I dont fear a revamp of it, I just think that the development resources that are put into it would be better spent in making new STFs and PVE content.
This it's a waste of time when we need decent and meaningful story line updates. I don't want more fluff and resource sink content. LOR was decent as was the FE that introduced season 8. However, I felt let down by the current season and it's been 2409 since launch it's time for 2410, to end the pointless Klingon fed war, and to branch the main story out. PvP is something I just don't care about.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.
/thread
Is it any wonder so many gamers, not just here but elsewhere, seem to have an almost violent over-reaction against that simple yet noble notion?
Case in point, self-declared "elite" players, be they raiders in PVE settings, e-sport MLG types in PVP, or the like. Where all that matters is they get a lot of attention and special perks and exclusive content.
A lot of the pvpers that posted here in this very thread seemed to have the same attitude. "I don't care what most of the players do. They are beneath my notice and are probably afraid of how elite I am. I demand that they are forced to pvp me so I can gank those noobs!"
Is it any wonder so many gamers, not just here but elsewhere, seem to have an almost violent over-reaction against that simple yet noble notion?
Case in point, self-declared "elite" players, be they raiders in PVE settings, e-sport MLG types in PVP, or the like. Where all that matters is they get a lot of attention and special perks and exclusive content.
A lot of the pvpers that posted here in this very thread seemed to have the same attitude. "I don't care what most of the players do. They are beneath my notice and are probably afraid of how elite I am. I demand that they are forced to pvp me so I can gank those noobs!"
Please, point out exactly one instance of anyone saying that.
aside from the OP, show me one? OTOH, I can show you a string of PvE'ers who seem to feel that their preferred mode of play should, in fact, be the ONLY mode.
That is assuming that there is a large portion of the playerbase that secretly longs to PvP when there is no evidence to back it up.
The playerbase apparently craves to be around the people peddling PVP in this thread so badly that the PVPers in this thread apparently want to make it mandatory or coerce participation.
The PVPers are not doing a very good job selling the idea if this thread is all they have so far.
A hint: insulting people you're supposedly trying to sell an idea to (such as the OP, all the way up to and including the title) is likely to be taken as flamebait. Or a lot of chest-beating and self-congratulation.
And this is why PvE people are against PvP stuff. I have no interest in PvP at all however if those zones that stuff in them that I needed to be able to do new task forces it would seriously annoy me. I would probably go into the zones and try to get the stuff but ignore the other players entirely. If you attacked me I would just ignore you until you blew my ship up or you left me alone. If the problem was bad enough that I could not get the item I would probably just give up on the game. Nothing you add to the game is going to make PvP interesting to me.
I do NOT play this game for the challenge in any way shape or form. If I want a challenge I have work that I am trying to relax from. The games that have tried to force PvP or encourage more people to do it typically create a large backlash and the games end up dying.
If you really want a game that focuses on PvP go play EVE. STO is not focused on PvP in any way, it is barely more than a checkbox feature. The vast majority of people have no interest in PvP. They don't even want to know it exists and requiring them to go to PvP areas to get PvE stuff will just cause them to leave and go to another game. You can bet that Cryptic and PWE would not do that. The impact of putting PvE content in PvP areas is pretty well known.
More than a little antaganistic are you not?
The loot drops are random in Kerrat. The zone offers no definitive reward except DL for doing the mission related to it.
If you are farming Kerrat to get certain items you choose to do so on the dice roll that you may get what you seek. Better to buy what you desire from the Exchange and remain safe, as no one is forcing you to play in Kerrat. Only your desire for a possibility at getting usable very rare drop is the only thing making you farm kerrat. The game does not require it.
Challenge, where did I mention challenge? If you wish for a continued casual level of gameplay with high rewards then do not venture into areas that require risk for rewards instead of the casual gameplay you value.
Do not presume that your gameplay idea is the only choice that needs to be allowed. Not everyone agrees.
Though I do find it funny that in a game of 99% casaul play, one norequired pvp mission and pvpe zone causes so much strive when it can be easily ignored by those whom dislike pvp.
What it sounds like, is that it's not PvP you have a problem with, it's LOSING.
