...well if this is only a opinion based on experience, i'm quite sure u can point me to that particular mission/doffing/whatever during levelling ur first char where u learned anything about game-mechanics.
u did found some? (really?) be glad and assured, there are not many with u... f.e. in the first place i flew around for several weeks without autofire switched on (until i found a hint at the forum) ....
...so.... plz just tell me where in my post i did say something like "yay, how good/important am i/we, inferior are <fill in group u think i wanted to bash>" (may sto-player fits in here?! )....
i just supported a point which is obviously to everyone who's willing to take a look behind the curtain. not only pvp'ers, but hc-pve'ers as well.
....just find one and ask about ingame learning-progression and where u have to go for.
...the one who says: "just play the game, u'll learn everything that way" lies.
that simple. it's the fleets, the forums, bootcamp, .....
indeed u just carry the impression of prejudices against "us"...
to conclude it: u seem to have a problem with the attitude of pvp'ers and tried to show that by taking my post as example.
sorry sir, u just bit ur own leg...
Spamming smilies, saying passive aggressive "sorry, but" statements when you are anything but sorry but perhaps should be (not to mention the Reddit warrior "really? Really?" memetic nonsense), and writing with pretentious ellipses throughout isn't doing your PVP friends any favors and isn't going to help win any arguments here.
It just looks like a lot of bluster and self-importance. Normal for zone chat in just about all PVP matches last I checked, but again, PVP is on the decline, less and less of us care about it, and the burden is on YOU to convince anyone otherwise.
Sure there are some nice pvpers the problem is that from most overs experience is that MOST are bad its not one bad apple spoils the bunch its one good apple in a bad bunch.
Not everyone is a glutton for punishment. I, for one, take it as a challenge to log a kill or two and see the match through when I'm grouped with a bunch of free Obelisks and a couple of elitist teammates ragequit at the beginnning of the match.
So go ahead and spawn camp me with your gravity well/warp plasma spam and your DEM FAW Scimitars. Perhaps today IS a good day to die!
I am starting to understand that the majority of the PVE community simply dislike the pvp players attitudes and play style. I also agree. The total domination tactics and lack of sportsmanship has hurt the basic STO death match style pvp. I wonder how we can fix that.
What is certain 'spam' 'game breaking' abilities where less powerful in a pvp match but retained their power in pve? What if for every X kills that a team is behind they get an additional 10% damage, healing, and HP?
There are many ways to improve PvP, but most if not all are dismissed by both communities, PvE and PvP aswell. PvE side will want more accesible PvP system, more relaxed one, while the PvP side will cry that its made too easy and demand harder PvP system and soo on. Most PvP community doenst want to learn anything new, yet they demand the PvE community to learn... So in the end it will go nowhere.
Its the same thing that happends when its introduced an item or a console that its fairly usefull and introduces new mechanic. Becouse they cant adapt to it or not even trying to develop tactics to includ this new thing, PvP communitty will cry that its op and it gets nerfed to useless even for PvE...
But there are alot of things to help PvP, outside changing any system.
The foundry could be a great source for PvP content if Cryptic would allow for authors to make PvP maps. I remember like 10 or more years ago, I enjoyed old school badass games like Quake 2 and 3, Unreal or Counter Strike wich were very popular. And they had map editors, so alot of maps were created by the community and keept the games interesting and popular.
Also maybe allow a TvT scheduled event, not 1vs1 teams, but 2vs2 or even 4vs4 teams, with no premade, just randomized selection. I remember awhile ago when playing lineage2, on alot of private PvP servers there were these automatic events, and it atracted alot of ppl. And I dont thing was so hard to code, since a few amator coders could do it then a pro dev team shouldnt have any problem.
Another way would be to introduce a CP (combat points) bar over the health/shield bar that only works in PvP. In some games this was even bigger 2 or 3 times then health bar, so the fights to last longer, to avoind instant kills or to allow some1 to escape if ganked. But I think this will be highly dismissed by PvP community cuz of the BoPs BO Alphas.
PvE side will want more accesible PvP system, more relaxed one, while the PvP side will cry that its made too easy and demand harder PvP system and soo on. Most PvP community doenst want to learn anything new, yet they demand the PvE community to learn...
The foundry could be a great source for PvP content if Cryptic would allow for authors to make PvP maps.
Also maybe allow a TvT scheduled event, not 1vs1 teams, but 2vs2 or even 4vs4 teams, with no premade, just randomized selection. I remember awhile ago when playing lineage2, on alot of private PvP servers there were these automatic events, and it atracted alot of ppl.
Another way would be to introduce a CP (combat points) bar over the health/shield bar that only works in PvP.
I haven't read the whole thread so please excuse if anything has been mentioned before.
There are several reasons i don't do PvP anymore.
The first one is the people involved. Serioulsy even if it's a computer game fighting each other brings out the worst of people (i don't want to get more specific, it would go beyond the scope of this thread).
Second, teamwork. I must say i am not a team player and i do not wan't to become one, since you have to use some sort of voice chat which i absolutely hate. I rather be on my own.
Third, min-maxing. I don't like it. I feel that it is totally unsatisfying to develop a character (or ship in this case) that only can do either tank (and heal others) or be a glass cannon.
These are just the first things that come to my mind, but there are more than enough other things i don't like about PvP.
