escape by reducing the chance of being hit. And this is a good thing too because ANY SP causes the cloak to go on a 5 second CD. for those 5 seconds, anything can happen and if you jumped, you were in trouble when you jumped meaning, youre in trouble for another 5 seconds at least. there it also the issue ofr jump telling your Opponent your intentions. you jumped, youre next move is to cloak. GW and TB should be THEIR next move to prevent your escape. Honestly it is easier to simply cloak first, THEN jump to dump you sing power levels which REDUCE your cloak and stealth. Contrary to popular believe it does break lock. ships may disappear and when the reappear, youre still locked on them....at least my ships are when i am fighting romulans. what could be the cause of that is adapted maco shielding procing. So it doesnt break lock... and if escape is why your doing it, and jump tells your Opponent theres a chance youre about the cloak and a five second window where they can prevent it, and because of ALL THAT you cloak first.......how does jump REALLY help you? It doesnt.
thats two down.
Warp Shadow or WS:
This one is another of my favorites the little toy creates copies of your ship. NON-combat copies which confuse torps and pets. while hell for carriers using the romulan plasme torp, they should be in pvp ANYWAY and i have to wonder why youre needing this against such a set up...unless youre troll and if so, for the laughs please continue...moving on, the shadows confuse pets and destructible torps. It also bossts your stealth in a brief cloak-like effect. but there are some things to note. while suddenly there are at most five copies of your ship for a total of six, you toon name is STILL above the real you screaming, "THE REAL ONE IS HERE!!!! THE REAL ONE IS HERE!!!!" because of this, the escape value is somewhat reduced and if its the torps your trying to get waya from, why not just use shockwave? in the end this is the best ability for escaping and even then its not THAT great. it still causes the 5 second cloak CD. the pluses are that for a spilt second, in all the chaos, you might cuase your opponent to lock on to one of the copies giving you the time needed to escape. You hit WS spam copies, and i second later the power cloaks you. the 5 second CD elapses and you hit the real cloak maintaining your disappearing act. But you STILL cant kill another player with it so how it this OP?
First kinda, KINDA useful one.
Quantum Absorbtion or QA:
this is another OK one. you get an shield heal, an effect like a secondary hull worth of HP, and a sheild heal over time. At first glance this sound awesome, in practice....not so much. if you are in trouble, and you would be to be hitting this power, you should know a few things. You arent cloaking for 5 seconds and i hope you can survive that long, the plus hull points can be cleared and eroded by a decent volley, the shield will barely be noticed and the shield heal over time will be noticed even less so. i honestly didnt know the shields were even buffed and ive been using my rom for a year now. will it save you? in pve maybe but we arent talking pve. i dont see any borg here complaining that the VC is broke so PVP it is. In PVP this will not save you. it will only prolong your life for a second or two. this means you have a bit more time to watch your ship die. this is the order of events: youre dying, you hit QA, your hull buffs, your bonus hull disappears under fire, you die. STILL. it will NEVER kill another player. it barely has an effect on you, much less them. in pvp, this is useless.
thats One KINDA useful power and three useless ones......
Plasma Shockwave or PS:
Shockwave is ok, it will kill destructible torps, which if your shields are up, wont hurt you, and it MIGHT kill hanger pets. if they are a few of the stronger ones will laugh at you. (looking at you romulan drones...) this power ignores sheilds which is AWESOME but the damage it does is SOOOO poor, most player ships wont even budge percentage wise....if they do, you might get 1-2% damage out of it, which is healed buy innate hull healing......this, while an offensinve power WILL never kill a pve target that your weapons didnt ready weaken and couldnt finish off faster, not to mention an actual player who wont even notice the effects of it beyond, "OHHH the colors!"
thats one, ONE kinda useful power and four useless ones.
THAT is a fair trade for -40 power SERIOUSLY?! Now i know what weve been told but honestly, those powers are a joke. A JOKE. they are in no way OP, or even all that useful to be honest. So please, lets not bring up SP again.
NOw i know what youre thinking, "what the bloody hell does that have to do with the OP-ness of the VC?!"
Simple. That -40 power. As you can see those powers above are pretty useless. and the only thing worth mentioning is BC. but that -40 MUST STILL BE ADDRESSED. and its effects on the ships must be addresses as well.
Someone said the -40 isnt really spread out over the 4 systems. you simply start with 160 power instead of 200. That is true but what this means is there is less power to go around.
let consider my current Advance Romulan Dyson. At idle my power levels are Weapons 116/100, shields 44/20, engines 53/25 aux 66/15. as you can see and would imagine, as a science ship i have gear to boost aux. but to put that in perspective lets look at my Fed's Fleet Avenger. Weapons are 123/100, shields are 57/35, engines 82/50 and aux is 40/15. now these are my normal power levels. OF COURSE if i am going defensive these level chance a lot. but on the norm, this is where they are set. now, i know the shield are what we are discussing because THAT is what the VC affect so lets give the avenger thr SAME power as to shields as the dyson. Shield power on the Avenger goes to 45/20 but engine power is NUTS. 94/65. As you can see, the fed ship has far more speed more matter what set up like this. this means more defense and more mobility. But the avenger IS a crusier so maybe engine power and speed isnt you thing. lets match engine power with he dyson. engines now at 60/25...still more than the dyson...but that aux power is now nuts. heals are suddenly way more powerful. (aux power is 69/55) i cant even bring aux power down without other stuff going up and weapon are maxed out.
Now, what does that all mean? engines and shields, now matter what i do WILL ALWAYS be higher than on a romulan ship. there is no way around this. Now we all knew this already, that whole 160 power vs 200 power. but as you can see those SP are a joke and the only thing worth -40 is the BC. This power issue means that two systems will ALWAYS be lower (at idle) than fed/kdf ships. but since we are talking shields and we have established the the Shield power is either ALWAYS goingto be lower than fed/KDF ships OR the raise Shield power something else will be lacking lets see if we can find what power or the lack there of, does to ones shields.
as you can see, power to shields directly affects both regeneration AND innate resistances. in short, romulan shield are both, less resistant and regenerates slower than FED and KDF shields.
THIS IS FACT. without the VC romulan ships will have set power levels to shields the same as fed/kdf does. why is THAT a problem? look at that powerlevels page again. in order to dump more power to shields, romulan ship will have to lose one of three things or a combination of the three. those three things are, less DPS through less power to weapons,(there goes overcapping) or less engine power which means less speed and maybe less defense. Less defense mean the romulan ship will be hit more and take more DMG, or lastly, less aux power which means less effectiveness of a whole long list of powers AND reduce cloak effectiveness, AND less perception. the roumlan must choose on one of these or a small amount of ALL of these just to match shield power. OR they can reduce power to shield, have ok amounts of power in the other systems, and use the VC to cover the difference in shields. the VC isnt OP, it is NEEDED and without it romulan ships are just weaker. why do you thin SOO many romulans are in lockbox ships? the reduced power levels are a BIG DEAL.
in the end those who are wanting a nerf to romulan ship are REALLY asking for a lot bigger nerf than they realize.
