I missed something... so you can create a team of mixed factions? or just que and then you'll be put in a stf with mix of factions... doesn't that happen already?
I haven't seen an answer (well, seen conflicting answers - but no dev answer) on the team angle. Whether a team can be made from both sides or not...
...the non-team queue though, will just drop in players - so you could have KDF and Feds placed on the same team.
Just not sure on a premade team being able to do that...meh. Anybody seen anything or tried to make a mixed faction team to queue team?
I haven't seen an answer (well, seen conflicting answers - but no dev answer) on the team angle. Whether a team can be made from both sides or not...
...the non-team queue though, will just drop in players - so you could have KDF and Feds placed on the same team.
Just not sure on a premade team being able to do that...meh. Anybody seen anything or tried to make a mixed faction team to queue team?
For PVE stuff right?
There was this ONE time where we were forming a private then all of a sudden the one setting it up accidently invited a fed, he and I were on our KDF toons, and we were able to team up a full 5 team with 2 kdf and 3 fed..
So this is going to be the next scapegoat? Instead of "evil players queueing as a team" it will be "evil players gaming a random queue system"?
As fas as I can tell not a single player from the PVP fleets has voiced any kind of opposition to ideas of better matchmaking to eliminate pugstomps and bring about more balanced matches. But of course the "we don't need machmaking, we just want to get rid of the team players" crowd knows better. They pefer a purely random pug queue because it will allow them to keep blaming fleets for somehow circumventing the randomisation part when things won't go their way in the new random system.
People will always seek a culprit for any situation. Does it actually matter if they blame players exploiting the queue system? They can blame any number of other things aswell. The luck of the draw, teammates performance, other teams performance or your very own performance (which usually is at the very bottom of reason why you might have lost a match).
When i go into the queue with a full team i can guarantee you that i always consciously know what i'm doing. Sure i'm doing it to get a fun match out of it and fun matches are definitely not 15-0 ones, but i always feel i bit guilty doing it, since i know it wasn't fun for me and definitly not for the other side. I just feel far more comfortable with the "random aspect of the current queue, since the pvp community seems very tightly connected and reputation is always a factor i (personally) am not willing to risk.
If players prefer the total anonymous randomization, then let them have it. But, of course, even this queue would be even better with a matchmaking system to prevent too lopsided a match from occurring. I also wouldn't mind a lobby system for the other queue, so that team matches would be more encouraged.
Why aren't you happy about the changes? Don't we all get what we wanted?
I wanted matchmaking for better balanced matches in a unified queue.
And where in your win-win do you see a proper place for 2-player mini teams? Queueing as a team doesn't always mean 5-player tournament-level premades, it's much more often 2-3 players playing a couple of rounds together.
I have to hand it to the Devs. They've really stepped it up the last few months. The new Rep system changes, easy loadout change ability, and now this: Cross faction queues and a PUG only queue. The Klingon warrior in me rejoices.
Yeah, except in the 'single player' queues I'm sure their will STILL be complaints when the random team generator mechanic puts a group of players who know how to coordinate in PvP. Then the ultra casuals will comp.lain the teaming mechanic for that queue is broken, etc; and whine just as much about how unfair it is they still can't have their fun in PvP, etc.
IMO - i just shows that there's NO STO Dev at Cryptic who really knows how to fix their horribly imbalanced and broken PvP system; but they figure this will placate the PvP casuals and Cryptic can continue adding horribly unbalanced lockbox consoles to the system; and not really have to bother with fixing or balancing the mess they've created in the first place.
Premade or not, so few actually play PvP in STO to begin with, that all this does is ensure those who queue single thinking they don't need to even think about builds, etc. because the team queues will pop even less frequently then they do by an order of magnitude; so those players will gpo into the single queues, and get randomly teamed together enough that the casuals will still get annoyed, etc.
I think in the long run, this change will finally kill off what remains of PvP in STO, but time will tell.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I understand that actual matchmaking would be a higher aim. I'd love to see that working ingame much more than what we get now...
...but tbh, I have never ever seen a working matchmaking system in any game I know. Even if it was possible for STO, I doubt the pool of players is big enough for some kind of fair matchmaking while not slowing down the queues for hours.
2-3 player teams will just have to pick up some guys from the commonly known pvp channels.
Alrighty so I've merged all the pvp discussions about the upcoming queue changes into one thread. Lets keep it that way shall we? :P
As for my opinion on them, I'm glad! I hated pvping in this game because honestly I got tired of being obliterated by premades. Sure, I had times where I made my own teams and tried going in but when the queues are basically all pvp vets 9 times outta 10, it gets old and it made me lose interest very fast which I'm sure is the case for a few.
So the no team pvp queue I'll be jumping in quite a bit now. Granted yes, I'll probably get my butt stomped still but at least I'll have a chance
And luckily, since my in game handle is different than my forum handle, no one will just say "Oh look it's Askray that stupid moderator GANK HIM!" :P
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
And luckily, since my in game handle is different than my forum handle, no one will just say "Oh look it's Askray that stupid moderator GANK HIM!" :P
Tsk tsk, Askray, bad idea. Saying something like that is a guarantee that it will happen now.
I don't know who you are in the game, I don't know what you fly. If you are looking for QQ, I can tell you I don't have any whine. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career in PvP. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you decloak now, that will be the end of it. I will not CC you, I will not vape you. But if you don't...I will snoop for you, I will find you, and I will make you respawn.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
...but tbh, I have never ever seen a working matchmaking system in any game I know. Even if it was possible for STO, I doubt the pool of players is big enough for some kind of fair matchmaking while not slowing down the queues for hours.
(At least for players who have at least a medium skill level. I only mention this hypothetical caveat because it hasn't really been tested with truly bad players because those usually don't engage in TD acitivities where this balancing method is being used.)
The algorithm only needs selfhealing, crosshealing, damage and kills as an input, and some remarks from Cryptic (a long time ago) sounded as if they might already be collecting such data for internal or future use. So it's plausible that this could be comparatively easy to implement, at the very least for the pug queue where one doesn't have to resort to smart optimisation algorithms because brute-forcing all possible team combinations is not a computational problem with only ten players.
And for a pug queue one can simply balance the first 10 players (or first 8 or whatever), so this does not add any delay to the queue times.
And luckily, since my in game handle is different than my forum handle, no one will just say "Oh look it's Askray that stupid moderator GANK HIM!" :P
I bet we've all given you a good ganking in our time, I suggest you support the community (see signature).
I often role in a team that hasn't practiced for weeks for a tournament, just a few guys (2 - 3 maybe 4) from my fleet or from OrganizedPvP that decide to join up and hit the queues and take a few pugs along for the ride. We've all been stomped, We've all stomped ourselves....Seeing 4/5 guys from the same fleet and people think "Premade!!" and warp out...simply isn't the case.
I have a feeling this will hurt the current PvP community as it stands, but that's my opinion and only time will tell.... but this could have been implemented far better as is always the case with this game unfortunately....
You seem to be very confident about this. Let's wait and see what's goin to happen. I bet the new pug queues will bring a lot of new players into the pool.
If that happens and pvps importance raises, cryptic might invest some time (and money) in a matchmaking system that's going to make us all happy
I bet we've all given you a good ganking in our time, I suggest you support the community (see signature).
I often role in a team that hasn't practiced for weeks for a tournament, just a few guys (2 - 3 maybe 4) from my fleet or from OrganizedPvP that decide to join up and hit the queues and take a few pugs along for the ride. We've all been stomped, We've all stomped ourselves....Seeing 4/5 guys from the same fleet and people think "Premade!!" and warp out...simply isn't the case.
I have a feeling this will hurt the current PvP community as it stands, but that's my opinion and only time will tell.... but this could have been implemented far better as is always the case with this game unfortunately....
It will hurt the community overall. You will have less premades publically queueing which will mean less people in PvP. Right now when I PuG first 3 minutes tell me if I need to put in effort. In most cases 9 out of 10 I end up with 3 kirks and 1 moron so I usually fight unbuffed because the match is already 4-0 before I finish my alpha buff cycle. I chalk it up as a loss and move on to the next match and the next PuG. A few fleets I have been in they have a PvP contingent but will most likely stick to private intrafleet practicing than going into live queues against unknown targets.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
You seem to be very confident about this. Let's wait and see what's goin to happen. I bet the new pug queues will bring a lot of new players into the pool.
If that happens and pvps importance raises, cryptic might invest some time (and money) in a matchmaking system that's going to make us all happy
It will but they will either get out when they realize teams or no teams they can't hang and they will cry even more about the Evul PvPers.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
I bet we've all given you a good ganking in our time, I suggest you support the community (see signature).
I often role in a team that hasn't practiced for weeks for a tournament, just a few guys (2 - 3 maybe 4) from my fleet or from OrganizedPvP that decide to join up and hit the queues and take a few pugs along for the ride. We've all been stomped, We've all stomped ourselves....Seeing 4/5 guys from the same fleet and people think "Premade!!" and warp out...simply isn't the case.
I have a feeling this will hurt the current PvP community as it stands, but that's my opinion and only time will tell.... but this could have been implemented far better as is always the case with this game unfortunately....
Actually I have supported the pvp community for quite sometime. And yes, I know quite a few of you have smacked me around already :P Honestly don't care if it's a random pvp event those are fun and I deal hehe. Now that aside, the reason why I haven't pvp'd lately is really I've barely had time to even be in STO (yay grinding...) but also the last few times it was a premade group and we got stomped faster than..i dunno because i'm sick but it was pretty fast.
And yah, that does turn people off very quickly. I know about the organizedpvp channel (i'm in there actually if i remember my list of channels hehe), but to new players that want to jump into pvp that don't know about it that presents a problem. If they continually get put up against people that are a premade group they'll stop trying because they realize they have 0 chance. So I see this as a possible, though very slight, revitalization of pvp. But really only time will tell like you said and I could easily be wrong.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
You seem to be very confident about this. Let's wait and see what's goin to happen. I bet the new pug queues will bring a lot of new players into the pool.
If that happens and pvps importance raises, cryptic might invest some time (and money) in a matchmaking system that's going to make us all happy
Waiting to see, while it is what is most likely to happen, could easily be a bad thing though.
Say it doesn't result in the expected changes, eh? Does Cryptic put the resources in at that point in the hopes that they can? Or do they just write PvP off?
It's going to get into what the actual representation of the playerbase turns out to be - not just the folks we see on the forums which is only a small part of a small part of a small part...er...of a small part?
What folks will continue to find any excuse?
What folks will say it just needs the matchmaking?
What folks will be fine as is?
New players will still face issues, even with the *mades gone. Sure, the *mades definitely drive folks away...but the change doesn't reflect experience, possible gearing mismatches, etc, etc, etc.
Joe Random the Casual Vet vs. Bob Random the Extreme Casual...Bob might not come back. To Bob, Joe Random the Casual Vet may very well end up being as bad as Reggie the Rock Star and his Rockin' Band.
No, matchmaking is not going to provide perfectly balanced matches - but it would increase the likelihood of the casual player experiencing some fun, win or lose - that chance of fun. Which is what it's about, no? Some pew pew fun...woot woot - shoot 'em up!
Picture what can happen in the PUG PvE queues at the moment, eh? Bob the Extreme Casual finding himself with guys that have run that instance 9001 times, are geared to the tooth, etc, etc, etc...everything might be dead before Bob's even in range of anything. Is Bob having fun?
It's part of the reasoning that's being applied to the Rep Reboot - trying to narrow down the range of power (in one area) that players would be expected to have. Matchmaking would do something along those lines, it would provide a range of sorts - otherwise, well...you could have 3x Reggie's and 2x Joe's on a team against 5x Bob's...and how is that going to look to the Bob's? How will it be any different in their eyes? They're going to get stomped.
It would require a sufficient influx of Bob's to reduce the chance of non-Bob stacking taking place on one team compared to the other otherwise...and well, with the rampant amount of hate being spewed at PvP and PvPers in multiple threads out there because of changes Cryptic is considering/making...well, do you really expect a significant increase in the number of Bob's without any sort of matchmaking system?
Waiting could simply lead to the Bob's that do show up hitting up the forums to complain about the system and driving off other additional Bob's that might have thought about it...
Actually I have supported the pvp community for quite sometime. And yes, I know quite a few of you have smacked me around already :P Honestly don't care if it's a random pvp event those are fun and I deal hehe. Now that aside, the reason why I haven't pvp'd lately is really I've barely had time to even be in STO (yay grinding...) but also the last few times it was a premade group and we got stomped faster than..i dunno because i'm sick but it was pretty fast.
And yah, that does turn people off very quickly. I know about the organizedpvp channel (i'm in there actually if i remember my list of channels hehe), but to new players that want to jump into pvp that don't know about it that presents a problem. If they continually get put up against people that are a premade group they'll stop trying because they realize they have 0 chance. So I see this as a possible, though very slight, revitalization of pvp. But really only time will tell like you said and I could easily be wrong.
I understand but the majority of the premades are not optimized for matches. I have been in afew fleets where we que with whoever is on in our fleet and for the most part we hardly do anything at all, we may call a target but most times it starts off structured calling targets calling for heals and then realize the opposition is just a joke and we sort of go free for all. In essnence we are a pug just from the same fleet. Most teams in the queues queue expecting another premade and and once it is realized that the other team is a 5 man team full of kirks the match is no longer taken seriously because kills are so easy. Premades get a bad name because the skill level of casual is so far below the PvP fleets everyone assumes they are actually trying to curbstomp them when in reality those premades usually back off the throttle.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
Mini are you saying no cross faction "premade" teams?
They really need to fix that. THey need to make all PvP and PvE queues cross faction
Yeah, this would definitely be something that needs to be addressed...otherwise it really does come off as just trying to kill off non-casual PvP, which imho would just lead to killing off PvP.
Hopefully one of the devs reading this thread will see this or somebody with an "in" with one of the devs will pass this along. Cause it's not just factional *mades, not just fleetmades, but there's also the PUGmade angle - there's going to be folks from fleets that have fleets in both factions...it's shutting down/ignoring part of the community with the changes...meh.
Make sure the "no premades" queue doesnt display the same level of queue status information as the STF queues do. Make sure there is some randomisation as to which teams the queued players end up.
I understand but the majority of the premades are not optimized for matches. I have been in afew fleets where we que with whoever is on in our fleet and for the most part we hardly do anything at all, we may call a target but most times it starts off structured calling targets calling for heals and then realize the opposition is just a joke and we sort of go free for all. In essnence we are a pug just from the same fleet. Most teams in the queues queue expecting another premade and and once it is realized that the other team is a 5 man team full of kirks the match is no longer taken seriously because kills are so easy. Premades get a bad name because the skill level of casual is so far below the PvP fleets everyone assumes they are actually trying to curbstomp them when in reality those premades usually back off the throttle.
But that's kind of the thing, even in backing off the throttle - they have worked together...even if not in a core group, they have worked together.
Take 100 players of equal (dismal) ability/skill/knowledge/etc.
Take 5 of them, put them together. Allow no communication for those 5. Take the other 95 and assemble them into random teams. Allow them communication.
Have the 5-PUG fight those 19 other teams. The 5-PUG will get better as they go along fighting those 19 teams, while each of the 19 teams will be just as bad one after the other.
What growth will one see in the 5-PUG vs. the 95 other players?
Split that 5-PUG up into a 2-PUG and a 3-PUG, filling them in with members from the other 95 players. Have them play through matches once again.
What growth will one see in the 2/3-PUG and 3/2-PUG vs. the 90 other players?
Why are people so dismissive of the effect that playing together has on things? Playing together will increase the skill gap...
And it's not just limited to *mades kicking it back a notch. It's one of the reasons that without a matchmaking system for the PUG queues...this may not really change anything.
C'mon, who hasn't been on the PUG that ended up with the 3x Sci/2x Tac vs. 5x Tac...where they don't have the debuffs, don't have the healing, don't have a chance in Hell. There's all sorts of grouping things that have happened. Who hasn't taken their shields off or pulled their consoles cause they were feeling guilty about how bad the other side was getting stomped? Cause it's no more fun to stomp than it is to be stomped?
Those matches that come down to what, 4 or less kills deciding the match - those nailbiters...man, those games rock...imho. 15 to 5 or less...meh.
That's not to say that a 15-0 match couldn't be fun for the winners. If you've got two premades where the team that lost has been talking smack up and down and all around...yeah, them getting slapped silly...heh...c'mon, that's funny.
But in your average game...where you're looking for a challenge and some fun...don't you want a close game?
In a sense, the change tries to move toward a closer game...but it still leaves the entire system vulnerable to the non-team stomps that take place. Is it just the hope that those don't happen that often? That in the end it will balance itself out?
VD I know what you are saying. You are saying all *mades are the same and all PuGs are more or less the same. In the fleets I used to play with we would role the queues as 4 escorts and a Cruiser some of which were running experimental builds. Being in the same fleet and playing together for a few matches a week only puts that group slightly above a KDF PuG. The only way this works if the Caual PvP players feel their enjoyment goes up at the very least 50% while riding the coat tails of the more established PvPer.
Hey I Used to be Captain Data, well I guess I still am in game but the account link really screwed everything up :rolleyes:
the only result in splitting up the queues pugmade and premade compared to a better ranking system with just 1 queue is that it will probably become more difficult for pugs to ever get any good in a decent amount of time. Accidental pugs that area ctually 5 good players vs 5 pugs that are super sh*t will still result in pugstomps if you're unlucky.
First off without some form of 'match making' this will not work in the long run. However in order for match making to work you need a large enough player pool so perhaps this is merely the first step.
But considering the rewards from PvP are participation ribbon based similar to ME or Storming the Spire minus the optional I can see this change dramatically increasing the player pool.
Additionally it should in general lead to a bit more balanced matches with less massed cheese. Because when you think about PvP balance problems they tend to be mostly confined to 4 or 5x anything is stupid OP and not much fun to fly against.
Provided the rewards are decent I can see this really increasing the PvP community size. As for the complaints of not being on the same team as your friend, I don't really get it. I have more fun blasting my friends in games than playing always co-op. And this is PvP for crying out loud not hold hands with friends but blast friends into space dust.
I have a feeling this will be like when the put the smoking ban on local restaurants in my area. The owners threw fits, the regulars threw fits. Then after it was in place business was booming as those patrons who where the actual silent majority and hated smokey restaurants showed up in droves.
It is hard to gauge the silent majority and what they would prefer. I think this is at least worth a try, better than that silly shuttle idea anyway. But without proper matchmaking being added at a later time and a much more rapid response to bugs and things that are OP the gains of the community will be short lived. That means major balance fixes and patches with a week or two, not things still broken over a year since they were released.
Comments
I haven't seen an answer (well, seen conflicting answers - but no dev answer) on the team angle. Whether a team can be made from both sides or not...
...the non-team queue though, will just drop in players - so you could have KDF and Feds placed on the same team.
Just not sure on a premade team being able to do that...meh. Anybody seen anything or tried to make a mixed faction team to queue team?
For PVE stuff right?
There was this ONE time where we were forming a private then all of a sudden the one setting it up accidently invited a fed, he and I were on our KDF toons, and we were able to team up a full 5 team with 2 kdf and 3 fed..
after that tho I was unable to do that.
People will always seek a culprit for any situation. Does it actually matter if they blame players exploiting the queue system? They can blame any number of other things aswell. The luck of the draw, teammates performance, other teams performance or your very own performance (which usually is at the very bottom of reason why you might have lost a match).
When i go into the queue with a full team i can guarantee you that i always consciously know what i'm doing. Sure i'm doing it to get a fun match out of it and fun matches are definitely not 15-0 ones, but i always feel i bit guilty doing it, since i know it wasn't fun for me and definitly not for the other side. I just feel far more comfortable with the "random aspect of the current queue, since the pvp community seems very tightly connected and reputation is always a factor i (personally) am not willing to risk.
If players prefer the total anonymous randomization, then let them have it. But, of course, even this queue would be even better with a matchmaking system to prevent too lopsided a match from occurring. I also wouldn't mind a lobby system for the other queue, so that team matches would be more encouraged.
And where in your win-win do you see a proper place for 2-player mini teams? Queueing as a team doesn't always mean 5-player tournament-level premades, it's much more often 2-3 players playing a couple of rounds together.
You talkin bout me?
Yeah, except in the 'single player' queues I'm sure their will STILL be complaints when the random team generator mechanic puts a group of players who know how to coordinate in PvP. Then the ultra casuals will comp.lain the teaming mechanic for that queue is broken, etc; and whine just as much about how unfair it is they still can't have their fun in PvP, etc.
IMO - i just shows that there's NO STO Dev at Cryptic who really knows how to fix their horribly imbalanced and broken PvP system; but they figure this will placate the PvP casuals and Cryptic can continue adding horribly unbalanced lockbox consoles to the system; and not really have to bother with fixing or balancing the mess they've created in the first place.
Premade or not, so few actually play PvP in STO to begin with, that all this does is ensure those who queue single thinking they don't need to even think about builds, etc. because the team queues will pop even less frequently then they do by an order of magnitude; so those players will gpo into the single queues, and get randomly teamed together enough that the casuals will still get annoyed, etc.
I think in the long run, this change will finally kill off what remains of PvP in STO, but time will tell.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
...but tbh, I have never ever seen a working matchmaking system in any game I know. Even if it was possible for STO, I doubt the pool of players is big enough for some kind of fair matchmaking while not slowing down the queues for hours.
2-3 player teams will just have to pick up some guys from the commonly known pvp channels.
As for my opinion on them, I'm glad! I hated pvping in this game because honestly I got tired of being obliterated by premades. Sure, I had times where I made my own teams and tried going in but when the queues are basically all pvp vets 9 times outta 10, it gets old and it made me lose interest very fast which I'm sure is the case for a few.
So the no team pvp queue I'll be jumping in quite a bit now. Granted yes, I'll probably get my butt stomped still but at least I'll have a chance
And luckily, since my in game handle is different than my forum handle, no one will just say "Oh look it's Askray that stupid moderator GANK HIM!" :P
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Daaa Bears. *clink*
Or if you prefer:
Daaa Bulls.
...Sorry, old SNL reference. Had to get it out.
EDIT:
Tsk tsk, Askray, bad idea. Saying something like that is a guarantee that it will happen now.
I don't know who you are in the game, I don't know what you fly. If you are looking for QQ, I can tell you I don't have any whine. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career in PvP. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you decloak now, that will be the end of it. I will not CC you, I will not vape you. But if you don't...I will snoop for you, I will find you, and I will make you respawn.
So, what you're saying is...everybody needs to gank everybody - just in case it is you that they're gankin? :P
It works.
(At least for players who have at least a medium skill level. I only mention this hypothetical caveat because it hasn't really been tested with truly bad players because those usually don't engage in TD acitivities where this balancing method is being used.)
The algorithm only needs selfhealing, crosshealing, damage and kills as an input, and some remarks from Cryptic (a long time ago) sounded as if they might already be collecting such data for internal or future use. So it's plausible that this could be comparatively easy to implement, at the very least for the pug queue where one doesn't have to resort to smart optimisation algorithms because brute-forcing all possible team combinations is not a computational problem with only ten players.
And for a pug queue one can simply balance the first 10 players (or first 8 or whatever), so this does not add any delay to the queue times.
I bet we've all given you a good ganking in our time, I suggest you support the community (see signature).
I often role in a team that hasn't practiced for weeks for a tournament, just a few guys (2 - 3 maybe 4) from my fleet or from OrganizedPvP that decide to join up and hit the queues and take a few pugs along for the ride. We've all been stomped, We've all stomped ourselves....Seeing 4/5 guys from the same fleet and people think "Premade!!" and warp out...simply isn't the case.
I have a feeling this will hurt the current PvP community as it stands, but that's my opinion and only time will tell.... but this could have been implemented far better as is always the case with this game unfortunately....
Lag Industries Executive - Fleet Project Management
PvP Boot Camp Coach
STO - Will PvP For Food - Official OPVP Channel <-Click Me
/channel_join OrganizedPvP
You seem to be very confident about this. Let's wait and see what's goin to happen. I bet the new pug queues will bring a lot of new players into the pool.
If that happens and pvps importance raises, cryptic might invest some time (and money) in a matchmaking system that's going to make us all happy
It will hurt the community overall. You will have less premades publically queueing which will mean less people in PvP. Right now when I PuG first 3 minutes tell me if I need to put in effort. In most cases 9 out of 10 I end up with 3 kirks and 1 moron so I usually fight unbuffed because the match is already 4-0 before I finish my alpha buff cycle. I chalk it up as a loss and move on to the next match and the next PuG. A few fleets I have been in they have a PvP contingent but will most likely stick to private intrafleet practicing than going into live queues against unknown targets.
It will but they will either get out when they realize teams or no teams they can't hang and they will cry even more about the Evul PvPers.
CANT TEAM WITH KDF AND FED FOR PREMADE Q (on tribbles update)
please fix this
They really need to fix that. THey need to make all PvP and PvE queues cross faction
And yah, that does turn people off very quickly. I know about the organizedpvp channel (i'm in there actually if i remember my list of channels hehe), but to new players that want to jump into pvp that don't know about it that presents a problem. If they continually get put up against people that are a premade group they'll stop trying because they realize they have 0 chance. So I see this as a possible, though very slight, revitalization of pvp. But really only time will tell like you said and I could easily be wrong.
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Waiting to see, while it is what is most likely to happen, could easily be a bad thing though.
Say it doesn't result in the expected changes, eh? Does Cryptic put the resources in at that point in the hopes that they can? Or do they just write PvP off?
It's going to get into what the actual representation of the playerbase turns out to be - not just the folks we see on the forums which is only a small part of a small part of a small part...er...of a small part?
What folks will continue to find any excuse?
What folks will say it just needs the matchmaking?
What folks will be fine as is?
New players will still face issues, even with the *mades gone. Sure, the *mades definitely drive folks away...but the change doesn't reflect experience, possible gearing mismatches, etc, etc, etc.
Joe Random the Casual Vet vs. Bob Random the Extreme Casual...Bob might not come back. To Bob, Joe Random the Casual Vet may very well end up being as bad as Reggie the Rock Star and his Rockin' Band.
No, matchmaking is not going to provide perfectly balanced matches - but it would increase the likelihood of the casual player experiencing some fun, win or lose - that chance of fun. Which is what it's about, no? Some pew pew fun...woot woot - shoot 'em up!
Picture what can happen in the PUG PvE queues at the moment, eh? Bob the Extreme Casual finding himself with guys that have run that instance 9001 times, are geared to the tooth, etc, etc, etc...everything might be dead before Bob's even in range of anything. Is Bob having fun?
It's part of the reasoning that's being applied to the Rep Reboot - trying to narrow down the range of power (in one area) that players would be expected to have. Matchmaking would do something along those lines, it would provide a range of sorts - otherwise, well...you could have 3x Reggie's and 2x Joe's on a team against 5x Bob's...and how is that going to look to the Bob's? How will it be any different in their eyes? They're going to get stomped.
It would require a sufficient influx of Bob's to reduce the chance of non-Bob stacking taking place on one team compared to the other otherwise...and well, with the rampant amount of hate being spewed at PvP and PvPers in multiple threads out there because of changes Cryptic is considering/making...well, do you really expect a significant increase in the number of Bob's without any sort of matchmaking system?
Waiting could simply lead to the Bob's that do show up hitting up the forums to complain about the system and driving off other additional Bob's that might have thought about it...
I understand but the majority of the premades are not optimized for matches. I have been in afew fleets where we que with whoever is on in our fleet and for the most part we hardly do anything at all, we may call a target but most times it starts off structured calling targets calling for heals and then realize the opposition is just a joke and we sort of go free for all. In essnence we are a pug just from the same fleet. Most teams in the queues queue expecting another premade and and once it is realized that the other team is a 5 man team full of kirks the match is no longer taken seriously because kills are so easy. Premades get a bad name because the skill level of casual is so far below the PvP fleets everyone assumes they are actually trying to curbstomp them when in reality those premades usually back off the throttle.
Pugging is now back!
Yeah, this would definitely be something that needs to be addressed...otherwise it really does come off as just trying to kill off non-casual PvP, which imho would just lead to killing off PvP.
Hopefully one of the devs reading this thread will see this or somebody with an "in" with one of the devs will pass this along. Cause it's not just factional *mades, not just fleetmades, but there's also the PUGmade angle - there's going to be folks from fleets that have fleets in both factions...it's shutting down/ignoring part of the community with the changes...meh.
But that's kind of the thing, even in backing off the throttle - they have worked together...even if not in a core group, they have worked together.
Take 100 players of equal (dismal) ability/skill/knowledge/etc.
Take 5 of them, put them together. Allow no communication for those 5. Take the other 95 and assemble them into random teams. Allow them communication.
Have the 5-PUG fight those 19 other teams. The 5-PUG will get better as they go along fighting those 19 teams, while each of the 19 teams will be just as bad one after the other.
What growth will one see in the 5-PUG vs. the 95 other players?
Split that 5-PUG up into a 2-PUG and a 3-PUG, filling them in with members from the other 95 players. Have them play through matches once again.
What growth will one see in the 2/3-PUG and 3/2-PUG vs. the 90 other players?
Why are people so dismissive of the effect that playing together has on things? Playing together will increase the skill gap...
And it's not just limited to *mades kicking it back a notch. It's one of the reasons that without a matchmaking system for the PUG queues...this may not really change anything.
C'mon, who hasn't been on the PUG that ended up with the 3x Sci/2x Tac vs. 5x Tac...where they don't have the debuffs, don't have the healing, don't have a chance in Hell. There's all sorts of grouping things that have happened. Who hasn't taken their shields off or pulled their consoles cause they were feeling guilty about how bad the other side was getting stomped? Cause it's no more fun to stomp than it is to be stomped?
Those matches that come down to what, 4 or less kills deciding the match - those nailbiters...man, those games rock...imho. 15 to 5 or less...meh.
That's not to say that a 15-0 match couldn't be fun for the winners. If you've got two premades where the team that lost has been talking smack up and down and all around...yeah, them getting slapped silly...heh...c'mon, that's funny.
But in your average game...where you're looking for a challenge and some fun...don't you want a close game?
In a sense, the change tries to move toward a closer game...but it still leaves the entire system vulnerable to the non-team stomps that take place. Is it just the hope that those don't happen that often? That in the end it will balance itself out?
It's one thing to risk...
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
...and another to risk...
Sometimes you have fun, sometimes you don't.
...imho.
Some will.
Some won't.
VD I know what you are saying. You are saying all *mades are the same and all PuGs are more or less the same. In the fleets I used to play with we would role the queues as 4 escorts and a Cruiser some of which were running experimental builds. Being in the same fleet and playing together for a few matches a week only puts that group slightly above a KDF PuG. The only way this works if the Caual PvP players feel their enjoyment goes up at the very least 50% while riding the coat tails of the more established PvPer.
easy pie fix with disastrous outcome.
But considering the rewards from PvP are participation ribbon based similar to ME or Storming the Spire minus the optional I can see this change dramatically increasing the player pool.
Additionally it should in general lead to a bit more balanced matches with less massed cheese. Because when you think about PvP balance problems they tend to be mostly confined to 4 or 5x anything is stupid OP and not much fun to fly against.
Provided the rewards are decent I can see this really increasing the PvP community size. As for the complaints of not being on the same team as your friend, I don't really get it. I have more fun blasting my friends in games than playing always co-op. And this is PvP for crying out loud not hold hands with friends but blast friends into space dust.
I have a feeling this will be like when the put the smoking ban on local restaurants in my area. The owners threw fits, the regulars threw fits. Then after it was in place business was booming as those patrons who where the actual silent majority and hated smokey restaurants showed up in droves.
It is hard to gauge the silent majority and what they would prefer. I think this is at least worth a try, better than that silly shuttle idea anyway. But without proper matchmaking being added at a later time and a much more rapid response to bugs and things that are OP the gains of the community will be short lived. That means major balance fixes and patches with a week or two, not things still broken over a year since they were released.