I think the problem is that many have already put in the effort for a reward/s, and will now loose it. I understand not everyone currently has finished their Tier reps, but isnt it kinda mean and unfair to have people jump through all the hoops to get the rewards they offered, then take it back?
It gives you a different guaranteed reward, however:
1) For every project you start succesfully, you will get gear from the rep store. That's a new, guaranteed reward you get even if you don't complete the whole thing.
Vendor trash random drops I have to go sell at some bartender, not even worth the EC put in the project.
2) You unlock a choice for your reputation ability slots - and you can switch between the different ones for free. That means if you picked poorly or want to test a different reputation ability, it doesn't cost you to change it anything
I have 32 "choices" for my reputation ability slots already and under this new system I can't even use most of those. "Choices" are only worth going for if they're better than the ones we already have.
3) You don't need to pay to unlock rep stores anymore. That's no help to reputations where you alraedy did all that, but it is great for all the ones you didn't, including the new one that is coming around.
So, people have run the numbers, have compared the damage they do and the speed at which missions complete... and they've found that, if anything, the changes mean they do slightly more damage.
Which is fine for them, I guess. But I persist in looking at the issue from the point of view of someone who really can't be bothered running STO with a pocket calculator in one hand.
The power set available at any one time is being reduced. If you don't want to worry about the numbers, this is a Bad Thing. Getting bigger numbers in compensation - isn't compensation. It's like Cryptic looking at my lunch menu and saying "well, you can't have ice cream and cola, but we're going to give you extra broccoli as compensation!" Whoop de doo.
An extra 0.27% average DPS does not equal 0.27% more fun. If you must have numbers and equations, the one I'm working with goes:-
Reduced Power Set + Extra Bookkeeping + Numbers I Don't Care About = Less Fun.
What would make me happy, or at least get me complaining about something else, is if I got to keep the power set I already have, so I don't need to worry about picking which ones I need for which occasion, and let the numbers fall where they may.
(Still leaves me with no incentive to participate in the next rep grind, mind, but that's not my problem.)
That's not the point. It wouldn't matter if the change made all builds stronger. What it does is it removes the only guaranteed reward for doing rep.
Instead of "of course I'll do the new rep, for those little passive bonuses if nothing else" it becomes "I wonder if there's anything worth bothering about in the new rep."
I agree. Personally, I am not doing the reputation systems anymore. I already cut my STO play time to a few minutes from hours. Additionally, I am not doing any grinding. I stopped the latter with the STO anniversary. I grinded for the Romulan ship and happened to get the Klingon ship which I have not played ever since so each ship have 0 play time.
Cryptic is making it really easy next to invest in paying in Eve Online or Vendetta Online. Way to go Cryptic!
Vendor trash random drops I have to go sell at some bartender, not even worth the EC put in the project.
I have 32 "choices" for my reputation ability slots already and under this new system I can't even use most of those. "Choices" are only worth going for if they're better than the ones we already have.
Who cares, fleet stuff is better anyway.
Wait till there are more reputations. So, you end up with 120 choices and you can only pick 8 out of them.
I have just tested the changes made to the reputations on tribble and in fact i am doing now more damage than I am doing on holodeck. So much to the point that they are reducing the power creep.
I have just tested the changes made to the reputations on tribble and in fact i am doing now more damage than I am doing on holodeck. So much to the point that they are reducing the power creep.
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
That's not the point. It wouldn't matter if the change made all builds stronger. What it does is it removes the only guaranteed reward for doing rep.
Instead of "of course I'll do the new rep, for those little passive bonuses if nothing else" it becomes "I wonder if there's anything worth bothering about in the new rep."
Huh? I did that with the Nukara rep as I saw there was nothing I was interested in. The only reason I ended up completing it was because I got bored and there was the CE event.
Same with the Dyson rep, the only real reason I bothered working my way through it was for the lump sum at the end. Since it only took 10-30 mins to get a project started, I saw no reason not to grind it.
So the change to the rep system would make no difference to me when in comes to grinding it.
As for the undine Rep, the T4 passive is more than worthwhile and the T5 active is frankly OP. So yeah, I'm grinding it.
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
This is basically future proofing the system and preventing power creep from getting out of hand with future updates.
With the new system you'll be able to maximize you're DPS or maximize your shield tanking, but you won't be able to do both.
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
If this game even exists in 2017, the system will certainly have been changed a dozen times over. The whole rep system isn't even two years old yet. :rolleyes:
If the related reputation projects get cheaper, doesn't that also include the dilithium projects?