Now, if you can disprove ANY of the above WITH HARD FACTS AND NOT YOUR OPINION then i would reconsider my viewpoint however, no one has even come close to doing that.
TL:DR
Romulan power levels are the reason for the VC AND OTHER CONSOLES. No, you cant just say, "Singularity power and the cloak are the trade off," and if you do you fail to realiize it is a very poor trade off and the devs thought so too otherwise they would of even made the VC and other consoles to rectify the problems of lower power.
Now please, bring up FACTS not you bloody opinions based on a lack to kill romulans in pv or a lack to compete with romulans in pve.
the only, THE ONLY romulan thing the is broken in pve is the scimitar and while yes i have one, I HATE IT SOOOO MUCH and never really use it. in fact i myself am deciding on a lockbox ship which will not cost my soul to get for my romulan. i will probley end up in one of the Talshiar ships. I just have to come up with a good reason stroy-wise for him to have it considering he HATES the talshiar....
The console is fine because for 98% of people who use it, they get low proc and balanced/reasonable heals. The console is therefore a perfectly balanced game mechanic.
For the high DPS players which are probably <1% of the playerbase, they get better heals. But the reason they win is not because of valdore, it's because they are good players with overwhelmingly high DPS.
When 1 high dps player comes in with a scmitar and this console he ruins the pve content for the other 4 players .....he can complete the content on his own because nothing can hurt him and thanks to several other broken things has more dps then the other 4 players combined... just because of his race/class and ship...no skill involved there
And its a lot more than 1% in Pve... you should try some Pve from what you have wrote you havent did any in a very long time
For PVE this console is also finely balanced. The more DPS you do the more aggro you get, it stands to reason that you receive more heals from the console.
with few heals and the console a Tac ship with a Tac caption can tank the hardest PvE content better than a engineer...I do it every day that is not balenced its absurd and game breaking
Stop calling out things as imbalanced just because you can't be bothered to put some thought processes into developing a countering strategy.
NPCs cant counter it......For pve its unbalenced by a HUGE margin . put some thought process to work on that
your points may or may not be valid in PvP
you have much to learn about balence and Pve
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Add 3 turrets to the rear use CRF they will proc a lot and keep steady shield heals comming
Front weapons can be DHC's or DBB's with bfaw for the larger heals... players choice
need more heals use DC's with csv
heals will outstrip incomming damage most of the time in pve
2x aux to batt 3 purple techs
1x dem
a tss + Hz
eps and a ET
a rsp if you have the slot
Valdore heal boat
it MIGHT out pace incoming DPS during STF but honestly, SO WHAT? how is the VC's perfomance in pve even an issue?! we all are there to grind. what? you want that grind lengthened by teammate death or do yu wnat to get in and out so you can play the game to have fun? or is this just a grind game job to you?
The console is fine because for 98% of people who use it, they get low proc and balanced/reasonable heals. The console is therefore a perfectly balanced game mechanic.
For the high DPS players which are probably <1% of the playerbase, they get better heals. But the reason they win is not because of valdore, it's because they are good players with overwhelmingly high DPS.
When 1 high dps player comes in with a scmitar and this console he ruins the pve content for the other 4 players .....he can complete the content on his own because nothing can hurt him and thanks to several other broken things has more dps then the other 4 players combined... just because of his race/class and ship...no skill involved there
And its a lot more than 1% in Pve... you should try some Pve from what you have wrote you havent did any in a very long time
For PVE this console is also finely balanced. The more DPS you do the more aggro you get, it stands to reason that you receive more heals from the console.
with few heals and the console a Tac ship with a Tac caption can tank the hardest PvE content better than a engineer...I do it every day that is not balenced its absurd and game breaking
Stop calling out things as imbalanced just because you can't be bothered to put some thought processes into developing a countering strategy.
NPCs cant counter it......For pve its unbalenced by a HUGE margin . put some thought process to work on that
your points may or may not be valid in PvP
you have much to learn about balence and Pve
Like I said b4, the PROBLEM is with content being too easy, not equipment being imbalanced...
Stop trying to nerf every bloody thing in this game just because content is outdated.
And idgaf what Hilbert does, he's spreading misinformation based on misleading data - THAT IS MY POINT...idiots
As a member of Cryptic's target audience (the casual player), I think this console is a bit too weak. I still find myself getting blown up from time to time in the challenging content that is Elite Mode. I went with full defensive passives, mk xii purple field generators, specced heavily into tanking skills, elite fleet shield, and the valdore console and still I find that "respawn" button far too often for my taste.
I think that either this console needs a buff, or that estfs and other content needs to be nerfed to a more less frustrating to participate in level, it is currently almost too difficult and does not contain enough cutscenes for my liking.
it MIGHT out pace incoming DPS during STF but honestly, SO WHAT? how is the VC's perfomance in pve even an issue?! we all are there to grind. what? you want that grind lengthened by teammate death or do yu wnat to get in and out so you can play the game to have fun? or is this just a grind game job to you?
the only time the VC should truly matter is PVP.
Well actually i want to have fun in the STF...you know team work stuff like that...some kind of struggle this is where most of the players in the entire game come to have fun
Not be in and out in 3 minutes because of ships/consoles that render the content into a 3 minute happy farmer
This ship and console needs to be balenced for PvE
your fun/game may be PvP thats awesome but more than 90% of the players are in PvE
just count the numbers in the que's
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Hilbert was talking about the AVERAGE time between activations out of several thousand PvP matches. Through this he was demonstrating that, despite much less frequency of use (FED/KDF can't use it), the Valdore console was still superior to everything else.
I'm not 100% sure wether you mean the right thing, so to be on the safe side I'll clarify these averages a bit. The averages are taking over all players who actually used this ability. So EPtS1 averages are from players who use EPtS1, Valdore averages are from players who use the valdore console etc.
As a member of Cryptic's target audience (the casual player), I think this console is a bit too weak. I still find myself getting blown up from time to time in the challenging content that is Elite Mode. I went with full defensive passives, mk xii purple field generators, specced heavily into tanking skills, elite fleet shield, and the valdore console and still I find that "respawn" button far too often for my taste.
I think that either this console needs a buff, or that estfs and other content needs to be nerfed to a more less frustrating to participate in level, it is currently almost too difficult and does not contain enough cutscenes for my liking.
I see what your problem is; you've gone over tanked your ship. you've gone turtle, and not the fun mutant ninja kind, the kind of turtle that tries to eat a cherry tomato that keeps rolling away from him.
what you need to do is remove all your tanky bits including the valdore console and do something beneficial for your team... like shoot something.
also you shouldn't run the Valdore console in ESTFs. if you have the damage you don't need the tank and there are other consoles that improve your damage.
