Looking at the last few pages and the last few PVP supporters in this thread (yes, some exceptions apply), it truly is no wonder why, I quote, "PVE'ers fear a PVP revamp".
Look at these guys. I don't want to play with them. Not many would.
Heck, I don't think I'd enjoy seeing them in zone chat in Earth Spacedock/Qo'nos for that matter. It'd be an echo chamber of "WAAAAGH ALTRUISM IS A LIE THE PEASANTS FEAR US" and the like.
Does anyone know actually how many "coders" they have on staff?
I don't have any idea of the breakdown, but if I recall correctly, I saw a blurb on a PWE website that stated there were 160 employees at the Cryptic, Los Gatos, facility.
And here, you describe exactly what those of us IN the PvP community are concerned with when the discussion goes to the concept of 'balance'. You have no idea, I suspect, how many PvP players would agree with your analysis...if not your solution.
No, I actually intended that post to be as reasonably and concilatory as possible. As a pvper (not in this game, at least, not for the last year of it due to the start of the "super rotation invincible template theorycrafting" shenanigans) in several other games, I do have a stake, an interest, in a fun PVP game.
They even added 4 on 4 arenas in Old Republic that are actually a lot of fun compared to Voidstar or Alderaan (soft spot for Huttball and still like it but I digress).
My problem is that in this game, the particular agenda, the particular mindset of the most vocal pvpers on this forum, is toxic. It's not just toxic now, it was toxic way back before launch where pvp was just discussed in THEORY on how it should be done.
I actually had a blast way back in the day simply darting with my bird of prey to poke for weaknesses at "fedballs" spitting mines and waiting for one of us to decloak first. But that wasn't good enough for the self-described "hardcore" who wanted full PVP, everywhere, to hell with if it made sense to gank in front of Earth Spacedock. They wanted lootable items from victims inventory. Some wanted permadeath!
As I said, toxic. Hardly persuasive, obnoxious, and quite loud. And, thankfully, a minority.
I don't agree with your analysis here. As in, "I'm pretty sure you're wrong". Whether it's misinterpretation on purpose, or just misunderstanding, I don't know and won't speculate, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.
I lost track of what I might be wrong about, but I will stand by this:
A PVP revamp at this time, with the game we have, with the limited staff Cryptic has, is a gamble at best and almost certainly a drain of time, resources, and money that is better used elsewhere.
If the word "altruism" is so dirty to some of the 4chan-borne internet elite, I'll use the term "bad business." Moan all you want, but it's bad business to chase after theoretical customers, especially ones so notoriously fickle that they might not even come even if you build something for them.
They're better off tending to the most of the customers they already have. And that's not likely to change, especially when the method of persuasion seems to be about insulting as many of the unwashed rabble that PVE as you can.
Ah, you're using the "show us on the doll where (concept) touched you" insult meme.
Do you have anything else a little fresher?
Merely trying understand why you have such hate for pvp, in STO evidently, that makes you attack other posters when they disagree with you. Something must have spoiled pvp for you in this game but not others, like planetside.
I ask because yours is a not uncommon blnd hate Ive seen often in these forums. An honest question considering you attacked me because I used the word liberal and disagreed with you.
Your hate of the STO pvpervseems rooted in more than just a passing dislike.
lol. Forced Altruism is a lie. Imposing sacrifice on another is not Altruism. The needs of the many do not always out wiegh the needs of the few or the one.
I have no idea where peasants came into the issue.
Merely trying understand why you have such hate for pvp, in STO evidently, that makes you attack other posters when they disagree with you. Something must have spoiled pvp for you in this game but not others, like planetside.
I ask because yours is a not uncommon blnd hate Ive seen often in these forums. An honest question considering you attacked me because I used the word liberal and disagreed with you.
Your hate of the STO pvpervseems rooted in more than just a passing dislike.
Don't play the victim card, especially after all of your previous posturing. It's a little embarassing.
This isn't the best platform for PVP in general, and that is my stance and my position on it, as a person that leveled a KDF character just about entirely on PVP to maximum levels in the very early stages of the game and pushed up another just before KDF PVE content was added.
