Actually, Martok started the war with the Romulans. The claim that J'mpok provoked the war with the RSE is false.
And the Gorn are first mentioned in STO after the Undine are discovered by the Letheans on Qo'noS. After the Undine infiltrators in the House of Konjah were aprehended and brought before J'mpok and the High Council, Ja'rod was called in the Chancellor's chamber and afterwards he vanished from the radar with his ship for a while, before returning from the undercover reconaissance mission in Gorn space to confirm that the Undine had taken over the Gorn Hegemony.
That's when he started the invasion of the Gorn. The claim that J'pok threatened the Gorn before that is false.
While the KDF-Gorn war lasted, the Federation and the KDF were still allies. The Federation even organized several peace conferences between the Empire and the Hegemony in order to mediate a peacefull solution. After those negotiations failed for the last time, the Federation Council declared the KDF-Gorn war to be illegal and that's when things started going downhill between the Empire and the Federation.
So the claim that he threatened the Federation before the Undine were exposed is also false.
Actually the actual "war" with the Gorn broke out after the last peace conference failed. Before that it were just... "heavy tensions"
And LMAO!!! :P Are you really trying to compare relations between completely alien species on an interstellar scale in the 25-th century, that are experiencing infiltrations by another shapeshifting alien species from another dimension with the cold war and hunting spies between NATO & USSR??
LOL
Well sci fi races especially in Star Trek are usually in one way or another based on real live/earth nations so... Making comparisons isn't wrong.
Won't comment how accurate those comparisons are....
As you're probably aware by now, J'mpok's rise to power was supported by the House of Duras. Also, from everything we have seen in game, Ja'rod is more or less J'mpok's right hand man in almost every affair. Their two Great Houses are tied very closely together.
While the House of Duras was banished, Torg took Ja'rod under his own wing and enabled him to prosper and grow into the warrior that he is today. Torg was like a father to Ja'rod.
The decision to banish the House of Torg was not an easy one for J'mpok personally, but he did right for the Emprie. As he is shown to always do throughout the entire game.
One of the few things I like about the STO story is how Ja'rod is portrayed. You'd expect from a "house of Duras member", and more particular from a son of a Duras sister (don't remember which one) that a lazy writer would make him another mustage twirling villain like all his relatives.
But he seems to be an honorable and competent captain...
I'm curious who could even replace J'empok at this point, Worf likely won't want to be chancellor given his previous record. The only person who comes to mind as a viable replacement is Ja'rod who is pretty similar in his way of thinking to J'empok anyway. The only other strong character KDF side we are shown is the player and for obvious reasons they will never be Chancellor.
Plus I think old J'empok gets a lot of flack from people because he was the one that killed the much beloved Martok.
I give you Gorkon, but Gowron? lol Gowron was nowhere near honorable or competent, the only cool thing about Gowron were his "crazy eyes".
And his speech patterns. All together now: "Woooof."
Seriously, though, the only reason Gowron seems to have gotten the job is because Worf killed his competitor for unrelated reasons.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Well sci fi races especially in Star Trek are usually in one way or another based on real live/earth nations so... Making comparisons isn't wrong.
Won't comment how accurate those comparisons are....
Yes they are, but what I was saying is there is no way you can compare a cold war on our planet that is our only home, between 2 sides consisted of Humans hunting Human spies with a cold war or an interstellar scale, between two alien species with different philosophies and civilizations, where one of them is hunting a third alien species' spies that can shapeshift and are from another dimension, taking into consideration the technology of the 25-th century.
It just does not compute.
I'm curious who could even replace J'empok at this point, Worf likely won't want to be chancellor given his previous record. The only person who comes to mind as a viable replacement is Ja'rod who is pretty similar in his way of thinking to J'empok anyway. The only other strong character KDF side we are shown is the player and for obvious reasons they will never be Chancellor.
Honestly, there's no need to replace J'mpok or D'tan or Aennik Okeg. They're just placeholder leaders, the story is about our characters with some iconic Trek chars. Cryptic can get to do VO work.
I have the feeling that the whole "J'mpok is an Undine" is wishfull thinking from the Fed. playerbase on the forum, because many just can't bare to accept that their "White Knight" faction can mess up royally, while the "dirty, barbaric" Klingons were right. Therefore - J'mpok must be Undine, so they can sleep easier at night. :rolleyes:
Plus I think old J'empok gets a lot of flack from people because he was the one that killed the much beloved Martok.
Martok got the symphaties of many people in DS9. He was really cool and likeable character. People tend to dislike J'mpok simply for killing Martok, but if you look at it objectively - the truth of the matter is that it's just the Klingon way. Worf killed Gowron, J'mpok killed Martok and so on. If it wasn't J'mpok, it would have been someone else. Like Gowron used to say - the Chancellor can't show any signs of weakness, otherwise he signed his death sentence.
And his speech patterns. All together now: "Woooof."