^This is the attitude that makes people dislike PVPers. "Anyone who doesn't want to spend time in PVP entertaining me must be some kind of coward!" This is far more galling to many people than some guy typing in all-caps in a PVE match (usually, all that means is that he's going to stop sucking long enough for you to go and get the optional done yourself).
In fact, I do PVP with people in my fleet on occasion, and I have a decent DPS build (not the very top, but I pull my weight).
My problem with PVP is that it just honestly isn't very good. The Halo-style arenas are boring. Kerrat is so bad the devs have considered nuking it. Even when I work up enough interest to even bother caring, I can't get satisfaction out of it. The learning curve is far too steep. There are just too many things that flat-out don't work in PVP, or require far too much effort to get to work properly for me to bother with. Way too many of the abilities can be easily neutralized, while flat-DPS is nearly impossible for some ships to counteract.
The two factions are too different and neither really has much of a feel for the capabilities of the other. Feds think the KDF is OP, but if you give them a superior KDF ship in the form of the Avenger, they can't figure it out and think that it sucks (same with the KDF and the Bortas). This leads to all sorts of screwy advice on building ships that I honestly can't work up the effort to sort out.
There's too much of a focus on cookie-cutter builds and using voice chat annoys me and distracts from the game experience, yet a lot of people require it. The game is not balanced for PVP and the idea that we can rebalance the whole game at this point just to satisfy PVPers is absurd at this point. Even if you did, there's no compelling rewards for PVP or any reason to bother with it at all. I don't hate losing in PVP because it doesn't feel all that different from winning. It's far too much effort and far too little reward.
I'll admit, all these problems are proof that PVP does need an upgrade, but it's ludicrous to think that it could all be fixed, all at once, in a single season just like that. They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
^This is the attitude that makes people dislike PVPers. "Anyone who doesn't want to spend time in PVP entertaining me must be some kind of coward!" This is far more galling to many people than some guy typing in all-caps in a PVE match (usually, all that means is that he's going to stop sucking long enough for you to go and get the optional done yourself).
In fact, I do PVP with people in my fleet on occasion, and I have a decent DPS build (not the very top, but I pull my weight).
My problem with PVP is that it just honestly isn't very good. The Halo-style arenas are boring. Kerrat is so bad the devs have considered nuking it. Even when I work up enough interest to even bother caring, I can't get satisfaction out of it. The learning curve is far too steep. There are just too many things that flat-out don't work in PVP, or require far too much effort to get to work properly for me to bother with. Way too many of the abilities can be easily neutralized, while flat-DPS is nearly impossible for some ships to counteract.
The two factions are too different and neither really has much of a feel for the capabilities of the other. Feds think the KDF is OP, but if you give them a superior KDF ship in the form of the Avenger, they can't figure it out and think that it sucks (same with the KDF and the Bortas). This leads to all sorts of screwy advice on building ships that I honestly can't work up the effort to sort out.
There's too much of a focus on cookie-cutter builds and using voice chat annoys me and distracts from the game experience, yet a lot of people require it. The game is not balanced for PVP and the idea that we can rebalance the whole game at this point just to satisfy PVPers is absurd at this point. Even if you did, there's no compelling rewards for PVP or any reason to bother with it at all. I don't hate losing in PVP because it doesn't feel all that different from winning. It's far too much effort and far too little reward.
I'll admit, all these problems are proof that PVP does need an upgrade, but it's ludicrous to think that it could all be fixed, all at once, in a single season just like that. They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
Thank you for saying what you did first. It says it better than I could have, frankly. I have less patience for these guys and might not have put it so nicely.
I could, for example, invert the very post you responded to: "It's not that they want PVP, they want to gank the unwilling!"
To those who have said they do not want to PvP to get PvE gear I thus say...
I agree.
But...on the other side of the equation, why must those who PvP be forced to do lots of PvE for their gear? (through things like rep and fleet holdings)
Not only do those create a very large barrier into PvP, it really doesn't make anyone happy since for PvPers, it's ANOTHER thing to grind through, more power creep to deal with, etc. For PvE, with each new holding and rep, it seems like there is less and less story (which sometimes the story CAN be good. I point you to most of the KDF missions, both old and new), and just the grind. Heck, the Dyson rep barely has any story at all, outside the DOFF missions and the cut scenes at each tier.
