Preventing gear swapping in a match would be bad too, you can't equip point defense to deal with spam anymore, switch to TDF against teams of all cloakers, or switch to any counter you might need.
I uh...don't see that as a bad thing. I think it's pretty silly that we can swap gear as is. I get it in sector space - it's not real space/it's not real time - or hitting up a station to do it. But uh, doing what basically accounts to some major refits in certain cases - well - hrmm...
Kirk: Scotty, I need you to switch out all our weapons, deflector, engines, shields, everything.
Scotty: Aye, aye captain.
Kirk: How's that coming?
Scotty: Sorry, captain - was watching this funny movie called Star Wars. I was done before you finished asking.
Yeah...I'm sorry, I just don't see those kind of changes being possible as quick as they are as a good thing. Maybe if somebody wanted to prolong the respawn timer while they made changes - and - then got back into the action. But the out of combat quick switcheroo with all the stuff we can...meh.
edit: Still though, I believe clickies should also provide some form of buff along with their clicky as well...since they wouldn't be as easy to switch out.
I can already hear the renewed QQ about some of the games less balanced faction differences.
I am sure people are going to be upset about E disruptors all over again. With reason honestly add one guy on a team with those and it bumps the entire team up by a large margin.
Most likely what that person was doing was combing a few powers together with them. Like activating that new console KDF got during LoR that can bring those shield tankers down when they lose 50% damage resist to shields in combination with the proc on E disruptors, and then dumping theta radiation, tachyon beam, cpb, and a tractor beam with the TB shield drain doff. Then top that off with a delta pattern if they are firing at you with someone dumping an aux battery and sensor scan. Then some target shields 3, energy siphon, and tykens rift(with the doff) and you got a science party from grethor coming out the wazoo.
Can you queue individually or in partial teams for the 'team queue'? If not, would you mind adding that in?
Also, would love mixed-faction queuing for ALL things. PvP or not.
You can queue in partial teams for the team queues, just as you can on Holodeck right now. The only difference between the Tribble team queues and the Holodeck team queues is that the queue server will put players from different factions on the same team on Tribble, which lets us shrink the number of queues by 2/3s and reduce the queue time for anyone waiting in queues.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Others may disagree, but If you're going to be able to queu in as a two man team why even bother with a pug only queu? That 2 man team will still dominate the match.
Others may disagree, but If you're going to be able to queu in as a two man team why even bother with a pug only queu? That 2 man team will still dominate the match.
What? Did I misunderstand earlier in the thread when AH was saying they were going to allow two man teams to queu in together into the pug queus because they wanted to keep that "palying with a friend" vibe? It really feels like they're doing it so the pug only queus will be failures by design by not being actaully pug only.
Others may disagree, but If you're going to be able to queu in as a two man team why even bother with a pug only queu? That 2 man team will still dominate the match.
I don't think that's true, especially given that both sides are likely to have a duo on them.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Others may disagree, but If you're going to be able to queu in as a two man team why even bother with a pug only queu? That 2 man team will still dominate the match.
Is just 2 players out of 5!
2 team players is not even close to be a premade..
You know what? You some day you may have a friend and maybe you want to pvp with him too..
I don't think that's true, especially given that both sides are likely to have a duo on them.
So the pug only queus, will be balanced by having a mini team on both sides?
I'm sorry but that sounds.... honestly, words escape me.
WHy not simply give us a real pug only queu? Is it some sort of reluctance in simply doing something new that makes you guys want to stick in some teaming into the non team queus? I just don't get it.
I'd still like to see pug only. But team of 2 still allows for some chance for the other side, so still an improvement.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
WHy not simply give us a real pug only queu? Is it some sort of reluctance in simply doing something new that makes you guys want to stick in some teaming into the non team queus? I just don't get it.
Because is common sense! This is an MMO and if you cant play PVP with at least 1 friend, just 1..
And with that change, 2 friends (witch I believe is very common on any MMO) can be encourage to play PVP due to the fact that they know they are not going to face a premade.