Well actually i want to have fun in the STF...you know team work stuff like that...some kind of struggle this is where most of the players in the entire game come to have fun
Not be in and out in 3 minutes because of ships/consoles that render the content into a 3 minute happy farmer
This ship and console needs to be balenced for PvE
your fun/game may be PvP thats awesome but more than 90% of the players are in PvE
just count the numbers in the que's
Let me get this straight. you want to VC nerfed because you want to have your ideaof fun and OP players are coming in doing the mission too fast....
is that it?
If so i have good new for you. Get your frends together and STOP PUGGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that way you can play the missions as you like without riuning what someone eles may consider fum. MAYBE being super OP is fun for those is scimmies. MAYBE they want the VC buffed so they dont have to worry other players are dying and slowing them down. there are more people playing this game than you.
Overhealing is mentioned very often. Usually it works like this:
If all your shield facings are at a perfect 100%, using shield heal won't record a heal.
If there is at least one shield facing that is below 100%, the shield heal will record it's full magnitude for each of the four facings.
In other words: healing is only recorded when one needed at least a little bit of the heal.
I have tried to come up with estimates for the valdore console of the amount of healing that is wasted due to overhealing, but this is a difficult taks because the log files don't provide a possibility to see the absolute amount of shields that a ship has at a certain point in time. Plotting incoming damage against shield heals allows one to make some guesses, but since that requires complete log files and not just the aggregate data that the leaderboard provides, I only have my personal log files for this.
Overhealing is mentioned very often. Usually it works like this:
If all your shield facings are at a perfect 100%, using shield heal won't record a heal.
If there is at least one shield facing that is below 100%, the shield heal will record it's full magnitude for each of the four facings.
In other words: healing is only recorded when one needed at least a little bit of the heal.
I have tried to come up with estimates of the overhealing for the valdore console, but so far I don't have anything truly reliable.
Then might I suggest you get some RELIABLE data before spouting nonsense on the forums which could lead to a nerf that would have substantial and far reaching consenquences on gameplay for MANY people?!?!?!
Overhealing is mentioned very often. Usually it works like this:
If all your shield facings are at a perfect 100%, using shield heal won't record a heal.
If there is at least one shield facing that is below 100%, the shield heal will record it's full magnitude for each of the four facings.
In other words: healing is only recorded when one needed at least a little bit of the heal.
I have tried to come up with estimates of the overhealing for the valdore console, but so far I don't have anything truly reliable.
Still, in PvP with all the shots that are fired you are guaranteed that you'll nearly never get to have all facings completely up; a turret, beam, whatever can damage shields. Considering that romulans have less power levels, their shield regeneration is tremendously weak when you give full power to weapons.
If you can keep shields strong as romulan and hardly ever falling you're not dealing a lot of damage, therefore not even running the console.
Let me get this straight. you want to VC nerfed because you want to have your ideaof fun and OP players are coming in doing the mission too fast....
is that it?
If so i have good new for you. Get your frends together and STOP PUGGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that way you can play the missions as you like without riuning what someone eles may consider fum. MAYBE being super OP is fun for those is scimmies. MAYBE they want the VC buffed so they dont have to worry other players are dying and slowing them down. there are more people playing this game than you.
your right there are a lot more players than me
Thats what has you scared huh ? your on the tiny end of the player base
and it will be nerfed ..just a matter of time and bringing it to the attention of the Dev's
Slow me down ? thats a laff I dont need a scim a romulan and a valdore console to do the STFs ... Do you ?
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Thats what has you scared huh ? your on the tiny end of the player base
and it will be nerfed ..just a matter of time and bringing it to the attention of the Dev's
Slow me down ? thats a laff I dont need a scim a romulan and a valdore console to do the STFs ... Do you ?
"Said the PvE hero cornered".
From what ESTF's fog you've came from?
I don't mind completing queues with my Scimitar and Valdore console. Frankly, I got bored enough of IA that I don't anymore. PvP is the way.
I see what your problem is; you've gone over tanked your ship. you've gone turtle, and not the fun mutant ninja kind, the kind of turtle that tries to eat a cherry tomato that keeps rolling away from him.
what you need to do is remove all your tanky bits including the valdore console and do something beneficial for your team... like shoot something.
also you shouldn't run the Valdore console in ESTFs. if you have the damage you don't need the tank and there are other consoles that improve your damage.
Well I'm just gonna start off by saying that I fly the Fleet D'deridex. It is an absolute fantastic ship, unfortunately its a glass cannon though, it tends to die a lot. I load it up with a lot of the heals and the consoles to try and make it survive a little better.
So when I warp into an elite queue, the first thing that I do is really just take a step away from the keyboard and talk to my bridge officers on what the plan of action is for this mission. Normally is a nice useful fellow named Toran Khev. Throughout my journey as a Romulan Officer, he as been a valuable insight into what I should and should not do. Basically whatever he says goes.
Then Toran Khev, or another one of my useful bridge officers will tell me what they recommend I do, and then I take another minute or two and deliberate on their advice and whether or not their background is really suited to what the mission will entail and whether or not I should listen to them. Sometimes I find that the bridge officer who responds to me doesn't really have the best grasp on the situation at hand, so at that point I flash back to my orb experience with Captain Sisko, and ask myself, what would Sisko do? Pretty much at this point, I just leave it up to the Prophets to guide me to victory.
So after I have established a plan of action and have received the Prophets blessing, I direct my helmsman to lay in a course for the enemy, and inform him to use some various attack patterns. So now we're on our way to engage the Borg, I get on the ship's intercom and inform my crew that the situation is grave, this is the same exact species that the Federation had such a hard time with at wolf 359, so they need to know that its gettin real.
After informing my crew of the dangers that we will be facing and motivating them to do their duty, we begin to combat the Borg. Thankfully I have some nice polaron beams installed on my ship that I obtained on a diplomatic mission to the Dominion. My trusty tactical officer, Toran Khev begins to fire at will, since I trust his judgment on what to shoot at. Thanks to a nifty little combo between my bridge officers and my duty officers I am able to use a fancy ability called Auxillary to Battery. This allows Toran Khev to fire more often. This Auxillary to Battery thing is much more than a bridge officer ability, its more of a lifestyle choice.
All of a sudden my ship is in a tractor beam and cannot move, luckily my weapons are still firing and thanks to a semi useful valdore console, I am gaining a little bit of shields back every once in awhile. Unfortunately this console is not enough to keep my ship and its brave valiant crew alive, so we succumb to the borg and are forced to respawn.
So little by little myself and the brave fleet that I am apart of in this queue to stop the Borg with begin to whittle down the giant monstrosity that is the Borg vessels. By the time its all said and done, we have all respawned several times. We're gonna need a bigger fleet.
Now a big tactical cube warps in, this thing is massive and carries a lot of firepower. It somehow manages to drain my shields even though there isn't a debuff icon present while my shields are failing, the ability needs nerfed and the icon needs fixed btw, and I die again since my valdore console simply isn't doing a good enough job of healing me. So my brave team is out there fighting the Tactical Cube probably worried for their crews well being since they just saw how quickly my vessel was defeated.