Less and less I see it as PvE vs PvP, or Fed vs KDf, etc, but more like the whole entire game is just getting more and more weighed down.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.
/thread
lol. Hardly but it is a very liberal outlook to have. Of course it all becomes a lie when the needs of the many are being met by your personal stockpile.
The needs of the many are often trivial or overlooked by the ones of the world.
If you do not believe this so, then by all means give all your worldly possesions to the many needy of your community.
Everyone talks big about sacrificing the one for the many until they themselves realize they are the one being sacrificed. Thrn oddly the rules suddenly chanhe.....
To those who have said they do not want to PvP to get PvE gear I thus say...
I agree.
But...on the other side of the equation, why must those who PvP be forced to do lots of PvE for their gear? (through things like rep and fleet holdings)
Not only do those create a very large barrier into PvP, it really doesn't make anyone happy since for PvPers, it's ANOTHER thing to grind through, more power creep to deal with, etc. For PvE, with each new holding and rep, it seems like there is less and less story (which sometimes the story CAN be good. I point you to most of the KDF missions, both old and new), and just the grind. Heck, the Dyson rep barely has any story at all, outside the DOFF missions and the cut scenes at each tier.
Less and less I see it as PvE vs PvP, or Fed vs KDf, etc, but more like the whole entire game is just getting more and more weighed down.
I have no issue at all with people doing PvP to get PvP gear. If someone wants to PvP they should not have to do PvE at all if they don't want to. I just object to some of those that want to put PvE gear into PvP areas and have that be the only realistic way to get that gear.
The biggest issues I have with a PvP revamp is I don't want it to negatively impact the PvE side and if they had their own gear that would not be an issue at all. The other issue I have is I doubt it would be worth it and would take dev time away from other things. If they can find a way to do it such that the time invested is worth the money they make back from it then they should do it but otherwise they should not.
But...on the other side of the equation, why must those who PvP be forced to do lots of PvE for their gear? (through things like rep and fleet holdings)
Probably because PVP rewards losers and winners, so adding mark boxes to PVP rewards would make it easy to exploit. Have 1 fleet fill out 2 teams and have Team 2 take off their shields and go get a drink. Five minutes of that and all 10 members of the fleet get marks.
If they could find a way to do it fairly, I'd be all in favor of adding mark rewards to PVP matches.
lol. Hardly but it is a very liberal outlook to have. Of course it all becomes a lie when the needs of the many are being met by your personal stockpile.
The needs of the many are often trivial or overlooked by the ones of the world.
If you do not believe this so, then by all means give all your worldly possesions to the many needy of your community.
Everyone talks big about sacrificing the one for the many until they themselves realize they are the one being sacrificed. Thrn oddly the rules suddenly chanhe.....
Hoo boy. You're trying to make fun of those nasty dirty liberals and your Ayn Rand is showing.
Best to politely step away from the politics. You wont impress anyone but your choir, sir.
Hoo boy. You're trying to make fun of those nasty dirty liberals and your Ayn Rand is showing.
Best to politely step away from the politics. You wont impress anyone but your choir, sir.
Hardly, just that the saying "the Needs of the Many...." is never as true as the speaker thinks it is when reality steps into the picture and its idealism fails.
Hardly, just that the saying "the Needs of the Many...." is never as true as the speaker thinks it is when reality steps into the picture and its idealism fails.
Well and good, though may I assume that "everyone for themself, I got mine" is also flawed and falliable in your estimation?
Hardly, just that the saying "the Needs of the Many...." is never as true as the speaker thinks it is when reality steps into the picture and its idealism fails.
Final thought on this: You're assuming that your own take on things is everyone's take. That's solipsism at best, and doesn't explain why a soldier might jump on a grenade, why adults sometimes adopt children they don't even have a genetic relation to, why even in today's cynical world people still go out of their way to help one another even at a cost to themselves, sometimes dying in the process.
