VD I know what you are saying. You are saying all *mades are the same and all PuGs are more or less the same. In the fleets I used to play with we would role the queues as 4 escorts and a Cruiser some of which were running experimental builds. Being in the same fleet and playing together for a few matches a week only puts that group slightly above a KDF PuG. The only way this works if the Caual PvP players feel their enjoyment goes up at the very least 50% while riding the coat tails of the more established PvPer.
Well, not really saying that all *mades are the same nor that all PUGs are the same. More a case that the *mades often have the advantage, regardless of anything else going on - of having played together. Even OPvP PUGmades tend to be folks that have played together...cause well, it tends to be the same folks talking and X'ing up. Beyond that, both *mades and PUGs could be all over the place.
You could have PUGs that work really well together. You could have PUGs that they don't even realize there are other folks there cause they're so set in their single-player mindset. You could have *mades that are finely tuned comps and you could have *mades that are just guys that know each other and are on at the same time.
It was mainly about not understanding why folks are so dismissive of experience. You give the example of a few matches a week only giving a slight edge over the PUG. For that first week. What about after the second week? What about after the fourth month? It adds up.
Very few folks are born Rock Stars of PvP. It's going to come with experience, it's going to come from the folks they fly with, it's going to come with so many things.
Which is just a side peeve...
...and another side peeve is I guess I've got to redefine myself in STO. I consider myself casual....consider myself average on a good day. But what Cryptic's done since the F2P conversion has lowered the bar so much...redefined the casual player in the game. I hate calling those folks casual players - cause by my definition, they're nowhere near casual MMO players - they wouldn't even qualify as casual Facebook gamers...lol. They're the folks that one day found Minesweeper on their computers and played it a couple of times...meh.
So I get distracted with the mention of casual PvPer. Myself and folks I know that are like me...that's not what we are. Oh, no doubt - the folks being described are overly abundant in the game...they're just given a far more insulting label.
I get just as much joy having friends on the opposing team as I do with them on my team. But that might just be me.
Some folks enjoy playing both against and with friends. Some prefer just playing with friends against others. Some that prefer both, would still like a reasonable chance of playing with...
Something tells me Premades will never see their queues pop again. No more Pug stomping and no more gloating about superior cheesework...uh I mean teamwork.
Hopefully the Premades finally realize they are the source of so many problems in this game and the #1 reason for the dwindling number of pvpers. STO was designed as a team game but not a game of Premades where for instance a "healer" is armed with nothing but turrets.
Turrets too OP. Please nerf.
Never thought I'd see the day where people complain about the weakest weapon in the game as being cheese, but I guess it's true what they say, people can complain about anything.
Mixed queues? This means...we underpowered poor Feds will fight together with the super uber OP evul Klinguns!
Me with the King of vapers, I can't wait!:D
You are a traitor and a disgrace to your uniform. Take those pips off before I rip them off, you traitorous Klingon sympathizer!
Heh, a case could actually be made to nerf Turrets. Check out the boost they receive from CSV vs. DHCs. They go from ~26% the damage of DHCs to over 70% the damage of DHCs when using CSV...with a 360 arc instead of 45 arc...and 4 shots per cycle instead of 2 shots per cycle for those per pulse additional items. Turrets are OP.
Why aren't you happy about the changes? Don't we all get what we wanted?
Pugs can now play against pugs without being stomped most of the time.
Premades can now play against premades without having to stomp a bunch of pugs in between.
win-win imho
Exactly.
Hardcore PvP players, established PvP fleets get to keep the queuing up as they desire.
Lone players get to pug in an actual pug environment.
If you're 2 or 3 players and want to team, use existing chats.
And one can have fun losing. I love Ker'rat for the fact that you never know exactly what you're going to get. I probably go about 50/50 with most of my deaths going to various HOBOs. I had a cool fight with Mini about a week ago where I got instakilled a couple times, I ganked him while he tried to run, and one very well timed subnuc ruined an attack hilariously.
I'm not lazy for not wanting to abandon my fleet and have to essentially sign up for a team sport. I've spent plenty of time learning and tweaking my build.