Yeah, I think Gowron's appearance and behavior by itself is what made many of use kinda' like the character even though the way his character was written he was not very admirable.
Actually, Martok started the war with the Romulans. The claim that J'mpok provoked the war with the RSE is false.
And the Gorn are first mentioned in STO after the Undine are discovered by the Letheans on Qo'noS. After the Undine infiltrators in the House of Konjah were aprehended and brought before J'mpok and the High Council, Ja'rod was called in the Chancellor's chamber and afterwards he vanished from the radar with his ship for a while, before returning from the undercover reconaissance mission in Gorn space to confirm that the Undine had taken over the Gorn Hegemony.
That's when he started the invasion of the Gorn. The claim that J'pok threatened the Gorn before that is false.
While the KDF-Gorn war lasted, the Federation and the KDF were still allies. The Federation even organized several peace conferences between the Empire and the Hegemony in order to mediate a peacefull solution. After those negotiations failed for the last time, the Federation Council declared the KDF-Gorn war to be illegal and that's when things started going downhill between the Empire and the Federation.
So the claim that he threatened the Federation before the Undine were exposed is also false.
Well I guess everyone has to read path to 2409 for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
As you're probably aware by now, J'mpok's rise to power was supported by the House of Duras. Also, from everything we have seen in game, Ja'rod is more or less J'mpok's right hand man in almost every affair. Their two Great Houses are tied very closely together.
While the House of Duras was banished, Torg took Ja'rod under his own wing and enabled him to prosper and grow into the warrior that he is today. Torg was like a father to Ja'rod.
The decision to banish the House of Torg was not an easy one for J'mpok personally, but he did right for the Emprie. As he is shown to always do throughout the entire game.
Yet still this "hard" decision was only to his advantage: Cutting the cords with Torg before they were exposed allowed J'mpok to remain in charge and protect his honour, while any knowledge Torg might have had about J'mpoks rise to power is lost. Alongside, he is isolating Ja'rod this way, further securing his rule over the empire.
Yes they are, but what I was saying is there is no way you can compare a cold war on our planet that is our only home, between 2 sides consisted of Humans hunting Human spies with a cold war or an interstellar scale, between two alien species with different philosophies and civilizations, where one of them is hunting a third alien species' spies that can shapeshift and are from another dimension, taking into consideration the technology of the 25-th century.
It just does not compute.
Well we don't have that much possible analogies for that scenario. In any case: Declaring war and invading your former ally in order to hunt those shapeshift aliens doesn't compute either.
J'Mpok, as much as I personally dislike him, is the leader that the Klingon empire needs at this time. As far as the end of the war goes Section 31 will probably come forward with evidence or remove the Undine infiltrators while the players wonder what direction the story is going.
Well we don't have that much possible analogies for that scenario. In any case: Declaring war and invading your former ally in order to hunt those shapeshift aliens doesn't compute either.
So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked another poster that claimed this.
Given the circumistances in STO in 2409, how would you deal with a very strong faction that is infiltrated with alien shapeshifters and always sticks it's proverbial head in the sand like an ostrich whenever they hear the word "Undine"?
So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked another poster that claimed this.
Given the circumistances in STO in 2409, how would you deal with a very strong faction that is infiltrated with alien shapeshifters and always sticks it's proverbial head in the sand like an ostrich whenever they hear the word "Undine"?
Let me ask you a question. How did the Klingons find the Undine impersonating that Vulcan ambassador, who was living the high life in the very heart of the Federation? Do that, and then plaster the video all over whatever equivalent of the Internet Star Trek has so the Federation public actually learns about it. Seriously, either the Federation public is completely apathetic or the Federation is actively covering up the situation. So force the public to confront the problem and you might get somewhere.
Or, there's actually a third explanation nobody seems to be considering. In real life we really only ever hear about terrorist plots when they slip through and people die. A lot of them get quietly shut down by security services before they get that far. It could be the Federation isn't making a big deal out of the infiltration because they're catching and killing most of the attempted infiltrators themselves and keeping it quiet.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Or, there's actually a third explanation nobody seems to be considering. In real life we really only ever hear about terrorist plots when they slip through and people die. A lot of them get quietly shut down by security services before they get that far. It could be the Federation isn't making a big deal out of the infiltration because they're catching and killing most of the attempted infiltrators themselves and keeping it quiet.
and yet they somehow missed ambassdor sokketh, admiral zelle, the entire crew of the athens, and dr. cooper...all rather high profile targets
if the federation is actually doing anything, they're doing a terrible job, and of course i, as the player character, have to clean up after their messes
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked another poster that claimed this.
Given the circumistances in STO in 2409, how would you deal with a very strong faction that is infiltrated with alien shapeshifters and always sticks it's proverbial head in the sand like an ostrich whenever they hear the word "Undine"?
Presenting proofs and convincing core starfleet personnel would have been the obvious solution. At least Worf should still remember how Picard and the Enterprise on their very own stopped those parasites from taking over Starfleet Command.