It would be like expecting Spore to provide a convincing space flight simulation on the level of the X-Wing series. Or, a more recent example, it would be like demanding that EVE Online have an FPS mode outside of the ship, which they DID try to do and so far it's a sloppy mess that's barely even tied in to the mother game, costing a lot of time and money and generally not paying off yet even after many months of attempting to tidy it up.
That's it. Put down the crystal ball and the imaginary psychology degree. I feel this game isn't that fit for PVP and any attempt to do so might not necessarily bring in new players in any appreciable amount, especially at the rate you seem to repulse them. Queues are only getting longer, and in ground PVP, you may as well take night classes at the local college while waiting for the queue to hit.
Whining about "blind hate" is a little off-putting, considering the personal attacks already slung my way that I've shrugged off because I have an opinion and stand by it. I would ask why you have such a particular hatred of PVEers and so many presumptions as to why they are not interested in getting ganked by you, but that would be playing the same stupid game so I'll decline.
lol. Forced Altruism is a lie. Imposing sacrifice on another is not Altruism. The needs of the many do not always out wiegh the needs of the few or the one.
I have no idea where peasants came into the issue.
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed. I suppose I'd get some reaction if this isn't the sort of thing I see every day on messageboards across the internet, not to mention zone chat in ESD. Or Fleet channel in Old Republic. Or warpgate on Indar for that matter.
You're not quite as shocking or remarkable or even upsetting as you make yourself out to be. You made a philosophy of selfishness. Congratulations. So has the dimmer part of a generation.
except I'll disagree with you on the business end...and here's why:
It's not bad business when you have a Captive Audience. Star Trek is a property that's been largely profitable and internationally popular for around fifty years or so.
You can find more people who speak Klingon, worldwide, than Esperanto (comparing two artificial languages here-Klingon was developed by/for fans of the IP, Esperanto was developed by governmental agreements some years earlier.)
It's not the same risk-graph, and in this case, it's not even a risk. Seriously, Dinosaurs with lasers on their heads??
Now, that said, I agree that devoting an entire development cycle only to pvp is a bad idea-just like devoting an entire development cycle to, say, a set of federation-exclusive FE's is a bad idea.
but a far worse idea, is to NOT try to expand and capture additional market share through improvement.
The real debate ends up being 'What to improve'...and I think you're missing out on something else.
B's discussion of 'Altruism' is spot on in pointing out how selfish, as opposed to altruistic, those that tout Altruism often are. The idea isn't dead, he just interprets it as an individual trait, as opposed to treating as a collective trait.
He's not arguing against giving to, or sacrificing for, others-he's arguing against making someone else give to, or sacrifice for others without their consent.
"Consent" implies free will, a willingness, a desire, permission.
Imagine it as the difference between a Volunteer fire department (unpaid but there of their own free will) vs. a Conscripted fire-department (Drafted, forced to be there.)
The Volunteers reason to be there is Altruistic.
The Conscripts' reason for being there is not-it's coerced.
So if your county (or parish, for those Louisiana natives out there) votes to have a Volunteer fire dept. then it's an altruistic group of men doing the fire-fighting.
But, if they vote to conscript firefighters, that does NOT make the County altruistic-they're being generous with someone else's resources, instead of their own.
This is why I think you're wrong in your analysis.
I'll ask one more time. Please save the Ayn Rand for the messageboard choir of your choice. I don't see what purpose it has here.
Either this is some weird coincidence that is not without precedent, or the self-declared PVP elite of this game has some sort of objectivist streak. Which is weird because they are technically asking for a handout from PWE/Cryptic to cater to their minority needs when they seem to be doing just fine making money off of PVE people.
Then again the entire movement is full of all the hypocrisy they seem to complain about in other points of view, all the way back to Ayn Rand collecting Social Security.
psst amalefactor there is a multi-quote option when posting. Please use that when responding to more than one post so you're not making numerous replies
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
wow...you really just don't get it. The point was that it's not altruistic to make someone ELSE sacrifice in your place. Is that too hard a concept?
'Altruism' means SELF sacrifice, not 'Take it on yourself to make others sacrifice'.
