There is a third option for the no team que other then allowing 2 mans for playing with frineds.
Allow people that are teamed to Que up... make the que put them in the same match... however Don't team them per say. If 5 que... put them in the same match with 3 on one side and 2 on the other, better yet add a proper que balancing system that would split them up as the balance math decided was needed for a good match.
Ok so people will be crying 3 mans wth... but mix that with a match maker and the game mode will be tons of fun. Would allow premades to que up and accept getting busted up like in a TD match where the que would balance the sides based on the balancing scores.
People still get to play with friends... they just may be fighting with them or they may be trying to kill them. Either way its fun.
I'm updating the solo queue to allow duo groups as well. This way, you can still queue with one friend. Anything more than that sort of drifts too far towards premade advantage in preparation, teamcomp, and out of game communications - this queue is supposed to be extremely pug friendly - but the game is fundamentally about "doing Star Trek" with friends, so I want to let you queue up with at least one buddy as well.
I don't play STO anymore, but it's great to hear some sensible words coming from a dev. A queue with absolutely no teaming does not make sense in an MMO, and it really took me aback when I heard about it. One with limited teaming certainly does make sense, and is similar to the way MWO and many other games separate their queues.
Here are two things I'd like to see:
-Allow teams of more than two people in the "pug" queue, but code in something like a flat, team wide 15% damage and health reduction for each team mate above two. For example, if five guys queue up in the pug queue they would each have a significant 45% damage and health reduction. This should be more than enough to even things out, and gives groups bigger than two a place to go if they aren't having much luck with the premade queue.
-Increased incentives for the premade queue -- whether something tied in with the fleet system, or increased rewards for winning, or some kind of dynamic in-game tournament system, would be great. The goal should be to encourage more fleets and groups of players to start fielding premades, and appropriately award players who play PvP at a high level. Given the number of higher level PvP fleets that have been driven away from STO, I fear that a premade only queue won't see much use nowadays unless there's some sort of hook.
Yeah, a team of 4 is just going to roll the dice and hope to end up on the same side 2+2. Hopefully there's no exploit of timing and we still get a 50-50 shot. I agree with what some others have said here. You should run the experiment at 100% instead of backsliding before it even starts.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I'm updating the solo queue to allow duo groups as well. This way, you can still queue with one friend. Anything more than that sort of drifts too far towards premade advantage in preparation, teamcomp, and out of game communications - this queue is supposed to be extremely pug friendly - but the game is fundamentally about "doing Star Trek" with friends, so I want to let you queue up with at least one buddy as well.
Personally I would have had made a second "pug" queue in which 2 man teaming would be allowed and kept the pure "pug" one man queue alongside for at least 2 months.
I would have run statistics on all queue's and see what happened in all 3 type's of queue's
and then the truth would have been shown by figures.
( A player can now join 3 queue's in the same time so it would be possible to join all three if he/she wishes so)
I think in this way two seasoned PVP-ers will be able to wipe out easily a random 5 pug team.
The new trend will be 2 man premade's from now on
When a good geared tac char is backed by a good healer char it can do a lot of damage and it is almost invincible for casual players and in some cases even for regular pvp-ers.
I can imagine a couple of interesting teams like :
2 bugs ,2 a2b scimi,1 scimi+1 cloaked vaper,2 unkillable trolling faw a2B cruisers with extend shields ,2 trolling temporal sci with 3pc,etc
( Actually there is already a trend in C&H queues for 2 team vapers so the target will be vaped even if it can survive first strike.This 2 team queue looks like a nice place to be for them from now on.Yesterday one poor casual pvp-ers said in zone chat something like :"hey you guys you vape faster than I can touch the buttons ")
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
These changes to space need to be introduced to ground pvp too. It would certainly make it more pug friendly, bring more people (perhaps) and stop the same old Fleet doing it'S usual pug-stomping, which has brought the q's to a near death.
So it is now official that all that complaining about "premades" was not about premades but really about 2 players that are not totally clueless? And we are still to believe that this would not change to the 1 vet player in a purely pug queue?
Yes, and if some day Cryptic decide to launch a debuff that penalty the vet player, is going to be the fact that the moon is closer to the earth than the sun is.
2 vet players can not do anything if the rest of the team is really bad, and 2 vet players can be easily neutralize by a pug team that have 1 or 2 decent players.