Individuals that come up short when it comes to overall values when they are in a pinch hardly dissolve the very notion of "needs of the many". This isn't just a Vulcan thing. It's in the Egyptian code of Ma'at, it abounds in the Sermon on the Mount, and is a centerpiece of Buddhism.
But you have all the answers because you deconstructed altruism. Right?
They did for a while, and what you describe is exactly what happened. Likewise with the Foundry Klikkies. (note: both of those were sewn up/removed as soon as the Devs got wind of it...)
People have talked about the "Everybody wins" TRIBBLE with STF's too-the sheer number of threads bemoaning "AFK'ers" is a symptom of a larger problem.
one that really makes PvP kind of pointless for many players.
Cryptic is very unlikely to start scaling rewards in either venue, and here's why:
because that's not the way they want to do business. Everything in this game, PvE, PvP, Solo, is the purple "I participated" ribbon.
Everything.
that's their model, it's what they want.
There were MMOs that did the "the winners get more things to win more because winners deserve it and losers deserve nothing" thing. A few of them were quite famous, such as Shadowbane and Darkfall.
Probably because PVP rewards losers and winners, so adding mark boxes to PVP rewards would make it easy to exploit. Have 1 fleet fill out 2 teams and have Team 2 take off their shields and go get a drink. Five minutes of that and all 10 members of the fleet get marks.
If they could find a way to do it fairly, I'd be all in favor of adding mark rewards to PVP matches.
People do that already for the dil and FM (depending on the daily of course) already. Heck, I think out there is one or more chat channels devoted to just that. Last I heard, the largest one was like 4 times bigger (in number of players who have joined it) or so than the OrganizedPvP channel. They create private matches of people, doing pretty much exactly what you said. 3 matches, about 5 minutes roughly, bam, 1440 dil, and possibly more dil and FMs if the daily is up.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
People do that already for the dil and FM (depending on the daily of course) already. Heck, I think out there is one or more chat channels devoted to just that. Last I heard, the largest one was like 4 times bigger (in number of players who have joined it) or so than the OrganizedPvP channel. They create private matches of people, doing pretty much exactly what you said. 3 matches, about 5 minutes roughly, bam, 1440 dil, and possibly more dil and FMs if the daily is up.
In some other games the term for that was "Fight Clubbing." Star Wars Galaxies was infamous for it in the pre-CU Jedi days where these guys would grind exp in their own houses by dueling each other and almost never go outside until fully leveled and almost indestructible.
The idea to only keep the game healthy in the areas that the majority play is a bad one. It's like saying it's healthy to have just a little bit of cancer. A healthy game in all areas will only make the game largely better for everyone. I imagine pvpers spend a generous amount on the game to stay competitive.
The better pvp is, the more people will play. I love pvp, and I would play it more if there was more to it. If there ever is a pvp reputation, the rewards should be grand in order to attract attention and get people to participate. Fleet vs fleet pvp would be a great thing to implement, something along the lines of the pve battle zones introduced with season 8.
Comments
And one look at how that's worked out so far is why so many PvE players are against spending more developer time on PvP for the small minority.
There need to be a lot of things before PvP will be valid.
This it's a waste of time when we need decent and meaningful story line updates. I don't want more fluff and resource sink content. LOR was decent as was the FE that introduced season 8. However, I felt let down by the current season and it's been 2409 since launch it's time for 2410, to end the pointless Klingon fed war, and to branch the main story out. PvP is something I just don't care about.
Yep. There's one stamping its feet around here now, yelling "It's teh opshunal, d00d!"
You say that like STO is the way it is currently, because PvP has been given attention. It really has not.
In any event, it's really not the first time a majority has ignored the needs of a minority is it?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.
/thread
It happens.
The problem that a lot of people don't realize, is that PvP has the potential to make this game absolutely legendary.
Ah. This must be an example of what people mean when they say the PvE community is made of nicer people who do not smack-talk as much.
Is it any wonder so many gamers, not just here but elsewhere, seem to have an almost violent over-reaction against that simple yet noble notion?