I advise check the values on Tribble once they are adjusted (if they ar enot already) and then decide whether you spend your BNPs now or wait until Season 9 comes. It oculd very well be that grinding BNPs now and waiting to use them in Season 9 might give you the most bang for your buck.
They did reduce it to 3 BNP for 1000 dil. You can only get 1 per run. That is 3 runs per 1000 dil always.
Currently you get a minimum of one and every 5 run you are guaranteed 1000 dil but you also had a chance of getting 6 or 11 bnp. that is automatically 1000 to 2000 dil in a run. there were days where I had run ise, cse and kase in a row got 11 in each for a total of 33 bnp or 6000 dil. you do not have that chance any more.
Random bonuses are nice. If you adjust the cost for equipment and dilithium then adjust the rewards. don't remove them. 1 every run but with a chance of getting 4 or 7 bnp instead of 6 or 11.
I agree. Personally, I am not doing the reputation systems anymore. I already cut my STO play time to a few minutes from hours. Additionally, I am not doing any grinding. I stopped the latter with the STO anniversary. I grinded for the Romulan ship and happened to get the Klingon ship which I have not played ever since so each ship have 0 play time.
Cryptic is making it really easy next to invest in paying in Eve Online or Vendetta Online. Way to go Cryptic!
Yeah, im done with pvp too. No sense in trying to starting over again every season...by the time you get your ship right again from the last change they change things again. (Pointless struggle!) I think they are laughing at us, its like when hackers tear down your pc, after watching you work hard to setup music and video files, then virus you or erase them.
I may have to quit using James T Cat if I have to start all over again. It was hard enough using a novelty toon with what I did have for him, now it will be impossible. :mad: All thats left for me is RP...
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
I'm going with "or not," as by then they'll have gerrymandered the "new and improved" system to the point where it's every bit as borked as it is now, just in a different way. And every new level of bork will be to "correct" something.
It's impossible to overestimate Cryptic's ability to TRIBBLE things up, or the frequency with which they do so.
With the new system you'll be able to maximize you're DPS or maximize your shield tanking, but you won't be able to do both.
Where do I need tanking of any kind in this game. If they don't make passives that are super duper no one is going to do the reps anymore. But again instead of nerfing us why can't they make hard content also known as nightmare mode.
This is basically change of balance ratio... by lowering value of skills you work for you get higher value for things you buy...
In reality this is just closing in on pure pay 2 win strategy... and it won't work... I bet my dilithium Cryptic revenues for STO will in fact get lower. Real Trekkies\Trekkers (whichever term you prefer) are somewhat different target audience and guys who run Cryptic don't understand that. I just hope decision makers will find right balance before they kill the game for most of us.
After some snooping around I have to say that some parts of my previous post may have been wrong. Somehow I completely missed the news that from March 11 that STO has become available for Mac platform...
Well this explains a lot... decision makers are expecting big bucks on this side... new platform with huge user base used to pay for things... and they may be right... If I were in their shoes I would pay special attention to Mac users too... though I would not disrespect current vets by erasing hundreds or thousands of hours of their time invested in the game... I would've invested more time in finding middle ground... distrust is not a good business model... it usually backfires...
I wouldn't take it very seriously, at least 500 pages of this thread is hyperbolic garbage posted by the same 5 people. You don't like the change, we get it. Make rational arguments in a civil fashion, instead of relying on a continuous stream of fallacious logic, misrepresentation, and libel, and maybe Cryptic would actually take you seriously.
I wouldn't take it very seriously, at least 500 pages of this thread is hyperbolic garbage posted by the same 5 people. You don't like the change, we get it. Make rational arguments in a civil fashion, instead of relying on a continuous stream of fallacious logic, misrepresentation, and libel, and maybe Cryptic would actually take you seriously.
Hello everyone,
We moved yesterdays post update to Dev Blog #3 as yesterdays addition to #5 was not the best blog to put that info into.
We wanted to alert everyone that we are listening to your feedback and take it very seriously.
Thanks for your understanding everyone!
~CaptainSmirk
I don't know about everyone else (don't have time to read the posts), but important information like this needed to be its own Dev Blog. That way it got more players' attention.
An edit to a previously posted blog needs to be only for missing stat info or missing features of a new ship, IMO.
We've read these blogs days ago. We're not tempted to re-re-reread these posts hunting for nuggets of newly edited info. We're also not all subscribed to the Dev Tracker, so an update that's nothing more than an edit to a previously-posted blog post isn't enough for information with such repercussions to our play styles.
