J'mpok is irritating, Bringing in other races less as jeghpu'wI' and more as lesser partners shows a type of progress. But his obsession with fighting the federation is his fatal flaw. Even Klingon intelligence sees is as a waste of resources.
And lets face it there are a lot of Gorn and Orions not happy with the Empire, Naussicans are more mercenary than anything. And the Cardassians really don't like the KDF, The KDF and the Maquis gave Dukat what he needed to sell the Union to the Dominion.
And without diplomacy He is just going to face ANOTHER interstellar coalition even if the KDF beats the Federation.
J'mpok has tunnel vision and is inflexible, and while not evil or dishonorable, those qualities make him a bad leader.
TRIBBLE diversity and progress if it means losing who we are. to change the empire into something more akin the Federation means we already lost.
I also noticed that once again its Federation avatars saying these things. some people may play the KDF but favor the feds or favor a KDF allied rommy or maybe one of the LESSER species of KDF playable toons, but I have not seen a Player that plays KDF as a KLINGON as their Primary toon talk in such a way.
wanna see people leave the federation droves. let cryptic give us one PVP open rang weekend. so Klingons can invade sol in mass numbers and show all these feddy bears just how weak they really are.
Actually, Martok started the war with the Romulans. The claim that J'mpok provoked the war with the RSE is false.
That's correct, though he did force continuation of hostilities with RSE while KDF was dealing with Gorn, which KDF analysts already dismissed as too taxing to maintain at that moment.
And then he got his TRIBBLE severely kicked, which was expected with subpar fleet, and gave hope to Romulans who unified around Taris. All just to shake Martok's position.
And the Gorn are first mentioned in STO after the Undine are discovered by the Letheans on Qo'noS. After the Undine infiltrators in the House of Konjah were aprehended and brought before J'mpok and the High Council, Ja'rod was called in the Chancellor's chamber and afterwards he vanished from the radar with his ship for a while, before returning from the undercover reconaissance mission in Gorn space to confirm that the Undine had taken over the Gorn Hegemony.
That's when he started the invasion of the Gorn. The claim that J'pok threatened the Gorn before that is false.
Your historical account is far off, but conclusion is correct, though:
Councilor Konjah was found an infiltrator in 2401. Proof of Gorn being infiltrated by Undine was found 2 years ago, in 2399, prompting full declaration of war - which was irrelevant considering serious infighting was going on as early as 2386, with KDF conquest of Gila system.
All of it started with Gorn attack of IKS Quv in 2384. So yeah, Gorn were warmongering this one, probably manipulated by Undine. Heck, J'mpok even attended last serious attempt at peace conference in 2397, even when majority of Council was pushing for full declaration of war.
While the KDF-Gorn war lasted, the Federation and the KDF were still allies. The Federation even organized several peace conferences between the Empire and the Hegemony in order to mediate a peacefull solution. After those negotiations failed for the last time, the Federation Council declared the KDF-Gorn war to be illegal and that's when things started going downhill between the Empire and the Federation.
So the claim that he threatened the Federation before the Undine were exposed is also false.
Situation was shaky long time before that, since KDF retaking of Khitomer, and then after Worf lost his fleet to Narada.
The decision to banish the House of Torg was not an easy one for J'mpok personally, but he did right for the Emprie. As he is shown to always do throughout the entire game.
He's interesting character for sure. He strikes me more of politician than warrior - he really doesn't have any noteworthy personal achievements - unless losing a fleet to admiral Taris can be counted as such. War with federation was inevitable, and his connections with B'Vat and sealing the deal with Orion Syndicate are dubious decisions at best.
TRIBBLE diversity and progress if it means losing who we are. to change the empire into something more akin the Federation means we already lost.
I also noticed that once again its Federation avatars saying these things. some people may play the KDF but favor the feds or favor a KDF allied rommy or maybe one of the LESSER species of KDF playable toons, but I have not seen a Player that plays KDF as a KLINGON as their Primary toon talk in such a way.
wanna see people leave the federation droves. let cryptic give us one PVP open rang weekend. so Klingons can invade sol in mass numbers and show all these feddy bears just how weak they really are.
EDIT: and J'mpok is fine until somebody stronger comes along.
to conquer other cultures is to be changed by them, to conquer other all you prove is that you are better at military conflict, not that you were better at administration, trade, cooking. If you don't want to be changed you have to become isolationist, and that usually leads to you being conquered.
to conquer other cultures is to be changed by them, to conquer other all you prove is that you are better at military conflict, not that you were better at administration, trade, cooking. If you don't want to be changed you have to become isolationist, and that usually leads to you being conquered.
Written like a true feddy bear. If you let the enemy change you they WIN. you either have to change them or destroy them. Force them to change otherwise what was the point of going to war?
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
J'mpok is irritating, Bringing in other races less as jeghpu'wI' and more as lesser partners shows a type of progress. But his obsession with fighting the federation is his fatal flaw. Even Klingon intelligence sees is as a waste of resources.
And lets face it there are a lot of Gorn and Orions not happy with the Empire, Naussicans are more mercenary than anything. And the Cardassians really don't like the KDF, The KDF and the Maquis gave Dukat what he needed to sell the Union to the Dominion.
And without diplomacy He is just going to face ANOTHER interstellar coalition even if the KDF beats the Federation.
J'mpok has tunnel vision and is inflexible, and while not evil or dishonorable, those qualities make him a bad leader.