A minute later I finally get back into the game and I fly towards the tactical cube and fire everything. Mines, cannons, torpedos and beams. Everything must go. About after fighting just the Tactical cube for 5-7 minutes it eventually is defeated, but we paid a heavy price.
Also how are we supposed to be reaching these 15 minute optional timers? This hardly seems long enough for such a intensely challenging Borg invasion. Doesn't hardly seem fair that the best of the best might make it, but the average player fails it every time. Just give everyone the marks off the bat and I think it would make it more enjoyable.
Anyways, thats my Elite Stf experience, it is rather time consuming and difficult.
Well I'm just gonna start off by saying that I fly the Fleet D'deridex. It is an absolute fantastic ship, unfortunately its a glass cannon though, it tends to die a lot. I load it up with a lot of the heals and the consoles to try and make it survive a little better.
So when I warp into an elite queue, the first thing that I do is really just take a step away from the keyboard and talk to my bridge officers on what the plan of action is for this mission. Normally is a nice useful fellow named Toran Khev. Throughout my journey as a Romulan Officer, he as been a valuable insight into what I should and should not do. Basically whatever he says goes.
Then Toran Khev, or another one of my useful bridge officers will tell me what they recommend I do, and then I take another minute or two and deliberate on their advice and whether or not their background is really suited to what the mission will entail and whether or not I should listen to them. Sometimes I find that the bridge officer who responds to me doesn't really have the best grasp on the situation at hand, so at that point I flash back to my orb experience with Captain Sisko, and ask myself, what would Sisko do? Pretty much at this point, I just leave it up to the Prophets to guide me to victory.
So after I have established a plan of action and have received the Prophets blessing, I direct my helmsman to lay in a course for the enemy, and inform him to use some various attack patterns. So now we're on our way to engage the Borg, I get on the ship's intercom and inform my crew that the situation is grave, this is the same exact species that the Federation had such a hard time with at wolf 359, so they need to know that its gettin real.
After informing my crew of the dangers that we will be facing and motivating them to do their duty, we begin to combat the Borg. Thankfully I have some nice polaron beams installed on my ship that I obtained on a diplomatic mission to the Dominion. My trusty tactical officer, Toran Khev begins to fire at will, since I trust his judgment on what to shoot at. Thanks to a nifty little combo between my bridge officers and my duty officers I am able to use a fancy ability called Auxillary to Battery. This allows Toran Khev to fire more often. This Auxillary to Battery thing is much more than a bridge officer ability, its more of a lifestyle choice.
All of a sudden my ship is in a tractor beam and cannot move, luckily my weapons are still firing and thanks to a semi useful valdore console, I am gaining a little bit of shields back every once in awhile. Unfortunately this console is not enough to keep my ship and its brave valiant crew alive, so we succumb to the borg and are forced to respawn.
So little by little myself and the brave fleet that I am apart of in this queue to stop the Borg with begin to whittle down the giant monstrosity that is the Borg vessels. By the time its all said and done, we have all respawned several times. We're gonna need a bigger fleet.
Now a big tactical cube warps in, this thing is massive and carries a lot of firepower. It somehow manages to drain my shields even though there isn't a debuff icon present while my shields are failing, the ability needs nerfed and the icon needs fixed btw, and I die again since my valdore console simply isn't doing a good enough job of healing me. So my brave team is out there fighting the Tactical Cube probably worried for their crews well being since they just saw how quickly my vessel was defeated.
A minute later I finally get back into the game and I fly towards the tactical cube and fire everything. Mines, cannons, torpedos and beams. Everything must go. About after fighting just the Tactical cube for 5-7 minutes it eventually is defeated, but we paid a heavy price.
Also how are we supposed to be reaching these 15 minute optional timers? This hardly seems long enough for such a intensely challenging Borg invasion. Doesn't hardly seem fair that the best of the best might make it, but the average player fails it every time. Just give everyone the marks off the bat and I think it would make it more enjoyable.
Anyways, thats my Elite Stf experience, it is rather time consuming and difficult.
What the actual frak?!
Are you seriously using Dominion Polarons?! I don't even...
One thing you can note very often, that percentage chances and statistics are often not intuitively well understand. A 2.5 % proc sounds rare, but if you have, say 25 proc events per 8 seconds, that would actually amount to about a ~47 % chance to trigger it in those 8 seconds on average, and a 72 % chance after 16 seconds
mancom's statistics basically show us what the proc chance will amount to overall, taking into account how often people actually fire.
Honestly, enough of the insults already. You, porchsong, and noblet have continually tried to disrupt and derail this thread through uncreative insulting remarks. Such remarks are illogical and they fail to demonstrate sound reasoning as to why you believe the console should remain in its current state.
It seems to be more that someone set a nice trap so that the thread could be derailed and it worked reasonably well. It's a good tactic to derail a thread and bury the actual arguments.
In short, personal attacks should simply be reported and ignored, focus on the actual arguments about the items in question. Unless you think that won't "win" you the topic.
If 98% of the playerbase can't get insane heals out of the console, then adding a cap on the maximum shield heal and a cap on the frequency shouldn't be a problem at all. It is logical and it would bring balance to the console in comparison to other consoles.
Indeed. Of course, it may not be what is mechanically the best option for cryptic, depending on how easy or difficult it is to implement such a cap.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
From what ESTF's fog you've came from?
I don't mind completing queues with my Scimitar and Valdore console. Frankly, I got bored enough of IA that I don't anymore. PvP is the way.
So say's the PvP hero..............Bring the biggest crutch you have you probably need it
I dont mind pointing out OP conso;es gear ect...................Its what i do inbetween Estf's for fun
Have fun in the PvP Ques we will get along just fine in PvE without you
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
This thread turn out to be another "nerf defensive stuff so we can kill faster other players but dont touch offensive stuff (ofc so we can kill faster...)". Its hypocrisy at its best. Everybody its mad about powercreep, but got forbid to do anything about it...
But Leech is not a must have in all situations. Is it still something that many would consider OP in the situations where it does apply? Yes, a strong case can be made for that when comparing it to the other items. That it is a must have in all situations though...is simply not the case. That's where personal bias oft flaws discussions of balance, because so many people are incapable of looking beyond their own limited views.
That's a ludicrous statement.
You are kidding right??? Every player and their grandma are using Leach. Its not 60-80m for nothing... If Cryptic would do some data mining would see that its the most used console in the game. Thats an imbalanced item, not the valdore console.
And as other ppl said, all this presented data about the valdore console, from a minority of playerbase, its contains far too many variables to be taken into consideration... It spreads missleading informations based on a small player base... An example: that average EPtS freqvency use... Its ridicoulous, the majority of players base have 2 copies and are running EPtS constantly. Also alot of, if not most of the players from this colected data are far better equiped and skilled then the average player. In some way I would dare to call them exploiters, as in bypassing or bending game mechanics and loopholes. The point is the data it favors a minority of players and cant be applied or used as an argument for the majority of playerbase to nerf an item. Nerf the players from reaching soo much DPS, wich has gotten out of hand, not an item that only reflects that...