Now, if you have a friend you can send him a tell and ask him for a team for PVP knowing, that a premade is not going to kick your TRIBBLE. And 2 players can not decide the fate with out depending of the other 8.
Today I play some PVP with my fleet mate, he is still learning the basics and we play against 2 pugs and was really a really balance game. Then we faced 2 times the same fleet premade, with all the cheese they can master (TIF, Elachi, AMS, Rom Vaper.. you call it) then we decide to end the night. With the new queue system, we can keep playing with out disrupting the balance of the game.
If a team of 5 can not fight a team of 2 friend and 3 pugs, chances are that they can not also fight 1 good player and 4 pugs.
Now, if you have a friend you can send him a tell and ask him for a team for PVP knowing, that a premade is not going to kick your TRIBBLE. And 2 players can not decide the fate with out depending of the other 8.
I'm sorry, but you are very wrong. A two man team made up competent PvPers can probably take on 8 other regular players without breaking a sweat. We'll see a new metagame rise up, of the two man team.
So yay, we get something that's actually nothing, much like the small craft arena. After this I doubt they'd ever do a real pug only queu.
But whatever, its PvP, so why would I expect them to do it right?
I'm sorry, but you are very wrong. A two man team made up competent PvPers can probably take on 8 other regular players without breaking a sweat. We'll see a new metagame rise up, of the two man team.
If the 8 other players can not compensate (for good or for bad) the 2 excellent PVP players (witch is going to be only 10% of the friends playing together) then is really likely that they are not even going to be able to face 1 excellent PVP player.
If the 8 other players can not compensate (for good or for bad) the 2 excellent PVP players (witch is going to be only 10% of the friends playing together) then is really likely that they are not even going to be able to face 1 excellent PVP player.
Really depends. One fully maxed DPS Scimmy can be tough to deal with, two are not twice as hard to deal with they are three times as hard to deal with.
A single skilled vaper can be deadly and frustrating to deal with. A skilled vaper duo on teamspeak can be impossible to deal with.
Not even going to bother mentioning the potential spam/cheeze even a duo can carry to make things less enjoyable to fly against.
I just don't like halfway. You cannot please everyone so pick your developer 'vision' and stick with it. If you think a pure PuG only queue will increase PvP participation then make it so. Otherwise why bother. To me this could end up poison piling the entire experiment if some duo's decided to go roll the PuGs in the queues for giggles just like the current one.
Now if their was proper match making that took into account a duo queue and their elo or skill and made sure to compensate for it when setting up the teams it would be much less of a potential problem. But to the best of my knowledge that does not yet exist.
Well what about the fleets or groups of friends that don't have the numbers to field a full five man unit? I typically roll with one partner but sometimes we're lucky enough to get a third. That's been the ceiling on our number for close to a year now. Should we be condemned to unenjoyable match after unenjoyable match against five man after five man with extra cheese because we're barred from queuing in unteamed ques? Because that will certainly alienate allot of smaller fleets/battle groups that don't have the numbers to field a full premade. It's a little silly to get upset at my PVP partner and I for having the same fleet tag and using teamwork just because Pugs seem incapable of organizing.
Well what about the fleets or groups of friends that don't have the numbers to field a full five man unit? I typically roll with one partner but sometimes we're lucky enough to get a third. That's been the ceiling on our number for close to a year now. Should we be condemned to unenjoyable match after unenjoyable match against five man after five man with extra cheese because we're barred from queuing in unteamed ques? Because that will certainly alienate allot of smaller fleets/battle groups that don't have the numbers to field a full premade. It's a little silly to get upset at my PVP partner and I for having the same fleet tag and using teamwork just because Pugs seem incapable of organizing.
So your unlucky that you can't field a five man unit and don't enjoy a match against a team that has about twice the amount of organization you do.
But it is silly for an individual player in a PuG to be upset with you for having about twice the organization than them.
No matter what, someone is not going to get what they want. If allowing duo's will get more people into the queue than not allowing them then this is the right decision. I do not know. I just personally feel they should either not allow premade teaming of any sort, or not bother splitting hairs on how many is too many for premade.