There's another word or two for the latter, but making Other People sacrifice is definitely in the range of "SELFISH"-which is fundamentally the polar opposite of altruism.
Using one of your own examples:
When a GI jumps on a grenade to save his buddies-that's Altruism.
When a GI's buddies take a vote and throw him on the Grenade, that's selfish.
NOW do you get it?
What I'm getting is that you're of the mindset that the only way someone will fully, to your satisfaction, understand your point of view is if that person agrees with you.
Again, applying your post to the OP, this libertarian echo chamber is going nowhere and doesn't even have any bearing on the thread anymore.
psst amalefactor there is a multi-quote option when posting. Please use that when responding to more than one post so you're not making numerous replies
Oops!
I think I'm done here anyway. I was all right with arguing about PVP in this game and how important or unimportant it ought to be in future seasons, but this is turning into /pol on 4chan, fast and I think its usefulness as a thread is at an end.
Attacked is the correct term. Though I dont see myself as a victom.
Why attacked? Simply because neither of my two original posts where in response to anything you said.
I responded and agreed with one post about pvp and then to another about the phrase "needs of the many" yet you responded in defense as if I personally wronged you.
Thats attacking someone whom was not involved with you in debate or disagreement.
The fact that you've continued to maligne me as being selfish without proof , to the point that I made a history no less, only shows that you are just an person who enjoys this sort of conflict.
Too bad its all for naught. I still think PvPe is something we need more of in STO and the phrase " The needs of the many" is not always true or whats best.
Stew in the fact that nothing you say has any bearing on my belief in this and it was all because you replied to statements never directed at you in the begining.
lol.
More Fed and Romulan ships,costumes,consoles and other useless items that players buy is what makes pwe so much money on this game - why do anything but what makes you money?? Their business is not about taking risks as we see from season to season - it's adding the same stuff over and over to the same large group of people that buy it.
It's fairly simple - and the captive audience argument for risk taking also works for not risk taking - people don't have any other options for their trek fix - so you can get away with lots of bugs and frickin dinos with lasers on the heads and people still will come back.
At this point I don't know how they could separate New blood from all the sociopaths that like to prey on New players for their individual pleasure. And this is not a sto trend(in fact I find the least amount of these individuals in star trek online - it's pvp community is actually full of many decent and respectful players - could be the trek geek factor there)the amount of sociopaths in American video games - from call of duty to battlefield and others are growing at such an alarming rate that the American mental health society rates sociopaths as the largest grow mental health concern.
It's a complex and huge issue changing PvP and I don't think they ever want to venture down that risky road.
What personel attacks? The worst I have said is you seem to have a blind hate on this subject, and thats just in the last few posts as your replies have become more heated.
So far you insulted what you think is my political view, called me selfish and continued to maligne me while I have merely stated my opinion back in defense as civily as possible.
The idea to only keep the game healthy in the areas that the majority play is a bad one. It's like saying it's healthy to have just a little bit of cancer. A healthy game in all areas will only make the game largely better for everyone. I imagine pvpers spend a generous amount on the game to stay competitive.
When you have appendicitis, its best just to have the appendix out, its not like its required for survival.
Not that I think PvP should be removed, but if it where the impact to the overall game would probably be marginal at best.
I don't care about PVP. So I don't fear it being changed. I had my fill of PVP on another game, so therefor I won't be doing it. I usually avoid PVP like the plague.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
and it's a captive market-that market is people keen on Star Trek, a money-spending-like-a-drunk-sailor portion of that market happens to be Klingon fans. (I can dress up as a starfleet officer for less than fifty bucks at a goodwill-under 25 if I know how to sew, but it costs a frelling mint to make a Klingon costuem and involves makeup and latex...think about it next time you're at ANY sci-fi con.)
And if you got *all* these wannabe Klingons to play STO, the population blip wouldn't even be noticed. You notice these people at a con because they stand out. But unless you can find a hundred thousand of these people and then get them to play STO, it's not the major market you believe it to be.
and the changes that would help PvP (the most) would also help Cryptic's bottom-line in PvE by smoothing performance in co-op play and raiding
It would help PvE balance. There's absolutely no evidence that it would help the bottom line, however. In fact, there's an excellent argument that the opposite is true. Simple example: if the Fleet Assault Cruiser is as good a ship as a JHAS, that would be a significant loss to Cryptic/PWE.
ow, it's good for both, and thus, good for bottom line-certainly a better strategy than trying to think up something "new" then half-assing it for next season.