But I am sure Cryptic can look at the full picture, colecting data mining from all players, and can judge better on this.
Comments
Let's address this, eh? Although it's been previously addressed in the thread, let's address this again, eh?
While people are going to throw around different numbers...2%, 10%, whatever - as the number of folks that are potentially skewing the benefits of this console; the mere fact that a number can be suggested tells you that the console is not perfectly balanced.
A perfectly balanced console would take into consideration the outer bounds and have the system in place to deal with them so that they those edge cases would not occur. It would be a simple case of applying a limit (a "cap" of sorts) to the potential results of the console, thus ensuring that regardless of the player or the situation that it was operating within a designed range.
So we know from a dev post and from patch notes a couple of weeks later was it - that initially it was not working within the range they wanted and so it was tuned. The question that arises from that change was whether the tuning was future-proofed or if it was a temporary fix at the current point of time.
You see, that tuning took place in June 2013. Damage in the game was at a certain level in June of 2013...that is not the same level of damage that exists currently in May of 2014. Even for that 90-98% - or whatever fictional number one wants to throw at it - they have likely seen an increase in damage. It's just the nature of the game.
In a PvP setting, this would obviously also mean that incoming damage has increased. However, in the PvE setting - there is no hierarchy of content. It is all designed as potentially being the first content that somebody at 50 would run. Thus, there's absolutely no expectation for incoming damage to have increased - but the outgoing damage has obviously increased.
So we've got the obvious issue of it not being balanced - offered by those suggesting it is balanced. We've got the potential issue of it not being balanced - based on how it was tuned last year.
Is that it?
It's a console from a 1000 Zen boat. What are the consoles/items like on other 1000 Zen boats?
There's the Point Defense System from the Heavy Escort Refit.
There's the Tachyon Detection Field from the Advanced Research Vessel.
There's the Disruptor Quad Cannons [Dmg]x4 from the Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey.
There's the Bio-Neural Warhead from the SuQob Raptor.
There's the Magnetometric Generator from the Koro't'inga Battle Cruiser.
There's the Plasmonic Leech from the Vandal Destroyer.
There's the Barrier Field Generator from the Phalanx Science Vessel.
So all in all, when folks say that it is a balanced console - while pointing out that it is not a balanced console themselves - well...there's going to be folks that question whether the console is actually balanced or not...
porchsong,
This post from you was even funnier than your previous post.
Do I suck at the game? I freely admit such. I even argue with folks that say I do not, trying to get them to see some reason and accept that I suck at the game. So telling me that I suck at the game...in thinking that it would upset me...well, it makes about as much sense as anything else you have ever said.
Do I think I am an authority on game mechanics? I freely admit that at best I do some grunt work getting some data for all the actual folks with the brainpower to figure things out. I even argue with folks that say that I'm some sort of mechanics guru, trying to get them to see some reason and accept that I'm just passing along information from the actual gurus - because I spend a Hell of a lot more time on the forums than they do. So telling me that I am ignorant of game mechanics...in thinking that it would upset me...well, it makes about as much sense as anything else you have ever said.
Am I ever wrong? Of course there are times when I am wrong. I freely admit when I am wrong. I do not mind being wrong, when it is actually a case that I am wrong, because in the end that means the right information will actually be shared with the players looking for information. So telling me that I am wrong at times...in thinking that would upset me...well, it makes about as much sense as anything else you have ever said.
I wish I could say that I was sorry that I do not have the fragile ego that you do and how horribly upsetting that must be to you, but it would be a lie - so I can't say I'm sorry.
Oh, by the way - it's Diet Mountain Dew...but then again, based on the rest of the post - paying attention is not one of your strong suits...
Good lord, you actually included plasmonic leech in that list?:D
Btw, you seem to have gotten the concept of "balance" wrong. Balance doesn't mean that a console need to be as bad as the "Tachyon Detection Field." The Tachyon Detection Field isn't balanced, because it sucks too much to be balanced.
When a console (majority of the list) is not worth a slot in any situation, it's not balanced.
When a console (plasmonic leech) is a must have in all situations, it's not balanced.
When a console (valedore) is situational, you consider putting it on or taking it off as needed, it's balanced.
No one in their right mind would ever take off their plasmonic leech anywhere.
No one in their right mind would ever waste a slot on tachyon detection field anywhere.
Ppl take off valedore console for another crit or turn rate console in borg stfs and easier pve contents regularly. Put it back on in pvp or voth stfs, where they wanted the extra heal to survive.
Perhaps if you were communicating something other than assumptions...there might be something to comprehend? As is, it comes off as the typical whining of the fail PvE player that gives the average PvE player a bad name...
You could remove PvP...and there would still be honest PvE players that would point out balance issues. Don't let your personal dishonesty ever cloud that fact...
I included everything in that list. Is everything balanced in that list? I did not claim everything in the list was. I said let's take a look at what else comes in at 1000 Zen and that's what it was. Simple as that...
Balance does not mean that X should be as bad as Y nor as good as Z. Balance means that X, Y, and Z should all be comparable - they may be situational, but they would still be comparable in those specific situations - thus, they would be balanced.
That obviously gets into opinions. Different people build for different things and different situations. Person A may judge the value of X as one thing while Player B may judge the value of Y as another thing. In looking at balance, one needs to step away from their personal feelings and their skewed views to look at whether an item is potentially balanced in a given scenario compared an item at like cost.
But Leech is not a must have in all situations. Is it still something that many would consider OP in the situations where it does apply? Yes, a strong case can be made for that when comparing it to the other items. That it is a must have in all situations though...is simply not the case. That's where personal bias oft flaws discussions of balance, because so many people are incapable of looking beyond their own limited views.
That is not enough to consider something balanced.
That's a ludicrous statement.
That's a ludicrous statement.
People do all sorts of things....
ME, a fail PVE player? OOOOKKKKkkkkk....I think we are on different intellectual planes....not even goin to waste the effort to address your comment.
And you spoke of my having comprehension issues? Did I call you a fail PvE player? No, I said you were simply whining like one...there's a difference. I don't know diddly squat about your capabilities in the game...but your crying in the thread is pretty obvious.
Add 3 turrets to the rear use CRF they will proc a lot and keep steady shield heals comming
Front weapons can be DHC's or DBB's with bfaw for the larger heals... players choice
need more heals use DC's with csv
heals will outstrip incomming damage most of the time in pve
2x aux to batt 3 purple techs
1x dem
a tss + Hz
eps and a ET
a rsp if you have the slot
Valdore heal boat
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
No, but you were alluding to it, that's enough to show how much you know, about anything....
I don't allude to things.
I also don't call out specific players on being bad in the game. I'm not fond of the term noob, etc, etc, etc. Not everybody's going to be at the same skill level as somebody, and calling somebody a noob or saying they're bad at the game is in no way helpful to them. Wouldn't it be better to see where they are having problems? Then either pass along information that's been passed to you or point them in the direction of somebody that could help them? That's my preference in dealing with things...