You could always queue up with your friend and have a friendly match on opposing teams if that is what the RNG monster of the queue determined.
You can queue in partial teams for the team queues, just as you can on Holodeck right now. The only difference between the Tribble team queues and the Holodeck team queues is that the queue server will put players from different factions on the same team on Tribble, which lets us shrink the number of queues by 2/3s and reduce the queue time for anyone waiting in queues.
How about queuing by yourself? I know right now on Holodeck you can always queue by yourself, but can you queue by yourself on the team queue on Tribble?
I ask, because I have a feeling that the team queue might end up with a mish-mash of various small teams of 2, 3, 4, and 5, but not able to completely fill a 5v5 because of that. Sure there are plenty combinations that would allow that to pop, but not always. You could have a case of a team of 4, a team of 3, and another team of 3, and not get any pops on that queue.
I don't think it'd hurt the queue to have it allow single players, because anyone queuing into that one would know precisely what it is: The team queue. But having single players be allowed to enter would help fill it out when it just doesn't want to pop because of weird team number mix ups.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
do people seriously need to be reminded that its pvp, someones got to die? my god
2 people coordinating isnt going to do squat if the rest of the team has no intuition, 2 people are not enough to turn every single game on its head. all a team needs is 1 bad player to sink it, no mater what.
I'd like to know who put that idea in your head, cuz that's one evil troll.
Evil troll is not allowing 2 friend to have a casual and fun PVP together and force them to play against a full premade. If in a MMO I can not play with one friend, it have no sense at all.
Lol 2 scimitars is what popped into my mind the moment I found out what Hawk was going to do. 2 vapers. 2 Cheesers. You name it. Not saying it wasn't going to happen, but the randomness of the queues would prevent that to happen all the time. We'll wait and see. Right now though, it feels like we're back to square one haha .
The 2 sciamatars dont need to be in a team to one shot the hole PUG group! They just need to press the dam space bar and obliterate the hole enemy group! The Scimatars is what is wrong here, not 2 friends playing together. Hell, is probably that you can face a 5 team of sciamatars and dont even know each other! That has NOTHING to do with the fact that we should be allow to play with 1 friend!
You can face a hole group of Scimatars, or vapers, or players with chesse that dont know each other and they can obliterate your team in one second.
I think you misunderstood what I wrote there a little bit, it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about in my earlier post. Do I have to remind you how this game has a stacking problem? Just think of 2 decloaking scimitars both maintaining a steady 80k+ dps alpha. Seriously just think about it.
I watched a premade match a couple of days ago where it took an entire premade team to control 2 pve scimitars. I mean, they were really nervous about it. I can't show it to you now because the owner asked me that it stays private. These scimitars were wiping out premade healers. PREMADE!!!! Just sitting there fawfawing.
2 decloaking scimitars has nothing to do with 2 team players that want to have a game together! You can face 5 decloaking scimitars that not even know each other, even in different allied faction and they can obliterate your 5 team pug group in 1 second! They only need to press the dam space bar! What is wrong here are the Scimatars, not 2 friend playing together.
2 Sciamtars dont need to coordinate, dont need to do anything else than decloak and press the space bar. If they do it at the same time, they are going to vape the 5 pug team. If they do it with out coordination, they are still going to vape the 5 pug team! Scimatars are wrong, not 2 players with a little coordindation!.
I play PVP and I have face a lot of pug made team with 2 or 3 scimatars (or even more) and they completely vaped my pug team! What have that to do with 2 friends playing together??
Like I said, the random queue can create a team of 5 scimatrs: one player speck Spanish, another Russian, other mandarin, another Quechua and the other Vulcan, and they still are going to obliterate your team with out even using the team chat to coordinate an alpha! They dont need, and that is the fun thing about scimitars, you only need to press the space bar and cash!
Now, because you think that 2 friends using a fully equipped Scimatar is extremely worst that 2 unknown using a fully equipped Scimatar, we should not play a PVP with friend in a MMO?