Yeah i know STO is a MMO... blah blah blah... i know that. Belive me if there where some other alternative Star Trek game with ground/space aspect, growing content and customization, i would switch to that game and never even consider to come back to STO.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
LOL best way to describe PvP in this game is soft. You go in and there is no risk, no gain, no point
Anyone who played old muds where you go in with the risk of loosing all your gear know what I am talking about Plus the good pvp'rs have come and gone I've seen a lot of these "vocal" people and they don't see an elite player explode unless its something like kerrat with 30 people all targeting one person.
I do not care for MMO pvp. I can take or leave the generic pvp games, like call of duty, where "level" and "gear" are less critical than reflexes and skill. Yes, you unlock some advantages, but its NOTHING like a $500 character in STO with the best ship, best BOs, and best item in every slot.
Here, gear >>>>>>>>>>> skill. If you have all the gear, yes you need some skill ON TOP of that, absolutely. But if you do not have the gear, no matter how good you are, you can't even scratch the top guys. I went up against a guy in my fleet with everything I have as a tactical escort player and could not even reduce his shields enough to notice, its about like what a single npc scorp fighter can do to ME.
Then there are my general issues with pvp, which can be boiled down to player attitude. Not having done any of it here, I can't say that STO is not some awesome game immune to this but "in general" pvp people are rude and expect the guy who has played a week to know every map 100%, have memorized every location's name and associated acronym, and have the top gear, and understand the team's strategy. Everyone is expected to be an instant expert, in other words. There are also a great many cheaters who use third party programs to enhance their ability, exploit game bugs, or whatever else they can get away with.
So, what it comes down to is that while I used to enjoy casual pvp, there is no such thing anymore. Too many uptight jerks for me to enjoy it.
Let's forget about the nasty attitudes of many pvp players and talk about more ways to make pvp more enjoyable for casual players.
Uh...the attitudes are what repels the non-PvP-fascinated players, so any attempt to make it more palatable to non-PvP-fascinated players either addresses the nasty attitudes or becomes just another attempt on the "failure" pile.
But if you want to try and solve a problem by ignoring it, feel free.
Will some try to exploit the system? Undoubtedly. However, it would actually be a fair amount of work involving losing on purpose to decrease the k/dr.
Somehow I doubt enough players will want to lose on purpose in order to gank people to seriously distort the rankings.
But losing on purpose is a non-issue when they can just create an alt.
Or are we going to tie one's rating to one's @-handle (which carries its own issues)?
you can dislike pvp because you dislike the competitive aspect, but if you do nothing but complain about people not going easy on you, people playing to their ships strengths, making every excuse in the book about how these other players are doing these legitimate things within the system, its you that are insufficient. be it gear deficient, experience deficient, or some of the most basic build information deficient, its the refusal to do better or try to learn what your doing wrong, to lash out at everyone else playing so 'unfairly' to you.
if everyone tried to attain a very basic level of competence, it wouldn't mater if you were up against an organized team, you would know what to do. this was typical of kdf pvp'ers, more back in the day then now, it didn't mater if they faced a premade, individually they knew what to do, had good builds, and new how to work like a team. if most pve'ers really gave pvp an honest shot, and not just believe all the horror stories, it would do wonders for thier pve performance too. proboly shave hours off your weekly grind. you will proboly see why we 'talk down' pve too.
Yes, of course, it's that we're all sooooo much lesser than you and your evolved-past-Homo-Sapiens brethren that we're jealous. :rolleyes:
Thank you for providing us a perfect example of why more people don't PvP: Because of people like you.
Now where's the Ignore function, so I don't have to listen to this pretentious TRIBBLE drone on about how he's a legend in his own mind and we're all soooo inferior?
I am starting to understand that the majority of the PVE community simply dislike the pvp players attitudes and play style. I also agree.
To be specific, a majority of PvE based posters on this thread.
PvE and PvP require different mentalities. Not saying one is better than the other, but they are different.
The total domination tactics and lack of sportsmanship has hurt the basic STO death match style pvp. I wonder how we can fix that.
If you're going to play competitively, then you have to accept that your opponents are actually trying.
That said, there is a clear line between fiercely competitive and bad sportmanship.
I don't think this issue is specifically an STO problem. In FPS this would be an argument about tea-bagging, in cricket sledging.....
In my view this is a very big issue around the idea that winning at all costs is not the same as playing competitively. Too often these ideas are conflated.
Winning at all costs contains within it the idea that breaking rules is not a bad act per se, unless you get caught.
Playing competitively has respect for the rules and, usually by extension, respect for your opponent.
What is certain 'spam' 'game breaking' abilities where less powerful in a pvp match but retained their power in pve? What if for every X kills that a team is behind they get an additional 10% damage, healing, and HP?
Many powers already do have diminished effects against players, as opposed to NPCs. Usually placate effects lasting less time.
However, in this respect I'm not so sure.
If anything I'd remove that softening of effect against players.
If we're looking to balance PvP, and I think we do, nerfing powers doesnt seem to me to be the best way.
Instead, I'd be looking at some form of stat based match making.
Or, failing that, the ability to set parameters on, at least, private PvP matches.
So, no equipment above white mk X, or no escorts, or even mismatched sides (allow one player to take on five).
