You are in a game where your vessel casually and constantly exceeds the speed of light as part of it's primary function. It's not a war ship. It's not an exploration ship. It's not even a personnel transport. It is a machine that warps space and violates reason to move between stars. The rest of the ship;the sensors, the transporters, the shields and the weapons; all of it is used when you reach your destination. All of which, would be moot if it didn't have a bit of fiction.
Also, if you had finished the T5 Dyson Rep before you started "A Step Between Stars", you would know that the sphere were designed by the Iconians to be mobile bases, using Omega Particles to fuel the jump. And last time they did it, it flooded the Solanae sphere with tetryon radiation and forced the Iconians and the Clickers to retreat into subspace.
In fiction, you are allowed to break any rules, or make any rules as you can, so long as you are consistent with them. You can have ships that casually exceed C as if it was just a sign post. But you should have rules about it, such as it requires a warp core and nacelles, it uses dilithium as a catalyst and matter/antimatter for fuel. And the higher speeds mean faster trips, but more power and stress on the vessel. And in TNG and beyond, the warp scale was logarithmic, capping out at 10. All of these are accepted rules within Trek lore.
Now As long as those rules are followed, you can have your audience suspend disbelief about the actual physics of it, because you bring your own. However, if you break one of those rules... such as having a ship jettison its warp core and then proceed to warp to another star system within a lifetime, You will break a rule and it will be seen as impossible and hurt your credit as a writer.
All of that being said, what are our rules about a Dyson Sphere? We have the following
1) They are created under the guidance of the Iconians.
2) The Iconians are super advance and built Gateways that instantaneously transport small objects anywhere within the galaxy.
3) They generate Omega Particles by the bucket load.
4) Omega Particles, even in small amounts, are super dense, and unstable forms of energy.
5) Omega Particles interact with subspace.
6) Subspace provides a shortcut between any two points in real space.
7) In Classic physics and in Wapr Physics it seems, the more mass you are moving over a distance requires more energy.
8) Also, the longer you have to go requires more energy.
Therefore, we have a power source (Omega Particles), reasonable level of technology and proof of it. (Iconians gateways, being as commonplace as they were in the Iconian Empire, are still baffling to Federation Scientist.) And we already have seen some really goofy stuff from the Iconians (Ships that fade into subspace, Gateways, the Sphere technology).
More than enough reasonable proof that the Spheres can and will be able to move within trek lore.
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what the fork??? i just played it, because i didn't have time last week, and i can't believe what i heard. a dyson sphere can't be moved, there's just no way. i don't care how much energy you've got, it just ain't happening. okay maybe Q, but that's the only way.
star trek is sci-fi, not fantasy. you can't just make something like that happen just because it would be cool. this is why sci-fi tv shows have science advisors. cryptic, you are in desperate need of a good trek advisor. please... you need someone to stop you from doing ridiculous things like this.
am i not crazy being irked about this, or is everyone else swallowing it?
I could believe it to an extent. Distance may be more of an illusion than you believe it to be in reality.
I would wonder if the entire mass of the object could not simply stop interacting with the Higgs field, become energy, relocate, and then interact with it again becoming matter.
Furthermore, with Entanglement and such it may be possible to literally teleport objects.
Or you could simply fold massive amounts of space move the sphere from one fold to the other, and then let space revert. (What that would do to space in general is hard to say but then Warp Drive should be as much a weapon as a means of propulsion.)
An almost impossible structure to begin with, using a made up energy particle, that manipulates sub space, which is also made up, and you think its impossible to the point where it bothers you?
This is in a reality were a life form such as Q can snap his fingers and make it work, but an alien race using advanced technology, possibly millions of years beyond us can't do the same thing?
Wow, that's exhaustive. I guess, if your definition of "better research" is one sentence.
Yeah, you're right, I edited the Wikipedia page for science fiction, and I'm going to change it back later, when everyone forgets about this thread. Quit being a hammerhead.
You are the one who tried to define Dyson Spheres as not being science fiction. :P
Civilizations capable of moving star systems.... Dyson's Spheres.... Dinosaurs in space.... Seriously Cryptic your messing up my ignorant perception of the Star Trek universe by incorporating elements that have been used in it before in past series that I am either ignorant of or have forgotten and thus meddling with my false personal perception of this franchise. I demand you stop immediately!
Why does their need to be an explanation about how it works? This falls under "Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." After all, try explaining how TV works to someone from the 1500s. There might be a few people like Da Vinci that could understand it, but the rest would believe it to be magic. Therefore, there is obviously stuff that we can't understand and Starfleet can't understand in Star Trek and won't be able to understand for hundreds of year.
No, I'm the one that said Dyson Sphere's are a stupid, ill-conceived idea, and using established scientific principles, here's why. I'm sorry it got your panties in a bunch. Your sci-fi appetites are obviously more suited to the fantastical, space magic, variety, than mine.
And now you're being insulting again....
What does that have to do with, well, anything? Aside from your standard canned "I love Star Trek" reason why are you raving about realism? Seriously.... when has Star Trek ever let that get in the way of a good story?
Starkaos is right. Whether Dyson spheres are plausible is something completely outside our ability to comprehend. Thus trying to define them as realistic or unrealistic is impossible.
I have no problem with the sphere moving itself. I see it as doing so like the FTL drives in Battlestar Galactica. A flash of light and POOF! What concerns me is (my first question at the start of the mission was does the sphere take the star with it when it jumps. Jenolan sphere answered that) what happens if the sphere jumps near an existing star system? Do the stars combine? Do we get a Binary Dyson sphere? What will that do to the surface parts of the sphere? What if the hull of the sphere intersects a planet when it jumps? Does it just cut through a planet, forcing it to stop dead in it's orbit, with the sphere going right through the planet crust/core? Do those halfs get cut through completely and just tumble away, a dead husk?
A jumping Dyson sphere could be the greatest singular threat to a star system since the Trilithium warhead!
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A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Nah. Death Stars and Dyson Spheres are very different.
You know one of the major differences between Star Wars and Star Trek is right?
One of them has technobabble.
Both of them have techno-babble.... but ST certainly does have more of it. SW doesn't have it simply because they hardly never really attempt to explain how anything works... it just, works.
what the fork??? i just played it, because i didn't have time last week, and i can't believe what i heard. a dyson sphere can't be moved, there's just no way. i don't care how much energy you've got, it just ain't happening. okay maybe Q, but that's the only way.
You don't know that. In fact, one did, which automatically proved that claim false.
Wow, that's exhaustive. I guess, if your definition of "better research" is one sentence.
Yeah, you're right, I edited the Wikipedia page for science fiction, and I'm going to change it back later, when everyone forgets about this thread. Quit being a hammerhead.
Well, I am not going to point out flaws in your "well thought out supporting material" (pmsl) then go and do all the work for you.
You want to make a point using real world source material, then at least have the decency to use a credible source and not insult use with user made wiki articles.
I have no problem with the sphere moving itself. I see it as doing so like the FTL drives in Battlestar Galactica. A flash of light and POOF! What concerns me is (my first question at the start of the mission was does the sphere take the star with it when it jumps. Jenolan sphere answered that) what happens if the sphere jumps near an existing star system? Do the stars combine? Do we get a Binary Dyson sphere? What will that do to the surface parts of the sphere? What if the hull of the sphere intersects a planet when it jumps? Does it just cut through a planet, forcing it to stop dead in it's orbit, with the sphere going right through the planet crust/core? Do those halfs get cut through completely and just tumble away, a dead husk?
A jumping Dyson sphere could be the greatest singular threat to a star system since the Trilithium warhead!
Right because primitive mammal monkeys (that's us) can build an isolinear computer that can prevent flying a spaceship into planets and stars but a Type 1/2/3 civilization (whatever the Iconians count as) can't make a computer that will make sure their space-folding dyson sphere won't come out in the middle of a solar system.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
Right because primitive mammal monkeys (that's us) can build an isolinear computer that can prevent flying a spaceship into planets and stars but a Type 1/2/3 civilization (whatever the Iconians count as) can't make a computer that will make sure their space-folding dyson sphere won't come out in the middle of a solar system.
Computers glitch and malfunction. Especially old ones that have been abandoned and not had maintanence. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just wondering what would happen if it did. Worst case scenario type deal.
And where did it say Iconians built the spheres? Or at least the jump engines?
And for that matter, how many times did the Enterprise run into a ship that had got into trouble because they flew into something they shouldn't, despite having these fancy isolinear computers? Heck, even the Enterprise did that once or twice.
*******************************************
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Computers glitch and malfunction. Especially old ones that have been abandoned and not had maintanence. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just wondering what would happen if it did. Worst case scenario type deal.
Ah, hypothetically speaking.. really bad stuff happens. lol. Personally I like the description of what happens in the Starfire novels when two pieces of matter (usually ships) interpenetrate when coming out of a warp point (wormhole):
When two solid objects tried to resume existence in the same volume, the result was of an intensity to stress the very fabric of space/time. Indeed, no one really knew precisely what happened?the phenomenon had never been studied closely enough, and doubtless never would be.
In other words, about the most violent conversion of matter to energy you can imagine short of omega molecules going critical, but the sphere is full of omega molecules and at least some of them are probably not consumed by the jump so, the worst explosion possible.
Although there is existing precedent in Trek for what happens when one solid object emerges inside of another solid object. The answer is "not much." http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phasing_cloak
But if we assume no space-time-annihilating interpenetrations occur (maybe a massive deflector grid pushes everything out of the way before it appears, or maybe the fold sucks anything nearby into it) there are still gravity effects. If it comes out near a star system you can probably expect everything to get tugged in its direction, earthquakes, all kinds of tidal and weather phenomena etc as orbits shift and all. Even worse if it comes out inside the star system itself.
However even at orbital velocities it will take days/weeks/months/years for anything to crash into it unless it reappears very close to an object.
And for that matter, how many times did the Enterprise run into a ship that had got into trouble because they flew into something they shouldn't, despite having these fancy isolinear computers? Heck, even the Enterprise did that once or twice.
Yes but again those ships in trouble did not belong to a type 1/2/3 civilization. In theory it should be impossible for the unfathomably-advanced self-maintaining technology of such a civilization to malfunction.
So I suppose that begs the question of if they have any systems in place for such an emergency. I doubt it as they would want it to either abort the fold jump in the first place or only come out in the gaps between star systems, so why have such systems for redirecting the orbit of a planet that's on a collision course? Either way though, given the amount of time it would take for a collision, they might have enough time to just do another fold jump and leave, or they'd have enough time to pull a treknobabble and save the day for themselves considering their mastery of controlling the fabric of space-time.
Of course as depicted in the game something HAS gone wrong with their technology which makes them not-infallible (whether that's realistic or not can be debated until the cows come home) so who knows.
Nitpicking is a time-honored tradition of science fiction. Asking your readers not to worry about the "little things" is like asking a dog not to sniff at people's crotches. If there's something that appears to violate natural laws, then you can expect someone's going to point it out. That's just the way things are.
And if you honestly, believe that they should have a place in this game, then you should also have no objections to things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and/or the Wicked Witch of the West being seriously portrayed as empirical facts in STO.
This is an utterly foolish thing to say in a universe where Q is a thing who toys with mortals on a constant basis.
Your post and assertations are complete rubbish. You reject the reality presented in the shows and substitute what you want or what you think is realistic and malign STO's developers for going their own path with it. In the shows dyson spheres are a thing. Freeman Dyson is not a fan of them but who cares, they are in the show, and the show is complete and utter fantasy from the get go.
And just what is your point? That *you* could do better? just shut up.
See, that's the thing. It's not a good story. STO hasn't had a good story since the Klingon augment arc.
You might not be able to comprehend them. I understand them very well. They're complete, and utter rubbish extrapolated from a scientific theory of a 20th century human physicist, who no longer wants his name associated with them. And if you honestly, believe that they should have a place in this game, then you should also have no objections to things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and/or the Wicked Witch of the West being seriously portrayed as empirical facts in STO.
In other words you have no idea what you're talking about, and should take teknesia's advice on reading the Ringworld series by Larry Niven.
See, that's the thing. It's not a good story. STO hasn't had a good story since the Klingon augment arc.
You might not be able to comprehend them. I understand them very well. They're complete, and utter rubbish extrapolated from a scientific theory of a 20th century human physicist, who no longer wants his name associated with them. And if you honestly, believe that they should have a place in this game, then you should also have no objections to things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and/or the Wicked Witch of the West being seriously portrayed as empirical facts in STO.
Obviously you don't understand them if you think that they are complete rubbish. Some people thrive on trying to make the impossible possible. Traveling to the moon was complete rubbish 300 years ago and now it is an accepted fact. Lunar Tourism might be possible in our lifetime, but it will happen in our children's or grandchildren's lifetime. It is solving impossible tasks like how to build a Dyson Sphere or in other words, to go beyond our limits that makes humans a worthwhile race. Without overcoming these challenges, then there is no real difference between us and animals. After all, this is one of the major points of Star Trek. The Federation solved numerous impossible challenges to get to the point where they are right now.
Dyson Spheres are a part of Star Trek. Since it is a fictional show Star Trek does not have to fall the same rules that our universe has to follow. If a race is capable of building a Dyson Sphere, then it is capable of solving any problem that might arise. Star Trek contains artificial gravity, replicators, and forcefields. These three technologies would certainly help in making Dyson Spheres almost a possibility. Obviously there some technologies and logistics that are missing in Star Trek for the Federation to create a Dyson Sphere
I think you mean I reject the fiction presented in the shows, right? If that's the case, then yes, some of it I do. I reject the more fantastical elements, because I prefer my Trek to be believable and governed by the physics that I know. It's my choice to accept or reject whatever ideas I please, whether it makes you feel bad or not. It might not seem fair to you, but that's just how life is kiddo, and the quicker you come to terms with it the easier it will be for you. If you want to regard the show as "utter fantasy", then why have starships at all? Let's just have people flying through space on magic carpets, and flying unicorns battling Rumpelstiltskin, and the Queen of Hearts for control of the Turkey Stuffing Mines?
First, I apologize for my previous post and applaud your restraint against my stupidly ridiculous internet rage. I don't know you and i obviously have no right to tell you to shut up or how to think. So again, apologies.
That said, well your post is basically a slippery slope fallacy. Ultimately this argument is pretty silly because space magic, technobabble, canon of the week and all this goes right back to the shows themselves. world war 3 happened and an unscientific hobo discovered warp travel when a crew of a federation ship went back in time and kinda helped him out while also saving the world from a really early borg invasion. Does that sound plausible? realistic? Of course not. More holes than swiss cheese but it is what it is... fiction.
Comments
You are in a game where your vessel casually and constantly exceeds the speed of light as part of it's primary function. It's not a war ship. It's not an exploration ship. It's not even a personnel transport. It is a machine that warps space and violates reason to move between stars. The rest of the ship;the sensors, the transporters, the shields and the weapons; all of it is used when you reach your destination. All of which, would be moot if it didn't have a bit of fiction.
Also, if you had finished the T5 Dyson Rep before you started "A Step Between Stars", you would know that the sphere were designed by the Iconians to be mobile bases, using Omega Particles to fuel the jump. And last time they did it, it flooded the Solanae sphere with tetryon radiation and forced the Iconians and the Clickers to retreat into subspace.
In fiction, you are allowed to break any rules, or make any rules as you can, so long as you are consistent with them. You can have ships that casually exceed C as if it was just a sign post. But you should have rules about it, such as it requires a warp core and nacelles, it uses dilithium as a catalyst and matter/antimatter for fuel. And the higher speeds mean faster trips, but more power and stress on the vessel. And in TNG and beyond, the warp scale was logarithmic, capping out at 10. All of these are accepted rules within Trek lore.
Now As long as those rules are followed, you can have your audience suspend disbelief about the actual physics of it, because you bring your own. However, if you break one of those rules... such as having a ship jettison its warp core and then proceed to warp to another star system within a lifetime, You will break a rule and it will be seen as impossible and hurt your credit as a writer.
All of that being said, what are our rules about a Dyson Sphere? We have the following
1) They are created under the guidance of the Iconians.
2) The Iconians are super advance and built Gateways that instantaneously transport small objects anywhere within the galaxy.
3) They generate Omega Particles by the bucket load.
4) Omega Particles, even in small amounts, are super dense, and unstable forms of energy.
5) Omega Particles interact with subspace.
6) Subspace provides a shortcut between any two points in real space.
7) In Classic physics and in Wapr Physics it seems, the more mass you are moving over a distance requires more energy.
8) Also, the longer you have to go requires more energy.
Therefore, we have a power source (Omega Particles), reasonable level of technology and proof of it. (Iconians gateways, being as commonplace as they were in the Iconian Empire, are still baffling to Federation Scientist.) And we already have seen some really goofy stuff from the Iconians (Ships that fade into subspace, Gateways, the Sphere technology).
More than enough reasonable proof that the Spheres can and will be able to move within trek lore.
I could believe it to an extent. Distance may be more of an illusion than you believe it to be in reality.
I would wonder if the entire mass of the object could not simply stop interacting with the Higgs field, become energy, relocate, and then interact with it again becoming matter.
Furthermore, with Entanglement and such it may be possible to literally teleport objects.
Or you could simply fold massive amounts of space move the sphere from one fold to the other, and then let space revert. (What that would do to space in general is hard to say but then Warp Drive should be as much a weapon as a means of propulsion.)
This is in a reality were a life form such as Q can snap his fingers and make it work, but an alien race using advanced technology, possibly millions of years beyond us can't do the same thing?
So snappy fingers, yes. Made up technology, no.
My character Tsin'xing
Apology accepted.
The Sorting hat still thinks you would be in Ravenclaw though.
Nah. Death Stars and Dyson Spheres are very different.
You know one of the major differences between Star Wars and Star Trek is right?
One of them has technobabble.
What does that have to do with, well, anything? Aside from your standard canned "I love Star Trek" reason why are you raving about realism? Seriously.... when has Star Trek ever let that get in the way of a good story?
Starkaos is right. Whether Dyson spheres are plausible is something completely outside our ability to comprehend. Thus trying to define them as realistic or unrealistic is impossible.
My character Tsin'xing
A jumping Dyson sphere could be the greatest singular threat to a star system since the Trilithium warhead!
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
Both of them have techno-babble.... but ST certainly does have more of it. SW doesn't have it simply because they hardly never really attempt to explain how anything works... it just, works.
And fiction=fantasy
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Well, I am not going to point out flaws in your "well thought out supporting material" (pmsl) then go and do all the work for you.
You want to make a point using real world source material, then at least have the decency to use a credible source and not insult use with user made wiki articles.
Right because primitive mammal monkeys (that's us) can build an isolinear computer that can prevent flying a spaceship into planets and stars but a Type 1/2/3 civilization (whatever the Iconians count as) can't make a computer that will make sure their space-folding dyson sphere won't come out in the middle of a solar system.
Dang someone beat me to it. :P
I think some expanded universe crud said it was powered by a crystal housing the souls of dead Jedi or something equally stupid.
Joined January 2009
Computers glitch and malfunction. Especially old ones that have been abandoned and not had maintanence. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just wondering what would happen if it did. Worst case scenario type deal.
And where did it say Iconians built the spheres? Or at least the jump engines?
And for that matter, how many times did the Enterprise run into a ship that had got into trouble because they flew into something they shouldn't, despite having these fancy isolinear computers? Heck, even the Enterprise did that once or twice.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
It's hinted at constantly. Everything related to the spheres and gateways is directly or indirectly built by or serves the Iconians.
Ah, hypothetically speaking.. really bad stuff happens. lol. Personally I like the description of what happens in the Starfire novels when two pieces of matter (usually ships) interpenetrate when coming out of a warp point (wormhole):
In other words, about the most violent conversion of matter to energy you can imagine short of omega molecules going critical, but the sphere is full of omega molecules and at least some of them are probably not consumed by the jump so, the worst explosion possible.
Although there is existing precedent in Trek for what happens when one solid object emerges inside of another solid object. The answer is "not much."
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phasing_cloak
But if we assume no space-time-annihilating interpenetrations occur (maybe a massive deflector grid pushes everything out of the way before it appears, or maybe the fold sucks anything nearby into it) there are still gravity effects. If it comes out near a star system you can probably expect everything to get tugged in its direction, earthquakes, all kinds of tidal and weather phenomena etc as orbits shift and all. Even worse if it comes out inside the star system itself.
However even at orbital velocities it will take days/weeks/months/years for anything to crash into it unless it reappears very close to an object.
Yes but again those ships in trouble did not belong to a type 1/2/3 civilization. In theory it should be impossible for the unfathomably-advanced self-maintaining technology of such a civilization to malfunction.
So I suppose that begs the question of if they have any systems in place for such an emergency. I doubt it as they would want it to either abort the fold jump in the first place or only come out in the gaps between star systems, so why have such systems for redirecting the orbit of a planet that's on a collision course? Either way though, given the amount of time it would take for a collision, they might have enough time to just do another fold jump and leave, or they'd have enough time to pull a treknobabble and save the day for themselves considering their mastery of controlling the fabric of space-time.
Of course as depicted in the game something HAS gone wrong with their technology which makes them not-infallible (whether that's realistic or not can be debated until the cows come home) so who knows.
Joined January 2009
This is an utterly foolish thing to say in a universe where Q is a thing who toys with mortals on a constant basis.
Your post and assertations are complete rubbish. You reject the reality presented in the shows and substitute what you want or what you think is realistic and malign STO's developers for going their own path with it. In the shows dyson spheres are a thing. Freeman Dyson is not a fan of them but who cares, they are in the show, and the show is complete and utter fantasy from the get go.
And just what is your point? That *you* could do better? just shut up.
My character Tsin'xing
Obviously you don't understand them if you think that they are complete rubbish. Some people thrive on trying to make the impossible possible. Traveling to the moon was complete rubbish 300 years ago and now it is an accepted fact. Lunar Tourism might be possible in our lifetime, but it will happen in our children's or grandchildren's lifetime. It is solving impossible tasks like how to build a Dyson Sphere or in other words, to go beyond our limits that makes humans a worthwhile race. Without overcoming these challenges, then there is no real difference between us and animals. After all, this is one of the major points of Star Trek. The Federation solved numerous impossible challenges to get to the point where they are right now.
Dyson Spheres are a part of Star Trek. Since it is a fictional show Star Trek does not have to fall the same rules that our universe has to follow. If a race is capable of building a Dyson Sphere, then it is capable of solving any problem that might arise. Star Trek contains artificial gravity, replicators, and forcefields. These three technologies would certainly help in making Dyson Spheres almost a possibility. Obviously there some technologies and logistics that are missing in Star Trek for the Federation to create a Dyson Sphere
First, I apologize for my previous post and applaud your restraint against my stupidly ridiculous internet rage. I don't know you and i obviously have no right to tell you to shut up or how to think. So again, apologies.
That said, well your post is basically a slippery slope fallacy. Ultimately this argument is pretty silly because space magic, technobabble, canon of the week and all this goes right back to the shows themselves. world war 3 happened and an unscientific hobo discovered warp travel when a crew of a federation ship went back in time and kinda helped him out while also saving the world from a really early borg invasion. Does that sound plausible? realistic? Of course not. More holes than swiss cheese but it is what it is... fiction.
Are you, any of you, physicists by training or craft? As in, did you study physics, or do you work in physics?