Ask for a balance for the Scimatar, no ask for impossibility of 2 friends playing together on a multy player game..
And this also apply for Romulan Vapers.. belive me, a Vaper with proton barrage do not need to coordinate with another one to kill your 5 pug team one by one.
You can face 5 unkow backstepping wells in a random queue. They dont need to coordinate to use the console. Now, if the problem is 2 sci ships then....
I guess you mean the healers.. still, you can have a random queue where your team have 5 recluse and the other team 5 recluse and no one gets kill in 6 hs of game.. I still fail to see your point. And you can have the 2 best healers in the game doing cross heals, but if the other 3 not even distribute shields the game is going to end sooner than later.
Believe me, today I play a mach with one of the best healers and another healer fleet mate and they still loss due to the fact that they were with a guy that not even stayed at the 10km range.
To be honest though, I'm more concerned people will find ways to play the queues. For instance, splitting the pseudo premade team into 2 pairs, queuing up together and finding an exploit to end up on the same team.
Such an exploit is an exploit and should be reported, and has nothing to do with the fact that the system should allow 2 friends playing together in an multy player massive game.
This game (and especially PVP) have seen so many exploits in 4 years that we can make a book about it.. but that has NOTHING to do with forcing 2 friends to play separated or force them to play against a 5 premade team.
His focus hasn't changed, but yours has. Instead of arguing for the sake of having a fun time with friends, which IS a worthwhile point to discuss, you're now telling us that just because the pug queue COULD end up unbalanced, we should just make sure it IS unbalanced by introducing 2 man teams to it.
I don't think that's true, especially given that both sides are likely to have a duo on them.
Speaking of this, will the coding put the two duos on opposite sides or is it going to be completely random where it could end up 2 duos + solo vs. 5 solos. Because that would not be so great.
Comments
I uh...don't see that as a bad thing. I think it's pretty silly that we can swap gear as is. I get it in sector space - it's not real space/it's not real time - or hitting up a station to do it. But uh, doing what basically accounts to some major refits in certain cases - well - hrmm...
Kirk: Scotty, I need you to switch out all our weapons, deflector, engines, shields, everything.
Scotty: Aye, aye captain.
Kirk: How's that coming?
Scotty: Sorry, captain - was watching this funny movie called Star Wars. I was done before you finished asking.
Yeah...I'm sorry, I just don't see those kind of changes being possible as quick as they are as a good thing. Maybe if somebody wanted to prolong the respawn timer while they made changes - and - then got back into the action. But the out of combat quick switcheroo with all the stuff we can...meh.
edit: Still though, I believe clickies should also provide some form of buff along with their clicky as well...since they wouldn't be as easy to switch out.
Most likely what that person was doing was combing a few powers together with them. Like activating that new console KDF got during LoR that can bring those shield tankers down when they lose 50% damage resist to shields in combination with the proc on E disruptors, and then dumping theta radiation, tachyon beam, cpb, and a tractor beam with the TB shield drain doff. Then top that off with a delta pattern if they are firing at you with someone dumping an aux battery and sensor scan. Then some target shields 3, energy siphon, and tykens rift(with the doff) and you got a science party from grethor coming out the wazoo.
You can queue in partial teams for the team queues, just as you can on Holodeck right now. The only difference between the Tribble team queues and the Holodeck team queues is that the queue server will put players from different factions on the same team on Tribble, which lets us shrink the number of queues by 2/3s and reduce the queue time for anyone waiting in queues.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Seriously? .... lol
Vin Naftero@playhard88 - FED Sciencie
K'tan@playhard88 - KDF Tactical
Argento@playhard88 - RRF Tactical (FED)
What? Did I misunderstand earlier in the thread when AH was saying they were going to allow two man teams to queu in together into the pug queus because they wanted to keep that "palying with a friend" vibe? It really feels like they're doing it so the pug only queus will be failures by design by not being actaully pug only.