They believe that 2 scimatars can wipe a hole team, and is true, but they can wipe it if they know each other or if they never played together. Scimatars are OP, period. The same goes with Vapers.. if they believe that you need 2 coordinated vapers to kill a pug in a PVP is because they clearly don do PVP.
I said this before, always is going to be a complain if you do not admit that the problem is with in you. Even with a 100% pug mach, if they obliterate us, is because they were using haxo or exploiting.
Lol 2 scimitars is what popped into my mind the moment I found out what Hawk was going to do. 2 vapers. 2 Cheesers. You name it. Not saying it wasn't going to happen, but the randomness of the queues would prevent that to happen all the time. We'll wait and see. Right now though, it feels like we're back to square one haha .
This is a valid point in in a pug only you can still run into that anyways. You can even run into a team of five Scimitars. It makes no since to complain about something you can run into in a pug only match. You could run into a team running five TIF. Let's face it not everyone is going to be happy.
I think people are missing the bigger issue with tandems...
Jerry: Hey, Tom. Uh, hey there Mickey.
Tom: Oh, hi Jerry.
Mickey: What's up Jerry?
Jerry: So, Tom - ready to hit up the queues tonight?
Tom: Oh, uh - I'm queuing with Mickey tonight.
Jerry: What?
Tom: Yeah.
Jerry: What do you mean?
Tom: Do we have to do this now?
Mickey: Do you guys need a moment?
Tom: No, it's fine.
Jerry: No, it is definitely not fine.
Mickey: I'll uh - be over there. Let me know when you're ready Tom, k?
Jerry: What the Hell is going on?
Tom: Look, I'm running the queues with Mickey tonight.
Jerry: What about us?
Tom: I never said we were exclusive.
Jerry: What?
....
I think the PUG-only ques should stay that way, PUG-only, excluding any grouping. 2-mans (friends playing together) have the option of TEAM ques, organized private matches, and Kerrat for their fix.
The intended "pvp fix" was to promote a much needed PvP population growth.
It appears some are being too short sighted to see that this is not a permanent fix, to a dynamic situation. We (the community) asked for change and in this case I think that the change is good, because they are looking at changing it using valid numbers.
It almost seems like people are now asking for WOW type arena segregation without the valid numbers to do so. I personally do not endorse adding another rep grind through PvP. The PUG only que should bring back some solo players who are good to excellent solo ship pvp captains, who avoid pre-mades like the plague for obvious reasons, and players who were afraid to PvP for fear of being rolled constantly in 5 minutes, with no chance to learn tactics and situations at all.
Great PvPers will have no problem with the new PUG que's and their ships/skills will continue to dominate as mentioned previously.
Good PvPers will not be as good without their normal team help, and struggle a bit until they find their solo groove.
Poor-Good PvPers will re-educate in PvP faster and become better faster.
If we want 2-man ques, that should be a que option to the TEAM ques, while also allowing solo players in the TEAM que as a filler for uneven numbers, or just making TEAM ques even numbers per side (4, 6, 8, 10, etc) per side.
Pre-madeTEAMS should be facing pre-madeTEAMS to provide the most parity/challenge. A gear score matchmaking is not is not needed because, in a separateTEAM que (while a PUG only que exists), we are all consciously aware that ieam que is where you will find the best geared ships/teams/captain skills. Some dedicated pre-made players would be hard pressed to tell you the last time they died in a pre-made team setting at all, because of the PUGs offering easy kills and fast 15-0 matches.
Yes pre-mades will have to add/subtract another and/or develop new tactics possibly, but the TEAM concept (with all its advantages) will reside in the team ques against other prepared teams, and even solo players would be making conscious decisions to join TEAM ques.
I consider it a mass re-education period in PvP. Some of the avid PvPers might not be able to stand on their own as well as they think to prevent dying in matches at least once, and need at least their "wing man", "pocket healer", or whatever we are calling it these days, but keep them in the TEAM que if that is the case.
These changes to space need to be introduced to ground pvp too. It would certainly make it more pug friendly, bring more people (perhaps) and stop the same old Fleet doing it'S usual pug-stomping, which has brought the q's to a near death.
If the space queue changes are successful, we'll make similar adjustments to ground Arena as well.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
This is not bad change but i still not get it why you dont implement matchmaking system.If player in his free time can make some kind of that i dont see why is so hard for cryptic to do that.But i guess even this is step in right direction.
This is not bad change but i still not get it why you dont implement matchmaking system.If player in his free time can make some kind of that i dont see why is so hard for cryptic to do that.But i guess even this is step in right direction.