I can't wait to have a new playground. You guys keep yours. Fair enough?
Heh, a case could actually be made to nerf Turrets. Check out the boost they receive from CSV vs. DHCs. They go from ~26% the damage of DHCs to over 70% the damage of DHCs when using CSV...with a 360 arc instead of 45 arc...and 4 shots per cycle instead of 2 shots per cycle for those per pulse additional items. Turrets are OP.
That's great if you're trying to kill pets, but against players it matters not.
Hardcore PvP players, established PvP fleets get to keep the queuing up as they desire.
Lone players get to pug in an actual pug environment.
If you're 2 or 3 players and want to team, use existing chats.
And one can have fun losing. I love Ker'rat for the fact that you never know exactly what you're going to get. I probably go about 50/50 with most of my deaths going to various HOBOs. I had a cool fight with Mini about a week ago where I got instakilled a couple times, I ganked him while he tried to run, and one very well timed subnuc ruined one attack hilariously.
I'm not lazy for not wanting to abandon my fleet and have to essentially sign up for a team sport. I've spent plenty of time learning and tweaking my build.
I can't wait to have a new playground. You guys keep yours. Fair enough?
We shall see. I see the forums exploding about nerfing this and nerfing that after 2-3 man team with OPvP vets get into a match together and ROFLstomp some random pug. All this is a nerf to teams because this game is a single player. Because lets be real here PvP is not fun unless you win or feel like you can win 85% of the matches. The people that dislike PvP for the most part feel that they should be able to hold their own against everyone else no ifs ands or buts about it.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
In case anyone is interested, I took the time to write down how the simple leaderboard balancing algorithm works: Post on Tumblr
Would it be possible to add a modifier to reflect their current ship if it's a case they're flying something that hasn't significantly occurred in their collected history?
Would it be possible to add a modifier to reflect their current ship if it's a case they're flying something that hasn't significantly occurred in their collected history?
The "1 week or 25 matches" limit for data is there to allow players to transition between builds without eternally getting balanced according to ancient setups. If a balancing system were implemented by Cryptic, they could simply collect player data per ship (or per loadout) and then feed that into the algorithm. I don't have viable means to detect when a player changes ships, so I don't think that this can be done in my leaderboard.
The "1 week or 25 matches" limit for data is there to allow players to transition between builds without eternally getting balanced according to ancient setups. If a balancing system were implemented by Cryptic, they could simply collect player data per ship (or per loadout) and then feed that into the algorithm. I don't have viable means to detect when a player changes ships, so I don't think that this can be done in my leaderboard.
Oh, wasn't asking that you do it specifically - a case of bouncing around too many threads while playing and rushing things. Was more a case of your thoughts on that aspect. And yeah, it was more of a folks trying to game the system - but can't see somebody going through that much effort just to game a PUG queue like that. Hopefully somebody at Cryptic takes a look. Hrmm, wouldn't be the normal guys or anything would it...that would actually fall to one of the programmers, eh? Hrmm, maybe somebody will take a look at it...hopefully.
I think accounting for ship changes should ba fairly simple if one has acess to the data. If there is sufficient data for the ship (> x matches for some x; maybe 5?), take that data, otherwise use the average for the character over all ships. If even that leaves too little data, take a default value (say the average over the entire population, or maybe 75% of that or something).
If players then truly create new characters all the time so that they can play a maximum of like 5 matches where they are being balanced with too low a score before the proper balancing kicks in... well, I don't think that this is a serious problem that one needs to account for.
I think accounting for ship changes should ba fairly simple if one has acess to the data. If there is sufficient data for the ship (> x matches for some x; maybe 5?), take that data, otherwise use the average for the character over all ships. If even that leaves too little data, take a default value (say the average over the entire population, or maybe 75% of that or something).
If players then truly create new characters all the time so that they can play a maximum of like 5 matches where they are being balanced with too low a score before the proper balancing kicks in... well, I don't think that this is a serious problem that one needs to account for.
Wasn't really thinking about them rerolling as much as possible respec/ship change (not with them trying to game anything, just a natural possible change).