However, nerfing abilities should always be a regretfully taken last resort.
at least half of the periodic new additions to the game are directly pvp focused, and have no reliance what so ever when your fighting npcs.
Keep this delusion in mind when replying, so you've got an idea the kind of "logic" you're up against. Mostly logic to the tune of "Stop boring me with facts, I've made up my mind."
And if we think there's no ego on the PvP side, here's Sheldon Cooper to tell us how if we're not PvP addicts, we're "having fun wrong":
the link in my sig is my attempt to guid anyone who wants to really have fun in this game.
No, no pretentious asshattery from people with smug superiority complexes (and a very selective grasp of reality) here, right? :rolleyes:
(sidenote: dontdrinkimshoot is actually a helpful person, he has taken the time to write some guides to help the pvp community understand game mechanics and how to be a better PvP pilot).
Here's what I take away from that: "dontdrunkimshoot is cool if you're a cool PvP insider, if you're not then you can count on him to talk down to you because you're just one of those failures who refuses to spend hours playing the game the right way, which is to say his way."
...just going by his consistent behavior in this thread, mind you. Maybe when he's not in "troll the inferiors" mode he's different? Not that I care, from where I sit he's still proof of why non-PvPers won't be bothered.
I am starting to understand that the majority of the PVE community simply dislike the pvp players attitudes and play style. I also agree. The total domination tactics and lack of sportsmanship has hurt the basic STO death match style pvp. I wonder how we can fix that.
The only way to fix that is to arrange 1-on-1 sessions between each "bad apple" and Dr. Phil.
Theres simply no reward for pvp other then my own glory of saying yes I won. for some people thats enough but not for me. Ill bring up some FPS games, like halo or COD, I used to play those because If i tried hard enough I could unlock new guns and other things. I played because I considered all the unlocks worth my time and effort for getting my TRIBBLE handed to me over and over. I wanted new guns, armor, perks etc.
Im not saying I want special pvp equipment unlocks in STO pvp, but if they had some sort of reward, something to work towards in Pvp, I wouldnt mind getting my TRIBBLE handed to me in pvp. Theres just nothing to work for, theres nothing in sto pvp that makes me say YES it was totally worth getting the TRIBBLE kicked out of me for such and such accolade/costume unlock/reward of some kind.
lol, there's more of these "Hey PVE'ers why don't you PVP" than there are T5 Connie request threads...
I don't PVP because I don't care for the attitudes of the average PVPer... if you are confused as to why that might be, read the PVP forums section specifically comments directed towards new players, inexperienced players and PVE players in general.
I PvP a lot. Just not in a game that's centered around items, items, more items.
I'm lazy. PvP would require a different boff layout, other doffs and farming for some "must have items". STO is great for some lazy PvE and the social part of mmos.
2. Only those whom love to grind for the most exclusive gear play PVP
3. Their's no ranking system in PVP, therefore a noob who's curious will be thrown into the lion's den with experienced PVP players. Not being able to survive more than 1 minute is enough to turn ANY PVP rookie off.
Those are the reason why I do not PVP.
One day Cryptic will be free from their Perfect World overlord. Until that day comes, they will continue to pamper the whales of this game, and ignore everyone that isn't a whale.
3. PvE is incredibly different than PvP. This does not mean the pvp "experience" is superior to pve and vice versa. I will disagree with "drunk" that PvE dumbs people down. It's casual play and whatever abilities people choose to bring to pve battlefields are fine. As long as it is fun for you, it shouldn't matter that I think I will be able to vaporize you in a matter of seconds facing me with the same build. And that's okay, because both playstyle are very different. It is also true that many pvp builds do not work in pve. And that's okay, because again both playstyle are very different. This is the part "drunk" failed to realize and instead said some very offensive things unfortunately. In case "drunk" is reading my comment, let me remind him that some PvE folks (of premade calibre) queued this one time and rocked the queues and slaughtered pvp veterans for days. In any case, PvP is different that people cannot bring whatever builds they think is "fun". You have to bring specific builds and specific gear to be competitive in PvP. You also have to change your mindset how to play sto, because you're no longer the one individual, you have to play together with the team. This might make people hesitant to engage in PvP activities, because they never had to do that for pve.
dumbed down is the word, because it was the truth for me personally. the only pve that really challenges you that i have found is no win scenario, and trying to do spire perfectly. thats still just mass slaughtering though, thats what your trying to do, out dps long and hard enough. at least spire requires you to fly at top speed from place to place and deal whats there as quickly as possible.
im currently doing mostly grinding these days, running races and leveling rep. this happen every time a new rep comes out, and after i finish it up, boy am i full of bad habits, its a week before im back in top form. from the perspective that pvp is the hardest content, that requires you to use all your ships potential and all your skill, what pve trains you to do is a disservice in the pvp environment, it ends up being so different. it took years of playing to get to were i am now, im only speaking of my own experience. I was dumbed down, I had to unlearn everything and learn it all over again, i was mad at pvp for every reason you guys are. but I got through it, and it was worth it for the fun i can have in pvp now.
those pve'ers that rocked the que were doing what i and many others had been doing solo for years now, kirking, in maxed out DPS beam boats, i just never organized a group of 5 to magnify the effect of FAW, they did that first. it did open the eyes of many vets that rolled thier eyes at my 'lol builds' all this time befor that.