I don't think the Cardassians are in any position to be any sort of threat to the KDF since they are basically relying on Starfleet at this point.
Plus look what happened the last time the Cardassians and the Empire clashed, it was incredibly one sided in favour of the Empire. Now Cardassia has been through hell on top of that.
Written like a true feddy bear. If you let the enemy change you they WIN. you either have to change them or destroy them. Force them to change otherwise what was the point of going to war?
No, written as a student of history. And the Klingon are based of human culture.
I don't think the Cardassians are in any position to be any sort of threat to the KDF since they are basically relying on Starfleet at this point.
Plus look what happened the last time the Cardassians and the Empire clashed, it was incredibly one sided in favour of the Empire. Now Cardassia has been through hell on top of that.
Remember the cardassians under went a civilian revolution. The Depta council, when the klingons were whipping them.
Remember what i said, conquering others only proves you are better at military ventures. Military rule was damaging the cardassians internally, even though in gave them conquered resources.
The Cardies went through hell because the Klingons drove them into the arms of the Dominion, which still exists. Remember the coalition only defeated the Dominions expiditionary force not the Dominion proper.
It might not take much to drive the Cardies back into their old ways especially given that Cardassian ambassadors view of the Klingon's in the Dominion arc of STO.
And lest face it Constant expansion TRIBBLE off your neighbors, The Federation, 2 separate factions of Romulans, the Kardassians the Breen, the Tholians.
Remember it was Romulan expansionism that got the Rigilians, Terrans, Vulans, Andorians, Tellarites, 5 very different cultures who all beefed with each other at one point or another to form the UFP. And lets face it the current Klingon empire is much bigger and scarier than the 22nd century Romulan Star Empire.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, J'mpok doesn't seem to care how the galaxy at large will react to the New Klingon empire, and that is dangerous.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, J'mpok doesn't seem to care how the galaxy at large will react to the New Klingon empire, and that is dangerous.
Nothing new about the Empire. Nothing new about J'mpok either, he's not doing anything his predecessors weren't doing for centuries before him.
Nothing new about the Empire. Nothing new about J'mpok either, he's not doing anything his predecessors weren't doing for centuries before him.
That is perfectly true, and it nearly destroyed the Klingons, if not of Spock after the Praxis event there would like be no klingon empire. And remember the Yesterday's Enterprise time line happened after the Feds help the klinks deal with Praxis.
The klingon empire is barreling toward destruction in STO because it has never learned from history, or worse never learned from history correctly.
That is perfectly true, and it nearly destroyed the Klingons, if not of Spock after the Praxis event there would like be no klingon empire. And remember the Yesterday's Enterprise time line happened after the Feds help the klinks deal with Praxis.
The klingon empire is barreling toward destruction in STO because it has never learned from history, or worse never learned from history correctly.
What are you on about?
Praxis blew up due to overmining, not due to the Empire's expansionistinc policies and subjugating neighboring civilizations.
TRIBBLE diversity and progress if it means losing who we are. to change the empire into something more akin the Federation means we already lost.
I also noticed that once again its Federation avatars saying these things. some people may play the KDF but favor the feds or favor a KDF allied rommy or maybe one of the LESSER species of KDF playable toons, but I have not seen a Player that plays KDF as a KLINGON as their Primary toon talk in such a way.
wanna see people leave the federation droves. let cryptic give us one PVP open rang weekend. so Klingons can invade sol in mass numbers and show all these feddy bears just how weak they really are.
EDIT: and J'mpok is fine until somebody stronger comes along.
Yo, look at my signature, jerk. I'm proud to play both a Federation AND Klingon character. And I'm very attached to both.
And your words are stupidly conservative even for a Klingon. Most of them will admit other races make good allies. And second, Klingon honor is at odds of their behavior. We've seen Klingons be things besides conquerers. They've been poets, and restaurant owners, and lawyers and scientists. And yet, the Warrior Caste seems to think they're all high and mighty and the true Klingons.
Your quote from Sirella? Remember, Sirella grew to have respect for Quark and Ferengi customs (even made up ones). And second, I like to point out the hypocrisy: how is conquering lesser races any different than how the HurQ' treated the Klingons? Its not.
The Empire as it has been in the last 2 centuries is an era of corruption and degeneration into the very thing they hated. That lawyer who spoke to Archer mentioned how one caste of the Klingon Empire was bullying the others into submission. How much of Klingon Heritage was lost in this manner? How much of Klingon cultural diversity was destroyed?
The Empire we saw in the TOS-TNG eras was a vestigal Empire because it lost sight of it original ideals. So much, we don't even know what they were because all we've seen of the Empire is "Proud Warrior Race Guy." There's more to it though.
The Klingon people have always been very accepting of other cultures even if they want to conquer them. Shakespeare is always at his best in the original Klingon after all.
Perhaps now is a chance for the Klingon people to refind their heritage beyond being blood knights. To find the honor in what they've lost and in their differences.
You say it loses the Klingon way? I say it restores it. There will always be honor and glory in battle, but there is honor and glory in many ways the Klingon people have forgotten.
General starfleet admin may not take the Undine seriuosly but Section 31 knows and believes that the Undine have infiltrated the federation and starfleet to the highest levels.
Or so the load screens still say when I change zones.
Fankly Starfleet has it head up its on protocals so far they couldnt see daylight if it was piped in on a dedicated line.
The Borg, the Undine prescence and those iconic ST personalities that left the UFP because their warnings where ignored are more than enough proof of it.