Say you had a Sci that had been flying a Temporal Sci and generated X numbers. They do a respec and start flying a Recluse, because they wanted to do something new. Somewhere down the road, they decide to respec again and hop in a DSD. Somewhere further down the road, they decide to hop in a Cruiser. All their data might show them doing X, when they're no longer doing X. So they'd be placed differently.
And no, it wouldn't likely be even a minor concern...but it would play into the new guy without any rating and how they'd be placed, eh? Something to be figured into the ship change guy...that new player default number for a potential build modifying any existing history they had.
The queues need to allow cross faction teaming in the teamed queues so we can still team with our fleet if we are on another faction character.
Yep, this needs to keep being brought up...Mini's thread got merged with this one, but it should be brought up here and the notes thread...over and over, not to the point of spamming - but to the point that they get it.
Yep, this needs to keep being brought up...Mini's thread got merged with this one, but it should be brought up here and the notes thread...over and over, not to the point of spamming - but to the point that they get it.
I asked about the KDF/Fed teaming issue in one of the first replies to the tribble patch notes thread. Hopefully they saw it.
The only thing that would make me never go back to PvP again and never touch it with a 10ft. pole, and they did it.
Nice work, Cryptic, I can always count on you.
The only thing that would make me never go back to PvP again and never touch it with a 10ft. pole, and they did it.
Nice work, Cryptic, I can always count on you.
realy ?? , if u want RP just do private man , we dont care of what u do in private ! lol
Making it possible for casual players to play without getting rolled my a 5 man rolftstomp premade isn't "dumbing down to the lowest common denominator". Any five man team that joins the queues is a premade. It is a prebuilt team assembled before the match begins. You can call it a "fleetmade" or whatever you'd like, but the concept remains. Many of us want to play matches against five RANDOM people, not five people from the same fleet that have logged hundreds of hours working together. There is no competition when five random people run into five people that have logged as many hours as some of the PvP fleets. I've always considered taking a five man team into the public queues to be equivalent of stacking the deck while playing a card game. We shouldn't be forced to join a PvP fleet just to have fun in PvP. With this new queue it is quite apparent that the devs agree with us; rather than the egotistical PvP fleet players that wish to continue queue stomping.
I can follow what you are saying but I have to ask you why these teams, team up? This style queuing system is never going to work until penalties are installed to being afk, leaving, and not respawning. Fleets and friends team up not to pug stop but to have a good time with friends and not run into the players that log or die once and go afk. Some simple mechanics like a kick from match option and a claim victory button for those matches where people leave.
Kick from match should be for a player not respawning initiated from his team mates. This should kick the player from the match and give him a hour queuing penalty. To make the match fair a random person would be removed from the other team and given rewards for a victory.
Claim victory should allow a team to claim victory when the teams are upside down by people either leavening a match or logging out and leaving a team in the match by themselves. To go along with this is a hour long cooldown for anyone that leaves a match and anyone using (Attack Pattern Talon Jones) logging out. When people log the game should have a logout script run and this should determine the penalty.
The problem never was premades. Premades got together to prevent stuff like this from happening on there team. And as far as pug stomping there is not a group out there that wants to stomp pugs just for the hell of it. I enjoy the matches more if I loose in a close match and winning a land slide. Most premades would agree with that.
A lot of people who like pugstomping in premades seem to be crying about having to face other premades in here. The community has been calling for this for ages, I for one am glad I can casually hop into an arena without getting roflstomped by a premade.
And as far as pug stomping there is not a group out there that wants to stomp pugs just for the hell of it. I enjoy the matches more if I loose in a close match and winning a land slide. Most premades would agree with that.
Absolute rubbish. All these arguments are invalidated by the fact there is still going to be a queue you can take your premade into. The only difference is with said queue is that you will end up fighting other premades. If this isn't a problem, why is there all the complaining about a pug only queue?
Oh thats it, most premades are afraid to lose, so they don't want to fight other premades.
1) why remove the old queues Fed vs Kdf? can't we have them and the new "general queues"?