Presenting proofs and convincing core starfleet personnel would have been the obvious solution. At least Worf should still remember how Picard and the Enterprise on their very own stopped those parasites from taking over Starfleet Command.
Thank you, at least somebody gets it.
And let's not forget that the proximal cause of the war wasn't the Undine infiltration. It was J'mpok invoking old territorial claims that the Klingons had ceded centuries ago and trying to take over Federation colonies in the Hromi Cluster. What in God's name does that have to do with the Undine, I ask you?
Don't try to pretend the Klingons are in the right any more than the Federation is. J'mpok lost the moral high ground, if indeed he ever had it, back in 2405 when he launched an unprovoked attack on civilian targets.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Yes they are, but what I was saying is there is no way you can compare a cold war on our planet that is our only home, between 2 sides consisted of Humans hunting Human spies with a cold war or an interstellar scale, between two alien species with different philosophies and civilizations, where one of them is hunting a third alien species' spies that can shapeshift and are from another dimension, taking into consideration the technology of the 25-th century.
It just does not compute.
Of course you can and of course that computes.
The real 25th century will not look that way, real aliens will not be Klingons.
This is a work of fiction based on fictional technologies and fictional races that is nothing but a playground to build analogies for real live situations.
Star Trek 6s events mirrored the break down of the sowiet union on purpose, cardassians we're build as an analogy for TRIBBLE and bajorans were (unthinkable to write that now) Taliban portrayed in a time before they became the world wide symbol for evil..
Everything in Star Trek can not only compared to situations in our current time, they are written with the very intention to do so. That's one of the major points of science fiction.
Presenting proofs and convincing core starfleet personnel would have been the obvious solution. At least Worf should still remember how Picard and the Enterprise on their very own stopped those parasites from taking over Starfleet Command.
agreed. in one of the VERY first missions on the Fedside, a Klingon warps in and DEMANDS you turn over an ambassador claiming he's a undine, now the Klingons, it turns out, are right, still you can, reasonably, ask the Klingon to provide proof. the Klingon reacts to this REASONABLE request by opening fire.
you'd think after nearly a century of alliance the Klingons would know how the federation works
no im just being diverse. I have been called crazy, a TRIBBLE, pro slavery, while in fact I am strongly against it, im just writing here how I would if I were really a Klingon. its proof that diversity is not a good thing and if you bashers had actually read the articles you would see you are making my point for me.
you don't want to hear a different opinion, or look at the facts in real world studies on the subject. and I really find it funny just how many of the name callers have federation avatars, its that im always right and no amount of discussion will ever change my mind attitude that has us at war.
stop picking one line out of context, just to promote the argument in the wrong direction.
1. personally I don't like J'mpok but he didn't do anything wrong that I see, hes our leader and till he is removed rightfully from power we follow his orders like them or not.
2. Personally I am against slavery and one of the reason im against diversity in the empire, how can we have Orion SLAVERS as officers ?
3. Personally im against Mercs' warriors for hire are not trustworthy so how can we have Nausicaan and lethean mercs as officers?
4. our fleet is Klingon officers only. some say well id never join if its like that. and to that I say we don't want you anyways.
5. I belive aliens belong in the game, in the empire and in fleets just never in command positions.
maybe that will clear things up or stir the pot more who knows. and in the end who really cares ?
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
2. Personally I am against slavery and one of the reason im against diversity in the empire, how can we have Orion SLAVERS as officers ?
3. Personally im against Mercs' warriors for hire are not trustworthy so how can we have Nausicaan and lethean mercs as officers?
4. our fleet is Klingon officers only. some say well id never join if its like that. and to that I say we don't want you anyways.
True dat! We are not like starfleet where every idiot with half of a brain gets to command a fooking ship. Look at them. Ferengi in uniform? Ugh! :mad:
Grinding for MkIV epic gear?
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
Let me ask you a question. How did the Klingons find the Undine impersonating that Vulcan ambassador, who was living the high life in the very heart of the Federation? Do that, and then plaster the video all over whatever equivalent of the Internet Star Trek has so the Federation public actually learns about it. Seriously, either the Federation public is completely apathetic or the Federation is actively covering up the situation. So force the public to confront the problem and you might get somewhere.
Plaster the video over the equivalent of the internet? LMAO What are we, in kindergarten now?
The entire KDF-Gorn war and all the proof that was unveiled was not enough evidence?
The fact that Ambassador Soketh was the one who recommended to reject the Klingon accusations of infiltration by calling the Undine "Peaceful explorers from fluidic space"? What happened when your player character revealed Soketh to be an Undine himself? What did Starfleet do? Tip: If you say nothing, you get 100 bars of GPL.
This doesn't work that way. The Federation public will believe Starfleet every single time over some random Klingons. And it seems that the Federation authorities and Starfleet have decided to completely ignore or put the issue under the rug, for some yet unknown reasons. Probably cause they're infiltrated as hell and Undine dictate their weird decisions on this topic.