J'mpok an Undine? maybe, he did ascend to power under mysteriuos circumstances. Of course if true his body wont have time to grow cold before it hits the floor as the Empire doesnt take such situations lightly like the feds do.
Of course this is Cryptic and they will roll the Empire under the bus for a darsek so I hold no illusions how the storyline will go.
Praxis blew up due to overmining, not due to the Empire's expansionistinc policies and subjugating neighboring civilizations.
Lack of safety due to a society mindlessly locked its warrior cast mind set, yes it blowing up was a symptom of the Empires cultural mindset. Why did they need to needed to over mine their moon, hell how do you over mine a celestial body to the point t explodes!?
There is incompetence and there is blow up the moon.
No, written as a student of history. And the Klingon are based of human culture.
Yet you cant seem to grasp the fact that the entire Klingon race is a warrior race. that does not have the same moral values or goals as your beloved federation.
No matter what the books tell you that the Klingons were based on, the species has been written into by so many different people that it is at this point unlike any real world example as a true culture, but you can take examples from the individual lvl and apply them, and the fact show that a diverse community is more isolated, withdrawn, distrustful and less caring about others around them.
As a student of history you are also still sticking to your guns about diversity being a good thing for a culture? when it shown throughout history that diversity erodes single culture and creates a new .
1.The community loses cohesion. can be seen in game as lack of team work and the me me me mentality.
2. Distorts our priorities. can be seen in game as people not donating to fleet projects because they so not benefit or think hey let the other guy donate dil I need mine for me.
3. It breeds prejudice, This can be seen in me, hey that guy don't donate to projects as much as I do why does he/she who does not care as much as I do get the same ( insert blank as me ) allowed the same things.
I love how the feddy bears come in here with their feddy avatars, and start throwing around how smart they are rather than making their argument. now I know I am not being politically correct with this, and anybody with a semi liberal slant will indeed think I am crazy. for one reason only, what im saying goes against their rule book. they do not care if facts do not back them up or not.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Yo, look at my signature, jerk. I'm proud to play both a Federation AND Klingon character. And I'm very attached to both.
And your words are stupidly conservative even for a Klingon. Most of them will admit other races make good allies. And second, Klingon honor is at odds of their behavior. We've seen Klingons be things besides conquerers. They've been poets, and restaurant owners, and lawyers and scientists. And yet, the Warrior Caste seems to think they're all high and mighty and the true Klingons.
Your quote from Sirella? Remember, Sirella grew to have respect for Quark and Ferengi customs (even made up ones). And second, I like to point out the hypocrisy: how is conquering lesser races any different than how the HurQ' treated the Klingons? Its not.
The Empire as it has been in the last 2 centuries is an era of corruption and degeneration into the very thing they hated. That lawyer who spoke to Archer mentioned how one caste of the Klingon Empire was bullying the others into submission. How much of Klingon Heritage was lost in this manner? How much of Klingon cultural diversity was destroyed?
The Empire we saw in the TOS-TNG eras was a vestigal Empire because it lost sight of it original ideals. So much, we don't even know what they were because all we've seen of the Empire is "Proud Warrior Race Guy." There's more to it though.
The Klingon people have always been very accepting of other cultures even if they want to conquer them. Shakespeare is always at his best in the original Klingon after all.
Perhaps now is a chance for the Klingon people to refind their heritage beyond being blood knights. To find the honor in what they've lost and in their differences.
You say it loses the Klingon way? I say it restores it. There will always be honor and glory in battle, but there is honor and glory in many ways the Klingon people have forgotten.
and now I can add jerk the names I have been called all in the name of diversity. you guys really need to be more respectful of other ideas, and practice what you preach.
apparently you have not been following the entire conversation I have said before alien species have a place in the Empire. just that they need to know it is The Klingon Empire not the Orion syndicate or what ever other little thing they USED to be called. and I think that they should be treated the same way we treat the Romulans. once they hit T5 and need a ship they should have their own race specific ships and not be allowed top of the line Klingon ships the same way Romulans are treated.
the way this game works the devs already favor the feds and the rommies more than the Klingons, but they also have it so Klingons are not favored even in the Klingon Empire. if you want true diversity we need to be different and in a space game played primarily in space, space vessels are about the only way it can be done unless you lose your identity and drop thedes at the door.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Lack of safety due to a society mindlessly locked its warrior cast mind set, yes it blowing up was a symptom of the Empires cultural mindset. Why did they need to needed to over mine their moon, hell how do you over mine a celestial body to the point t explodes!?
There is incompetence and there is blow up the moon.
Because once in a while you get an incompetent petaQ that needs to be executed. Just like our old petaQ of a transporter officer in the shipyard on Qo'noS in STO.
How do you relate this with the Empire's expanisonism and warlike nature being it's downfall, when it's a established fact that it worked for them for ages and only made the Empire stronger is beyond me.
Because once in a while you get an incompetent petaQ that needs to be executed. Just like our old petaQ of a transporter officer in the shipyard on Qo'noS in STO.