2) why still 5 vs 5? can we have a bigger match (ex 10 vs 10)?
However I also think devs should promote someway pvp (dayly missions are not enough): some better reward for winner or best 3 match's player... reward can be, marks, items, little buffs, help for base/holdings building or a sort of "personal provvision"/discount for buying fleet items (ex shields, console, weapons, assets...), one or more permanent rankings (one based on kills, one on won matchs, one on damage dealed... separated rankings for premades and pugs..)
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Comments
Well, not really saying that all *mades are the same nor that all PUGs are the same. More a case that the *mades often have the advantage, regardless of anything else going on - of having played together. Even OPvP PUGmades tend to be folks that have played together...cause well, it tends to be the same folks talking and X'ing up. Beyond that, both *mades and PUGs could be all over the place.
You could have PUGs that work really well together. You could have PUGs that they don't even realize there are other folks there cause they're so set in their single-player mindset. You could have *mades that are finely tuned comps and you could have *mades that are just guys that know each other and are on at the same time.
It was mainly about not understanding why folks are so dismissive of experience. You give the example of a few matches a week only giving a slight edge over the PUG. For that first week. What about after the second week? What about after the fourth month? It adds up.
Very few folks are born Rock Stars of PvP. It's going to come with experience, it's going to come from the folks they fly with, it's going to come with so many things.
Which is just a side peeve...
...and another side peeve is I guess I've got to redefine myself in STO. I consider myself casual....consider myself average on a good day. But what Cryptic's done since the F2P conversion has lowered the bar so much...redefined the casual player in the game. I hate calling those folks casual players - cause by my definition, they're nowhere near casual MMO players - they wouldn't even qualify as casual Facebook gamers...lol. They're the folks that one day found Minesweeper on their computers and played it a couple of times...meh.
So I get distracted with the mention of casual PvPer. Myself and folks I know that are like me...that's not what we are. Oh, no doubt - the folks being described are overly abundant in the game...they're just given a far more insulting label.
That's FFA, there is team PvP too.
+10,000. This needs to be addressed please!
I get just as much joy having friends on the opposing team as I do with them on my team. But that might just be me.
Some folks enjoy playing both against and with friends. Some prefer just playing with friends against others. Some that prefer both, would still like a reasonable chance of playing with...
Turrets too OP. Please nerf.
Never thought I'd see the day where people complain about the weakest weapon in the game as being cheese, but I guess it's true what they say, people can complain about anything.
@DevolvedOne
You are a traitor and a disgrace to your uniform. Take those pips off before I rip them off, you traitorous Klingon sympathizer!
@DevolvedOne
Heh, a case could actually be made to nerf Turrets. Check out the boost they receive from CSV vs. DHCs. They go from ~26% the damage of DHCs to over 70% the damage of DHCs when using CSV...with a 360 arc instead of 45 arc...and 4 shots per cycle instead of 2 shots per cycle for those per pulse additional items. Turrets are OP.
Exactly.
Hardcore PvP players, established PvP fleets get to keep the queuing up as they desire.
Lone players get to pug in an actual pug environment.
If you're 2 or 3 players and want to team, use existing chats.
And one can have fun losing. I love Ker'rat for the fact that you never know exactly what you're going to get. I probably go about 50/50 with most of my deaths going to various HOBOs. I had a cool fight with Mini about a week ago where I got instakilled a couple times, I ganked him while he tried to run, and one very well timed subnuc ruined an attack hilariously.
I'm not lazy for not wanting to abandon my fleet and have to essentially sign up for a team sport. I've spent plenty of time learning and tweaking my build.
I can't wait to have a new playground. You guys keep yours. Fair enough?
That's great if you're trying to kill pets, but against players it matters not.
@DevolvedOne
We shall see. I see the forums exploding about nerfing this and nerfing that after 2-3 man team with OPvP vets get into a match together and ROFLstomp some random pug. All this is a nerf to teams because this game is a single player. Because lets be real here PvP is not fun unless you win or feel like you can win 85% of the matches. The people that dislike PvP for the most part feel that they should be able to hold their own against everyone else no ifs ands or buts about it.