...but somebody whining on the forums is just somebody whining on the forums.
http://hilbertguide.com/
http://hilbertguide.com/datamining/
So it wasn't a case that Hilbert was some butthurt PvPer that couldn't kill somebody. Hilbert collects data. He looks at/analyzes the data. He saw something. He said, "Hey guys..."
Simple as that...so folks that come out of the blue and attack him as being some butthurt PvPer that couldn't kill somebody...well, they pretty much come off as one of those whining fail PvE players that need every crutch in the game to do things that even the barely average player can do without them....doesn't mean that they are a fail PvE player, but they're sure crying like one.
Well it is simple really. People that say hurtful and insulting things are typically attempting to gain satisfaction by causing an emotional outburst in others. I see through that and refuse to deny them the pleasure. I've seen comments like that for years all over the place and in real life. They don't usually even phase me anymore. Maybe if people got a little more creative with their insults I might start taking offense again.
If 98% of the playerbase can't get insane heals out of the console, then adding a cap on the maximum shield heal and a cap on the frequency shouldn't be a problem at all. It is logical and it would bring balance to the console in comparison to other consoles.
Honestly, enough of the insults already. You, porchsong, and noblet have continually tried to disrupt and derail this thread through uncreative insulting remarks. Such remarks are illogical and they fail to demonstrate sound reasoning as to why you believe the console should remain in its current state.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
wall of text below. if you are actively in this debate, you should read it. if youre just going to scroll to the end i will try...TRY to summarize, but dont blame me when you debate without all the information.
Getting back to the debate:
No one has:
1. ran my proposed test to getting hard data. honestly both sides NEED these results. I think they could be the swing needed.
2. no one has addressed the power issue. all you guys have done is push it aside and ignore it and this simply will not due. The fact is, without the valdore console(VC), you have an entire faction worth of ships which are at 160 power while everyone else is at 200. youre side has said the counter for this is the battle cloak, and sing powers. Now, i consider myself a student of war and as such i look at these aspects with a tactical mind. YOU MUST consider a total picture when looking at nerfing/buffing. not CANNOT only look at one thing in question but that one thing affects and is affected by everything else.This is why i bring up many things when considering a console and whether it truely is broken. a "total picture" must be seen. Considering being SUPER OP in PVE is irrealivant because of the ease of PVE and let fact that pve isnt here complaining......the context i will be discussing in PVP only. Let examine each of these to see their true tactical worth:
we will start with the battle cloak.
Battle cloak, or BC for the sake of this debate is a cool ability. It allows one to control his participation in the battle with an amount of risk. the risks are, lost of shields and a brief openness allowong an enemy to kill you IF they are fast enough. Granted their ARE some rewards to this such as the bonus dmg upon exiting cloak but make no mistake. BC is intended to give the play control over when and how he fights. This has much more power tin this regard than normal cloak which only allows one to decide when and IF he fights. BC, in addition to what normal cloak allows, gives one the power to exit battle at will. Essentially makes the player able to retreat with little drawback. One thing to note however, other than this and the 40% bonus damage, there is NO way to use BC to kill, only to set up attacks and exit battle. that is all. The +40% only lasts for 5-10 seconds if that, more with the scimitar which i will get to in a moment. the abuse bonus encourages a play style which rewards cloaking and decloaking repeatedly. THIS means a ship is and never should be if the fight for long. and the ships are designed that way in game. ALL romulans ships are less sturdy than FED/KDF ships. the reason for THAT is the -40 power which i will get to. BC by itself cant kill, it is a "set up" and "retreating" tool. thats all. A powerful one yes, but a NON-killing tool. YES it does make killing or "Vaping" possible, but like many things, no own its own.
Singularity powers or SP
Overcharge:
First up we have Overcharge. this is a poor power. it reduces DPS....Yes reduces DPS. your crits are reduced(unsure on this one) and power is set and maintained at 100, not 125. this means you cannot overcap weapons and the weapon do less power than they should be. now you ARE firing faster, but at a reduce power amount so you break even in that regard however, if you would of simply hit CRF instead, you would have done more DPS and that is why you rarely see it used. It is why you wont kill anyone with it, it is impractical and thus, NOT very useful.... Virtually useless i truth.
Thats one down.
Jump:
Jump is one of my favorites it allows one to jump 5k ahead of their position while creating a hazard. Said hazard does do damage BUT it isnt any thing that will kill another player. Its pull effect in easily escaped as well. the good thing it does do is decrease Acc but even this only aids the romulan in escape by reducing the chance of being hit. And this is a good thing too because ANY SP causes the cloak to go on a 5 second CD. for those 5 seconds, anything can happen and if you jumped, you were in trouble when you jumped meaning, youre in trouble for another 5 seconds at least. there it also the issue ofr jump telling your Opponent your intentions. you jumped, youre next move is to cloak. GW and TB should be THEIR next move to prevent your escape. Honestly it is easier to simply cloak first, THEN jump to dump you sing power levels which REDUCE your cloak and stealth. Contrary to popular believe it does break lock. ships may disappear and when the reappear, youre still locked on them....at least my ships are when i am fighting romulans. what could be the cause of that is adapted maco shielding procing. So it doesnt break lock... and if escape is why your doing it, and jump tells your Opponent theres a chance youre about the cloak and a five second window where they can prevent it, and because of ALL THAT you cloak first.......how does jump REALLY help you? It doesnt.
thats two down.
Warp Shadow or WS:
This one is another of my favorites the little toy creates copies of your ship. NON-combat copies which confuse torps and pets. while hell for carriers using the romulan plasme torp, they should be in pvp ANYWAY and i have to wonder why youre needing this against such a set up...unless youre troll and if so, for the laughs please continue...moving on, the shadows confuse pets and destructible torps. It also bossts your stealth in a brief cloak-like effect. but there are some things to note. while suddenly there are at most five copies of your ship for a total of six, you toon name is STILL above the real you screaming, "THE REAL ONE IS HERE!!!! THE REAL ONE IS HERE!!!!" because of this, the escape value is somewhat reduced and if its the torps your trying to get waya from, why not just use shockwave? in the end this is the best ability for escaping and even then its not THAT great. it still causes the 5 second cloak CD. the pluses are that for a spilt second, in all the chaos, you might cuase your opponent to lock on to one of the copies giving you the time needed to escape. You hit WS spam copies, and i second later the power cloaks you. the 5 second CD elapses and you hit the real cloak maintaining your disappearing act. But you STILL cant kill another player with it so how it this OP?
First kinda, KINDA useful one.
Quantum Absorbtion or QA:
this is another OK one. you get an shield heal, an effect like a secondary hull worth of HP, and a sheild heal over time. At first glance this sound awesome, in practice....not so much. if you are in trouble, and you would be to be hitting this power, you should know a few things. You arent cloaking for 5 seconds and i hope you can survive that long, the plus hull points can be cleared and eroded by a decent volley, the shield will barely be noticed and the shield heal over time will be noticed even less so. i honestly didnt know the shields were even buffed and ive been using my rom for a year now. will it save you? in pve maybe but we arent talking pve. i dont see any borg here complaining that the VC is broke so PVP it is. In PVP this will not save you. it will only prolong your life for a second or two. this means you have a bit more time to watch your ship die. this is the order of events: youre dying, you hit QA, your hull buffs, your bonus hull disappears under fire, you die. STILL. it will NEVER kill another player. it barely has an effect on you, much less them. in pvp, this is useless.
thats One KINDA useful power and three useless ones......
Plasma Shockwave or PS:
Shockwave is ok, it will kill destructible torps, which if your shields are up, wont hurt you, and it MIGHT kill hanger pets. if they are a few of the stronger ones will laugh at you. (looking at you romulan drones...) this power ignores sheilds which is AWESOME but the damage it does is SOOOO poor, most player ships wont even budge percentage wise....if they do, you might get 1-2% damage out of it, which is healed buy innate hull healing......this, while an offensinve power WILL never kill a pve target that your weapons didnt ready weaken and couldnt finish off faster, not to mention an actual player who wont even notice the effects of it beyond, "OHHH the colors!"
thats one, ONE kinda useful power and four useless ones.
THAT is a fair trade for -40 power SERIOUSLY?! Now i know what weve been told but honestly, those powers are a joke. A JOKE. they are in no way OP, or even all that useful to be honest. So please, lets not bring up SP again.
NOw i know what youre thinking, "what the bloody hell does that have to do with the OP-ness of the VC?!"
Simple. That -40 power. As you can see those powers above are pretty useless. and the only thing worth mentioning is BC. but that -40 MUST STILL BE ADDRESSED. and its effects on the ships must be addresses as well.
Someone said the -40 isnt really spread out over the 4 systems. you simply start with 160 power instead of 200. That is true but what this means is there is less power to go around.
let consider my current Advance Romulan Dyson. At idle my power levels are Weapons 116/100, shields 44/20, engines 53/25 aux 66/15. as you can see and would imagine, as a science ship i have gear to boost aux. but to put that in perspective lets look at my Fed's Fleet Avenger. Weapons are 123/100, shields are 57/35, engines 82/50 and aux is 40/15. now these are my normal power levels. OF COURSE if i am going defensive these level chance a lot. but on the norm, this is where they are set. now, i know the shield are what we are discussing because THAT is what the VC affect so lets give the avenger thr SAME power as to shields as the dyson. Shield power on the Avenger goes to 45/20 but engine power is NUTS. 94/65. As you can see, the fed ship has far more speed more matter what set up like this. this means more defense and more mobility. But the avenger IS a crusier so maybe engine power and speed isnt you thing. lets match engine power with he dyson. engines now at 60/25...still more than the dyson...but that aux power is now nuts. heals are suddenly way more powerful. (aux power is 69/55) i cant even bring aux power down without other stuff going up and weapon are maxed out.
Now, what does that all mean? engines and shields, now matter what i do WILL ALWAYS be higher than on a romulan ship. there is no way around this. Now we all knew this already, that whole 160 power vs 200 power. but as you can see those SP are a joke and the only thing worth -40 is the BC. This power issue means that two systems will ALWAYS be lower (at idle) than fed/kdf ships. but since we are talking shields and we have established the the Shield power is either ALWAYS goingto be lower than fed/KDF ships OR the raise Shield power something else will be lacking lets see if we can find what power or the lack there of, does to ones shields.
Power Levels
also see here
as you can see, power to shields directly affects both regeneration AND innate resistances. in short, romulan shield are both, less resistant and regenerates slower than FED and KDF shields.
THIS IS FACT. without the VC romulan ships will have set power levels to shields the same as fed/kdf does. why is THAT a problem? look at that powerlevels page again. in order to dump more power to shields, romulan ship will have to lose one of three things or a combination of the three. those three things are, less DPS through less power to weapons,(there goes overcapping) or less engine power which means less speed and maybe less defense. Less defense mean the romulan ship will be hit more and take more DMG, or lastly, less aux power which means less effectiveness of a whole long list of powers AND reduce cloak effectiveness, AND less perception. the roumlan must choose on one of these or a small amount of ALL of these just to match shield power. OR they can reduce power to shield, have ok amounts of power in the other systems, and use the VC to cover the difference in shields. the VC isnt OP, it is NEEDED and without it romulan ships are just weaker. why do you thin SOO many romulans are in lockbox ships? the reduced power levels are a BIG DEAL.
in the end those who are wanting a nerf to romulan ship are REALLY asking for a lot bigger nerf than they realize.
Now, if you can disprove ANY of the above WITH HARD FACTS AND NOT YOUR OPINION then i would reconsider my viewpoint however, no one has even come close to doing that.
TL:DR
Romulan power levels are the reason for the VC AND OTHER CONSOLES. No, you cant just say, "Singularity power and the cloak are the trade off," and if you do you fail to realiize it is a very poor trade off and the devs thought so too otherwise they would of even made the VC and other consoles to rectify the problems of lower power.
Now please, bring up FACTS not you bloody opinions based on a lack to kill romulans in pv or a lack to compete with romulans in pve.
the only, THE ONLY romulan thing the is broken in pve is the scimitar and while yes i have one, I HATE IT SOOOO MUCH and never really use it. in fact i myself am deciding on a lockbox ship which will not cost my soul to get for my romulan. i will probley end up in one of the Talshiar ships. I just have to come up with a good reason stroy-wise for him to have it considering he HATES the talshiar....
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
it MIGHT out pace incoming DPS during STF but honestly, SO WHAT? how is the VC's perfomance in pve even an issue?! we all are there to grind. what? you want that grind lengthened by teammate death or do yu wnat to get in and out so you can play the game to have fun? or is this just a grind game job to you?
the only time the VC should truly matter is PVP.
I think that either this console needs a buff, or that estfs and other content needs to be nerfed to a more less frustrating to participate in level, it is currently almost too difficult and does not contain enough cutscenes for my liking.
Well actually i want to have fun in the STF...you know team work stuff like that...some kind of struggle this is where most of the players in the entire game come to have fun
Not be in and out in 3 minutes because of ships/consoles that render the content into a 3 minute happy farmer
This ship and console needs to be balenced for PvE
your fun/game may be PvP thats awesome but more than 90% of the players are in PvE
just count the numbers in the que's
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
I see what your problem is; you've gone over tanked your ship. you've gone turtle, and not the fun mutant ninja kind, the kind of turtle that tries to eat a cherry tomato that keeps rolling away from him.
what you need to do is remove all your tanky bits including the valdore console and do something beneficial for your team... like shoot something.
also you shouldn't run the Valdore console in ESTFs. if you have the damage you don't need the tank and there are other consoles that improve your damage.
Let me get this straight. you want to VC nerfed because you want to have your ideaof fun and OP players are coming in doing the mission too fast....
is that it?