I don't think that's true, especially given that both sides are likely to have a duo on them.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Is just 2 players out of 5!
2 team players is not even close to be a premade..
You know what? You some day you may have a friend and maybe you want to pvp with him too..
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
So the pug only queus, will be balanced by having a mini team on both sides?
I'm sorry but that sounds.... honestly, words escape me.
WHy not simply give us a real pug only queu? Is it some sort of reluctance in simply doing something new that makes you guys want to stick in some teaming into the non team queus? I just don't get it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Because is common sense! This is an MMO and if you cant play PVP with at least 1 friend, just 1..
And with that change, 2 friends (witch I believe is very common on any MMO) can be encourage to play PVP due to the fact that they know they are not going to face a premade.
Now, if you have a friend you can send him a tell and ask him for a team for PVP knowing, that a premade is not going to kick your TRIBBLE. And 2 players can not decide the fate with out depending of the other 8.
Today I play some PVP with my fleet mate, he is still learning the basics and we play against 2 pugs and was really a really balance game. Then we faced 2 times the same fleet premade, with all the cheese they can master (TIF, Elachi, AMS, Rom Vaper.. you call it) then we decide to end the night. With the new queue system, we can keep playing with out disrupting the balance of the game.
If a team of 5 can not fight a team of 2 friend and 3 pugs, chances are that they can not also fight 1 good player and 4 pugs.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
I'm sorry, but you are very wrong. A two man team made up competent PvPers can probably take on 8 other regular players without breaking a sweat. We'll see a new metagame rise up, of the two man team.
So yay, we get something that's actually nothing, much like the small craft arena. After this I doubt they'd ever do a real pug only queu.
But whatever, its PvP, so why would I expect them to do it right?
If the 8 other players can not compensate (for good or for bad) the 2 excellent PVP players (witch is going to be only 10% of the friends playing together) then is really likely that they are not even going to be able to face 1 excellent PVP player.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Really depends. One fully maxed DPS Scimmy can be tough to deal with, two are not twice as hard to deal with they are three times as hard to deal with.
A single skilled vaper can be deadly and frustrating to deal with. A skilled vaper duo on teamspeak can be impossible to deal with.
Not even going to bother mentioning the potential spam/cheeze even a duo can carry to make things less enjoyable to fly against.
I just don't like halfway. You cannot please everyone so pick your developer 'vision' and stick with it. If you think a pure PuG only queue will increase PvP participation then make it so. Otherwise why bother. To me this could end up poison piling the entire experiment if some duo's decided to go roll the PuGs in the queues for giggles just like the current one.
Now if their was proper match making that took into account a duo queue and their elo or skill and made sure to compensate for it when setting up the teams it would be much less of a potential problem. But to the best of my knowledge that does not yet exist.
So your unlucky that you can't field a five man unit and don't enjoy a match against a team that has about twice the amount of organization you do.
But it is silly for an individual player in a PuG to be upset with you for having about twice the organization than them.
No matter what, someone is not going to get what they want. If allowing duo's will get more people into the queue than not allowing them then this is the right decision. I do not know. I just personally feel they should either not allow premade teaming of any sort, or not bother splitting hairs on how many is too many for premade.
You could always queue up with your friend and have a friendly match on opposing teams if that is what the RNG monster of the queue determined.
How about queuing by yourself? I know right now on Holodeck you can always queue by yourself, but can you queue by yourself on the team queue on Tribble?
I ask, because I have a feeling that the team queue might end up with a mish-mash of various small teams of 2, 3, 4, and 5, but not able to completely fill a 5v5 because of that. Sure there are plenty combinations that would allow that to pop, but not always. You could have a case of a team of 4, a team of 3, and another team of 3, and not get any pops on that queue.
I don't think it'd hurt the queue to have it allow single players, because anyone queuing into that one would know precisely what it is: The team queue. But having single players be allowed to enter would help fill it out when it just doesn't want to pop because of weird team number mix ups.