Heh, ever seen somebody flying an AtB CSV build with 7-8x Phased Polaron turrets?
-LindseyLohan - Under appreciated Rom Bug
-EmiliaClarke - Under construction engi recluse
Would it be possible to add a modifier to reflect their current ship if it's a case they're flying something that hasn't significantly occurred in their collected history?
Oh, wasn't asking that you do it specifically - a case of bouncing around too many threads while playing and rushing things. Was more a case of your thoughts on that aspect. And yeah, it was more of a folks trying to game the system - but can't see somebody going through that much effort just to game a PUG queue like that. Hopefully somebody at Cryptic takes a look. Hrmm, wouldn't be the normal guys or anything would it...that would actually fall to one of the programmers, eh? Hrmm, maybe somebody will take a look at it...hopefully.
If players then truly create new characters all the time so that they can play a maximum of like 5 matches where they are being balanced with too low a score before the proper balancing kicks in... well, I don't think that this is a serious problem that one needs to account for.
Wasn't really thinking about them rerolling as much as possible respec/ship change (not with them trying to game anything, just a natural possible change).
Say you had a Sci that had been flying a Temporal Sci and generated X numbers. They do a respec and start flying a Recluse, because they wanted to do something new. Somewhere down the road, they decide to respec again and hop in a DSD. Somewhere further down the road, they decide to hop in a Cruiser. All their data might show them doing X, when they're no longer doing X. So they'd be placed differently.
And no, it wouldn't likely be even a minor concern...but it would play into the new guy without any rating and how they'd be placed, eh? Something to be figured into the ship change guy...that new player default number for a potential build modifying any existing history they had.
Yep, this needs to keep being brought up...Mini's thread got merged with this one, but it should be brought up here and the notes thread...over and over, not to the point of spamming - but to the point that they get it.
Nice work, Cryptic, I can always count on you.
realy ?? , if u want RP just do private man , we dont care of what u do in private ! lol
JOIN us in Star Citizen https://robertsspaceindustries.com/orgs/INQ <
lolwut?? :P
/10chars.
I can follow what you are saying but I have to ask you why these teams, team up? This style queuing system is never going to work until penalties are installed to being afk, leaving, and not respawning. Fleets and friends team up not to pug stop but to have a good time with friends and not run into the players that log or die once and go afk. Some simple mechanics like a kick from match option and a claim victory button for those matches where people leave.
Kick from match should be for a player not respawning initiated from his team mates. This should kick the player from the match and give him a hour queuing penalty. To make the match fair a random person would be removed from the other team and given rewards for a victory.
Claim victory should allow a team to claim victory when the teams are upside down by people either leavening a match or logging out and leaving a team in the match by themselves. To go along with this is a hour long cooldown for anyone that leaves a match and anyone using (Attack Pattern Talon Jones) logging out. When people log the game should have a logout script run and this should determine the penalty.
The problem never was premades. Premades got together to prevent stuff like this from happening on there team. And as far as pug stomping there is not a group out there that wants to stomp pugs just for the hell of it. I enjoy the matches more if I loose in a close match and winning a land slide. Most premades would agree with that.
Absolute rubbish. All these arguments are invalidated by the fact there is still going to be a queue you can take your premade into. The only difference is with said queue is that you will end up fighting other premades. If this isn't a problem, why is there all the complaining about a pug only queue?
Oh thats it, most premades are afraid to lose, so they don't want to fight other premades.
1) why remove the old queues Fed vs Kdf? can't we have them and the new "general queues"?
2) why still 5 vs 5? can we have a bigger match (ex 10 vs 10)?
However I also think devs should promote someway pvp (dayly missions are not enough): some better reward for winner or best 3 match's player... reward can be, marks, items, little buffs, help for base/holdings building or a sort of "personal provvision"/discount for buying fleet items (ex shields, console, weapons, assets...), one or more permanent rankings (one based on kills, one on won matchs, one on damage dealed... separated rankings for premades and pugs..)
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves