Key word there; 'forced'. Data had already violated the Prime Directive. What Picard did, he did because Data put him in a position where his morals came into conflict with the Prime Directive and where the majority of his Bridge Crew didn't agree with the Prime Directive in that instance.
That's because General Order One was never an absolute. Starship captains always had some lattitude in applying it to a given situation.
And Kirk (to name an example) routinely:
A: Worked around it.
or
B: Outright violated it (by TNG era standards).
And for the record, General Order One wasn't a non-interventionist regulation back in the day. It was originally intended to keep Starfleet from interfering with developing societies. When TNG rolled around, it was transformed into a principle of total non-interference with any society. Which , of course, was total bulls**t. And doesn't work that way in practice.
Thus, I have no qualms with some of these "violations" of the Prime Directive over the course of Prime Trek's run by the various COs.
You know, whilst I generally remain indifferent about Pine's Kirk, this (as highlighted in red) is one thing that DOES really annoy me. Because it's like the writers are saying "Kirk's awesome, because he has sex".
Okay.... so what? What does he do that makes women want to sleep with him? What is it that attracts women to him? We don't know - we don't see any of that; it's not a part of his personality that is touched upon at all. All that we know is that he has sex.
With Shatner's Kirk we knew why women were attracted to him - his suave confidence and personalty. We don't get that with Pine's Kirk - as I said, we're supposed to just think 'he has sex so he's awesome'. And that's just plain bad writing.
JJ and co strike me as having been the kind of horn-rimmed wearing, pocket-protector using nerds who probably would idolise/resent someone who was able to 'get some' while they were growing up, so that's about as deep as their understanding of the personality type goes... Trek 09 had Kirk essentially admit to having sex with farm animals... :cool:
You know, whilst I generally remain indifferent about Pine's Kirk, this (as highlighted in red) is one thing that DOES really annoy me. Because it's like the writers are saying "Kirk's awesome, because he has sex".
Okay.... so what? What does he do that makes women want to sleep with him? What is it that attracts women to him? We don't know - we don't see any of that; it's not a part of his personality that is touched upon at all. All that we know is that he has sex.
With Shatner's Kirk we knew why women were attracted to him - his suave confidence and personalty. We don't get that with Pine's Kirk - as I said, we're supposed to just think 'he has sex so he's awesome'. And that's just plain bad writing.
Probably asks them to smell a rag (soaked in chloroform)
--I hate New Kirk because he's not just a horny, drunken frat boy who think's he's a genius, but he's an arrogant, poorly-acted horny, drunken frat boy who think's he's a genius.
Let's deconstruct your criticism of Kirk in the Abrams directed films.
You claim he's a horny drunken frat boy.
Well, he's only drunk in one scene. That scene takes place before he enters starfleet. And he's less a frat boy in that scene and far more a "townie." (Which is discussed with him and Pike).
In that scene he hits on Uhura. But she rebuffs him.
I'm not sure it's really all that big a shock that a "townie" would try to hit on an attractive cadet at a college-type bar. But let's skip to the scene you're probably thinking of when you're calling him horny ...
The scene with Uhura's Orion roommate, Gaila. Where you gain the context that Mister Kirk liked to chase a variety of partners, wether successful or unsuccessful.
Here's the thing about that scene though ... he's at the academy. He pretty much IS a college frat boy at that point in his life.
So here's the point I'm trying to make ... in that film, once he gets onto the Enterprise, he stops doing all of the things you're blasting him for. Once the "trek" part of Star Trek starts, he's too busy trying to save the ship from being ambushed by a Romulan threat. Jumping onto a mining rig and fighting for his life and saving crewman Sulu. Trying his best to convince Spock that the logical decision to go to the Laurentian system was the wrong decision. Beaming back onto the ship with Scotty's help. And then taking command by forcing an emotional response from Spock, then once taking command, saving Pike, Earth and Starfleet.
No drunk frat boy antics at all in space.
The same holds true in the second film. Once he's on the bridge of his ship, he's all business. So while he ogles some women, once again on planet, by the time he's off to Klingon space and ducking and dodging Admiral Robocop's dreadnaught, he's back to being all business, all-Kirk.
So all I really take from your assessment is you didn't like "Townie" Kirk or "Academy" Kirk all that much and decided that was the only Kirk present in a film designed to develop Kirk's evolution.
Or, you just don't like this Kirk because he's not Shatner.
The same Shatner who has been mocked for decades for being a ham, and playing a womanizing, arrogant, ham it up narcissist in charge of a cardboard spaceship ready to bend the rules whenever it suited him.
(Keep in mind, Kirk is one of my favorite characters and TOS is one of my favorite Treks, it's just I remember the criticism, the SNL skits, the Jim Carrey skits, and I fully realize why people cracked on Shatner's performance).
So yeah, I definitely think that my sweeping generalizations still hit the mark. There are quite a few people who irrationally dislike Janeway and one of the reasons is because of her gender.
There are a lot of people who irrationally dislike Pine's Kirk and it's only because it's different and doesn't feel like what in their mind is their idea of Trek.
Since I've been through so many different iterations of Trek, it doesn't bug me anywhere near as much as the Abrams version seems to bug you.
But hey, you're the exception to the rule right? You always liked Picard and Sisko! Because they were ... awesome?
But you hate this new Kirk because he's ... not awesome?
Aaand, as I pointed out at the top of this post, Voyager returning to Federation space does not have to mean the end of the series...
In Voyager's case, it did. Just like Gilligan's Island.
Or, you just don't like this Kirk because he's not Shatner.
The same Shatner who has been mocked for decades for being a ham, and playing a womanizing, arrogant, ham it up narcissist in charge of a cardboard spaceship ready to bend the rules whenever it suited him.