2 people coordinating isnt going to do squat if the rest of the team has no intuition, 2 people are not enough to turn every single game on its head. all a team needs is 1 bad player to sink it, no mater what.
Evil troll is not allowing 2 friend to have a casual and fun PVP together and force them to play against a full premade. If in a MMO I can not play with one friend, it have no sense at all.
The 2 sciamatars dont need to be in a team to one shot the hole PUG group! They just need to press the dam space bar and obliterate the hole enemy group! The Scimatars is what is wrong here, not 2 friends playing together. Hell, is probably that you can face a 5 team of sciamatars and dont even know each other! That has NOTHING to do with the fact that we should be allow to play with 1 friend!
You can face a hole group of Scimatars, or vapers, or players with chesse that dont know each other and they can obliterate your team in one second.
And I am going to Quote yourself now:
If the 5 pug team, that should cover each other backs, can not face 2 players semi organized, then they deserve to loss. Even useing your own logic..
Now, to finsh, I am going to add this:
Sorry for bad english.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
2 decloaking scimitars has nothing to do with 2 team players that want to have a game together! You can face 5 decloaking scimitars that not even know each other, even in different allied faction and they can obliterate your 5 team pug group in 1 second! They only need to press the dam space bar! What is wrong here are the Scimatars, not 2 friend playing together.
2 Sciamtars dont need to coordinate, dont need to do anything else than decloak and press the space bar. If they do it at the same time, they are going to vape the 5 pug team. If they do it with out coordination, they are still going to vape the 5 pug team! Scimatars are wrong, not 2 players with a little coordindation!.
I play PVP and I have face a lot of pug made team with 2 or 3 scimatars (or even more) and they completely vaped my pug team! What have that to do with 2 friends playing together??
Like I said, the random queue can create a team of 5 scimatrs: one player speck Spanish, another Russian, other mandarin, another Quechua and the other Vulcan, and they still are going to obliterate your team with out even using the team chat to coordinate an alpha! They dont need, and that is the fun thing about scimitars, you only need to press the space bar and cash!
Now, because you think that 2 friends using a fully equipped Scimatar is extremely worst that 2 unknown using a fully equipped Scimatar, we should not play a PVP with friend in a MMO?
Ask for a balance for the Scimatar, no ask for impossibility of 2 friends playing together on a multy player game..
And this also apply for Romulan Vapers.. belive me, a Vaper with proton barrage do not need to coordinate with another one to kill your 5 pug team one by one.
Sorry for bad english.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Good, now you change your focus..
You can face 5 unkow backstepping wells in a random queue. They dont need to coordinate to use the console. Now, if the problem is 2 sci ships then....
Same as the Scimatar, you really belive that you need 2 coordinated vapers to kill a player in a pug made team? Lol.. I do it alone in my noob Mogai.
Now the problem is 2 escorts? We went from scimatars to conventional escorts..
I guess you mean the healers.. still, you can have a random queue where your team have 5 recluse and the other team 5 recluse and no one gets kill in 6 hs of game.. I still fail to see your point. And you can have the 2 best healers in the game doing cross heals, but if the other 3 not even distribute shields the game is going to end sooner than later.
Believe me, today I play a mach with one of the best healers and another healer fleet mate and they still loss due to the fact that they were with a guy that not even stayed at the 10km range.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Such an exploit is an exploit and should be reported, and has nothing to do with the fact that the system should allow 2 friends playing together in an multy player massive game.
This game (and especially PVP) have seen so many exploits in 4 years that we can make a book about it.. but that has NOTHING to do with forcing 2 friends to play separated or force them to play against a 5 premade team.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
His focus hasn't changed, but yours has. Instead of arguing for the sake of having a fun time with friends, which IS a worthwhile point to discuss, you're now telling us that just because the pug queue COULD end up unbalanced, we should just make sure it IS unbalanced by introducing 2 man teams to it.
Speaking of this, will the coding put the two duos on opposite sides or is it going to be completely random where it could end up 2 duos + solo vs. 5 solos. Because that would not be so great.
@DevolvedOne