I matchmaking system would be pointless at this point due to how few players actually PvP at the moment. This is especially true for Ground PvP.
I matchmaking system would be pointless at this point due to how few players actually PvP at the moment. This is especially true for Ground PvP.
That isn't true... all you need to make a matching system work is the same number it requires to start a match.
Throw onto that the fact that a proper data collection / matching system works for pve as well and solves a lot of there issues there and it seems dumb for them not to be doing it.
I matchmaking system would be pointless at this point due to how few players actually PvP at the moment. This is especially true for Ground PvP.
It can work even with few,and if someone in his free time can make it then company with a lot of resources can make it also.And that would make matches more balanced and attract new players.
yay for pocket healers, coordinated subnuke + alpha strike kills over ts, coordinated spam, etc.
Odd isn't it that in what is supposed to be a very casual pug queue your playing at a distinct disadvantage if you don't come in pre-teamed?
Something tells me this duo queue isn't going to do anything about the complaints about premades.
Just some random thoughts, don't care soo much either way, have quite a bit of fun pugging as it is even with full teams allowed in, and two is a lot more reasonable.
Seems to me you're creating reasons to justify the removal of PvP from this game.
That seems an odd interpretation of what he said. It seems to me they are finally trying to bolster PvP's numbers, but they're going about it in the easiest possible way they can think of (i.e. they're not creating a matchmaking system).
Ninja!!! I just realized no one can read my thoughts so I edited my post a little bit to explain why I wrote that. I hope I'm just being stupid and wrong about that c**p. I really do.
5 v 3/2...
The x/2 of the 3/2, will likely be able to reduce the teams to 4 v 3/2 before the 5 can make it 5 v 2/2. Now you're looking at a 4 v 3/2. Say each side knocks off one more. You're looking at a 3 v 2/2. Advantage again to the x/2, dropping it to a 2 v 2/2 - and the odds are pretty good that the x/2 will also be able to cover the 2/x at this point, so it becomes a 0 v 2/2.
At this point, the 3/x might get a clue about what the x/2 are doing. So they may try to work with them - shoot at their targets, debuff their targets, heaven forbid maybe even share some buffs/heals. The 3/2 is working better as a team than they were.
The 5 on the other hand...are faced with either pouting, throwing their hands in the air, warping out, suicide charging in, or perhaps noticing that the 3/x is the weak link and trying to work together to take out the 3/x while also trying to cover themselves from the x/2.
They're faced with a challenge. They can step up to it. Or they can come to the forums about it.
Keep in mind, this isn't a 5 vs. a premade 5...where there really isn't much of a challenge against any sort of decent *made. I mean, c'mon - outside of denial, we all know that.
It's just a challenge...perhaps a greater challenge than facing a regular 5; but then again - that regular 5 could be a random group of folks that play together...their planets aligned.
It's like Ker'rat. You can have two guys fighting five+ guys with the two guys winning...because of a combination of them perhaps just being better or having the right build for the fight. Hell, you can have one guy messing around with five+ guys. You could have a 5v3 that's going nowhere, which becomes a 6v4 and the 6 get slaughtered because of the 4th guy that joined the 3.
There's all sorts of things that can happen.
Can a tandem totally throw off the appearance of balance that might exist? Sure.
Can one awesome guy on one of the teams with no awesome guy on the other do the same? Er...yeah.
You could be the rock star on a team with 4 nubs or you could be the nub on a team with 4 rock stars. (I hate the term nub, btw - but this post is taking longer to type than I planned.)
All sorts of things are going to be possible...and with that, some dynamic duo - some terrible tandem...well...letting somebody play with a bud - just doesn't seem all that bad by comparison to what else could go wrong.
edit: Lol, I just read that last fragment again...I sound so optimistic...meh.
Everytime you double skills, things get out of control. 2 vapers, 2 scimitars, 2 wells, auxiliary to battery ad infinitum.
The only way to fix that, is if you make 1 vs 1 queues. Do you understand that you can still face 2 vapers, 2 scimitars, 2 wells, 2 auxiliary to battery, ad infinitum and those 2 players are completely unknown to each other, correct? Do you underestend that?
Something tells me this duo queue isn't going to do anything about the complaints about premades.
The guys who whine about premades today will always find something to complain about, no matter what you change. They find fault in everything that inconveniences them in the slightest, not realizing the real fault lies in their attitude. You can see it everywhere in this thread.