Actually, what they have been doing so far is working, so there's very little reason for them to change strategies, especially for one ("Fix PvP and you'll be making money hand over fist.") that has failed in other MMOs
Actually, what they have been doing so far is working, so there's very little reason for them to change strategies, especially for one ("Fix PvP and you'll be making money hand over fist.") that has failed in other MMOs
Comments
Look at these guys. I don't want to play with them. Not many would.
Heck, I don't think I'd enjoy seeing them in zone chat in Earth Spacedock/Qo'nos for that matter. It'd be an echo chamber of "WAAAAGH ALTRUISM IS A LIE THE PEASANTS FEAR US" and the like.
I don't have any idea of the breakdown, but if I recall correctly, I saw a blurb on a PWE website that stated there were 160 employees at the Cryptic, Los Gatos, facility.
No, I actually intended that post to be as reasonably and concilatory as possible. As a pvper (not in this game, at least, not for the last year of it due to the start of the "super rotation invincible template theorycrafting" shenanigans) in several other games, I do have a stake, an interest, in a fun PVP game.
They even added 4 on 4 arenas in Old Republic that are actually a lot of fun compared to Voidstar or Alderaan (soft spot for Huttball and still like it but I digress).
My problem is that in this game, the particular agenda, the particular mindset of the most vocal pvpers on this forum, is toxic. It's not just toxic now, it was toxic way back before launch where pvp was just discussed in THEORY on how it should be done.
I actually had a blast way back in the day simply darting with my bird of prey to poke for weaknesses at "fedballs" spitting mines and waiting for one of us to decloak first. But that wasn't good enough for the self-described "hardcore" who wanted full PVP, everywhere, to hell with if it made sense to gank in front of Earth Spacedock. They wanted lootable items from victims inventory. Some wanted permadeath!
As I said, toxic. Hardly persuasive, obnoxious, and quite loud. And, thankfully, a minority.
I lost track of what I might be wrong about, but I will stand by this:
A PVP revamp at this time, with the game we have, with the limited staff Cryptic has, is a gamble at best and almost certainly a drain of time, resources, and money that is better used elsewhere.
If the word "altruism" is so dirty to some of the 4chan-borne internet elite, I'll use the term "bad business." Moan all you want, but it's bad business to chase after theoretical customers, especially ones so notoriously fickle that they might not even come even if you build something for them.
They're better off tending to the most of the customers they already have. And that's not likely to change, especially when the method of persuasion seems to be about insulting as many of the unwashed rabble that PVE as you can.
Merely trying understand why you have such hate for pvp, in STO evidently, that makes you attack other posters when they disagree with you. Something must have spoiled pvp for you in this game but not others, like planetside.
I ask because yours is a not uncommon blnd hate Ive seen often in these forums. An honest question considering you attacked me because I used the word liberal and disagreed with you.
Your hate of the STO pvpervseems rooted in more than just a passing dislike.
R.I.P
I have no idea where peasants came into the issue.
R.I.P
Don't play the victim card, especially after all of your previous posturing. It's a little embarassing.
This isn't the best platform for PVP in general, and that is my stance and my position on it, as a person that leveled a KDF character just about entirely on PVP to maximum levels in the very early stages of the game and pushed up another just before KDF PVE content was added.
It would be like expecting Spore to provide a convincing space flight simulation on the level of the X-Wing series. Or, a more recent example, it would be like demanding that EVE Online have an FPS mode outside of the ship, which they DID try to do and so far it's a sloppy mess that's barely even tied in to the mother game, costing a lot of time and money and generally not paying off yet even after many months of attempting to tidy it up.
That's it. Put down the crystal ball and the imaginary psychology degree. I feel this game isn't that fit for PVP and any attempt to do so might not necessarily bring in new players in any appreciable amount, especially at the rate you seem to repulse them. Queues are only getting longer, and in ground PVP, you may as well take night classes at the local college while waiting for the queue to hit.