They'll just tell the public that it's Klingons messing around for their own interest of conquest and the public will naturally believe their beloved Starfleet over some J'mpok over there. Every Undine encounter throughout the Fed. storyline is swept under the rug, doesn't that tell you something?
Or, there's actually a third explanation nobody seems to be considering. In real life we really only ever hear about terrorist plots when they slip through and people die. A lot of them get quietly shut down by security services before they get that far. It could be the Federation isn't making a big deal out of the infiltration because they're catching and killing most of the attempted infiltrators themselves and keeping it quiet.
Yep, they're catching them allright. :rolleyes: #cough#cooper#cough#
Presenting proofs and convincing core starfleet personnel would have been the obvious solution. At least Worf should still remember how Picard and the Enterprise on their very own stopped those parasites from taking over Starfleet Command.
Presenting proof to core Starfleet personnel? Hmm....let's see, throughout the Fed. storyline my character encounters Undine infiltrators that are revealed and reported to core Starfleet personnel. What did Starfleet do about it? 100 bars of GPL for you as well if you say 'nothing'!
So in that light, if Starfleet doesn't take seriously evidence presented by their own Officers - what makes you think they'll take the Klingons seriously?
Not to mention that they have been presented with evidence from the Gorn Hegemony which they conveniently decided to completely ignore, telling the KDF that it's really not that big of a deal.
And let's not forget that the proximal cause of the war wasn't the Undine infiltration. It was J'mpok invoking old territorial claims that the Klingons had ceded centuries ago and trying to take over Federation colonies in the Hromi Cluster. What in God's name does that have to do with the Undine, I ask you?
Don't try to pretend the Klingons are in the right any more than the Federation is. J'mpok lost the moral high ground, if indeed he ever had it, back in 2405 when he launched an unprovoked attack on civilian targets.
No, you guys clearly don't get it.
You can't eliminate infiltration in a 25-th century Federation by sending covert-ops and executing their top ranking personel without notice. Sooner or later they'll figure out what's going on and consider it an act of war anyway.
You need to put down your Federation tinted glasses for a moment and look at things from an objective perspective.
The Klingons are species that thrive on conflict and war for them is a way of life. It is to be expected that they'll easily jump at the opportunity to wage a war. The sole fact that their Federation "allies" stuck their fingers in their ears and went "Lalalalalalala" while the Klingons presented evidence of the Undine to them is an insult enough to go at war, espeically after the incidents in Romulan space.
Noone is saying that the Klingons are saints here. When they're at war, they're in it for the long haul. You can rest assured that they'll do their best to gain everything that they can while the war is on, in form of terrotories, resources and whatever else they need.
They were allies due to mutual interest on the big galactic scale. They're not friends and they're not family. They don't care about the Federation colonies or Starfleet lives.
What I'm trying to convey is the fact that the war could have been avoided if the Federation acted with at least half a brain. Once the war is on, you can't blame the Klingons for being.....Klingon.
I've been enjoying this thread, but one big nagging thing I have in my head and I can't get out:
I worry that somehow the KDF is gonna get screwed over with these changes they are making to the story in season 9. They are revamping the Undine arc, and it makes me wonder if the KDF will get the short end of the stick while somehow making the precious Federation still look like the good guys in the end.
Maybe this is just the paranoia of an old, grouchy, stubborn Klingon player, but I can't get it out of my head as to that is what they are going to do.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I've been enjoying this thread, but one big nagging thing I have in my head and I can't get out:
I worry that somehow the KDF is gonna get screwed over with these changes they are making to the story in season 9. They are revamping the Undine arc, and it makes me wonder if the KDF will get the short end of the stick while somehow making the precious Federation still look like the good guys in the end.
Maybe this is just the paranoia of an old, grouchy, stubborn Klingon player, but I can't get it out of my head as to that is what they are going to do.
Unfortunately, you're not the only one that had that thought. I was thinking the same thing recently and as another stubborn Klingon player this could be the breaking point.
I've been here since 2011 and watch the game go up & down, from trouble to success, but I have the serious impression that STO started going downhill rapidly after LoR (in terms of quality and my personal enjoyment) and I've been at the edge of the proverbial cliff ever since they announed that the EEPH is back in charge. If they really do this stupid thing both of us suspect, it just might be the thing that pushes me off that proverbial cliff.
I mean, I've been playing for 3 years and after 3 years they come in and tell me - "listen, all you played so far is a lie and we retconning that" all I can tell them is to bugger off. I didn't come here to play some mindless arcade for pre-school childen.
Unfortunately, this sounds exactly like something Cryptic would do.
I've been enjoying this thread, but one big nagging thing I have in my head and I can't get out:
I worry that somehow the KDF is gonna get screwed over with these changes they are making to the story in season 9. They are revamping the Undine arc, and it makes me wonder if the KDF will get the short end of the stick while somehow making the precious Federation still look like the good guys in the end.