The guys who whine about premades today will always find something to complain about, no matter what you change. They find fault in everything that inconveniences them in the slightest, not realizing the real fault lies in their attitude. You can see it everywhere in this thread.
I'm someone that's played PvP, both ground and space, for the most part as a solo player. I've been on some great pug teams. I've been on some bad pug teams. I've been on a team that has been utterly slaughtered by a premade. I've also been on a pug team that's beaten premades. It's not the most fun in the world getting owned by a premade (or any type of team for that matter). However, as someone who understands what it is to pug, it's to be expected that you're going to lose to a well organised and co-ordinated team. As such, win, lose or draw, I say "thanks for the match".
However, what is happening at the moment (and has been happening recently) in the queues has gotten ridiculous - certain premades q'ing up with the sole intention to slaughter pugs. They use every single piece of what might be considered "cheese" or "broken" or "op" stuff to achieve this. All the while, they magically disappear out of the queue when another premade appears, or when another premade asks for a match in OPvP, it's ignored while they continue their pug-stomping ways. It's a win at all cost attitude, especially when there is no challenge.
I've read through the thread a fair bit. I've read through many of the threads over the years and read many of the conversations in OPvP - people were asked, advised, warned to stop this kind of pug-stomping, but it continued. No one is to blame for all these changes but ourselves.
So why aren't you playing the game anymore? And why are your issues more genuine than the issues puggers have?
Not that he needs me to respond for him, but the reason Jorf doesn't play anymore is because there is no challenge left in the game, on top of poor mechanics, and poor attitude amongst the player base. And, well, there are just better games out there.
As for myself, I log in for about an hour or so tops when I do. My reasons are about the same. But I am a die hard Trekkie. So I don't think I will ever really leave.
But man, if I could just tell you how bad this game is right now. Pve is mindless. And due to so many mechanical issues... Pvp has never been in a worse state for good gameplay.
Mmos are not for solo players by design. The devs of this game have had to cater to solo thinking players tho, since that's the majority of the base. I don't vilify them, the have a job to do. It just doesn't make for good pvp.
See, there is your disconnect. Pugs ARE teams. Pick up group. Group is the operative word here. They just don't have the privilege of being part of a premade, and all the goodies that come with that. Pug is normal mode, premade is hard mode. Both have a place in this game whether you or I like it or not. The real issue here is that they shouldn't have to be in each other's backyard. And puggers are rightly so, to complain about uber synergistic premade. Why not? They aren't on the same playing field anyway. Saying otherwise is denying the reality of things.
I believe that no ones denies the fact that a 5 or even 4 players of a good pre made team is probably going to obliterate the pugs in 9 out of 10 games. And no ones denied that this need it a fix. But what you cannot denied also (and you do) is the fact that this is an mmo and if you can not play a PVP with at least 1 friend is also wrong.
Allowing 2 friends having a fun and casual PVP game, does not put in compromise the balance of the pug queue and is a good solution, and like I said before, it could encourage more players to join the queue.
Maybe a dev can correct me with actual data, but I am pretty sure that a good % of the players on STO have one friend/fleet mate/what ever to play with. Imagine that they want to play PVP, they have 2 choices: play separated and have the random chance of been in the same game and same team or go in team an have a high chance of playing against a 5 man full premade. Probably they will forget about PVP and go to the 1000000 run to ISE.
But if they can go together to a PVP and not face a premade, well, they can be encourage to improve, to know each other and maybe, even join a PVP group (OPVP chat or a PVP fleet or what ever), became better players and then go to the team queues, incrising the PVP population. And that is something this game needs.
Allowing 2 friends paly together in a MMO is a win win in every aspect of the game.
See, there is your disconnect. Pugs ARE teams. Pick up group. Group is the operative word here. They just don't have the privilege of being part of a premade, and all the goodies that come with that. Pug is normal mode, premade is hard mode. Both have a place in this game whether you or I like it or not. The real issue here is that they shouldn't have to be in each other's backyard. And puggers are rightly so, to complain about uber synergistic premade. Why not? They aren't on the same playing field anyway. Saying otherwise is denying the reality of things.
Yes and no.
Typical/standard MMO
Pre-defined classes...even with hybrid classes and customization, they're still defined.
Pre-defined roles...even with hybrid classes and customization, they're still defined.
Usually 1-2 dungeons every 10 levels to help folks learn their roles and work as a team.