Whining about "blind hate" is a little off-putting, considering the personal attacks already slung my way that I've shrugged off because I have an opinion and stand by it. I would ask why you have such a particular hatred of PVEers and so many presumptions as to why they are not interested in getting ganked by you, but that would be playing the same stupid game so I'll decline.
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed. I suppose I'd get some reaction if this isn't the sort of thing I see every day on messageboards across the internet, not to mention zone chat in ESD. Or Fleet channel in Old Republic. Or warpgate on Indar for that matter.
You're not quite as shocking or remarkable or even upsetting as you make yourself out to be. You made a philosophy of selfishness. Congratulations. So has the dimmer part of a generation.
I'll ask one more time. Please save the Ayn Rand for the messageboard choir of your choice. I don't see what purpose it has here.
Then again the entire movement is full of all the hypocrisy they seem to complain about in other points of view, all the way back to Ayn Rand collecting Social Security.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
What I'm getting is that you're of the mindset that the only way someone will fully, to your satisfaction, understand your point of view is if that person agrees with you.
Again, applying your post to the OP, this libertarian echo chamber is going nowhere and doesn't even have any bearing on the thread anymore.
Oops!
I think I'm done here anyway. I was all right with arguing about PVP in this game and how important or unimportant it ought to be in future seasons, but this is turning into /pol on 4chan, fast and I think its usefulness as a thread is at an end.
Why attacked? Simply because neither of my two original posts where in response to anything you said.
I responded and agreed with one post about pvp and then to another about the phrase "needs of the many" yet you responded in defense as if I personally wronged you.
Thats attacking someone whom was not involved with you in debate or disagreement.
The fact that you've continued to maligne me as being selfish without proof , to the point that I made a history no less, only shows that you are just an person who enjoys this sort of conflict.
Too bad its all for naught. I still think PvPe is something we need more of in STO and the phrase " The needs of the many" is not always true or whats best.
Stew in the fact that nothing you say has any bearing on my belief in this and it was all because you replied to statements never directed at you in the begining.
lol.
R.I.P
It's fairly simple - and the captive audience argument for risk taking also works for not risk taking - people don't have any other options for their trek fix - so you can get away with lots of bugs and frickin dinos with lasers on the heads and people still will come back.
At this point I don't know how they could separate New blood from all the sociopaths that like to prey on New players for their individual pleasure. And this is not a sto trend(in fact I find the least amount of these individuals in star trek online - it's pvp community is actually full of many decent and respectful players - could be the trek geek factor there)the amount of sociopaths in American video games - from call of duty to battlefield and others are growing at such an alarming rate that the American mental health society rates sociopaths as the largest grow mental health concern.
It's a complex and huge issue changing PvP and I don't think they ever want to venture down that risky road.
So far you insulted what you think is my political view, called me selfish and continued to maligne me while I have merely stated my opinion back in defense as civily as possible.
R.I.P
R.I.P
When you have appendicitis, its best just to have the appendix out, its not like its required for survival.
Not that I think PvP should be removed, but if it where the impact to the overall game would probably be marginal at best.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
And several games have pretty much proved that it's a market largely unaddressable with videogames.
And if you got *all* these wannabe Klingons to play STO, the population blip wouldn't even be noticed. You notice these people at a con because they stand out. But unless you can find a hundred thousand of these people and then get them to play STO, it's not the major market you believe it to be.
People don't want to play Klingons. Anything else is rationalization.
Ok. Now we get to the meat of the matter, which is that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
All true.
But what you ignore is that you have to completely renormalize the entire freaking game.
It would help PvE balance. There's absolutely no evidence that it would help the bottom line, however. In fact, there's an excellent argument that the opposite is true. Simple example: if the Fleet Assault Cruiser is as good a ship as a JHAS, that would be a significant loss to Cryptic/PWE.
Actually, what they have been doing so far is working, so there's very little reason for them to change strategies, especially for one ("Fix PvP and you'll be making money hand over fist.") that has failed in other MMOs
To what other MMOs would you be referring?