How do you relate this with the Empire's expanisonism and warlike nature being it's downfall, when it's a established fact that it worked for them for ages and only made the Empire stronger is beyond me.
these guys wont see the leadership at that time as bad because it was the mush loved by the federation Gorkon that allowed it to happen.
where if they had continued the war footing and taken over more mineral rich planets the need for over mining would not have been there.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
hell how do you over mine a celestial body to the point t explodes!?
gas pockets, perhaps?
it wasn't a normal explosion, though, because it released a subspace shockwave...praxis was a dilithium mining operation, but as far as i know, dilithium doesn't have supspace properties of any kind, so i don't know how the hell that happened
maybe it wasn't overmining; maybe they were testing subspace weapons and something went wrong
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
and now I can add jerk the names I have been called all in the name of diversity. you guys really need to be more respectful of other ideas, and practice what you preach.
apparently you have not been following the entire conversation I have said before alien species have a place in the Empire. just that they need to know it is The Klingon Empire not the Orion syndicate or what ever other little thing they USED to be called. and I think that they should be treated the same way we treat the Romulans. once they hit T5 and need a ship they should have their own race specific ships and not be allowed top of the line Klingon ships the same way Romulans are treated.
the way this game works the devs already favor the feds and the rommies more than the Klingons, but they also have it so Klingons are not favored even in the Klingon Empire. if you want true diversity we need to be different and in a space game played primarily in space, space vessels are about the only way it can be done unless you lose your identity and drop thedes at the door.
In the name of diversity?
TRIBBLE diversity and progress if it means losing who we are. to change the empire into something more akin the Federation means we already lost.
Your words. Buddy, you're the one not practicing what they teach. You essentially called anyone with a Fed avatar a pretender and someone who doesn't care about the Empire. Far from it. I actually like the KDF side more than I do the Federation and I don't appreciate you judging me based on a default avatar I never changed.
And second your argument doesnt work because that means all those individual races don't fit into the KDF story either. You want 5 more factions?
Essentially you want the Empire to be a Klingon-only club. Considering how many people play KDF as is, what do you think it will be like when 5 of the player races disappear.
Emptier than it is now.
And the Empire would be a lot less interesting. The new diversity forming adds new ideas and concepts to the Empire. It adds depth. We've all watched Klingon politics before, its been done to death. Now lets see how those same politicians handle non-Klingon politics in their arena.
I'd say the addition of the Gorn, Ferasans, Orions, Letheans and Nausicaans makes for a more interesting Empire, if only because its not what's expected of them. Its something new. Its a change. And change is inevitable. Up till now the Klingon Empire has been locked, surrounded on 3/4ths of its borders by the Federation. That's changing. They have a chance to grow and expand and be a new Klingon Empire. And its coming with a cost. An interesting cost.
Cryptic may not be doing enough with it, but this new Empire can grow in ways you never imagined.
Oh and about it being like the Federation. Established in Enterprise in a Time Travel foray that the Empire will eventually be a part of the Federation. Gene even wanted the Klingons in TNG to be already integrated (this changed at the request of Michael Dorn).
Because once in a while you get an incompetent petaQ that needs to be executed. Just like our old petaQ of a transporter officer in the shipyard on Qo'noS in STO.
How do you relate this with the Empire's expanisonism and warlike nature being it's downfall, when it's a established fact that it worked for them for ages and only made the Empire stronger is beyond me.
no, no. Not one incompetent petaQ, that's is an entire system. With that thought European Colonialism and American unrestrained capitalism totally works, even though only a minority really benefited and it causes massive disasters.
The Klingon empire is about 500 years old, Well the Inter Stellar Klingon Empire, they went up against the Federation who stymied them. The Romulans who stymied them, the Gorn Who until recently in STO stymied them, the Cardassians who turned to the dominion which nearly destroyed all 3 major Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.
that's not "Working" that's barely avoiding cataclysmic disasters.
Good think the Klinks never pissed off that god-like-alien who wiped out the Hoos-nat because they killed his wife.
Oh and about it being like the Federation. Established in Enterprise in a Time Travel foray that the Empire will eventually be a part of the Federation.
A possible future timeline that may or may not happen based on any action of any relevant individual in between ENT and the suposed battle against the sphere builders. And even then, as far as I remember, there was no mention that the forces fighting are all members of the Federation, but rather an alliance against the sphere builders led by the Federation. What to me sounds much more similar to the DS9 alliance against the Dominion.
Sorry, this particular episode has always been a nitpick of mine.
Besides, as far as STO is concerned, the Klingons are not a part of the Federation in the 29-th century if we judge by the different timeships that were captured from the Tholians.
no, no. Not one incompetent petaQ, that's is an entire system. With that thought European Colonialism and American unrestrained capitalism totally works, even though only a minority really benefited and it causes massive disasters.
The Klingon empire is about 500 years old, Well the Inter Stellar Klingon Empire, they went up against the Federation who stymied them. The Romulans who stymied them, the Gorn Who until recently in STO stymied them, the Cardassians who turned to the dominion which nearly destroyed all 3 major Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.
that's not "Working" that's barely avoiding cataclysmic disasters.
Good think the Klinks never pissed off that god-like-alien who wiped out the Hoos-nat because they killed his wife.
Sorry, but I'm having serious trouble to basically understand what you're trying to say throughout this entire thread. None of it makes any sense to me. *shrugs*
Maybe it's just me and I need to sleep it off because it's getting late around here.
Or maybe it's you because I'm getting a slight impression that you personally dislike the manner in which the Klingon Emprie lives and deals with things, so you're needlessly screaming DOOOOOM because of it.
I never said I wanted 5 factions. I just think if the Klingon Empire is to survive aliens need to know their place. its only the game that is allowing you aliens to think such things. I still don't see a high council member of an alien race thankfully.
and to the guy who never changed his avatar and is crying that im assuming. id like to meet your Klingon in game just to see this long played lvl 50 well outfitted Klingon that you like so much. My EC is on it being an alien. since you are defending them so.