4. Many abilities are not balanced for pvp play and are extremely powerful. "drunk" knows this, I'm not sure why he omitted this fact. They do have counters, but they can be so ineffective as though they weren't even there. PvPers call them cheese and there are some people in the PvP community that love to "spam" the cheese. It can be very unpleasant being the victim of this "cheese" fest. Not everyone does this of course, but if it happens to you, you might start feeling like alt+f4 and proceed to pulling your hair out.
it never came up. pvp has its problems sure, but the answer to counter them is usually to bring your own team. gravity well seemed to be out of control , but after some testing i found just 3 points into inertial dampners all but made you immune to it. the next biggest problem are the FAW boats, but only when there are 3 or more of them on a team. the random scattered damage of FAW stops being harmlessly scattered about once multiple people are using it. everything else can pretty much be countered, if not by you then a heal boat on the team.
There are probably many other minor issues, but I think these 4 points are the flagrant ones.
(sidenote: dontdrinkimshoot is actually a helpful person, he has taken the time to write some guides to help the pvp community understand game mechanics and how to be a better PvP pilot).
i didn't come here to insult, the information im providing is so different from what you believe to be true that it must seem like i am i guess. so many of you are so off base. you think your 1 bad experience is the rule, and you all tell your stores and build up this bubble of loathing, im not doing damage to pvp by being here, that negativity is. bow many are browsing this thread and reading these comments, trying to get a feel for whats true?
to those people, i'll just say im the one that actually pvps every day, and no pve content comes close to matching the fun you can have there in a good match. let me guess, thats an insult to right? not all matches are good, but dont be discouraged, the learning curve is steep, and in a 5v5, 1 poor performance by a single player on your team can turn it into a gank fest, no mater how good the other 4 of you are. as one wise pvper once said, its pvp, someone has to die. dont take it personally, dont be discouraged. give it another shot or form a team on the organized pvp channel. get some fleet mates, get on vent and communicate. you dont automatically win pvp, it takes effort. but your effort is rewarded with a great deal of fun. if it wasn't, why would i waist all this time in this thread?
Yes, of course, it's that we're all sooooo much lesser than you and your evolved-past-Homo-Sapiens brethren that we're jealous. :rolleyes:
Thank you for providing us a perfect example of why more people don't PvP: Because of people like you.
Now where's the Ignore function, so I don't have to listen to this pretentious TRIBBLE drone on about how he's a legend in his own mind and we're all soooo inferior?
wow. apply what same attitude i outlined to anything in life, not something trivial about a game mode in a video game. do you still feel the same way?
Keep this delusion in mind when replying, so you've got an idea the kind of "logic" you're up against. Mostly logic to the tune of "Stop boring me with facts, I've made up my mind."
what, do you think i was talking about content? like the sphere or something? im not going to now, but i might later if i feel like wasting time proving this point, but take a look at the blogs detailing all the new consoles and new doff active roster abilities from the lock boxs, just how many of those have any use against npcs? and how many are tailor made for dealing with other player ships? here's 2 off the top of my head
the scramble sensor doff, that adds cool downs to all the abilities currently running. what possible purpose does this serve in pve?
how about the original black death console? originally anyone stuck in it was totally unable to use any station powers inside it. again, big deal to npcs, that can use maybe 3 abilities every 3 minutes. total i win button in pvp though, were player ships are cycling and activating station powers every 5 seconds. the nerf/buff it got was that it dealt more damage when it exploded, and you could use station powers in it but not fire any weapons. so, good for pvp and pve that fix was.
No, no pretentious asshattery from people with smug superiority complexes (and a very selective grasp of reality) here, right? :rolleyes:
Here's what I take away from that: "dontdrunkimshoot is cool if you're a cool PvP insider, if you're not then you can count on him to talk down to you because you're just one of those failures who refuses to spend hours playing the game the right way, which is to say his way."
...just going by his consistent behavior in this thread, mind you. Maybe when he's not in "troll the inferiors" mode he's different? Not that I care, from where I sit he's still proof of why non-PvPers won't be bothered.
my first post was a reaction to the insidious comments in this thread about pvp. its amazing how defensive and offended you all get when you get the same. id be happy to chat with and offer guidance to anyone that thinks im a just awful lol. i get at least 1 tell every single day from people that said they benefited from the information in the thread, and ive made quite a number of friends that way. some days i spend more time helping people with thier builds pming back and forth then i do playing.
Give it up, DDIS. They will never see your point, because they do not want to. For them, you are just "the evul super mean elitist" to begin with and they will read anything you write from this point of view. And no amount of explaining or pointing to your help threads will change that.
Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
Because Pvp ruins all my good Pve abilities, like that Dyson tier 4 ability.
Dyson Tier 4 Offensive Reputation Passive - Tactical Advantage Fixed a bug that was allowing players that hadn't yet earned "Tactical Advantage" to benefit from the effect when a nearby player was using it.
This ability was always intended to benefit only the owner of the ability.
This change also prevents the bonus from stacking among multiple players that own the ability.
As a side effect of this, it no longer displays a Debuff icon on the target.
Of course, they ruined it...
Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
...you dont like pvp because your not good at it. the pve did you no favors, it did the opposite of prepare you for pvp, it dumber you down. you can blunder through pve no mater what you bring, the only difference is how long it takes to win.
its really, REALLY not that hard to be a competent pvper though. i know the 'pros' look impossibly good compared to what you have ever been able to get out of your ship, but without the right experience, or guidance, its proboly too frustrating to learn the hard way for most people. thus the endless number of threads like this.
the link in my sig is my attempt to guid anyone who wants to really have fun in this game.
being a 'lowly unskilled PVE peasants' is a choice a person can make. me, and many others in the small but actually quite friendly pvp community are more then willing to help shake that description off of anyone who wants to be better. you are the only one keeping yourself a 'lowly unskilled PVE peasants', you are choosing that.
if everyone tried to attain a very basic level of competence, it wouldn't mater if you were up against an organized team
if most pve'ers really gave pvp an honest shot, and not just believe all the horror stories, it would do wonders for thier pve performance too. proboly shave hours off your weekly grind. you will proboly see why we 'talk down' pve too.
most of what you need to get above 'peasant' tier is on the form of 'tribal knowledge'.
"rolleyes" why do i get the feeling that the trash talking doesn't start till after you guys start bombing zone chat first
i didn't come here to insult, the information im providing is so different from what you believe to be true that it must seem like i am i guess. so many of you are so off base.
my first post was a reaction to the insidious comments in this thread about pvp.
Actually the thread wasn't posted in the PvP Forum, and it's Title "To the PVE community, Why don't you PVP?" pretty much say that this isn't about PvP mechanics (which you have repeatedly attempted to derail the thread with, even if it's just the basics).
You speak (whether you know it or not) from a mindset where you are somehow more elite than the poor PvE peasants who just don't understand the game. Your own quotes above bear this out.
This thread is about what are the reasons we (the PvE community) do not currently PvP. Yes, some of those reasons are going to be quite toxic, somewhat angry, but man, that's to be expected. If you are not one of the people being discussed, then you should have let it slide off your back.
The second purpose of the thread, is to try and brainstorm ideas for ways in which we (the more casual PvE player base) can find PvP enjoyable. What things we might be looking for.
NONE of the things you have contributed to the thread have done anything to advance these topics. Instead, with your every elitist, insulting word, you continue to prove one of the reasons most of us DON'T PvP. The attitude and "better than you" BS we have encountered in your elite PvP community that is so above our little "peasant" tier of play.
Now, perhaps you could allow us to get back to actual constructive discussion about how the idea, community and gameplay of PvP can become enjoyable to we poor unelightened peasants.
I know a lot of good reasons not to pvp, but I would like to hear yours.
In space it is hard to defend against the hordes of players abusing g-well, faw, and sensor spam. Worse yet a full premade team of players who do that.
On ground, the pvp players simply have more skill points and traits invested in ground. Worse yet, a 5 man team of players who are ground spec and still feel the need to exploit, run broken sci officers, and cloak gank players with half their skill points invested even though such extreme measures are not called for.
A lone player who enters without a full team of seasoned pvp players is guaranteed a demoralizing and severe loss to a premade team. The chances of encountering these teams are far too high due to the limited number of pvp participants, but it is also the fault of these teams and fleets for running the pve majority out of the Q with their barbaric play style.
Could it be that pvp in this game is not fun and only exists for the sake of existing or feeling hard core? What would it take to get you interested in pvp? I would like to add that players from the pvp minority are not welcome on this thread. It is not for you. This thread is to find the opinions of the casual, pve majority.
I played EVE for a year, no bigger group of a**holes on the planet and never again.....I want to play star trek, not kill other feds in same ships....
When we talk about the attitude of PVPers we are not talking about someone who is fiercely competitive, well equipped and very good at what he or she is doing, winning and being proud of the accomplishment, there is no problem with that as long as this person is a good sport, what we are talking about someone who is rude, condescending, abusive, obnoxious and basically acts like a school yard bully and is a poor sport before and after the fact, not every PVPer is like this but they are are a very large part of this group.
One need only look at the PVP parts of these forums to see examples of the complete and utter disdain with which the PVE community is held by PVPers, after reading through some of the scathing comments in those threads it shouldn't come as a mystery as to why the PVE Community has no interest in PVP, you are your own worst enemies in that respect.
As long as PVPers are going to allow goons to represent you and carry with their behavior unsanctioned you can not expect any changes in how the PVP community is perceived as a whole.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
Actually the thread wasn't posted in the PvP Forum, and it's Title "To the PVE community, Why don't you PVP?" pretty much say that this isn't about PvP mechanics (which you have repeatedly attempted to derail the thread with, even if it's just the basics).
You speak (whether you know it or not) from a mindset where you are somehow more elite than the poor PvE peasants who just don't understand the game. Your own quotes above bear this out.
This thread is about what are the reasons we (the PvE community) do not currently PvP. Yes, some of those reasons are going to be quite toxic, somewhat angry, but man, that's to be expected. If you are not one of the people being discussed, then you should have let it slide off your back.
The second purpose of the thread, is to try and brainstorm ideas for ways in which we (the more casual PvE player base) can find PvP enjoyable. What things we might be looking for.
NONE of the things you have contributed to the thread have done anything to advance these topics. Instead, with your every elitist, insulting word, you continue to prove one of the reasons most of us DON'T PvP. The attitude and "better than you" BS we have encountered in your elite PvP community that is so above our little "peasant" tier of play.