I wouldn't take it very seriously, at least 500 pages of this thread is hyperbolic garbage posted by the same 5 people. You don't like the change, we get it. Make rational arguments in a civil fashion, instead of relying on a continuous stream of fallacious logic, misrepresentation, and libel, and maybe Cryptic would actually take you seriously.
I've made my arguments before, but I will say them again here.
--The proposed changes make new level 50s more competitive at the expense of nerfing veteran players.
--The proposed changes encourage min-maxing and reduce the relative value of tactically-minded piloting, which has always been something that I have really enjoyed about this game (yeah, I LIKE that you have to fly smart. It's challenging in a fun way).
--The proposed changes make it less worthwhile to complete all of the reps. Dyson for sure will be mostly ignored from this, as will Nukara unless you're a science ship pilot. Omega has the best gear (although I LIKE the Dyson ground set, I must admit that it's not as good as adapted Borg gear, and it's too tanky for Borg STFs, where DPS is king), and the Dyson space sets are very niche. People might or might not do Nukara; it's too much grind to be valuable unless you're a sci captain who wants the level 4 passives, and the gear isn't as important now that we have the Solanae suits. Romulan rep will continue being a colossal grind and a painfully boring rabbit hunt until the Devs get around to increasing payouts and giving us some elite versions of the Romulan mark queues, but the powers will become critical for any DPS build. Also, anyone who wants an "I Win" button for PVP just needs a few tiers in Rommie and I think Omega rep to buff their space crit chance and multiplier through the roof.
--I have already supported suggestions to freeze the rep trait caps at 8 ground/8 space/4 active and to keep the buffs at their present, lower values. I feel that the current system reduces the potential for "I Win" builds and min-maxing, and encourages smart piloting with its smaller but more widespread buffs. If the Devs want to add more reps, just freeze the number of "reputation traits" at 20 and make us choose between what we have and the new shinies.
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
I still would have preferred additional content to do that uses the equipment I am grinding for rather that a myriad of passive abilities. I personally think they went the wrong direction with the rewards as have they gone the wrong direction with DOFFs as buff items. Since this new rep trait system is being introduced AND can be used as options with loadout I think there is an ulterior motive was to also get more use out of the loadout system. They are accessible and we can swap and play...but then we get into the issues I have with the loadout system in general. Another system designed really well but implemented poorly.
The only disagreement I have with what you posted is Dyson will not die out is is a dilithium fountain. I think Nukara and Romulan WILL most definitely die out, or see even further reduced use. Of the four systems we have now I go to Defera for Omega and Fleet Marks and Dyson for Dilithium. I have not set foot on Nukara with most of my toons because it is a terrible place. As for New Romulus the same thing, when chasing rabbits around becomes the best source of obtaining Romulan Marks, it is time to rethink the reward structure of the rest of the zone. Both of those places have been in serious need of expansion/rethinking since they launched.
--The proposed changes encourage min-maxing and reduce the relative value of tactically-minded piloting, which has always been something that I have really enjoyed about this game (yeah, I LIKE that you have to fly smart. It's challenging in a fun way).
I fail to see how blindly collecting small buffs without a single thought to their actual benefit to you as a captain is any more "tactical" than carefully selecting the traits you need to be better at what you want to do.
I fail to see how blindly collecting small buffs without a single thought to their actual benefit to you as a captain is any more "tactical" than carefully selecting the traits you need to be better at what you want to do.
Tactical play, to me, is flying smart.
Min-maxing is not tactical play, to me. Making the best of a weak build is more fun, to me, then taking my Scimitar into ISE and ripping it apart.
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
The simplest solution to that problem is to do away with passives in future reps, and make it about gear. That way, people can keep the passives from the older reps without overburdening the system in the future.
The simplest solution to that problem is to do away with passives in future reps, and make it about gear. That way, people can keep the passives from the older reps without overburdening the system in the future.
...dude.
Brilliant idea.
Make another rep tree like the Dyson rep, and tie it to some sweet gear. And give it a couple of dil farm projects like Dyson has.
Hello everyone,
We moved yesterdays post update to Dev Blog #3 as yesterdays addition to #5 was not the best blog to put that info into.
We wanted to alert everyone that we are listening to your feedback and take it very seriously.
Thanks for your understanding everyone!
~CaptainSmirk
Not serious enough to scrap the whole idea of revamping something that on paper might sound good but when looking at the game of a whole it increases the power creep. If it goes live like anything I've heard so far I just won't bother coming back. Ever since I heard about that halfway thru the mirror event I didn't even bother to continue with that event much less participate in anything else in STO that is going to force me to grind to get a desired outcome that I would want and then just to rip it away.