If so i have good new for you. Get your frends together and STOP PUGGING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that way you can play the missions as you like without riuning what someone eles may consider fum. MAYBE being super OP is fun for those is scimmies. MAYBE they want the VC buffed so they dont have to worry other players are dying and slowing them down. there are more people playing this game than you.
- If all your shield facings are at a perfect 100%, using shield heal won't record a heal.
- If there is at least one shield facing that is below 100%, the shield heal will record it's full magnitude for each of the four facings.
In other words: healing is only recorded when one needed at least a little bit of the heal.I have tried to come up with estimates for the valdore console of the amount of healing that is wasted due to overhealing, but this is a difficult taks because the log files don't provide a possibility to see the absolute amount of shields that a ship has at a certain point in time. Plotting incoming damage against shield heals allows one to make some guesses, but since that requires complete log files and not just the aggregate data that the leaderboard provides, I only have my personal log files for this.
Then might I suggest you get some RELIABLE data before spouting nonsense on the forums which could lead to a nerf that would have substantial and far reaching consenquences on gameplay for MANY people?!?!?!
Still, in PvP with all the shots that are fired you are guaranteed that you'll nearly never get to have all facings completely up; a turret, beam, whatever can damage shields. Considering that romulans have less power levels, their shield regeneration is tremendously weak when you give full power to weapons.
If you can keep shields strong as romulan and hardly ever falling you're not dealing a lot of damage, therefore not even running the console.
your right there are a lot more players than me
Thats what has you scared huh ? your on the tiny end of the player base
and it will be nerfed ..just a matter of time and bringing it to the attention of the Dev's
Slow me down ? thats a laff I dont need a scim a romulan and a valdore console to do the STFs ... Do you ?
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
"Said the PvE hero cornered".
From what ESTF's fog you've came from?
I don't mind completing queues with my Scimitar and Valdore console. Frankly, I got bored enough of IA that I don't anymore. PvP is the way.
Well I'm just gonna start off by saying that I fly the Fleet D'deridex. It is an absolute fantastic ship, unfortunately its a glass cannon though, it tends to die a lot. I load it up with a lot of the heals and the consoles to try and make it survive a little better.
So when I warp into an elite queue, the first thing that I do is really just take a step away from the keyboard and talk to my bridge officers on what the plan of action is for this mission. Normally is a nice useful fellow named Toran Khev. Throughout my journey as a Romulan Officer, he as been a valuable insight into what I should and should not do. Basically whatever he says goes.
Then Toran Khev, or another one of my useful bridge officers will tell me what they recommend I do, and then I take another minute or two and deliberate on their advice and whether or not their background is really suited to what the mission will entail and whether or not I should listen to them. Sometimes I find that the bridge officer who responds to me doesn't really have the best grasp on the situation at hand, so at that point I flash back to my orb experience with Captain Sisko, and ask myself, what would Sisko do? Pretty much at this point, I just leave it up to the Prophets to guide me to victory.
So after I have established a plan of action and have received the Prophets blessing, I direct my helmsman to lay in a course for the enemy, and inform him to use some various attack patterns. So now we're on our way to engage the Borg, I get on the ship's intercom and inform my crew that the situation is grave, this is the same exact species that the Federation had such a hard time with at wolf 359, so they need to know that its gettin real.
After informing my crew of the dangers that we will be facing and motivating them to do their duty, we begin to combat the Borg. Thankfully I have some nice polaron beams installed on my ship that I obtained on a diplomatic mission to the Dominion. My trusty tactical officer, Toran Khev begins to fire at will, since I trust his judgment on what to shoot at. Thanks to a nifty little combo between my bridge officers and my duty officers I am able to use a fancy ability called Auxillary to Battery. This allows Toran Khev to fire more often. This Auxillary to Battery thing is much more than a bridge officer ability, its more of a lifestyle choice.
All of a sudden my ship is in a tractor beam and cannot move, luckily my weapons are still firing and thanks to a semi useful valdore console, I am gaining a little bit of shields back every once in awhile. Unfortunately this console is not enough to keep my ship and its brave valiant crew alive, so we succumb to the borg and are forced to respawn.
So little by little myself and the brave fleet that I am apart of in this queue to stop the Borg with begin to whittle down the giant monstrosity that is the Borg vessels. By the time its all said and done, we have all respawned several times. We're gonna need a bigger fleet.
Now a big tactical cube warps in, this thing is massive and carries a lot of firepower. It somehow manages to drain my shields even though there isn't a debuff icon present while my shields are failing, the ability needs nerfed and the icon needs fixed btw, and I die again since my valdore console simply isn't doing a good enough job of healing me. So my brave team is out there fighting the Tactical Cube probably worried for their crews well being since they just saw how quickly my vessel was defeated.
A minute later I finally get back into the game and I fly towards the tactical cube and fire everything. Mines, cannons, torpedos and beams. Everything must go. About after fighting just the Tactical cube for 5-7 minutes it eventually is defeated, but we paid a heavy price.
Also how are we supposed to be reaching these 15 minute optional timers? This hardly seems long enough for such a intensely challenging Borg invasion. Doesn't hardly seem fair that the best of the best might make it, but the average player fails it every time. Just give everyone the marks off the bat and I think it would make it more enjoyable.
Anyways, thats my Elite Stf experience, it is rather time consuming and difficult.
What the actual frak?!
Are you seriously using Dominion Polarons?! I don't even...
mancom's statistics basically show us what the proc chance will amount to overall, taking into account how often people actually fire.
It seems to be more that someone set a nice trap so that the thread could be derailed and it worked reasonably well. It's a good tactic to derail a thread and bury the actual arguments.
In short, personal attacks should simply be reported and ignored, focus on the actual arguments about the items in question. Unless you think that won't "win" you the topic.
Indeed. Of course, it may not be what is mechanically the best option for cryptic, depending on how easy or difficult it is to implement such a cap.
So say's the PvP hero..............Bring the biggest crutch you have you probably need it
I dont mind pointing out OP conso;es gear ect...................Its what i do inbetween Estf's for fun
Have fun in the PvP Ques we will get along just fine in PvE without you
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
You are kidding right??? Every player and their grandma are using Leach. Its not 60-80m for nothing... If Cryptic would do some data mining would see that its the most used console in the game. Thats an imbalanced item, not the valdore console.
And as other ppl said, all this presented data about the valdore console, from a minority of playerbase, its contains far too many variables to be taken into consideration... It spreads missleading informations based on a small player base... An example: that average EPtS freqvency use... Its ridicoulous, the majority of players base have 2 copies and are running EPtS constantly. Also alot of, if not most of the players from this colected data are far better equiped and skilled then the average player. In some way I would dare to call them exploiters, as in bypassing or bending game mechanics and loopholes. The point is the data it favors a minority of players and cant be applied or used as an argument for the majority of playerbase to nerf an item. Nerf the players from reaching soo much DPS, wich has gotten out of hand, not an item that only reflects that...
But I am sure Cryptic can look at the full picture, colecting data mining from all players, and can judge better on this.