Maybe this is just the paranoia of an old, grouchy, stubborn Klingon player, but I can't get it out of my head as to that is what they are going to do.
Frankly any change to the "Undine Advance" missions KDF-side would be a net improvement. It makes sense for the Feds to try and get the Undine to please stop, but the KDF is more likely to go in guns blazing and try to kill 'em all at the source. And more power to 'em.
That's assuming Cryptic is doing some actual script changes of course, instead of just a graphical update.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The converse would also be worth considering-How many times does a Klingon have to be right, before you'll listen to him (Trick question-you're a fed, you won't listen, regardless of how many times the Klingon's right.)
The Klingons were RIGHT about the Gorn. they fought a war, and when they dealt with their supposed 'allies' in the Federation, the Federation told them to pound sand, told them their word wasn't any good, that video evidence and interrogations they did weren't proof, etc. etc. etc.
After probably presenting cargo-carriers full of proof, the Empire ended up deciding the rational thing-which is why you got shot at. That rational thing being that NO amount of evidence would be sufficient on this matter in the eyes of Federation authorities-because the Federation is under the thumb of the Undine.
and they determined this because they know how the Federation works. See, let's say...
Kapt. Klah, let's call him that, let's say he hands over a big, thick datafile full of all kinds of proof that Sokketh is an Undine infiltrator. Let's say your Capt. follows protocol-and passes it up the chain of command.
Here's what's going to happen...
1. The evidence will not be believed-officially called 'bull****', just like the exposure of the Gorn undine was.
2. Capt. Fed will then get orders to protect Sokketh at all costs, and is given weapons-free authorization to do just that.
End result: shooting anyway, but at least a day to a day and a half of time's passed, and there's a good chance that if Capt. Fed actually Believed the evidence was genuine, his next scene will be his death-and-replacement, by another Undine, followed by shooting.
At the point in the conflict where this event actually happened, the Klingons have seen this pattern several times. There is no point in wasting the intervening steps between "Hand him over" and "Open Fire".
Maybe maybe not, maybe the captain would simply act if he had the evidance in his hands. How often did Picard radio back to starfleet HQ and ask for help everytime he had a difficult decision to make? he didn't. Starship Captains are expected to make those kinds of choices themselves. out in space, they ARE the federation. fact of the matter is expecting someone to turn over a federation citizen under the Captain's protection at the say so of a man he's at war with is so rediculasly stupid it baffles the mind
Unfortunately, you're not the only one that had that thought. I was thinking the same thing recently and as another stubborn Klingon player this could be the breaking point.
I've been here since 2011 and watch the game go up & down, from trouble to success, but I have the serious impression that STO started going downhill rapidly after LoR (in terms of quality and my personal enjoyment) and I've been at the edge of the proverbial cliff ever since they announed that the EEPH is back in charge. If they really do this stupid thing both of us suspect, it just might be the thing that pushes me off that proverbial cliff.
I mean, I've been playing for 3 years and after 3 years they come in and tell me - "listen, all you played so far is a lie and we retconning that" all I can tell them is to bugger off. I didn't come here to play some mindless arcade for pre-school childen.
Unfortunately, this sounds exactly like something Cryptic would do.
The same thoughts have crossed this stubborn Klingon players mind as well. Especially with the recent change at the top of Cryptic, last time this happened it was very unkind for the KDF to say the least.
I can even see them going so far as to pull a J'empok was the undine all along trick on us just to paint the feds in a good light as normal.
The same thoughts have crossed this stubborn Klingon players mind as well. Especially with the recent change at the top of Cryptic, last time this happened it was very unkind for the KDF to say the least.
I can even see them going so far as to pull a J'empok was the undine all along trick on us just to paint the feds in a good light as normal.
I don't see it happening. The revamped story on tribble is fairly neutral. Yes, Tuvok leads the expedition into Fluidic Space and yes Dr. Cooper is the one in charge of studying Borg Tech, but the former lets you take the lead and the second... well let's just say you get a very good idea of the moment he's killed and replaced.
Also, they've been making J'mpok very sympathetic lately. Siding with the House of Martok over his allies, the House of Torg for instance. We've not seen a single shred of evidence pointing to the Empire being infiltrated by the Undine.
The Empire is at a changing point. They have kept to their old ways for over a hundred years and what did they get for it? An alliance with the Federation while their territories stayed stagnate and even lost some worlds like Krios.
The Empire now, as much as its taking advantage of the situation, is finally, in a position to be a powerhouse again. If anything, J'mpok seems to have learned something from the Federation: that a diverse population means your stronger. The Gorn take positions as scientists and high security guards. The Ferasans and Letheans serve as excellent telepathic interrogators. The Orions, as slimy and devious and plotting behind the Council's back though they are, have created a stronger economic system for the Empire. And the Klingon people get to do what they do best: unleash the dogs of war.