And that's just the thing. Shatner's Kirk got called out for being a womanizing, arrogant space cowboy. Repeatedly. But he was a freaking ladies' man, not an immature frat boy. He was polite and respectful and charming and freaking professional. No freaking wonder Yeoman Rand kept trying to jump him.
New Kirk is presented as Perfect Hero even when he's being a misogynistic douche.
(Keep in mind, Kirk is one of my favorite characters and TOS is one of my favorite Treks, it's just I remember the criticism, the SNL skits, the Jim Carrey skits, and I fully realize why people cracked on Shatner's performance).
So yeah, I definitely think that my sweeping generalizations still hit the mark. There are quite a few people who irrationally dislike Janeway and one of the reasons is because of her gender.
There are a lot of people who irrationally dislike Pine's Kirk and it's only because it's different and doesn't feel like what in their mind is their idea of Trek.
Since I've been through so many different iterations of Trek, it doesn't bug me anywhere near as much as the Abrams version seems to bug you.
I hate Janeway because the writers wrote a Mary Sue instead of a strong female protagonist. Nothing against female Captains; heck, I will always have a sweet spot for Descent because Crusher gets to command the Enterprise. But I hate Janeway because she's a Sue, and I loathe New Kirk because Chris Pine can't act (whereas Shatner always overacted, which is not a bad thing in my opinion, given the tone of TOS) and because he's a blithering idiot. I hate Archer because he's a sanctimonious, hypocritical fool.
But you hate this new Kirk because he's ... not awesome?
Yup. Just like Archer annoys me. Kirk never acted all holier-than-thou (except in that episode with the racist idiots, but he really had moral standing there). Picard and Sisko never acted all sanctimonious and hypocritical.
And that's just the thing. Shatner's Kirk got called out for being a womanizing, arrogant space cowboy. Repeatedly. But he was a freaking ladies' man, not an immature frat boy. He was polite and respectful and charming and freaking professional. No freaking wonder Yeoman Rand kept trying to jump him.
New Kirk is presented as Perfect Hero even when he's being a misogynistic douche.
I hate Janeway because the writers wrote a Mary Sue instead of a strong female protagonist. Nothing against female Captains; heck, I will always have a sweet spot for Descent because Crusher gets to command the Enterprise. But I hate Janeway because she's a Sue, and I loathe New Kirk because Chris Pine can't act (whereas Shatner always overacted, which is not a bad thing in my opinion, given the tone of TOS) and because he's a blithering idiot. I hate Archer because he's a sanctimonious, hypocritical fool.
Yup.
Yup. Just like Archer annoys me. Kirk never acted all holier-than-thou (except in that episode with the racist idiots, but he really had moral standing there). Picard and Sisko never acted all sanctimonious and hypocritical.
But New Kirk does get called out for it. Most of ST:ID was spent illustrating how he was an TRIBBLE and how he grows as a character, taking responsibility. He truly learns what it means to be a Starfleet Captain by the end of the film.
And, in respect to Pine's performance, I don't think he's a bad actor, New Kirk was just poorly written. There's only so much an actor can do with poor lines.
The whole point of early Into Darkness was showing that Kirk wasn't a perfect hero. He was a spoilt brat who had no business being on a Starship's Bridge. But, by the end of the film, he truly understood what it meant to be a Starfleet Captain. That's the point.
But New Kirk does get called out for it. Most of ST:ID was spent illustrating how he was an TRIBBLE and how he grows as a character, taking responsibility. He truly learns what it means to be a Starfleet Captain by the end of the film.
But he was supposed to have done that in the last movie. He shouldn't HAVE to redo the supposed character growth from the previous film.
And, in respect to Pine's performance, I don't think he's a bad actor, New Kirk was just poorly written. There's only so much an actor can do with poor lines.
I personally find the lines to be inane and Pine's performance to be flat. But TEHO.
The whole point of early Into Darkness was showing that Kirk wasn't a perfect hero. He was a spoilt brat who had no business being on a Starship's Bridge. But, by the end of the film, he truly understood what it meant to be a Starfleet Captain. That's the point.
Again, he was supposed to have done that in the last movie.
And seriously, Spock is more intelligent and more competent than Kirk, and the whole damn crew knows it. Spock fights Khan and actually beats him up, Spock tells Kirk repeatedly that he's being an emo idiot and gets brushed off, Spock is smart enough to call Real Spock for help, Spock comes up with a brilliant plan to stop Khan, Spock watches in disbelief as Kirk tries to interrogate Khan, who runs verbal rings around him...
Why the hell didn't the crew mutiny, throw Kirk in the brig as unfit for command, and make Spock Captain???
But he was supposed to have done that in the last movie. He shouldn't HAVE to redo the supposed character growth from the previous film.
I personally find the lines to be inane and Pine's performance to be flat. But TEHO.
Again, he was supposed to have done that in the last movie.
And seriously, Spock is more intelligent and more competent than Kirk, and the whole damn crew knows it. Spock fights Khan and actually beats him up, Spock tells Kirk repeatedly that he's being an emo idiot and gets brushed off, Spock is smart enough to call Real Spock for help, Spock comes up with a brilliant plan to stop Khan, Spock watches in disbelief as Kirk tries to interrogate Khan, who runs verbal rings around him...
Why the hell didn't the crew mutiny, throw Kirk in the brig as unfit for command, and make Spock Captain???
Old Kirk did that as well, though he was more polite about it.
Spock also lacks something Kirk has in abundance; intuition. It's a point even Vulcans raise that they lack human intuition which is so useful in a command position. In TOS, they used 'Galileo Seven' to show how difficult it was for a Vulcan to be a 'good' captain.