Now, perhaps you could allow us to get back to actual constructive discussion about how the idea, community and gameplay of PvP can become enjoyable to we poor unelightened peasants.
He only has himself and his self-declared elite buddies to blame for being increasingly less and less relevant to this game as a whole.
No one wants to be roflstomped and then told "stop being bad" by snobbish, arrogant kids playing a stupid video game. It's not fun, and so they move on. Games that do PVP well try very carefully to prevent super one sided roflstomps no matter how long the PVPer played, or how geared he is, or what magic super invincible template is all the rage.
Okay, I went ahead and skipped to the end, and sure enough, the PvP crowd showed up in force to demonstrate exactly why I don't PvP. Toxicity, elitism, contempt for anyone having BadWrongFun by not killing each other all the time - the exact issues that have driven me away from PvP in every other MMO I've tried. (That's part of why EvE Online didn't even stay on my hard drive until the end of the trial period - it's almost nothing but PvP, which is kind of what "EvE" stands for.)
I just don't enjoy hanging out with a bunch of Stop Having Fun Guys, is what it all boils down to.
Comments
Spamming smilies, saying passive aggressive "sorry, but" statements when you are anything but sorry but perhaps should be (not to mention the Reddit warrior "really? Really?" memetic nonsense), and writing with pretentious ellipses throughout isn't doing your PVP friends any favors and isn't going to help win any arguments here.
It just looks like a lot of bluster and self-importance. Normal for zone chat in just about all PVP matches last I checked, but again, PVP is on the decline, less and less of us care about it, and the burden is on YOU to convince anyone otherwise.
So far, very poor job.
So go ahead and spawn camp me with your gravity well/warp plasma spam and your DEM FAW Scimitars. Perhaps today IS a good day to die!
What is certain 'spam' 'game breaking' abilities where less powerful in a pvp match but retained their power in pve? What if for every X kills that a team is behind they get an additional 10% damage, healing, and HP?
Visit my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/Akurie369?feature=watch
Captain Bi Shonen's official Thread! http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=22866531#post22866531
There are many ways to improve PvP, but most if not all are dismissed by both communities, PvE and PvP aswell. PvE side will want more accesible PvP system, more relaxed one, while the PvP side will cry that its made too easy and demand harder PvP system and soo on. Most PvP community doenst want to learn anything new, yet they demand the PvE community to learn... So in the end it will go nowhere.
Its the same thing that happends when its introduced an item or a console that its fairly usefull and introduces new mechanic. Becouse they cant adapt to it or not even trying to develop tactics to includ this new thing, PvP communitty will cry that its op and it gets nerfed to useless even for PvE...
But there are alot of things to help PvP, outside changing any system.
The foundry could be a great source for PvP content if Cryptic would allow for authors to make PvP maps. I remember like 10 or more years ago, I enjoyed old school badass games like Quake 2 and 3, Unreal or Counter Strike wich were very popular. And they had map editors, so alot of maps were created by the community and keept the games interesting and popular.
Also maybe allow a TvT scheduled event, not 1vs1 teams, but 2vs2 or even 4vs4 teams, with no premade, just randomized selection. I remember awhile ago when playing lineage2, on alot of private PvP servers there were these automatic events, and it atracted alot of ppl. And I dont thing was so hard to code, since a few amator coders could do it then a pro dev team shouldnt have any problem.
Another way would be to introduce a CP (combat points) bar over the health/shield bar that only works in PvP. In some games this was even bigger 2 or 3 times then health bar, so the fights to last longer, to avoind instant kills or to allow some1 to escape if ganked. But I think this will be highly dismissed by PvP community cuz of the BoPs BO Alphas.
All good ideas.
Visit my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/Akurie369?feature=watch
Captain Bi Shonen's official Thread! http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=22866531#post22866531
Visit my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/Akurie369?feature=watch
Captain Bi Shonen's official Thread! http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=22866531#post22866531
There are several reasons i don't do PvP anymore.
- The first one is the people involved. Serioulsy even if it's a computer game fighting each other brings out the worst of people (i don't want to get more specific, it would go beyond the scope of this thread).
- Second, teamwork. I must say i am not a team player and i do not wan't to become one, since you have to use some sort of voice chat which i absolutely hate. I rather be on my own.
- Third, min-maxing. I don't like it. I feel that it is totally unsatisfying to develop a character (or ship in this case) that only can do either tank (and heal others) or be a glass cannon.
These are just the first things that come to my mind, but there are more than enough other things i don't like about PvP.Yeah i know STO is a MMO... blah blah blah... i know that. Belive me if there where some other alternative Star Trek game with ground/space aspect, growing content and customization, i would switch to that game and never even consider to come back to STO.
Anyone who played old muds where you go in with the risk of loosing all your gear know what I am talking about
Here, gear >>>>>>>>>>> skill. If you have all the gear, yes you need some skill ON TOP of that, absolutely. But if you do not have the gear, no matter how good you are, you can't even scratch the top guys. I went up against a guy in my fleet with everything I have as a tactical escort player and could not even reduce his shields enough to notice, its about like what a single npc scorp fighter can do to ME.
Then there are my general issues with pvp, which can be boiled down to player attitude. Not having done any of it here, I can't say that STO is not some awesome game immune to this but "in general" pvp people are rude and expect the guy who has played a week to know every map 100%, have memorized every location's name and associated acronym, and have the top gear, and understand the team's strategy. Everyone is expected to be an instant expert, in other words. There are also a great many cheaters who use third party programs to enhance their ability, exploit game bugs, or whatever else they can get away with.
So, what it comes down to is that while I used to enjoy casual pvp, there is no such thing anymore. Too many uptight jerks for me to enjoy it.
Uh...the attitudes are what repels the non-PvP-fascinated players, so any attempt to make it more palatable to non-PvP-fascinated players either addresses the nasty attitudes or becomes just another attempt on the "failure" pile.
But if you want to try and solve a problem by ignoring it, feel free.
But losing on purpose is a non-issue when they can just create an alt.
Or are we going to tie one's rating to one's @-handle (which carries its own issues)?
Yes, of course, it's that we're all sooooo much lesser than you and your evolved-past-Homo-Sapiens brethren that we're jealous. :rolleyes:
Thank you for providing us a perfect example of why more people don't PvP: Because of people like you.
Now where's the Ignore function, so I don't have to listen to this pretentious TRIBBLE drone on about how he's a legend in his own mind and we're all soooo inferior?
To be specific, a majority of PvE based posters on this thread.
PvE and PvP require different mentalities. Not saying one is better than the other, but they are different.
If you're going to play competitively, then you have to accept that your opponents are actually trying.
That said, there is a clear line between fiercely competitive and bad sportmanship.
I don't think this issue is specifically an STO problem. In FPS this would be an argument about tea-bagging, in cricket sledging.....
In my view this is a very big issue around the idea that winning at all costs is not the same as playing competitively. Too often these ideas are conflated.
Winning at all costs contains within it the idea that breaking rules is not a bad act per se, unless you get caught.
Playing competitively has respect for the rules and, usually by extension, respect for your opponent.
Many powers already do have diminished effects against players, as opposed to NPCs. Usually placate effects lasting less time.
However, in this respect I'm not so sure.
If anything I'd remove that softening of effect against players.
If we're looking to balance PvP, and I think we do, nerfing powers doesnt seem to me to be the best way.
Instead, I'd be looking at some form of stat based match making.
Or, failing that, the ability to set parameters on, at least, private PvP matches.
So, no equipment above white mk X, or no escorts, or even mismatched sides (allow one player to take on five).
However, nerfing abilities should always be a regretfully taken last resort.
One reading of your posts screams "Exactly!" :rolleyes:
Don't forget the one about how half the development of the game revolved around PvP. :rolleyes:
Keep this delusion in mind when replying, so you've got an idea the kind of "logic" you're up against. Mostly logic to the tune of "Stop boring me with facts, I've made up my mind."
And if we think there's no ego on the PvP side, here's Sheldon Cooper to tell us how if we're not PvP addicts, we're "having fun wrong":
No, no pretentious asshattery from people with smug superiority complexes (and a very selective grasp of reality) here, right? :rolleyes:
Here's what I take away from that: "dontdrunkimshoot is cool if you're a cool PvP insider, if you're not then you can count on him to talk down to you because you're just one of those failures who refuses to spend hours playing the game the right way, which is to say his way."
...just going by his consistent behavior in this thread, mind you. Maybe when he's not in "troll the inferiors" mode he's different? Not that I care, from where I sit he's still proof of why non-PvPers won't be bothered.
The only way to fix that is to arrange 1-on-1 sessions between each "bad apple" and Dr. Phil.
Good luck with that.
R.I.P
Im not saying I want special pvp equipment unlocks in STO pvp, but if they had some sort of reward, something to work towards in Pvp, I wouldnt mind getting my TRIBBLE handed to me in pvp. Theres just nothing to work for, theres nothing in sto pvp that makes me say YES it was totally worth getting the TRIBBLE kicked out of me for such and such accolade/costume unlock/reward of some kind.
I don't PVP because I don't care for the attitudes of the average PVPer... if you are confused as to why that might be, read the PVP forums section specifically comments directed towards new players, inexperienced players and PVE players in general.
Captain Ariel Trueheart Department of Temporal Investigations
U.S.S. Valkyrie - NCC 991701
=/\= ================================= =/\=
I'm lazy. PvP would require a different boff layout, other doffs and farming for some "must have items". STO is great for some lazy PvE and the social part of mmos.
2. Only those whom love to grind for the most exclusive gear play PVP
3. Their's no ranking system in PVP, therefore a noob who's curious will be thrown into the lion's den with experienced PVP players. Not being able to survive more than 1 minute is enough to turn ANY PVP rookie off.
Those are the reason why I do not PVP.
dumbed down is the word, because it was the truth for me personally. the only pve that really challenges you that i have found is no win scenario, and trying to do spire perfectly. thats still just mass slaughtering though, thats what your trying to do, out dps long and hard enough. at least spire requires you to fly at top speed from place to place and deal whats there as quickly as possible.
im currently doing mostly grinding these days, running races and leveling rep. this happen every time a new rep comes out, and after i finish it up, boy am i full of bad habits, its a week before im back in top form. from the perspective that pvp is the hardest content, that requires you to use all your ships potential and all your skill, what pve trains you to do is a disservice in the pvp environment, it ends up being so different. it took years of playing to get to were i am now, im only speaking of my own experience. I was dumbed down, I had to unlearn everything and learn it all over again, i was mad at pvp for every reason you guys are. but I got through it, and it was worth it for the fun i can have in pvp now.
those pve'ers that rocked the que were doing what i and many others had been doing solo for years now, kirking, in maxed out DPS beam boats, i just never organized a group of 5 to magnify the effect of FAW, they did that first. it did open the eyes of many vets that rolled thier eyes at my 'lol builds' all this time befor that.
it never came up. pvp has its problems sure, but the answer to counter them is usually to bring your own team. gravity well seemed to be out of control , but after some testing i found just 3 points into inertial dampners all but made you immune to it. the next biggest problem are the FAW boats, but only when there are 3 or more of them on a team. the random scattered damage of FAW stops being harmlessly scattered about once multiple people are using it. everything else can pretty much be countered, if not by you then a heal boat on the team.
i didn't come here to insult, the information im providing is so different from what you believe to be true that it must seem like i am i guess. so many of you are so off base. you think your 1 bad experience is the rule, and you all tell your stores and build up this bubble of loathing, im not doing damage to pvp by being here, that negativity is. bow many are browsing this thread and reading these comments, trying to get a feel for whats true?
to those people, i'll just say im the one that actually pvps every day, and no pve content comes close to matching the fun you can have there in a good match. let me guess, thats an insult to right? not all matches are good, but dont be discouraged, the learning curve is steep, and in a 5v5, 1 poor performance by a single player on your team can turn it into a gank fest, no mater how good the other 4 of you are. as one wise pvper once said, its pvp, someone has to die. dont take it personally, dont be discouraged. give it another shot or form a team on the organized pvp channel. get some fleet mates, get on vent and communicate. you dont automatically win pvp, it takes effort. but your effort is rewarded with a great deal of fun. if it wasn't, why would i waist all this time in this thread?
wow. apply what same attitude i outlined to anything in life, not something trivial about a game mode in a video game. do you still feel the same way?
what, do you think i was talking about content? like the sphere or something? im not going to now, but i might later if i feel like wasting time proving this point, but take a look at the blogs detailing all the new consoles and new doff active roster abilities from the lock boxs, just how many of those have any use against npcs? and how many are tailor made for dealing with other player ships? here's 2 off the top of my head
the scramble sensor doff, that adds cool downs to all the abilities currently running. what possible purpose does this serve in pve?
how about the original black death console? originally anyone stuck in it was totally unable to use any station powers inside it. again, big deal to npcs, that can use maybe 3 abilities every 3 minutes. total i win button in pvp though, were player ships are cycling and activating station powers every 5 seconds. the nerf/buff it got was that it dealt more damage when it exploded, and you could use station powers in it but not fire any weapons. so, good for pvp and pve that fix was.
my first post was a reaction to the insidious comments in this thread about pvp. its amazing how defensive and offended you all get when you get the same. id be happy to chat with and offer guidance to anyone that thinks im a just awful lol. i get at least 1 tell every single day from people that said they benefited from the information in the thread, and ive made quite a number of friends that way. some days i spend more time helping people with thier builds pming back and forth then i do playing.
Of course, they ruined it...
Oh Really ?
Actually the thread wasn't posted in the PvP Forum, and it's Title "To the PVE community, Why don't you PVP?" pretty much say that this isn't about PvP mechanics (which you have repeatedly attempted to derail the thread with, even if it's just the basics).
You speak (whether you know it or not) from a mindset where you are somehow more elite than the poor PvE peasants who just don't understand the game. Your own quotes above bear this out.
This thread is about what are the reasons we (the PvE community) do not currently PvP. Yes, some of those reasons are going to be quite toxic, somewhat angry, but man, that's to be expected. If you are not one of the people being discussed, then you should have let it slide off your back.
The second purpose of the thread, is to try and brainstorm ideas for ways in which we (the more casual PvE player base) can find PvP enjoyable. What things we might be looking for.
NONE of the things you have contributed to the thread have done anything to advance these topics. Instead, with your every elitist, insulting word, you continue to prove one of the reasons most of us DON'T PvP. The attitude and "better than you" BS we have encountered in your elite PvP community that is so above our little "peasant" tier of play.
Now, perhaps you could allow us to get back to actual constructive discussion about how the idea, community and gameplay of PvP can become enjoyable to we poor unelightened peasants.
I played EVE for a year, no bigger group of a**holes on the planet and never again.....I want to play star trek, not kill other feds in same ships....
One need only look at the PVP parts of these forums to see examples of the complete and utter disdain with which the PVE community is held by PVPers, after reading through some of the scathing comments in those threads it shouldn't come as a mystery as to why the PVE Community has no interest in PVP, you are your own worst enemies in that respect.
As long as PVPers are going to allow goons to represent you and carry with their behavior unsanctioned you can not expect any changes in how the PVP community is perceived as a whole.
He only has himself and his self-declared elite buddies to blame for being increasingly less and less relevant to this game as a whole.
No one wants to be roflstomped and then told "stop being bad" by snobbish, arrogant kids playing a stupid video game. It's not fun, and so they move on. Games that do PVP well try very carefully to prevent super one sided roflstomps no matter how long the PVPer played, or how geared he is, or what magic super invincible template is all the rage.
I just don't enjoy hanging out with a bunch of Stop Having Fun Guys, is what it all boils down to.