I don't see it happening. The revamped story on tribble is fairly neutral. Yes, Tuvok leads the expedition into Fluidic Space and yes Dr. Cooper is the one in charge of studying Borg Tech, but the former lets you take the lead and the second... well let's just say you get a very good idea of the moment he's killed and replaced.
Also, they've been making J'mpok very sympathetic lately. Siding with the House of Martok over his allies, the House of Torg for instance. We've not seen a single shred of evidence pointing to the Empire being infiltrated by the Undine.
The Empire is at a changing point. They have kept to their old ways for over a hundred years and what did they get for it? An alliance with the Federation while their territories stayed stagnate and even lost some worlds like Krios.
The Empire now, as much as its taking advantage of the situation, is finally, in a position to be a powerhouse again. If anything, J'mpok seems to have learned something from the Federation: that a diverse population means your stronger. The Gorn take positions as scientists and high security guards. The Ferasans and Letheans serve as excellent telepathic interrogators. The Orions, as slimy and devious and plotting behind the Council's back though they are, have created a stronger economic system for the Empire. And the Klingon people get to do what they do best: unleash the dogs of war.
I agree that J'empok is the man for the job, he has undone the decline of the Klingon Empire that Dax and Worf talked about on DS9. The other races have made the Empire stronger and at its best for a long time.
That said I doubt the game will go anywhere with it, D'anglo has more or less come out and said that the KDF won't be a priority as they can't milk it as much as the blue side.
Comments
Actually the actual "war" with the Gorn broke out after the last peace conference failed. Before that it were just... "heavy tensions"
Well sci fi races especially in Star Trek are usually in one way or another based on real live/earth nations so... Making comparisons isn't wrong.
Won't comment how accurate those comparisons are....
One of the few things I like about the STO story is how Ja'rod is portrayed. You'd expect from a "house of Duras member", and more particular from a son of a Duras sister (don't remember which one) that a lazy writer would make him another mustage twirling villain like all his relatives.
But he seems to be an honorable and competent captain...
Plus I think old J'empok gets a lot of flack from people because he was the one that killed the much beloved Martok.
I give you Gorkon, but Gowron? lol
Oh yes! +1000
hip63 :P
And his speech patterns. All together now: "Woooof."
Seriously, though, the only reason Gowron seems to have gotten the job is because Worf killed his competitor for unrelated reasons.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Tbh I don't think Picard would of picked Duras anyway since he and the Ent D crew were onto him being shady as hell.
True. All of it.
Incompetent but fun as hell^^
Yes they are, but what I was saying is there is no way you can compare a cold war on our planet that is our only home, between 2 sides consisted of Humans hunting Human spies with a cold war or an interstellar scale, between two alien species with different philosophies and civilizations, where one of them is hunting a third alien species' spies that can shapeshift and are from another dimension, taking into consideration the technology of the 25-th century.
It just does not compute.
Honestly, there's no need to replace J'mpok or D'tan or Aennik Okeg. They're just placeholder leaders, the story is about our characters with some iconic Trek chars. Cryptic can get to do VO work.
I have the feeling that the whole "J'mpok is an Undine" is wishfull thinking from the Fed. playerbase on the forum, because many just can't bare to accept that their "White Knight" faction can mess up royally, while the "dirty, barbaric" Klingons were right. Therefore - J'mpok must be Undine, so they can sleep easier at night. :rolleyes:
And also this:
Martok got the symphaties of many people in DS9. He was really cool and likeable character. People tend to dislike J'mpok simply for killing Martok, but if you look at it objectively - the truth of the matter is that it's just the Klingon way. Worf killed Gowron, J'mpok killed Martok and so on. If it wasn't J'mpok, it would have been someone else. Like Gowron used to say - the Chancellor can't show any signs of weakness, otherwise he signed his death sentence.
Yeah, I think Gowron's appearance and behavior by itself is what made many of use kinda' like the character even though the way his character was written he was not very admirable.
Yet still this "hard" decision was only to his advantage: Cutting the cords with Torg before they were exposed allowed J'mpok to remain in charge and protect his honour, while any knowledge Torg might have had about J'mpoks rise to power is lost. Alongside, he is isolating Ja'rod this way, further securing his rule over the empire.
Well we don't have that much possible analogies for that scenario. In any case: Declaring war and invading your former ally in order to hunt those shapeshift aliens doesn't compute either.
So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked another poster that claimed this.
Given the circumistances in STO in 2409, how would you deal with a very strong faction that is infiltrated with alien shapeshifters and always sticks it's proverbial head in the sand like an ostrich whenever they hear the word "Undine"?
Let me ask you a question. How did the Klingons find the Undine impersonating that Vulcan ambassador, who was living the high life in the very heart of the Federation? Do that, and then plaster the video all over whatever equivalent of the Internet Star Trek has so the Federation public actually learns about it. Seriously, either the Federation public is completely apathetic or the Federation is actively covering up the situation. So force the public to confront the problem and you might get somewhere.