You're also forgetting Kirk's feats in the film: Kirk saved the crew of the Enterprise at the cost of his own life - 500 starfleet officers, (at least). He was willing to hand himself over to Admiral Bland Villainous Angry-Pants to save his crew (and he was thinking of his crew, for a change) and he helped to expose a conspiracy within Starfleet to trigger a war with the Klingon Empire.
Old Kirk did that as well, though he was more polite about it.
If you mean womanizing, then yes. He was polite and professional, not to mention actually witty and charming. My GF says that he's the old-fashioned ladies' man sort that women like to be seduced by.
Spock also lacks something Kirk has in abundance; intuition. It's a point even Vulcans raise that they lack human intuition which is so useful in a command position. In TOS, they used 'Galileo Seven' to show how difficult it was for a Vulcan to be a 'good' captain.
New Kirk doesn't HAVE intuition, and when he does have it it leads him the wrong way. New Spock is ten times the Captain and ten times the man that Kirk is.
You're also forgetting Kirk's feats in the film: Kirk saved the crew of the Enterprise at the cost of his own life - 500 starfleet officers, (at least). He was willing to hand himself over to Admiral Bland Villainous Angry-Pants to save his crew (and he was thinking of his crew, for a change) and he helped to expose a conspiracy within Starfleet to trigger a war with the Klingon Empire.
Yeah, I think that you should see Star Trek: Into Whiteness. Lemme get you a link...
In Voyager's case, it did. Just like Gilligan's Island.
Completely not the point... The point was, that it didn't have to be the end of the series. Many of the episodes, it simply did not matter which quadrant they were in, so it would not have mattered if they were back in Federation space or not. Yes, the premise was that they were out of contact, but a) it was a TRIBBLE premise to base a seven season series on, and b) that premise was largely ignored for the sake of producing shows which could be viewed in random order during syndication. No sooner and Chakotay and crew come on board, they accepted Starfleet protocols with no issue whatsoever. Other than the four TRIBBLE ups who Tuvok decided to tutor -- a concept so awesome (sarcasm) that they did it again with Janeway playing good shepard... The writers continually passed up opportunities which the premise gave them, for favour of TNG II shenanigans...
If you mean womanizing, then yes. He was polite and professional, not to mention actually witty and charming. My GF says that he's the old-fashioned ladies' man sort that women like to be seduced by.
New Kirk doesn't HAVE intuition, and when he does have it it leads him the wrong way. New Spock is ten times the Captain and ten times the man that Kirk is.
Yeah, I think that you should see Star Trek: Into Whiteness. Lemme get you a link...
I meant brushing Spock off, though I probably could have worded that differently. Old Kirk did brush Spock off on occasion, though he was polite about it and usually did take some of what Spock had to say to heart. New Kirk didn't do that until he was relieved of command by Pike.
New Kirk has more intuition than you might think. It took intuition to know that Khan would be liable to betray him on the Vengeance (bare in mind that, while we knew Khan was evil, Kirk had only just met him and, from his perspective, Khan was a victim to some extent). Again, Spock is, as a Vulcan, incapable of intuition. Intelligence and a logical analysis of the situation do not a good captain make, a point that has been bought up repeatedly throughout Trek. As for '10x the man'...
Must resist urge to make ST:VI quote... :P
But, I full well know I'm in the minority of people who enjoy ST:ID, though I will agree that New Kirk is not as good a character as Old Kirk, or even some of the other characters in the film. But I'm willing to accept a fresh take on Trek, even if it's nothing like what I grew up with (TNG) or what I'd normally consider 'Trek'.
I meant brushing Spock off, though I probably could have worded that differently. Old Kirk did brush Spock off on occasion, though he was polite about it and usually did take some of what Spock had to say to heart. New Kirk didn't do that until he was relieved of command by Pike.
New Kirk has more intuition than you might think. It took intuition to know that Khan would be liable to betray him on the Vengeance (bare in mind that, while we knew Khan was evil, Kirk had only just met him and, from his perspective, Khan was a victim to some extent). Again, Spock is, as a Vulcan, incapable of intuition. Intelligence and a logical analysis of the situation do not a good captain make, a point that has been bought up repeatedly throughout Trek. As for '10x the man'...
Must resist urge to make ST:VI quote... :P
But, I full well know I'm in the minority of people who enjoy ST:ID, though I will agree that New Kirk is not as good a character as Old Kirk, or even some of the other characters in the film. But I'm willing to accept a fresh take on Trek, even if it's nothing like what I grew up with (TNG) or what I'd normally consider 'Trek'.
Oh, I ENJOYED Into Darkness. Just like I enjoyed Nemesis. There was a lot of shooting and fighting and stuff, and if I ignored Christopher Pine and the boring love interest and watched Benedict Cumberbatch steal Every. Single. Scene. it was OK.
Seriously, what is with the tries to sex up Trek? Zoe Saldana is hotter than Alice Eve, period. She'd be more attractive in an EV suit than Carol Marcus is in her underwear. It's aaaaaall about the attitude, something that JJ seems to have missed. The Borg Queen and her TRIBBLE act? Magnetic, even when she's being lowered into her own body. Alice Eve in bra and panties? Boring.
Khan beat the TRIBBLE out of like 50 Klingon shock troopers and took out 3 birds of prey with a hand-held weapon. He blew up a f*cking building. He's acting like a complete sociopath and confusing the crew with his sudden decisions. Being suspicious isn't intuition, it's common sense.
Brushing Spock off, yes. Real Kirk was always polite about that, and he DID actually listen. Which was usually good for his health.
I meant brushing Spock off, though I probably could have worded that differently. Old Kirk did brush Spock off on occasion, though he was polite about it and usually did take some of what Spock had to say to heart. New Kirk didn't do that until he was relieved of command by Pike.
New Kirk has more intuition than you might think. It took intuition to know that Khan would be liable to betray him on the Vengeance (bare in mind that, while we knew Khan was evil, Kirk had only just met him and, from his perspective, Khan was a victim to some extent). Again, Spock is, as a Vulcan, incapable of intuition. Intelligence and a logical analysis of the situation do not a good captain make, a point that has been bought up repeatedly throughout Trek. As for '10x the man'...
Must resist urge to make ST:VI quote... :P
But, I full well know I'm in the minority of people who enjoy ST:ID, though I will agree that New Kirk is not as good a character as Old Kirk, or even some of the other characters in the film. But I'm willing to accept a fresh take on Trek, even if it's nothing like what I grew up with (TNG) or what I'd normally consider 'Trek'.
NO!!!
Khan ONLY turned on Kirk and co, because they betrayed him... Same as that loony TRIBBLE Marcus manipulated and blackmailed him... In the AlternaVerse, Khan was an honourable man. He gave his blood to the girl's parents in advance of the bombing, not as a bargaining point which could be later withheld. He tried to protect his crew from Marcus' loony schemes (I seriously could not hate a character more than I hate that mad TRIBBLE, especially when he starts delusionally monologuing what he wants to pretend Kirk has done. If I'd been Kirk, I'd've pistol-whipped him IN THE FACE on the Vengeance then hauled his TRIBBLE to the brig) and only turned on Kirk, after Kirk ordered Scotty to put him down (although I will admit, he didn't need to break Carol's hip like that...)
Oh, I ENJOYED Into Darkness. Just like I enjoyed Nemesis. There was a lot of shooting and fighting and stuff, and if I ignored Christopher Pine and the boring love interest and watched Benedict Cumberbatch steal Every. Single. Scene. it was OK.
Seriously, what is with the tries to sex up Trek? Zoe Saldana is hotter than Alice Eve, period. She'd be more attractive in an EV suit than Carol Marcus is in her underwear. It's aaaaaall about the attitude, something that JJ seems to have missed. The Borg Queen and her TRIBBLE act? Magnetic, even when she's being lowered into her own body. Alice Eve in bra and panties? Boring.
Khan beat the TRIBBLE out of like 50 Klingon shock troopers and took out 3 birds of prey with a hand-held weapon. He blew up a f*cking building. He's acting like a complete sociopath and confusing the crew with his sudden decisions. Being suspicious isn't intuition, it's common sense.
Brushing Spock off, yes. Real Kirk was always polite about that, and he DID actually listen. Which was usually good for his health.
Being suspicious is one thing. Taking a risk and acting on that suspicion without a massive amount of proof? That takes a certain kind of intuition and courage.
Every military officer has to make calls like that day-by-day and while, true, New Kirk would have been kicked out of a real military on day one, he makes similar calls. Calls those of us who aren't in the military can't imagine making. Likewise, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer and Old Kirk would have also been thrown out of a real military (okay, maybe not Sisko) for one reason or another, but they get away with it because Starfleet is not a real military. It does not adhere to the same rules (for starters, relationships within the forces is permitted in Star Trek). But, they still make those same calls - life or death decisions. So next time someone says that they have no intuition, remember that these characters are making calls that you maybe couldn't.
It's more than common sense to take a chance. It's courage and intuition.
As for trying to 'sex up' Trek? I. Agree. Completely. Trek is about the human condition, but not in that way!
Like I said, I usually avoid thinking of JJ Trek alongside its Prime Timeline counterparts, but as its own separate entity, so I don't usually think of it as being 'Trek' or not.
Khan ONLY turned on Kirk and co, because they betrayed him... Same as that loony TRIBBLE Marcus manipulated and blackmailed him... In the AlternaVerse, Khan was an honourable man. He gave his blood to the girl's parents in advance of the bombing, not as a bargaining point which could be later withheld. He tried to protect his crew from Marcus' loony schemes (I seriously could not hate a character more than I hate that mad TRIBBLE, especially when he starts delusionally monologuing what he wants to pretend Kirk has done. If I'd been Kirk, I'd've pistol-whipped him IN THE FACE on the Vengeance then hauled his TRIBBLE to the brig) and only turned on Kirk, after Kirk ordered Scotty to put him down (although I will admit, he didn't need to break Carol's hip like that...)
As Spock himself stated, Khan's purpose was to destroy anyone he saw as anything less than superior and he was going to kill Admiral Marcus no matter what happened - that was clear. Maybe he betrayed Kirk in this instance because Kirk betrayed him, but that was because Kirk knew that he was going to betray them anyway! However you spin it, Khan may have been more honourable in the JJverse, but he was still Khan - dedicated to his own personal crusade of 'Homo Superior'. He only halted that crusade because Marcus was holding his crew hostage - as weapons.
Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with Khan in both realities for different reasons. JJ Khan was a victim, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a man who, by his own admission, was committed to the destruction of anyone who wasn't totally superior to him and his 'family'. He's like Magneto from the X-Men; you sympathise with him and maybe he's not entirely evil, but he is still the villain, committed to his goals which you know are not the right thing.
As Spock himself stated, Khan's purpose was to destroy anyone he saw as anything less than superior and he was going to kill Admiral Marcus no matter what happened - that was clear. Maybe he betrayed Kirk in this instance because Kirk betrayed him, but that was because Kirk knew that he was going to betray them anyway! However you spin it, Khan may have been more honourable in the JJverse, but he was still Khan - dedicated to his own personal crusade of 'Homo Superior'. He only halted that crusade because Marcus was holding his crew hostage - as weapons.
Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with Khan in both realities for different reasons. JJ Khan was a victim, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a man who, by his own admission, was committed to the destruction of anyone who wasn't totally superior to him and his 'family'. He's like Magneto from the X-Men; you sympathise with him and maybe he's not entirely evil, but he is still the villain, committed to his goals which you know are not the right thing.
Yes, he was going to kill Marcus because he screwed him over... I disagree that in this reality, Khan was definitely going to betray them, after all, he got Kirk back on course, then gave him that "Yeah, we're bros now..." look... Same as he never tried to defend himself when Kirk was beating on him... Prime Spock's opinion of Khan completely clouded the issue from what was actually presented... I would definitely agree with the Magneto comparison, but, I don't see him as having taken his crew and gone on his Homo Superior crusade, as if he'd wanted to do it, he would have...
Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with Khan in both realities for different reasons. JJ Khan was a victim, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a man who, by his own admission, was committed to the destruction of anyone who wasn't totally superior to him and his 'family'. He's like Magneto from the X-Men; you sympathise with him and maybe he's not entirely evil, but he is still the villain, committed to his goals which you know are not the right thing.
I think that's the best way I've heard to describe him.
Khan wasn't the villain of ID, honestly Section 31 wasn't either, it was Marcus, he operated antithetically to Section 31s usual MO, with open warfare rather than covert assassinations or manipulations.
Seriously, what is with the tries to sex up Trek? Zoe Saldana is hotter than Alice Eve, period. She'd be more attractive in an EV suit than Carol Marcus is in her underwear.
I agree that the scene was ridicules and out of place, but Alice Eve is so much nicer than Zoe Saldana.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Yes, he was going to kill Marcus because he screwed him over... I disagree that in this reality, Khan was definitely going to betray them, after all, he got Kirk back on course, then gave him that "Yeah, we're bros now..." look... Same as he never tried to defend himself when Kirk was beating on him... Prime Spock's opinion of Khan completely clouded the issue from what was actually presented... I would definitely agree with the Magneto comparison, but, I don't see him as having taken his crew and gone on his Homo Superior crusade, as if he'd wanted to do it, he would have...
Khan himself admitted that his goal was to destroy all those he saw as less than superior to him.
I always saw his lack of retaliation against Kirk as being more because Kirk could not hurt him. Khan even mocks Kirk about it later when he's incarcerated.
And I find it slightly hypocritical to fault Janeway for not having measures in place against the Borg and then fault Kirk for taking measures against Khan.
I think that's the best way I've heard to describe him.
Khan wasn't the villain of ID, honestly Section 31 wasn't either, it was Marcus, he operated antithetically to Section 31s usual MO, with open warfare rather than covert assassinations or manipulations.
I think that's the best way I've heard to describe him.
Khan wasn't the villain of ID, honestly Section 31 wasn't either, it was Marcus, he operated antithetically to Section 31s usual MO, with open warfare rather than covert assassinations or manipulations.
Contrary to what some may believe, I totally agree with this. Marcus was a total nutbag and was essentially a (bad, generic, cliche) embodiment of villainy. Khan was not the villain of Into Darkness. He was a villain, but not the villain. Similar to Sandman from Spider-Man 3 (no matter how much I hate that movie).
Contrary to what some may believe, I totally agree with this. Marcus was a total nutbag and was essentially a (bad, generic, cliche) embodiment of villainy. Khan was not the villain of Into Darkness. He was a villain, but not the villain. Similar to Sandman from Spider-Man 3 (no matter how much I hate that movie).
Agreed, again. Marcus is totally cliche, and the protagonists are cliche in their complete failure to anticipate his entirely predictable moves.
He was a villain, but not the villain. Similar to Sandman from Spider-Man 3 (no matter how much I hate that movie).
Also quite correct, however Marco was a villain for no good reason than the film demanded it, however Khan does have a air of danger around him, even if he isn't going to be a direct threat to Kirk after a joint capture of Marcus, Khans very presence would be very bad for relations with the Klingons, remember what happened the last time the Klingons found human augments?
Ahem!
Gentlemen... I'm afraid I'm going to have to interrupt this debate before it crosses a line at which it violates the ToS.
I think Khan is what Nero could have been in the first film had all his character scenes not been cut.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Gentlemen... I'm afraid I'm going to have to interrupt this debate before it crosses a line at which it violates the ToS.
Though, Saldana did get better dialogue.
...which is what I said.
Look, sexiness is aaaaall about the attitude. Why is the Borg Queen hot while the objectively more aesthetic love interest from Insurrection is boring? Attitude. And in the Borg Queen's case, a really good TRIBBLE act.
Zoe Saldana's Uhura shows personality and does badass things like trying to negotiate with Klingons whose planet she's landed on illegally. (note: badass, not intelligent or sensible)
Alice Eve's whatsherface is...well, she's a science something or other and has an underwear scene. Really, it's pathetic. Oh, and Khan beats her up on her daddy's ship and we don't see her for the rest of the movie.
Khan himself admitted that his goal was to destroy all those he saw as less than superior to him.
Did he? I've seen ID 7-8 times now, and don't remember him admitting that that was his goal... Maybe I just missed it under all Marcus' lies and the BS he was shovelling at the briefing. I hate that SOB sooooooo much...
I always saw his lack of retaliation against Kirk as being more because Kirk could not hurt him. Khan even mocks Kirk about it later when he's incarcerated.
I agree, Kirk might not have been able to hurt him, but, he still could have stopped him from hitting him (technically, Kirk was assaulting a prisoner...) I always felt he was mocking Kirk's lack of self-control, not his inferior Humanity...
And I find it slightly hypocritical to fault Janeway for not having measures in place against the Borg and then fault Kirk for taking measures against Khan.
Sorry, I've lost you there... I never criticised Janeway for not having measures against the Borg, but for being an inconsistently written character... As before, Khan gave Kirk 'The Nod' that they were bros, Kirk had no need to order Scotty to put him down. Plot Necessity has a lot to answer for in that film...
C'mon...Zoe Saldana is soooooooo much hotter. She's got a better body, more attitude, and better lines.
No... Saldana's Nuhura is just a stereotypical snarky b**ch (and as an actress, she's capable of much more) I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole... Alice Eve's Carol Marcus on the other hand... I would not say no to her... :P
Did he? I've seen ID 7-8 times now, and don't remember him admitting that that was his goal... Maybe I just missed it under all Marcus' lies and the BS he was shovelling at the briefing. I hate that SOB sooooooo much...
It was when Spock confronted Khan over the Viewscreen. He didn't outright say it, but he did not deny it and certainly inferred that it was true.
Sorry, I've lost you there... I never criticised Janeway for not having measures against the Borg, but for being an inconsistently written character... As before, Khan gave Kirk 'The Nod' that they were bros, Kirk had no need to order Scotty to put him down. Plot Necessity has a lot to answer for in that film...
Didn't you? Huh, sorry. Must have confused you with someone else.
And, again, Kirk knew that Khan would likely kill Marcus no matter what happened. Ordering Scotty to stun him was the responsible thing to do to ensure that a prisoner is not executed without endangering anyone else. Personally, I think Kirk exercised a great deal of restraint for not shooting Marcus himself.
No... Saldana's Nuhura is just a stereotypical snarky b**ch (and as an actress, she's capable of much more) I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole... Alice Eve's Carol Marcus on the other hand... I would not say no to her... :P
Huh, we found something you and Worffan disagree on.
And of course it's about your taste in women :rolleyes:.
No... Saldana's Nuhura is just a stereotypical snarky b**ch (and as an actress, she's capable of much more) I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole... Alice Eve's Carol Marcus on the other hand... I would not say no to her... :P
TEHO. I found Carol Marcus to be bland and something of a misogynistic fainting daisy myself.
Comments
That's because General Order One was never an absolute. Starship captains always had some lattitude in applying it to a given situation.
And Kirk (to name an example) routinely:
A: Worked around it.
or
B: Outright violated it (by TNG era standards).
And for the record, General Order One wasn't a non-interventionist regulation back in the day. It was originally intended to keep Starfleet from interfering with developing societies. When TNG rolled around, it was transformed into a principle of total non-interference with any society. Which , of course, was total bulls**t. And doesn't work that way in practice.
Thus, I have no qualms with some of these "violations" of the Prime Directive over the course of Prime Trek's run by the various COs.
JJ and co strike me as having been the kind of horn-rimmed wearing, pocket-protector using nerds who probably would idolise/resent someone who was able to 'get some' while they were growing up, so that's about as deep as their understanding of the personality type goes... Trek 09 had Kirk essentially admit to having sex with farm animals... :cool:
Probably asks them to smell a rag (soaked in chloroform)
I don't have a worst.
Let's deconstruct your criticism of Kirk in the Abrams directed films.
You claim he's a horny drunken frat boy.
Well, he's only drunk in one scene. That scene takes place before he enters starfleet. And he's less a frat boy in that scene and far more a "townie." (Which is discussed with him and Pike).
In that scene he hits on Uhura. But she rebuffs him.
I'm not sure it's really all that big a shock that a "townie" would try to hit on an attractive cadet at a college-type bar. But let's skip to the scene you're probably thinking of when you're calling him horny ...
The scene with Uhura's Orion roommate, Gaila. Where you gain the context that Mister Kirk liked to chase a variety of partners, wether successful or unsuccessful.
Here's the thing about that scene though ... he's at the academy. He pretty much IS a college frat boy at that point in his life.
So here's the point I'm trying to make ... in that film, once he gets onto the Enterprise, he stops doing all of the things you're blasting him for. Once the "trek" part of Star Trek starts, he's too busy trying to save the ship from being ambushed by a Romulan threat. Jumping onto a mining rig and fighting for his life and saving crewman Sulu. Trying his best to convince Spock that the logical decision to go to the Laurentian system was the wrong decision. Beaming back onto the ship with Scotty's help. And then taking command by forcing an emotional response from Spock, then once taking command, saving Pike, Earth and Starfleet.
No drunk frat boy antics at all in space.
The same holds true in the second film. Once he's on the bridge of his ship, he's all business. So while he ogles some women, once again on planet, by the time he's off to Klingon space and ducking and dodging Admiral Robocop's dreadnaught, he's back to being all business, all-Kirk.
So all I really take from your assessment is you didn't like "Townie" Kirk or "Academy" Kirk all that much and decided that was the only Kirk present in a film designed to develop Kirk's evolution.
Or, you just don't like this Kirk because he's not Shatner.
The same Shatner who has been mocked for decades for being a ham, and playing a womanizing, arrogant, ham it up narcissist in charge of a cardboard spaceship ready to bend the rules whenever it suited him.
(Keep in mind, Kirk is one of my favorite characters and TOS is one of my favorite Treks, it's just I remember the criticism, the SNL skits, the Jim Carrey skits, and I fully realize why people cracked on Shatner's performance).
So yeah, I definitely think that my sweeping generalizations still hit the mark. There are quite a few people who irrationally dislike Janeway and one of the reasons is because of her gender.
There are a lot of people who irrationally dislike Pine's Kirk and it's only because it's different and doesn't feel like what in their mind is their idea of Trek.
Since I've been through so many different iterations of Trek, it doesn't bug me anywhere near as much as the Abrams version seems to bug you.
But hey, you're the exception to the rule right? You always liked Picard and Sisko! Because they were ... awesome?
But you hate this new Kirk because he's ... not awesome?
In Voyager's case, it did. Just like Gilligan's Island.
And that's just the thing. Shatner's Kirk got called out for being a womanizing, arrogant space cowboy. Repeatedly. But he was a freaking ladies' man, not an immature frat boy. He was polite and respectful and charming and freaking professional. No freaking wonder Yeoman Rand kept trying to jump him.
New Kirk is presented as Perfect Hero even when he's being a misogynistic douche.
I hate Janeway because the writers wrote a Mary Sue instead of a strong female protagonist. Nothing against female Captains; heck, I will always have a sweet spot for Descent because Crusher gets to command the Enterprise. But I hate Janeway because she's a Sue, and I loathe New Kirk because Chris Pine can't act (whereas Shatner always overacted, which is not a bad thing in my opinion, given the tone of TOS) and because he's a blithering idiot. I hate Archer because he's a sanctimonious, hypocritical fool.
Yup.
Yup. Just like Archer annoys me. Kirk never acted all holier-than-thou (except in that episode with the racist idiots, but he really had moral standing there). Picard and Sisko never acted all sanctimonious and hypocritical.
But New Kirk does get called out for it. Most of ST:ID was spent illustrating how he was an TRIBBLE and how he grows as a character, taking responsibility. He truly learns what it means to be a Starfleet Captain by the end of the film.
And, in respect to Pine's performance, I don't think he's a bad actor, New Kirk was just poorly written. There's only so much an actor can do with poor lines.
The whole point of early Into Darkness was showing that Kirk wasn't a perfect hero. He was a spoilt brat who had no business being on a Starship's Bridge. But, by the end of the film, he truly understood what it meant to be a Starfleet Captain. That's the point.
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Again, he was supposed to have done that in the last movie.
And seriously, Spock is more intelligent and more competent than Kirk, and the whole damn crew knows it. Spock fights Khan and actually beats him up, Spock tells Kirk repeatedly that he's being an emo idiot and gets brushed off, Spock is smart enough to call Real Spock for help, Spock comes up with a brilliant plan to stop Khan, Spock watches in disbelief as Kirk tries to interrogate Khan, who runs verbal rings around him...
Why the hell didn't the crew mutiny, throw Kirk in the brig as unfit for command, and make Spock Captain???
Old Kirk did that as well, though he was more polite about it.
Spock also lacks something Kirk has in abundance; intuition. It's a point even Vulcans raise that they lack human intuition which is so useful in a command position. In TOS, they used 'Galileo Seven' to show how difficult it was for a Vulcan to be a 'good' captain.
You're also forgetting Kirk's feats in the film: Kirk saved the crew of the Enterprise at the cost of his own life - 500 starfleet officers, (at least). He was willing to hand himself over to Admiral Bland Villainous Angry-Pants to save his crew (and he was thinking of his crew, for a change) and he helped to expose a conspiracy within Starfleet to trigger a war with the Klingon Empire.
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Yeah, I think that you should see Star Trek: Into Whiteness. Lemme get you a link...
EDIT: here
I meant brushing Spock off, though I probably could have worded that differently. Old Kirk did brush Spock off on occasion, though he was polite about it and usually did take some of what Spock had to say to heart. New Kirk didn't do that until he was relieved of command by Pike.
New Kirk has more intuition than you might think. It took intuition to know that Khan would be liable to betray him on the Vengeance (bare in mind that, while we knew Khan was evil, Kirk had only just met him and, from his perspective, Khan was a victim to some extent). Again, Spock is, as a Vulcan, incapable of intuition. Intelligence and a logical analysis of the situation do not a good captain make, a point that has been bought up repeatedly throughout Trek. As for '10x the man'...
Must resist urge to make ST:VI quote... :P
But, I full well know I'm in the minority of people who enjoy ST:ID, though I will agree that New Kirk is not as good a character as Old Kirk, or even some of the other characters in the film. But I'm willing to accept a fresh take on Trek, even if it's nothing like what I grew up with (TNG) or what I'd normally consider 'Trek'.
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Oh, I ENJOYED Into Darkness. Just like I enjoyed Nemesis. There was a lot of shooting and fighting and stuff, and if I ignored Christopher Pine and the boring love interest and watched Benedict Cumberbatch steal Every. Single. Scene. it was OK.
Seriously, what is with the tries to sex up Trek? Zoe Saldana is hotter than Alice Eve, period. She'd be more attractive in an EV suit than Carol Marcus is in her underwear. It's aaaaaall about the attitude, something that JJ seems to have missed. The Borg Queen and her TRIBBLE act? Magnetic, even when she's being lowered into her own body. Alice Eve in bra and panties? Boring.
Khan beat the TRIBBLE out of like 50 Klingon shock troopers and took out 3 birds of prey with a hand-held weapon. He blew up a f*cking building. He's acting like a complete sociopath and confusing the crew with his sudden decisions. Being suspicious isn't intuition, it's common sense.
Brushing Spock off, yes. Real Kirk was always polite about that, and he DID actually listen. Which was usually good for his health.
Khan ONLY turned on Kirk and co, because they betrayed him... Same as that loony TRIBBLE Marcus manipulated and blackmailed him... In the AlternaVerse, Khan was an honourable man. He gave his blood to the girl's parents in advance of the bombing, not as a bargaining point which could be later withheld. He tried to protect his crew from Marcus' loony schemes (I seriously could not hate a character more than I hate that mad TRIBBLE, especially when he starts delusionally monologuing what he wants to pretend Kirk has done. If I'd been Kirk, I'd've pistol-whipped him IN THE FACE on the Vengeance then hauled his TRIBBLE to the brig) and only turned on Kirk, after Kirk ordered Scotty to put him down (although I will admit, he didn't need to break Carol's hip like that...)
Being suspicious is one thing. Taking a risk and acting on that suspicion without a massive amount of proof? That takes a certain kind of intuition and courage.
Every military officer has to make calls like that day-by-day and while, true, New Kirk would have been kicked out of a real military on day one, he makes similar calls. Calls those of us who aren't in the military can't imagine making. Likewise, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer and Old Kirk would have also been thrown out of a real military (okay, maybe not Sisko) for one reason or another, but they get away with it because Starfleet is not a real military. It does not adhere to the same rules (for starters, relationships within the forces is permitted in Star Trek). But, they still make those same calls - life or death decisions. So next time someone says that they have no intuition, remember that these characters are making calls that you maybe couldn't.
It's more than common sense to take a chance. It's courage and intuition.
As for trying to 'sex up' Trek? I. Agree. Completely. Trek is about the human condition, but not in that way!
Like I said, I usually avoid thinking of JJ Trek alongside its Prime Timeline counterparts, but as its own separate entity, so I don't usually think of it as being 'Trek' or not.
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As Spock himself stated, Khan's purpose was to destroy anyone he saw as anything less than superior and he was going to kill Admiral Marcus no matter what happened - that was clear. Maybe he betrayed Kirk in this instance because Kirk betrayed him, but that was because Kirk knew that he was going to betray them anyway! However you spin it, Khan may have been more honourable in the JJverse, but he was still Khan - dedicated to his own personal crusade of 'Homo Superior'. He only halted that crusade because Marcus was holding his crew hostage - as weapons.
Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with Khan in both realities for different reasons. JJ Khan was a victim, but that doesn't change the fact that this was a man who, by his own admission, was committed to the destruction of anyone who wasn't totally superior to him and his 'family'. He's like Magneto from the X-Men; you sympathise with him and maybe he's not entirely evil, but he is still the villain, committed to his goals which you know are not the right thing.
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Yes, he was going to kill Marcus because he screwed him over... I disagree that in this reality, Khan was definitely going to betray them, after all, he got Kirk back on course, then gave him that "Yeah, we're bros now..." look... Same as he never tried to defend himself when Kirk was beating on him... Prime Spock's opinion of Khan completely clouded the issue from what was actually presented... I would definitely agree with the Magneto comparison, but, I don't see him as having taken his crew and gone on his Homo Superior crusade, as if he'd wanted to do it, he would have...
I think that's the best way I've heard to describe him.
Khan wasn't the villain of ID, honestly Section 31 wasn't either, it was Marcus, he operated antithetically to Section 31s usual MO, with open warfare rather than covert assassinations or manipulations.
I agree that the scene was ridicules and out of place, but Alice Eve is so much nicer than Zoe Saldana.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Khan himself admitted that his goal was to destroy all those he saw as less than superior to him.
I always saw his lack of retaliation against Kirk as being more because Kirk could not hurt him. Khan even mocks Kirk about it later when he's incarcerated.
And I find it slightly hypocritical to fault Janeway for not having measures in place against the Borg and then fault Kirk for taking measures against Khan.
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This^^^
C'mon...Zoe Saldana is soooooooo much hotter. She's got a better body, more attitude, and better lines.
Contrary to what some may believe, I totally agree with this. Marcus was a total nutbag and was essentially a (bad, generic, cliche) embodiment of villainy. Khan was not the villain of Into Darkness. He was a villain, but not the villain. Similar to Sandman from Spider-Man 3 (no matter how much I hate that movie).
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Agreed, again. Marcus is totally cliche, and the protagonists are cliche in their complete failure to anticipate his entirely predictable moves.
Ahem!
Gentlemen... I'm afraid I'm going to have to interrupt this debate before it crosses a line at which it violates the ToS.
Though, Saldana did get better dialogue.
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Also quite correct, however Marco was a villain for no good reason than the film demanded it, however Khan does have a air of danger around him, even if he isn't going to be a direct threat to Kirk after a joint capture of Marcus, Khans very presence would be very bad for relations with the Klingons, remember what happened the last time the Klingons found human augments?
I think Khan is what Nero could have been in the first film had all his character scenes not been cut.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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...which is what I said.
Look, sexiness is aaaaall about the attitude. Why is the Borg Queen hot while the objectively more aesthetic love interest from Insurrection is boring? Attitude. And in the Borg Queen's case, a really good TRIBBLE act.
Zoe Saldana's Uhura shows personality and does badass things like trying to negotiate with Klingons whose planet she's landed on illegally. (note: badass, not intelligent or sensible)
Alice Eve's whatsherface is...well, she's a science something or other and has an underwear scene. Really, it's pathetic. Oh, and Khan beats her up on her daddy's ship and we don't see her for the rest of the movie.
I agree, Kirk might not have been able to hurt him, but, he still could have stopped him from hitting him (technically, Kirk was assaulting a prisoner...) I always felt he was mocking Kirk's lack of self-control, not his inferior Humanity...
Sorry, I've lost you there... I never criticised Janeway for not having measures against the Borg, but for being an inconsistently written character... As before, Khan gave Kirk 'The Nod' that they were bros, Kirk had no need to order Scotty to put him down. Plot Necessity has a lot to answer for in that film...
No... Saldana's Nuhura is just a stereotypical snarky b**ch (and as an actress, she's capable of much more) I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole... Alice Eve's Carol Marcus on the other hand... I would not say no to her... :P
It was when Spock confronted Khan over the Viewscreen. He didn't outright say it, but he did not deny it and certainly inferred that it was true.
Didn't you? Huh, sorry. Must have confused you with someone else.
And, again, Kirk knew that Khan would likely kill Marcus no matter what happened. Ordering Scotty to stun him was the responsible thing to do to ensure that a prisoner is not executed without endangering anyone else. Personally, I think Kirk exercised a great deal of restraint for not shooting Marcus himself.
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Huh, we found something you and Worffan disagree on.
And of course it's about your taste in women :rolleyes:.
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TEHO. I found Carol Marcus to be bland and something of a misogynistic fainting daisy myself.