If you really want to make me think you are listening scrap the whole revamp idea, get to the actual problem of power creep, and give all my characters that doff(don't care about the stupid FM's or dilithium) from the mirror event and then I might come back.
Comments
remind you of something?? :rolleyes:
Which is fine for them, I guess. But I persist in looking at the issue from the point of view of someone who really can't be bothered running STO with a pocket calculator in one hand.
The power set available at any one time is being reduced. If you don't want to worry about the numbers, this is a Bad Thing. Getting bigger numbers in compensation - isn't compensation. It's like Cryptic looking at my lunch menu and saying "well, you can't have ice cream and cola, but we're going to give you extra broccoli as compensation!" Whoop de doo.
An extra 0.27% average DPS does not equal 0.27% more fun. If you must have numbers and equations, the one I'm working with goes:-
Reduced Power Set + Extra Bookkeeping + Numbers I Don't Care About = Less Fun.
What would make me happy, or at least get me complaining about something else, is if I got to keep the power set I already have, so I don't need to worry about picking which ones I need for which occasion, and let the numbers fall where they may.
(Still leaves me with no incentive to participate in the next rep grind, mind, but that's not my problem.)
I agree. Personally, I am not doing the reputation systems anymore. I already cut my STO play time to a few minutes from hours. Additionally, I am not doing any grinding. I stopped the latter with the STO anniversary. I grinded for the Romulan ship and happened to get the Klingon ship which I have not played ever since so each ship have 0 play time.
Cryptic is making it really easy next to invest in paying in Eve Online or Vendetta Online. Way to go Cryptic!
Wait till there are more reputations. So, you end up with 120 choices and you can only pick 8 out of them.
Good, forces you to weigh the procs and cons and actually use your brain.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Come 2017, when people have 14 different reps to choose from, and all of the associated powers, I think the idea of what they were doing today might become a bit more apparent? Or not.
Huh? I did that with the Nukara rep as I saw there was nothing I was interested in. The only reason I ended up completing it was because I got bored and there was the CE event.
Same with the Dyson rep, the only real reason I bothered working my way through it was for the lump sum at the end. Since it only took 10-30 mins to get a project started, I saw no reason not to grind it.
So the change to the rep system would make no difference to me when in comes to grinding it.
As for the undine Rep, the T4 passive is more than worthwhile and the T5 active is frankly OP. So yeah, I'm grinding it.
This is basically future proofing the system and preventing power creep from getting out of hand with future updates.
With the new system you'll be able to maximize you're DPS or maximize your shield tanking, but you won't be able to do both.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
They did reduce it to 3 BNP for 1000 dil. You can only get 1 per run. That is 3 runs per 1000 dil always.
Currently you get a minimum of one and every 5 run you are guaranteed 1000 dil but you also had a chance of getting 6 or 11 bnp. that is automatically 1000 to 2000 dil in a run. there were days where I had run ise, cse and kase in a row got 11 in each for a total of 33 bnp or 6000 dil. you do not have that chance any more.
Random bonuses are nice. If you adjust the cost for equipment and dilithium then adjust the rewards. don't remove them. 1 every run but with a chance of getting 4 or 7 bnp instead of 6 or 11.
Yeah, im done with pvp too. No sense in trying to starting over again every season...by the time you get your ship right again from the last change they change things again. (Pointless struggle!) I think they are laughing at us, its like when hackers tear down your pc, after watching you work hard to setup music and video files, then virus you or erase them.
I may have to quit using James T Cat if I have to start all over again. It was hard enough using a novelty toon with what I did have for him, now it will be impossible. :mad: All thats left for me is RP...
I'm going with "or not," as by then they'll have gerrymandered the "new and improved" system to the point where it's every bit as borked as it is now, just in a different way. And every new level of bork will be to "correct" something.
It's impossible to overestimate Cryptic's ability to TRIBBLE things up, or the frequency with which they do so.
Where do I need tanking of any kind in this game. If they don't make passives that are super duper no one is going to do the reps anymore. But again instead of nerfing us why can't they make hard content also known as nightmare mode.
That is so true, except for the Art-Department the Devs on this game have no idea what they are doing.
Cryptic is only loyal to Cryptic.
Its that simple.
After some snooping around I have to say that some parts of my previous post may have been wrong. Somehow I completely missed the news that from March 11 that STO has become available for Mac platform...
Well this explains a lot... decision makers are expecting big bucks on this side... new platform with huge user base used to pay for things... and they may be right... If I were in their shoes I would pay special attention to Mac users too... though I would not disrespect current vets by erasing hundreds or thousands of hours of their time invested in the game... I would've invested more time in finding middle ground... distrust is not a good business model... it usually backfires...