Case in point, self-declared "elite" players, be they raiders in PVE settings, e-sport MLG types in PVP, or the like. Where all that matters is they get a lot of attention and special perks and exclusive content.
A lot of the pvpers that posted here in this very thread seemed to have the same attitude. "I don't care what most of the players do. They are beneath my notice and are probably afraid of how elite I am. I demand that they are forced to pvp me so I can gank those noobs!"
Please, point out exactly one instance of anyone saying that.
It's not that silly. It's that PvP offers a unique experience that PvE simply isn't capable of.
No computer can TRIBBLE up the way a human can, that is a fact.
Spare me the deconstructionist nonsense.
The playerbase apparently craves to be around the people peddling PVP in this thread so badly that the PVPers in this thread apparently want to make it mandatory or coerce participation.
The PVPers are not doing a very good job selling the idea if this thread is all they have so far.
A hint: insulting people you're supposedly trying to sell an idea to (such as the OP, all the way up to and including the title) is likely to be taken as flamebait. Or a lot of chest-beating and self-congratulation.
The loot drops are random in Kerrat. The zone offers no definitive reward except DL for doing the mission related to it.
If you are farming Kerrat to get certain items you choose to do so on the dice roll that you may get what you seek. Better to buy what you desire from the Exchange and remain safe, as no one is forcing you to play in Kerrat. Only your desire for a possibility at getting usable very rare drop is the only thing making you farm kerrat. The game does not require it.
Challenge, where did I mention challenge? If you wish for a continued casual level of gameplay with high rewards then do not venture into areas that require risk for rewards instead of the casual gameplay you value.
Do not presume that your gameplay idea is the only choice that needs to be allowed. Not everyone agrees.
Though I do find it funny that in a game of 99% casaul play, one norequired pvp mission and pvpe zone causes so much strive when it can be easily ignored by those whom dislike pvp.
R.I.P
Don't you mean "show me one more?" Or is this your way of revealing that the next one will be treated with the same "aside from the OP" brush-off?
^This is the attitude that makes people dislike PVPers. "Anyone who doesn't want to spend time in PVP entertaining me must be some kind of coward!" This is far more galling to many people than some guy typing in all-caps in a PVE match (usually, all that means is that he's going to stop sucking long enough for you to go and get the optional done yourself).
In fact, I do PVP with people in my fleet on occasion, and I have a decent DPS build (not the very top, but I pull my weight).
My problem with PVP is that it just honestly isn't very good. The Halo-style arenas are boring. Kerrat is so bad the devs have considered nuking it. Even when I work up enough interest to even bother caring, I can't get satisfaction out of it. The learning curve is far too steep. There are just too many things that flat-out don't work in PVP, or require far too much effort to get to work properly for me to bother with. Way too many of the abilities can be easily neutralized, while flat-DPS is nearly impossible for some ships to counteract.
The two factions are too different and neither really has much of a feel for the capabilities of the other. Feds think the KDF is OP, but if you give them a superior KDF ship in the form of the Avenger, they can't figure it out and think that it sucks (same with the KDF and the Bortas). This leads to all sorts of screwy advice on building ships that I honestly can't work up the effort to sort out.
There's too much of a focus on cookie-cutter builds and using voice chat annoys me and distracts from the game experience, yet a lot of people require it. The game is not balanced for PVP and the idea that we can rebalance the whole game at this point just to satisfy PVPers is absurd at this point. Even if you did, there's no compelling rewards for PVP or any reason to bother with it at all. I don't hate losing in PVP because it doesn't feel all that different from winning. It's far too much effort and far too little reward.
I'll admit, all these problems are proof that PVP does need an upgrade, but it's ludicrous to think that it could all be fixed, all at once, in a single season just like that. They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
Thank you for saying what you did first. It says it better than I could have, frankly. I have less patience for these guys and might not have put it so nicely.
I could, for example, invert the very post you responded to: "It's not that they want PVP, they want to gank the unwilling!"
I agree.