World questing/content, where it's natural for folks to team up at points to get stuff done.
Star Trek Online
No pre-defined classes.
No pre-defined roles.
No "dungeons" that help folks work as a team.
Instanced content.
STO puts the ME in tEaM. A STO PUG is not going to be your typical/standard MMO PUG...whether one is talking PvP or PvE - both PvP and PvE illustrate this issue endlessly. STO has team content that outside of PvP rarely requires folks to work together. Heck, they've tried adding some...and...players have complained. I mean, c'mon - lol - interruptible interactions...and the playerbase is having a cow about it - they should be able to do everything by themselves, etc, etc, etc. It's what Cryptic has fostered.
edit: Don't get me wrong, mind you - it's one of the reasons I enjoy STO. I don't like people. :P
I got you deokkent, I think we've read enough of each others posts to know where we are both coming from.
Based on my experience most people who queue up pugging for casual pvp take their stf builds in thinkin they are going to do great. I see it everyday. And when they don't... They wonder why.
And that's okay, the game hasn't offered a good challenge pve wise, which leads casual pvprs to believe their builds and piloting have been optimized for a group match.
Honestly, I do not see healing engineers when I stf. Or CC scis.
I guess in all, I was just trying to say... I've never experienced casual pvp in any game. There are always hardcore guys out there that will smash you. They have put in the time for gear and experience. So, I guess that's their due.
What I have not experienced in any other game though, is the amount of sheer numbers that cannot understand this. And won't accept it.
Heck, I get along with everyone. Yet I popped a defiant yesterday in my bug... And the rage pm's began. So I'm a lockbox noob. Okay then.
5x PUG Scimitars completely unaware there is anybody else there...with the 4pc bonus from the Counter-Command weapon set counters out your 2x skilled guys in Scimitars. Meh, I lost the link...should have bookmarked them, bah.
Comments
Allow people that are teamed to Que up... make the que put them in the same match... however Don't team them per say. If 5 que... put them in the same match with 3 on one side and 2 on the other, better yet add a proper que balancing system that would split them up as the balance math decided was needed for a good match.
Ok so people will be crying 3 mans wth... but mix that with a match maker and the game mode will be tons of fun. Would allow premades to que up and accept getting busted up like in a TD match where the que would balance the sides based on the balancing scores.
People still get to play with friends... they just may be fighting with them or they may be trying to kill them. Either way its fun.
Already answered:
I don't play STO anymore, but it's great to hear some sensible words coming from a dev. A queue with absolutely no teaming does not make sense in an MMO, and it really took me aback when I heard about it. One with limited teaming certainly does make sense, and is similar to the way MWO and many other games separate their queues.
Here are two things I'd like to see:
-Allow teams of more than two people in the "pug" queue, but code in something like a flat, team wide 15% damage and health reduction for each team mate above two. For example, if five guys queue up in the pug queue they would each have a significant 45% damage and health reduction. This should be more than enough to even things out, and gives groups bigger than two a place to go if they aren't having much luck with the premade queue.
-Increased incentives for the premade queue -- whether something tied in with the fleet system, or increased rewards for winning, or some kind of dynamic in-game tournament system, would be great. The goal should be to encourage more fleets and groups of players to start fielding premades, and appropriately award players who play PvP at a high level. Given the number of higher level PvP fleets that have been driven away from STO, I fear that a premade only queue won't see much use nowadays unless there's some sort of hook.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Personally I would have had made a second "pug" queue in which 2 man teaming would be allowed and kept the pure "pug" one man queue alongside for at least 2 months.
I would have run statistics on all queue's and see what happened in all 3 type's of queue's
and then the truth would have been shown by figures.
( A player can now join 3 queue's in the same time so it would be possible to join all three if he/she wishes so)
I think in this way two seasoned PVP-ers will be able to wipe out easily a random 5 pug team.
The new trend will be 2 man premade's from now on
When a good geared tac char is backed by a good healer char it can do a lot of damage and it is almost invincible for casual players and in some cases even for regular pvp-ers.
I can imagine a couple of interesting teams like :
2 bugs ,2 a2b scimi,1 scimi+1 cloaked vaper,2 unkillable trolling faw a2B cruisers with extend shields ,2 trolling temporal sci with 3pc,etc
( Actually there is already a trend in C&H queues for 2 team vapers so the target will be vaped even if it can survive first strike.This 2 team queue looks like a nice place to be for them from now on.Yesterday one poor casual pvp-ers said in zone chat something like :"hey you guys you vape faster than I can touch the buttons ")
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Yes, and if some day Cryptic decide to launch a debuff that penalty the vet player, is going to be the fact that the moon is closer to the earth than the sun is.