We moved yesterdays post update to Dev Blog #3 as yesterdays addition to #5 was not the best blog to put that info into.
We wanted to alert everyone that we are listening to your feedback and take it very seriously.
Thanks for your understanding everyone!
~CaptainSmirk
Who was that directed at?
I don't know about everyone else (don't have time to read the posts), but important information like this needed to be its own Dev Blog. That way it got more players' attention.
An edit to a previously posted blog needs to be only for missing stat info or missing features of a new ship, IMO.
We've read these blogs days ago. We're not tempted to re-re-reread these posts hunting for nuggets of newly edited info. We're also not all subscribed to the Dev Tracker, so an update that's nothing more than an edit to a previously-posted blog post isn't enough for information with such repercussions to our play styles.
I've made my arguments before, but I will say them again here.
--The proposed changes make new level 50s more competitive at the expense of nerfing veteran players.
--The proposed changes encourage min-maxing and reduce the relative value of tactically-minded piloting, which has always been something that I have really enjoyed about this game (yeah, I LIKE that you have to fly smart. It's challenging in a fun way).
--The proposed changes make it less worthwhile to complete all of the reps. Dyson for sure will be mostly ignored from this, as will Nukara unless you're a science ship pilot. Omega has the best gear (although I LIKE the Dyson ground set, I must admit that it's not as good as adapted Borg gear, and it's too tanky for Borg STFs, where DPS is king), and the Dyson space sets are very niche. People might or might not do Nukara; it's too much grind to be valuable unless you're a sci captain who wants the level 4 passives, and the gear isn't as important now that we have the Solanae suits. Romulan rep will continue being a colossal grind and a painfully boring rabbit hunt until the Devs get around to increasing payouts and giving us some elite versions of the Romulan mark queues, but the powers will become critical for any DPS build. Also, anyone who wants an "I Win" button for PVP just needs a few tiers in Rommie and I think Omega rep to buff their space crit chance and multiplier through the roof.
--I have already supported suggestions to freeze the rep trait caps at 8 ground/8 space/4 active and to keep the buffs at their present, lower values. I feel that the current system reduces the potential for "I Win" builds and min-maxing, and encourages smart piloting with its smaller but more widespread buffs. If the Devs want to add more reps, just freeze the number of "reputation traits" at 20 and make us choose between what we have and the new shinies.
Hope this gets seen by the Devs.
I still would have preferred additional content to do that uses the equipment I am grinding for rather that a myriad of passive abilities. I personally think they went the wrong direction with the rewards as have they gone the wrong direction with DOFFs as buff items. Since this new rep trait system is being introduced AND can be used as options with loadout I think there is an ulterior motive was to also get more use out of the loadout system. They are accessible and we can swap and play...but then we get into the issues I have with the loadout system in general. Another system designed really well but implemented poorly.
The only disagreement I have with what you posted is Dyson will not die out is is a dilithium fountain. I think Nukara and Romulan WILL most definitely die out, or see even further reduced use. Of the four systems we have now I go to Defera for Omega and Fleet Marks and Dyson for Dilithium. I have not set foot on Nukara with most of my toons because it is a terrible place. As for New Romulus the same thing, when chasing rabbits around becomes the best source of obtaining Romulan Marks, it is time to rethink the reward structure of the rest of the zone. Both of those places have been in serious need of expansion/rethinking since they launched.
I fail to see how blindly collecting small buffs without a single thought to their actual benefit to you as a captain is any more "tactical" than carefully selecting the traits you need to be better at what you want to do.
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Tactical play, to me, is flying smart.
Min-maxing is not tactical play, to me. Making the best of a weak build is more fun, to me, then taking my Scimitar into ISE and ripping it apart.
The simplest solution to that problem is to do away with passives in future reps, and make it about gear. That way, people can keep the passives from the older reps without overburdening the system in the future.
...dude.
Brilliant idea.
Make another rep tree like the Dyson rep, and tie it to some sweet gear. And give it a couple of dil farm projects like Dyson has.
Ultimate awesome.
Not serious enough to scrap the whole idea of revamping something that on paper might sound good but when looking at the game of a whole it increases the power creep. If it goes live like anything I've heard so far I just won't bother coming back. Ever since I heard about that halfway thru the mirror event I didn't even bother to continue with that event much less participate in anything else in STO that is going to force me to grind to get a desired outcome that I would want and then just to rip it away.
If you really want to make me think you are listening scrap the whole revamp idea, get to the actual problem of power creep, and give all my characters that doff(don't care about the stupid FM's or dilithium) from the mirror event and then I might come back.