Also I try very hard not to get personal with things I say and keep it game based so if you have a federation avatar you might as well be walking around in a feddy bear uniform to me.
and me practice what I teach/ preach LOL all along I have been consistent or used sarcasm to point out why others are not following their own beliefs. Probably just a problem with one of our universal translators not working properly that is causing the confusion.
what I wish J'mpok would do is dump any alliance with the feddy bears go to the Voth ally with them ( their beef is with the alpha quad and the theory of origin threat, which the Klingons are not a threat too) then use this alliance with the voth to defeat the undine and by proxy the Federation once we show them the evidence that the federation is heavily infiltrated. and let the war escalate.
Then the feddy bears can show the galaxy their truly evil colors once again by entering an alliance with the BORG AGAIN! to try and save themselves. that is till the borg find out they are also infiltrated by their most dangerous enemy the undine.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
sarcasm, you want to say you want diversity but you want everything the Klingons have without giving up anything of your own. that isn't diversity its destroying the Klingon culture.
Oh and about it being like the Federation. Established in Enterprise in a Time Travel foray that the Empire will eventually be a part of the Federation. Gene even wanted the Klingons in TNG to be already integrated (this changed at the request of Michael Dorn).
Once again proof that diversity is bad for the Empire and will eventually lead to its demise.
I just love it when the Op makes my points for me without even realizing it.
just because SOL will one day burn out does not mean we need to speed it along. Same holds true for the Empire.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Your quote from Sirella? Remember, Sirella grew to have respect for Quark and Ferengi customs (even made up ones). And second, I like to point out the hypocrisy: how is conquering lesser races any different than how the HurQ' treated the Klingons? Its not.
I think your confusing the Lady Sirella, Martoks wife with Grilka, Worfs wife who was married to Quark for a short time.
but I may be wrong.
As for conquering other races being different, well the Empire integrates aliens into it, that's fine and I don't have a problem with it the become Klingon. unlike the orions who enslave others which is more along the lines of the hurq.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
The idea of section 31 being involved with a overthrow is terrible, if they want to end the war. This would basically make the Empire a puppet state. while cryptic may like this idea I do not.
now if a Klingon NPC ( NOT A FED PUPPET ) took out J'mpok and passed leadership over to say the Kahless clone whom by now has proven himself in battle ( grethor ) or for that fact the clone himself decides to take out J'pok then fine. Then under new leadership they ally with section 31 to take out the Starfleet Undine infiltrators in exchange to a peace treaty after the threats have been removed then fine.
Leaving MOST of the problems solved Klingons get to save face by taking out the Undine threat at Starfleet. feds get their peace treaty, J'mpok haters get rid of him, people who hold Klingon values stay happy with a traditional justified Takeover of the Empire.
What makes you think the Undine haven't already compramised what passes as this 'Section 31'
Who else is better than the Undine to act as a hidden force within Starfleet, influencing admirals and getting close to the Legitimate intelligence networks, these people are already so secretive it wouldn't be hard for an undine infiltrator to take one over without anybody in Starfleet proper noticing
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
J'Mpok, as much as I personally dislike him, is the leader that the Klingon empire needs at this time. As far as the end of the war goes Section 31 will probably come forward with evidence or remove the Undine infiltrators while the players wonder what direction the story is going.
Again I ask, Why are people so sure that 31 is gonna sweep away the Undine, you really think the undine wouldn't target them for infiltration early on, use them to the fullest
Also, lots of defending J'mpok of the wars, Well lets delve into the path to 2409 and look at the Fed side, Lots of stuff in there that indicates that the Presidents decisions were heavily influenced by public opinion, and political pressures, similar to the chancellor who is pressured by the nature of Klingons for conflict
Not to mention the likely hood of Undine sabotaging the peace talks from BOTH sides to deliberately accelerate the war J'mpok basically gave them the WAR THE UNDINE WANTED ALL ALONG!
Hes not going to root them out by attacking the Federation, all he does is give the Undine infiltrators a chaotic scapegoat, make the public hate the Klingons, distract them from Starfleets inner turmoil
If really think the Federation are going to look interogating their own officers for infiltrators, when the Klingons are on the Boarder with charged disruptor banks then think again
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
What makes you think the Undine haven't already compramised what passes as this 'Section 31'
Who else is better than the Undine to act as a hidden force within Starfleet, influencing admirals and getting close to the Legitimate intelligence networks, these people are already so secretive it wouldn't be hard for an undine infiltrator to take one over without anybody in Starfleet proper noticing
who in the empire really cares either way we get to kill an enemy be it Starfleet or undine.
why do Klingons get into blood feuds and civil wars? cause they are bored when they don't have somebody else to fight.
no but really what I said was just one a many possible ways to go about it. take it for what it was an opinion and just as A$$CRACK$ we all have one.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
What makes you think the Undine haven't already compramised what passes as this 'Section 31'
Who else is better than the Undine to act as a hidden force within Starfleet, influencing admirals and getting close to the Legitimate intelligence networks, these people are already so secretive it wouldn't be hard for an undine infiltrator to take one over without anybody in Starfleet proper noticing
Alternatively, Section 31 is in the perfect position to take the lead, precisely because they're not beholden to the head-in-the-sand people at the top and can therefore take action against the Undine with impunity.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
And lets face it there are a lot of Gorn and Orions not happy with the Empire, Naussicans are more mercenary than anything. And the Cardassians really don't like the KDF, The KDF and the Maquis gave Dukat what he needed to sell the Union to the Dominion.