2 vet players can not do anything if the rest of the team is really bad, and 2 vet players can be easily neutralize by a pug team that have 1 or 2 decent players.
They believe that 2 scimatars can wipe a hole team, and is true, but they can wipe it if they know each other or if they never played together. Scimatars are OP, period. The same goes with Vapers.. if they believe that you need 2 coordinated vapers to kill a pug in a PVP is because they clearly don do PVP.
I said this before, always is going to be a complain if you do not admit that the problem is with in you. Even with a 100% pug mach, if they obliterate us, is because they were using haxo or exploiting.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
So "random" means not having to write any program... smart devs
Minimum of effort, max result.
@rudiefix Feds: Rudiefix / Thron / Opa
@rudiefix KDFs: Lill / Xifeidur / Dehr / Ugly
@rudiefix Roms (KDF alligned): Chicita
This is a valid point in in a pug only you can still run into that anyways. You can even run into a team of five Scimitars. It makes no since to complain about something you can run into in a pug only match. You could run into a team running five TIF. Let's face it not everyone is going to be happy.
Jerry: Hey, Tom. Uh, hey there Mickey.
Tom: Oh, hi Jerry.
Mickey: What's up Jerry?
Jerry: So, Tom - ready to hit up the queues tonight?
Tom: Oh, uh - I'm queuing with Mickey tonight.
Jerry: What?
Tom: Yeah.
Jerry: What do you mean?
Tom: Do we have to do this now?
Mickey: Do you guys need a moment?
Tom: No, it's fine.
Jerry: No, it is definitely not fine.
Mickey: I'll uh - be over there. Let me know when you're ready Tom, k?
Jerry: What the Hell is going on?
Tom: Look, I'm running the queues with Mickey tonight.
Jerry: What about us?
Tom: I never said we were exclusive.
Jerry: What?
....
Ahem, sorry - had to...lol. :P
The intended "pvp fix" was to promote a much needed PvP population growth.
It appears some are being too short sighted to see that this is not a permanent fix, to a dynamic situation. We (the community) asked for change and in this case I think that the change is good, because they are looking at changing it using valid numbers.
It almost seems like people are now asking for WOW type arena segregation without the valid numbers to do so. I personally do not endorse adding another rep grind through PvP. The PUG only que should bring back some solo players who are good to excellent solo ship pvp captains, who avoid pre-mades like the plague for obvious reasons, and players who were afraid to PvP for fear of being rolled constantly in 5 minutes, with no chance to learn tactics and situations at all.
Great PvPers will have no problem with the new PUG que's and their ships/skills will continue to dominate as mentioned previously.
Good PvPers will not be as good without their normal team help, and struggle a bit until they find their solo groove.
Poor-Good PvPers will re-educate in PvP faster and become better faster.
If we want 2-man ques, that should be a que option to the TEAM ques, while also allowing solo players in the TEAM que as a filler for uneven numbers, or just making TEAM ques even numbers per side (4, 6, 8, 10, etc) per side.
Pre-madeTEAMS should be facing pre-madeTEAMS to provide the most parity/challenge. A gear score matchmaking is not is not needed because, in a separateTEAM que (while a PUG only que exists), we are all consciously aware that ieam que is where you will find the best geared ships/teams/captain skills. Some dedicated pre-made players would be hard pressed to tell you the last time they died in a pre-made team setting at all, because of the PUGs offering easy kills and fast 15-0 matches.
Yes pre-mades will have to add/subtract another and/or develop new tactics possibly, but the TEAM concept (with all its advantages) will reside in the team ques against other prepared teams, and even solo players would be making conscious decisions to join TEAM ques.
I consider it a mass re-education period in PvP. Some of the avid PvPers might not be able to stand on their own as well as they think to prevent dying in matches at least once, and need at least their "wing man", "pocket healer", or whatever we are calling it these days, but keep them in the TEAM que if that is the case.
If the space queue changes are successful, we'll make similar adjustments to ground Arena as well.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
I matchmaking system would be pointless at this point due to how few players actually PvP at the moment. This is especially true for Ground PvP.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
That isn't true... all you need to make a matching system work is the same number it requires to start a match.
Throw onto that the fact that a proper data collection / matching system works for pve as well and solves a lot of there issues there and it seems dumb for them not to be doing it.
It can work even with few,and if someone in his free time can make it then company with a lot of resources can make it also.And that would make matches more balanced and attract new players.
lol this is what came to mind for me as well.
yay for pocket healers, coordinated subnuke + alpha strike kills over ts, coordinated spam, etc.
Odd isn't it that in what is supposed to be a very casual pug queue your playing at a distinct disadvantage if you don't come in pre-teamed?
Something tells me this duo queue isn't going to do anything about the complaints about premades.
Just some random thoughts, don't care soo much either way, have quite a bit of fun pugging as it is even with full teams allowed in, and two is a lot more reasonable.
This is GREAT news.
That seems an odd interpretation of what he said. It seems to me they are finally trying to bolster PvP's numbers, but they're going about it in the easiest possible way they can think of (i.e. they're not creating a matchmaking system).
@DevolvedOne
5 v 3/2...
The x/2 of the 3/2, will likely be able to reduce the teams to 4 v 3/2 before the 5 can make it 5 v 2/2. Now you're looking at a 4 v 3/2. Say each side knocks off one more. You're looking at a 3 v 2/2. Advantage again to the x/2, dropping it to a 2 v 2/2 - and the odds are pretty good that the x/2 will also be able to cover the 2/x at this point, so it becomes a 0 v 2/2.
At this point, the 3/x might get a clue about what the x/2 are doing. So they may try to work with them - shoot at their targets, debuff their targets, heaven forbid maybe even share some buffs/heals. The 3/2 is working better as a team than they were.
The 5 on the other hand...are faced with either pouting, throwing their hands in the air, warping out, suicide charging in, or perhaps noticing that the 3/x is the weak link and trying to work together to take out the 3/x while also trying to cover themselves from the x/2.
They're faced with a challenge. They can step up to it. Or they can come to the forums about it.
Keep in mind, this isn't a 5 vs. a premade 5...where there really isn't much of a challenge against any sort of decent *made. I mean, c'mon - outside of denial, we all know that.
It's just a challenge...perhaps a greater challenge than facing a regular 5; but then again - that regular 5 could be a random group of folks that play together...their planets aligned.
It's like Ker'rat. You can have two guys fighting five+ guys with the two guys winning...because of a combination of them perhaps just being better or having the right build for the fight. Hell, you can have one guy messing around with five+ guys. You could have a 5v3 that's going nowhere, which becomes a 6v4 and the 6 get slaughtered because of the 4th guy that joined the 3.
There's all sorts of things that can happen.
Can a tandem totally throw off the appearance of balance that might exist? Sure.
Can one awesome guy on one of the teams with no awesome guy on the other do the same? Er...yeah.
You could be the rock star on a team with 4 nubs or you could be the nub on a team with 4 rock stars. (I hate the term nub, btw - but this post is taking longer to type than I planned.)
All sorts of things are going to be possible...and with that, some dynamic duo - some terrible tandem...well...letting somebody play with a bud - just doesn't seem all that bad by comparison to what else could go wrong.
edit: Lol, I just read that last fragment again...I sound so optimistic...meh.
The only way to fix that, is if you make 1 vs 1 queues. Do you understand that you can still face 2 vapers, 2 scimitars, 2 wells, 2 auxiliary to battery, ad infinitum and those 2 players are completely unknown to each other, correct? Do you underestend that?
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Well, they did also give us the incredibly successful and well thought out small craft arena.
The guys who whine about premades today will always find something to complain about, no matter what you change. They find fault in everything that inconveniences them in the slightest, not realizing the real fault lies in their attitude. You can see it everywhere in this thread.
I'm someone that's played PvP, both ground and space, for the most part as a solo player. I've been on some great pug teams. I've been on some bad pug teams. I've been on a team that has been utterly slaughtered by a premade. I've also been on a pug team that's beaten premades. It's not the most fun in the world getting owned by a premade (or any type of team for that matter). However, as someone who understands what it is to pug, it's to be expected that you're going to lose to a well organised and co-ordinated team. As such, win, lose or draw, I say "thanks for the match".
However, what is happening at the moment (and has been happening recently) in the queues has gotten ridiculous - certain premades q'ing up with the sole intention to slaughter pugs. They use every single piece of what might be considered "cheese" or "broken" or "op" stuff to achieve this. All the while, they magically disappear out of the queue when another premade appears, or when another premade asks for a match in OPvP, it's ignored while they continue their pug-stomping ways. It's a win at all cost attitude, especially when there is no challenge.
I've read through the thread a fair bit. I've read through many of the threads over the years and read many of the conversations in OPvP - people were asked, advised, warned to stop this kind of pug-stomping, but it continued. No one is to blame for all these changes but ourselves.
Not that he needs me to respond for him, but the reason Jorf doesn't play anymore is because there is no challenge left in the game, on top of poor mechanics, and poor attitude amongst the player base. And, well, there are just better games out there.
As for myself, I log in for about an hour or so tops when I do. My reasons are about the same. But I am a die hard Trekkie. So I don't think I will ever really leave.
But man, if I could just tell you how bad this game is right now. Pve is mindless. And due to so many mechanical issues... Pvp has never been in a worse state for good gameplay.
Mmos are not for solo players by design. The devs of this game have had to cater to solo thinking players tho, since that's the majority of the base. I don't vilify them, the have a job to do. It just doesn't make for good pvp.
Have fun kill bad guys
I believe that no ones denies the fact that a 5 or even 4 players of a good pre made team is probably going to obliterate the pugs in 9 out of 10 games. And no ones denied that this need it a fix. But what you cannot denied also (and you do) is the fact that this is an mmo and if you can not play a PVP with at least 1 friend is also wrong.
Allowing 2 friends having a fun and casual PVP game, does not put in compromise the balance of the pug queue and is a good solution, and like I said before, it could encourage more players to join the queue.
Maybe a dev can correct me with actual data, but I am pretty sure that a good % of the players on STO have one friend/fleet mate/what ever to play with. Imagine that they want to play PVP, they have 2 choices: play separated and have the random chance of been in the same game and same team or go in team an have a high chance of playing against a 5 man full premade. Probably they will forget about PVP and go to the 1000000 run to ISE.
But if they can go together to a PVP and not face a premade, well, they can be encourage to improve, to know each other and maybe, even join a PVP group (OPVP chat or a PVP fleet or what ever), became better players and then go to the team queues, incrising the PVP population. And that is something this game needs.
Allowing 2 friends paly together in a MMO is a win win in every aspect of the game.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Yes and no.
Typical/standard MMO
Pre-defined classes...even with hybrid classes and customization, they're still defined.
Pre-defined roles...even with hybrid classes and customization, they're still defined.
Usually 1-2 dungeons every 10 levels to help folks learn their roles and work as a team.
World questing/content, where it's natural for folks to team up at points to get stuff done.
Star Trek Online
No pre-defined classes.
No pre-defined roles.
No "dungeons" that help folks work as a team.
Instanced content.
STO puts the ME in tEaM. A STO PUG is not going to be your typical/standard MMO PUG...whether one is talking PvP or PvE - both PvP and PvE illustrate this issue endlessly. STO has team content that outside of PvP rarely requires folks to work together. Heck, they've tried adding some...and...players have complained. I mean, c'mon - lol - interruptible interactions...and the playerbase is having a cow about it - they should be able to do everything by themselves, etc, etc, etc. It's what Cryptic has fostered.
edit: Don't get me wrong, mind you - it's one of the reasons I enjoy STO. I don't like people. :P
Based on my experience most people who queue up pugging for casual pvp take their stf builds in thinkin they are going to do great. I see it everyday. And when they don't... They wonder why.
And that's okay, the game hasn't offered a good challenge pve wise, which leads casual pvprs to believe their builds and piloting have been optimized for a group match.
Honestly, I do not see healing engineers when I stf. Or CC scis.
I guess in all, I was just trying to say... I've never experienced casual pvp in any game. There are always hardcore guys out there that will smash you. They have put in the time for gear and experience. So, I guess that's their due.
What I have not experienced in any other game though, is the amount of sheer numbers that cannot understand this. And won't accept it.
Heck, I get along with everyone. Yet I popped a defiant yesterday in my bug... And the rage pm's began. So I'm a lockbox noob. Okay then.
Like you said. It's an attitude problem.
Edit: btw, all I do is pug.
5x PUG Scimitars completely unaware there is anybody else there...with the 4pc bonus from the Counter-Command weapon set counters out your 2x skilled guys in Scimitars. Meh, I lost the link...should have bookmarked them, bah.
edit: Found it on reddit... http://i.imgur.com/9jLwZHt.jpg