But...on the other side of the equation, why must those who PvP be forced to do lots of PvE for their gear? (through things like rep and fleet holdings)
Not only do those create a very large barrier into PvP, it really doesn't make anyone happy since for PvPers, it's ANOTHER thing to grind through, more power creep to deal with, etc. For PvE, with each new holding and rep, it seems like there is less and less story (which sometimes the story CAN be good. I point you to most of the KDF missions, both old and new), and just the grind. Heck, the Dyson rep barely has any story at all, outside the DOFF missions and the cut scenes at each tier.
Less and less I see it as PvE vs PvP, or Fed vs KDf, etc, but more like the whole entire game is just getting more and more weighed down.
Not sure what you mean...
Oh. Nevermind. Got it now...and you're right.
lol. Hardly but it is a very liberal outlook to have. Of course it all becomes a lie when the needs of the many are being met by your personal stockpile.
The needs of the many are often trivial or overlooked by the ones of the world.
If you do not believe this so, then by all means give all your worldly possesions to the many needy of your community.
Everyone talks big about sacrificing the one for the many until they themselves realize they are the one being sacrificed. Thrn oddly the rules suddenly chanhe.....
R.I.P
I have no issue at all with people doing PvP to get PvP gear. If someone wants to PvP they should not have to do PvE at all if they don't want to. I just object to some of those that want to put PvE gear into PvP areas and have that be the only realistic way to get that gear.
The biggest issues I have with a PvP revamp is I don't want it to negatively impact the PvE side and if they had their own gear that would not be an issue at all. The other issue I have is I doubt it would be worth it and would take dev time away from other things. If they can find a way to do it such that the time invested is worth the money they make back from it then they should do it but otherwise they should not.
Probably because PVP rewards losers and winners, so adding mark boxes to PVP rewards would make it easy to exploit. Have 1 fleet fill out 2 teams and have Team 2 take off their shields and go get a drink. Five minutes of that and all 10 members of the fleet get marks.
If they could find a way to do it fairly, I'd be all in favor of adding mark rewards to PVP matches.
Hoo boy. You're trying to make fun of those nasty dirty liberals and your Ayn Rand is showing.
Best to politely step away from the politics. You wont impress anyone but your choir, sir.
Hardly, just that the saying "the Needs of the Many...." is never as true as the speaker thinks it is when reality steps into the picture and its idealism fails.
R.I.P
Well and good, though may I assume that "everyone for themself, I got mine" is also flawed and falliable in your estimation?
Final thought on this: You're assuming that your own take on things is everyone's take. That's solipsism at best, and doesn't explain why a soldier might jump on a grenade, why adults sometimes adopt children they don't even have a genetic relation to, why even in today's cynical world people still go out of their way to help one another even at a cost to themselves, sometimes dying in the process.
Individuals that come up short when it comes to overall values when they are in a pinch hardly dissolve the very notion of "needs of the many". This isn't just a Vulcan thing. It's in the Egyptian code of Ma'at, it abounds in the Sermon on the Mount, and is a centerpiece of Buddhism.
But you have all the answers because you deconstructed altruism. Right?
There were MMOs that did the "the winners get more things to win more because winners deserve it and losers deserve nothing" thing. A few of them were quite famous, such as Shadowbane and Darkfall.
They have not done very well.
People do that already for the dil and FM (depending on the daily of course) already. Heck, I think out there is one or more chat channels devoted to just that. Last I heard, the largest one was like 4 times bigger (in number of players who have joined it) or so than the OrganizedPvP channel. They create private matches of people, doing pretty much exactly what you said. 3 matches, about 5 minutes roughly, bam, 1440 dil, and possibly more dil and FMs if the daily is up.
In some other games the term for that was "Fight Clubbing." Star Wars Galaxies was infamous for it in the pre-CU Jedi days where these guys would grind exp in their own houses by dueling each other and almost never go outside until fully leveled and almost indestructible.
The better pvp is, the more people will play. I love pvp, and I would play it more if there was more to it. If there ever is a pvp reputation, the rewards should be grand in order to attract attention and get people to participate. Fleet vs fleet pvp would be a great thing to implement, something along the lines of the pve battle zones introduced with season 8.