Or, there's actually a third explanation nobody seems to be considering. In real life we really only ever hear about terrorist plots when they slip through and people die. A lot of them get quietly shut down by security services before they get that far. It could be the Federation isn't making a big deal out of the infiltration because they're catching and killing most of the attempted infiltrators themselves and keeping it quiet.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
if the federation is actually doing anything, they're doing a terrible job, and of course i, as the player character, have to clean up after their messes
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Presenting proofs and convincing core starfleet personnel would have been the obvious solution. At least Worf should still remember how Picard and the Enterprise on their very own stopped those parasites from taking over Starfleet Command.
Thank you, at least somebody gets it.
And let's not forget that the proximal cause of the war wasn't the Undine infiltration. It was J'mpok invoking old territorial claims that the Klingons had ceded centuries ago and trying to take over Federation colonies in the Hromi Cluster. What in God's name does that have to do with the Undine, I ask you?
Don't try to pretend the Klingons are in the right any more than the Federation is. J'mpok lost the moral high ground, if indeed he ever had it, back in 2405 when he launched an unprovoked attack on civilian targets.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Of course you can and of course that computes.
The real 25th century will not look that way, real aliens will not be Klingons.
This is a work of fiction based on fictional technologies and fictional races that is nothing but a playground to build analogies for real live situations.
Star Trek 6s events mirrored the break down of the sowiet union on purpose, cardassians we're build as an analogy for TRIBBLE and bajorans were (unthinkable to write that now) Taliban portrayed in a time before they became the world wide symbol for evil..
Everything in Star Trek can not only compared to situations in our current time, they are written with the very intention to do so. That's one of the major points of science fiction.
agreed. in one of the VERY first missions on the Fedside, a Klingon warps in and DEMANDS you turn over an ambassador claiming he's a undine, now the Klingons, it turns out, are right, still you can, reasonably, ask the Klingon to provide proof. the Klingon reacts to this REASONABLE request by opening fire.
you'd think after nearly a century of alliance the Klingons would know how the federation works
Challenge J'mpok is our Lord, Leader and Savior
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
no im just being diverse. I have been called crazy, a TRIBBLE, pro slavery, while in fact I am strongly against it, im just writing here how I would if I were really a Klingon. its proof that diversity is not a good thing and if you bashers had actually read the articles you would see you are making my point for me.
you don't want to hear a different opinion, or look at the facts in real world studies on the subject. and I really find it funny just how many of the name callers have federation avatars, its that im always right and no amount of discussion will ever change my mind attitude that has us at war.
stop picking one line out of context, just to promote the argument in the wrong direction.
1. personally I don't like J'mpok but he didn't do anything wrong that I see, hes our leader and till he is removed rightfully from power we follow his orders like them or not.
2. Personally I am against slavery and one of the reason im against diversity in the empire, how can we have Orion SLAVERS as officers ?
3. Personally im against Mercs' warriors for hire are not trustworthy so how can we have Nausicaan and lethean mercs as officers?
4. our fleet is Klingon officers only. some say well id never join if its like that. and to that I say we don't want you anyways.
5. I belive aliens belong in the game, in the empire and in fleets just never in command positions.
maybe that will clear things up or stir the pot more who knows. and in the end who really cares ?
True dat! We are not like starfleet where every idiot with half of a brain gets to command a fooking ship. Look at them. Ferengi in uniform? Ugh! :mad:
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Plaster the video over the equivalent of the internet? LMAO
The entire KDF-Gorn war and all the proof that was unveiled was not enough evidence?
The fact that Ambassador Soketh was the one who recommended to reject the Klingon accusations of infiltration by calling the Undine "Peaceful explorers from fluidic space"? What happened when your player character revealed Soketh to be an Undine himself? What did Starfleet do? Tip: If you say nothing, you get 100 bars of GPL.
This doesn't work that way. The Federation public will believe Starfleet every single time over some random Klingons. And it seems that the Federation authorities and Starfleet have decided to completely ignore or put the issue under the rug, for some yet unknown reasons. Probably cause they're infiltrated as hell and Undine dictate their weird decisions on this topic.
They'll just tell the public that it's Klingons messing around for their own interest of conquest and the public will naturally believe their beloved Starfleet over some J'mpok over there. Every Undine encounter throughout the Fed. storyline is swept under the rug, doesn't that tell you something?
Yep, they're catching them allright. :rolleyes: #cough#cooper#cough#
Presenting proof to core Starfleet personnel? Hmm....let's see, throughout the Fed. storyline my character encounters Undine infiltrators that are revealed and reported to core Starfleet personnel. What did Starfleet do about it? 100 bars of GPL for you as well if you say 'nothing'!
So in that light, if Starfleet doesn't take seriously evidence presented by their own Officers - what makes you think they'll take the Klingons seriously?