And without diplomacy He is just going to face ANOTHER interstellar coalition even if the KDF beats the Federation.
J'mpok has tunnel vision and is inflexible, and while not evil or dishonorable, those qualities make him a bad leader.
TRIBBLE diversity and progress if it means losing who we are. to change the empire into something more akin the Federation means we already lost.
I also noticed that once again its Federation avatars saying these things. some people may play the KDF but favor the feds or favor a KDF allied rommy or maybe one of the LESSER species of KDF playable toons, but I have not seen a Player that plays KDF as a KLINGON as their Primary toon talk in such a way.
wanna see people leave the federation droves. let cryptic give us one PVP open rang weekend. so Klingons can invade sol in mass numbers and show all these feddy bears just how weak they really are.
The lady Sirella is right . We are klingons we do not embrace other cultures we conquer them.
EDIT: and J'mpok is fine until somebody stronger comes along.
That's correct, though he did force continuation of hostilities with RSE while KDF was dealing with Gorn, which KDF analysts already dismissed as too taxing to maintain at that moment.
And then he got his TRIBBLE severely kicked, which was expected with subpar fleet, and gave hope to Romulans who unified around Taris. All just to shake Martok's position.
Your historical account is far off, but conclusion is correct, though:
Councilor Konjah was found an infiltrator in 2401. Proof of Gorn being infiltrated by Undine was found 2 years ago, in 2399, prompting full declaration of war - which was irrelevant considering serious infighting was going on as early as 2386, with KDF conquest of Gila system.
All of it started with Gorn attack of IKS Quv in 2384. So yeah, Gorn were warmongering this one, probably manipulated by Undine. Heck, J'mpok even attended last serious attempt at peace conference in 2397, even when majority of Council was pushing for full declaration of war.
Situation was shaky long time before that, since KDF retaking of Khitomer, and then after Worf lost his fleet to Narada.
He's interesting character for sure. He strikes me more of politician than warrior - he really doesn't have any noteworthy personal achievements - unless losing a fleet to admiral Taris can be counted as such. War with federation was inevitable, and his connections with B'Vat and sealing the deal with Orion Syndicate are dubious decisions at best.
to conquer other cultures is to be changed by them, to conquer other all you prove is that you are better at military conflict, not that you were better at administration, trade, cooking. If you don't want to be changed you have to become isolationist, and that usually leads to you being conquered.
Written like a true feddy bear. If you let the enemy change you they WIN. you either have to change them or destroy them. Force them to change otherwise what was the point of going to war?
I don't think the Cardassians are in any position to be any sort of threat to the KDF since they are basically relying on Starfleet at this point.
Plus look what happened the last time the Cardassians and the Empire clashed, it was incredibly one sided in favour of the Empire. Now Cardassia has been through hell on top of that.
No, written as a student of history. And the Klingon are based of human culture.
Remember the cardassians under went a civilian revolution. The Depta council, when the klingons were whipping them.
Remember what i said, conquering others only proves you are better at military ventures. Military rule was damaging the cardassians internally, even though in gave them conquered resources.
The Cardies went through hell because the Klingons drove them into the arms of the Dominion, which still exists. Remember the coalition only defeated the Dominions expiditionary force not the Dominion proper.
It might not take much to drive the Cardies back into their old ways especially given that Cardassian ambassadors view of the Klingon's in the Dominion arc of STO.
And lest face it Constant expansion TRIBBLE off your neighbors, The Federation, 2 separate factions of Romulans, the Kardassians the Breen, the Tholians.
Remember it was Romulan expansionism that got the Rigilians, Terrans, Vulans, Andorians, Tellarites, 5 very different cultures who all beefed with each other at one point or another to form the UFP. And lets face it the current Klingon empire is much bigger and scarier than the 22nd century Romulan Star Empire.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, J'mpok doesn't seem to care how the galaxy at large will react to the New Klingon empire, and that is dangerous.
Nothing new about the Empire. Nothing new about J'mpok either, he's not doing anything his predecessors weren't doing for centuries before him.
That is perfectly true, and it nearly destroyed the Klingons, if not of Spock after the Praxis event there would like be no klingon empire. And remember the Yesterday's Enterprise time line happened after the Feds help the klinks deal with Praxis.
The klingon empire is barreling toward destruction in STO because it has never learned from history, or worse never learned from history correctly.
What are you on about?
Praxis blew up due to overmining, not due to the Empire's expansionistinc policies and subjugating neighboring civilizations.
Yo, look at my signature, jerk. I'm proud to play both a Federation AND Klingon character. And I'm very attached to both.
And your words are stupidly conservative even for a Klingon. Most of them will admit other races make good allies. And second, Klingon honor is at odds of their behavior. We've seen Klingons be things besides conquerers. They've been poets, and restaurant owners, and lawyers and scientists. And yet, the Warrior Caste seems to think they're all high and mighty and the true Klingons.
Your quote from Sirella? Remember, Sirella grew to have respect for Quark and Ferengi customs (even made up ones). And second, I like to point out the hypocrisy: how is conquering lesser races any different than how the HurQ' treated the Klingons? Its not.
The Empire as it has been in the last 2 centuries is an era of corruption and degeneration into the very thing they hated. That lawyer who spoke to Archer mentioned how one caste of the Klingon Empire was bullying the others into submission. How much of Klingon Heritage was lost in this manner? How much of Klingon cultural diversity was destroyed?
The Empire we saw in the TOS-TNG eras was a vestigal Empire because it lost sight of it original ideals. So much, we don't even know what they were because all we've seen of the Empire is "Proud Warrior Race Guy." There's more to it though.
The Klingon people have always been very accepting of other cultures even if they want to conquer them. Shakespeare is always at his best in the original Klingon after all.
Perhaps now is a chance for the Klingon people to refind their heritage beyond being blood knights. To find the honor in what they've lost and in their differences.
You say it loses the Klingon way? I say it restores it. There will always be honor and glory in battle, but there is honor and glory in many ways the Klingon people have forgotten.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
Or so the load screens still say when I change zones.
Fankly Starfleet has it head up its on protocals so far they couldnt see daylight if it was piped in on a dedicated line.
The Borg, the Undine prescence and those iconic ST personalities that left the UFP because their warnings where ignored are more than enough proof of it.
J'mpok an Undine? maybe, he did ascend to power under mysteriuos circumstances. Of course if true his body wont have time to grow cold before it hits the floor as the Empire doesnt take such situations lightly like the feds do.
Of course this is Cryptic and they will roll the Empire under the bus for a darsek so I hold no illusions how the storyline will go.
R.I.P
Lack of safety due to a society mindlessly locked its warrior cast mind set, yes it blowing up was a symptom of the Empires cultural mindset. Why did they need to needed to over mine their moon, hell how do you over mine a celestial body to the point t explodes!?
There is incompetence and there is blow up the moon.
Yet you cant seem to grasp the fact that the entire Klingon race is a warrior race. that does not have the same moral values or goals as your beloved federation.
No matter what the books tell you that the Klingons were based on, the species has been written into by so many different people that it is at this point unlike any real world example as a true culture, but you can take examples from the individual lvl and apply them, and the fact show that a diverse community is more isolated, withdrawn, distrustful and less caring about others around them.
As a student of history you are also still sticking to your guns about diversity being a good thing for a culture? when it shown throughout history that diversity erodes single culture and creates a new .
1.The community loses cohesion. can be seen in game as lack of team work and the me me me mentality.
2. Distorts our priorities. can be seen in game as people not donating to fleet projects because they so not benefit or think hey let the other guy donate dil I need mine for me.
3. It breeds prejudice, This can be seen in me, hey that guy don't donate to projects as much as I do why does he/she who does not care as much as I do get the same ( insert blank as me ) allowed the same things.
I love how the feddy bears come in here with their feddy avatars, and start throwing around how smart they are rather than making their argument. now I know I am not being politically correct with this, and anybody with a semi liberal slant will indeed think I am crazy. for one reason only, what im saying goes against their rule book. they do not care if facts do not back them up or not.
and now I can add jerk the names I have been called all in the name of diversity. you guys really need to be more respectful of other ideas, and practice what you preach.
apparently you have not been following the entire conversation I have said before alien species have a place in the Empire. just that they need to know it is The Klingon Empire not the Orion syndicate or what ever other little thing they USED to be called. and I think that they should be treated the same way we treat the Romulans. once they hit T5 and need a ship they should have their own race specific ships and not be allowed top of the line Klingon ships the same way Romulans are treated.
the way this game works the devs already favor the feds and the rommies more than the Klingons, but they also have it so Klingons are not favored even in the Klingon Empire. if you want true diversity we need to be different and in a space game played primarily in space, space vessels are about the only way it can be done unless you lose your identity and drop thedes at the door.
Because once in a while you get an incompetent petaQ that needs to be executed. Just like our old petaQ of a transporter officer in the shipyard on Qo'noS in STO.
How do you relate this with the Empire's expanisonism and warlike nature being it's downfall, when it's a established fact that it worked for them for ages and only made the Empire stronger is beyond me.
these guys wont see the leadership at that time as bad because it was the mush loved by the federation Gorkon that allowed it to happen.
where if they had continued the war footing and taken over more mineral rich planets the need for over mining would not have been there.
it wasn't a normal explosion, though, because it released a subspace shockwave...praxis was a dilithium mining operation, but as far as i know, dilithium doesn't have supspace properties of any kind, so i don't know how the hell that happened
maybe it wasn't overmining; maybe they were testing subspace weapons and something went wrong
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In the name of diversity?
Your words. Buddy, you're the one not practicing what they teach. You essentially called anyone with a Fed avatar a pretender and someone who doesn't care about the Empire. Far from it. I actually like the KDF side more than I do the Federation and I don't appreciate you judging me based on a default avatar I never changed.
And second your argument doesnt work because that means all those individual races don't fit into the KDF story either. You want 5 more factions?
Essentially you want the Empire to be a Klingon-only club. Considering how many people play KDF as is, what do you think it will be like when 5 of the player races disappear.
Emptier than it is now.
And the Empire would be a lot less interesting. The new diversity forming adds new ideas and concepts to the Empire. It adds depth. We've all watched Klingon politics before, its been done to death. Now lets see how those same politicians handle non-Klingon politics in their arena.
I'd say the addition of the Gorn, Ferasans, Orions, Letheans and Nausicaans makes for a more interesting Empire, if only because its not what's expected of them. Its something new. Its a change. And change is inevitable. Up till now the Klingon Empire has been locked, surrounded on 3/4ths of its borders by the Federation. That's changing. They have a chance to grow and expand and be a new Klingon Empire. And its coming with a cost. An interesting cost.
Cryptic may not be doing enough with it, but this new Empire can grow in ways you never imagined.
Oh and about it being like the Federation. Established in Enterprise in a Time Travel foray that the Empire will eventually be a part of the Federation. Gene even wanted the Klingons in TNG to be already integrated (this changed at the request of Michael Dorn).
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
no, no. Not one incompetent petaQ, that's is an entire system. With that thought European Colonialism and American unrestrained capitalism totally works, even though only a minority really benefited and it causes massive disasters.
The Klingon empire is about 500 years old, Well the Inter Stellar Klingon Empire, they went up against the Federation who stymied them. The Romulans who stymied them, the Gorn Who until recently in STO stymied them, the Cardassians who turned to the dominion which nearly destroyed all 3 major Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.
that's not "Working" that's barely avoiding cataclysmic disasters.
Good think the Klinks never pissed off that god-like-alien who wiped out the Hoos-nat because they killed his wife.
A possible future timeline that may or may not happen based on any action of any relevant individual in between ENT and the suposed battle against the sphere builders. And even then, as far as I remember, there was no mention that the forces fighting are all members of the Federation, but rather an alliance against the sphere builders led by the Federation. What to me sounds much more similar to the DS9 alliance against the Dominion.
Sorry, this particular episode has always been a nitpick of mine.
Besides, as far as STO is concerned, the Klingons are not a part of the Federation in the 29-th century if we judge by the different timeships that were captured from the Tholians.
Sorry, but I'm having serious trouble to basically understand what you're trying to say throughout this entire thread. None of it makes any sense to me. *shrugs*
Maybe it's just me and I need to sleep it off because it's getting late around here.
Or maybe it's you because I'm getting a slight impression that you personally dislike the manner in which the Klingon Emprie lives and deals with things, so you're needlessly screaming DOOOOOM because of it.
and to the guy who never changed his avatar and is crying that im assuming. id like to meet your Klingon in game just to see this long played lvl 50 well outfitted Klingon that you like so much. My EC is on it being an alien. since you are defending them so.
Also I try very hard not to get personal with things I say and keep it game based so if you have a federation avatar you might as well be walking around in a feddy bear uniform to me.
and me practice what I teach/ preach LOL all along I have been consistent or used sarcasm to point out why others are not following their own beliefs. Probably just a problem with one of our universal translators not working properly that is causing the confusion.
what I wish J'mpok would do is dump any alliance with the feddy bears go to the Voth ally with them ( their beef is with the alpha quad and the theory of origin threat, which the Klingons are not a threat too) then use this alliance with the voth to defeat the undine and by proxy the Federation once we show them the evidence that the federation is heavily infiltrated. and let the war escalate.
Then the feddy bears can show the galaxy their truly evil colors once again by entering an alliance with the BORG AGAIN! to try and save themselves. that is till the borg find out they are also infiltrated by their most dangerous enemy the undine.
sarcasm, you want to say you want diversity but you want everything the Klingons have without giving up anything of your own. that isn't diversity its destroying the Klingon culture.
Once again proof that diversity is bad for the Empire and will eventually lead to its demise.
I just love it when the Op makes my points for me without even realizing it.
just because SOL will one day burn out does not mean we need to speed it along. Same holds true for the Empire.
I think your confusing the Lady Sirella, Martoks wife with Grilka, Worfs wife who was married to Quark for a short time.
but I may be wrong.
As for conquering other races being different, well the Empire integrates aliens into it, that's fine and I don't have a problem with it the become Klingon. unlike the orions who enslave others which is more along the lines of the hurq.
What makes you think the Undine haven't already compramised what passes as this 'Section 31'
Who else is better than the Undine to act as a hidden force within Starfleet, influencing admirals and getting close to the Legitimate intelligence networks, these people are already so secretive it wouldn't be hard for an undine infiltrator to take one over without anybody in Starfleet proper noticing
Again I ask, Why are people so sure that 31 is gonna sweep away the Undine, you really think the undine wouldn't target them for infiltration early on, use them to the fullest
Also, lots of defending J'mpok of the wars, Well lets delve into the path to 2409 and look at the Fed side, Lots of stuff in there that indicates that the Presidents decisions were heavily influenced by public opinion, and political pressures, similar to the chancellor who is pressured by the nature of Klingons for conflict
Not to mention the likely hood of Undine sabotaging the peace talks from BOTH sides to deliberately accelerate the war
J'mpok basically gave them the WAR THE UNDINE WANTED ALL ALONG!
Hes not going to root them out by attacking the Federation, all he does is give the Undine infiltrators a chaotic scapegoat, make the public hate the Klingons, distract them from Starfleets inner turmoil
If really think the Federation are going to look interogating their own officers for infiltrators, when the Klingons are on the Boarder with charged disruptor banks then think again
who in the empire really cares either way we get to kill an enemy be it Starfleet or undine.
why do Klingons get into blood feuds and civil wars? cause they are bored when they don't have somebody else to fight.
no but really what I said was just one a many possible ways to go about it. take it for what it was an opinion and just as A$$CRACK$ we all have one.
Alternatively, Section 31 is in the perfect position to take the lead, precisely because they're not beholden to the head-in-the-sand people at the top and can therefore take action against the Undine with impunity.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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