Not to mention that they have been presented with evidence from the Gorn Hegemony which they conveniently decided to completely ignore, telling the KDF that it's really not that big of a deal.
No, you guys clearly don't get it.
You can't eliminate infiltration in a 25-th century Federation by sending covert-ops and executing their top ranking personel without notice. Sooner or later they'll figure out what's going on and consider it an act of war anyway.
You need to put down your Federation tinted glasses for a moment and look at things from an objective perspective.
The Klingons are species that thrive on conflict and war for them is a way of life. It is to be expected that they'll easily jump at the opportunity to wage a war. The sole fact that their Federation "allies" stuck their fingers in their ears and went "Lalalalalalala" while the Klingons presented evidence of the Undine to them is an insult enough to go at war, espeically after the incidents in Romulan space.
Noone is saying that the Klingons are saints here. When they're at war, they're in it for the long haul. You can rest assured that they'll do their best to gain everything that they can while the war is on, in form of terrotories, resources and whatever else they need.
They were allies due to mutual interest on the big galactic scale. They're not friends and they're not family. They don't care about the Federation colonies or Starfleet lives.
What I'm trying to convey is the fact that the war could have been avoided if the Federation acted with at least half a brain. Once the war is on, you can't blame the Klingons for being.....Klingon.
I worry that somehow the KDF is gonna get screwed over with these changes they are making to the story in season 9. They are revamping the Undine arc, and it makes me wonder if the KDF will get the short end of the stick while somehow making the precious Federation still look like the good guys in the end.
Maybe this is just the paranoia of an old, grouchy, stubborn Klingon player, but I can't get it out of my head as to that is what they are going to do.
Unfortunately, you're not the only one that had that thought. I was thinking the same thing recently and as another stubborn Klingon player this could be the breaking point.
I've been here since 2011 and watch the game go up & down, from trouble to success, but I have the serious impression that STO started going downhill rapidly after LoR (in terms of quality and my personal enjoyment) and I've been at the edge of the proverbial cliff ever since they announed that the EEPH is back in charge. If they really do this stupid thing both of us suspect, it just might be the thing that pushes me off that proverbial cliff.
I mean, I've been playing for 3 years and after 3 years they come in and tell me - "listen, all you played so far is a lie and we retconning that" all I can tell them is to bugger off. I didn't come here to play some mindless arcade for pre-school childen.
Unfortunately, this sounds exactly like something Cryptic would do.
Frankly any change to the "Undine Advance" missions KDF-side would be a net improvement. It makes sense for the Feds to try and get the Undine to please stop, but the KDF is more likely to go in guns blazing and try to kill 'em all at the source. And more power to 'em.
That's assuming Cryptic is doing some actual script changes of course, instead of just a graphical update.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Maybe maybe not, maybe the captain would simply act if he had the evidance in his hands. How often did Picard radio back to starfleet HQ and ask for help everytime he had a difficult decision to make? he didn't. Starship Captains are expected to make those kinds of choices themselves. out in space, they ARE the federation. fact of the matter is expecting someone to turn over a federation citizen under the Captain's protection at the say so of a man he's at war with is so rediculasly stupid it baffles the mind
The same thoughts have crossed this stubborn Klingon players mind as well. Especially with the recent change at the top of Cryptic, last time this happened it was very unkind for the KDF to say the least.
I can even see them going so far as to pull a J'empok was the undine all along trick on us just to paint the feds in a good light as normal.
I don't see it happening. The revamped story on tribble is fairly neutral. Yes, Tuvok leads the expedition into Fluidic Space and yes Dr. Cooper is the one in charge of studying Borg Tech, but the former lets you take the lead and the second... well let's just say you get a very good idea of the moment he's killed and replaced.
Also, they've been making J'mpok very sympathetic lately. Siding with the House of Martok over his allies, the House of Torg for instance. We've not seen a single shred of evidence pointing to the Empire being infiltrated by the Undine.
The Empire is at a changing point. They have kept to their old ways for over a hundred years and what did they get for it? An alliance with the Federation while their territories stayed stagnate and even lost some worlds like Krios.
The Empire now, as much as its taking advantage of the situation, is finally, in a position to be a powerhouse again. If anything, J'mpok seems to have learned something from the Federation: that a diverse population means your stronger. The Gorn take positions as scientists and high security guards. The Ferasans and Letheans serve as excellent telepathic interrogators. The Orions, as slimy and devious and plotting behind the Council's back though they are, have created a stronger economic system for the Empire. And the Klingon people get to do what they do best: unleash the dogs of war.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
I agree that J'empok is the man for the job, he has undone the decline of the Klingon Empire that Dax and Worf talked about on DS9. The other races have made the Empire stronger and at its best for a long time.
That said I doubt the game will go anywhere with it, D'anglo has more or less come out and said that the KDF won't be a priority as they can't milk it as much as the blue side.