I think you're missing that little distinction there-most of the PvP community isn't INTERESTED in ganking you in your day-to-day play if you're not interested in fighting back.
Enough of them are.
New guy goes into, say, Cure Elite on a PuG for the first time, he gets shouted at and called names because he made a mistake, or didn't have a "Decent build", or was flying the wrong kind of ship, or people drop out of it when the optional fails, leaving the new guy there by himself-without a word beforehand.
There are definitely more a-holes in STF queues, because there are more people period in the STF queues than in PVP.
Thing is, your new guy is probably going to figure out how to do Cure Elite pretty quickly and easily in spite of the abuse.
If I want to complete that daily in the PVP zone, I'd better be ready to drop either hundreds of dollars or months of my time to set up that one JHAS/Marion/Aux2Bat/five purple MKXII tac console build on my characters so I stand a chance at competing, and be prepared to alter it whenever things get buffed/nerfed. I really don't care to do that.
So, I'll ignore that, and in two months the PVP people will be complaining about how nothing's a challenge anymore and PVP is ruined (again).
Keep PVP in it's own area, give it it's own unique rewards, and simply disallow any PVE stuff that's OP (if they'd made the tractor mines unavailable in PVP instead of nerfing them, we wouldn't be having this conversation).
So, I'll ignore that, and in two months the PVP people will be complaining about how nothing's a challenge anymore and PVP is ruined (again).
Maybe, in the same sense that players make irrational complaints about the PvE game. As for this being the case for PvP, I'm not sure on what else you are basing the prediction, as that scenario has yet to appear in this game in regard to PvP.
Maybe, in the same sense that players make irrational complaints about the PvE game. As for this being the case for PvP, I'm not sure on what else you are basing the prediction, as that scenario has yet to appear in this game in regard to PvP.
The PVP forum thinks that every new change is the one that's ruined PVP forever.
If I want to complete that daily in the PVP zone, I'd better be ready to drop either hundreds of dollars or months of my time to set up that one JHAS/Marion/Aux2Bat/five purple MKXII tac console build on my characters so I stand a chance at competing, and be prepared to alter it whenever things get buffed/nerfed. I really don't care to do that.
And this is my point. This game isn't balanced for PvP. Everyone who plays a good PvP game knows that there can't be any power creep, or best strat, item, or character. But in this game the "bests" are quite obvious.
And this is my point. This game isn't balanced for PvP. Everyone who plays a good PvP game knows that there can't be any power creep, or best strat, item, or character. But in this game the "bests" are quite obvious.
At the very least, there needs to be complete dual-speccing in this game before we do this.
I dont fear a revamp of it, I just think that the development resources that are put into it would be better spent in making new STFs and PVE content.
This it's a waste of time when we need decent and meaningful story line updates. I don't want more fluff and resource sink content. LOR was decent as was the FE that introduced season 8. However, I felt let down by the current season and it's been 2409 since launch it's time for 2410, to end the pointless Klingon fed war, and to branch the main story out. PvP is something I just don't care about.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.
/thread
Is it any wonder so many gamers, not just here but elsewhere, seem to have an almost violent over-reaction against that simple yet noble notion?
Case in point, self-declared "elite" players, be they raiders in PVE settings, e-sport MLG types in PVP, or the like. Where all that matters is they get a lot of attention and special perks and exclusive content.
A lot of the pvpers that posted here in this very thread seemed to have the same attitude. "I don't care what most of the players do. They are beneath my notice and are probably afraid of how elite I am. I demand that they are forced to pvp me so I can gank those noobs!"
Is it any wonder so many gamers, not just here but elsewhere, seem to have an almost violent over-reaction against that simple yet noble notion?
Case in point, self-declared "elite" players, be they raiders in PVE settings, e-sport MLG types in PVP, or the like. Where all that matters is they get a lot of attention and special perks and exclusive content.
A lot of the pvpers that posted here in this very thread seemed to have the same attitude. "I don't care what most of the players do. They are beneath my notice and are probably afraid of how elite I am. I demand that they are forced to pvp me so I can gank those noobs!"
Please, point out exactly one instance of anyone saying that.
aside from the OP, show me one? OTOH, I can show you a string of PvE'ers who seem to feel that their preferred mode of play should, in fact, be the ONLY mode.
That is assuming that there is a large portion of the playerbase that secretly longs to PvP when there is no evidence to back it up.
The playerbase apparently craves to be around the people peddling PVP in this thread so badly that the PVPers in this thread apparently want to make it mandatory or coerce participation.
The PVPers are not doing a very good job selling the idea if this thread is all they have so far.
A hint: insulting people you're supposedly trying to sell an idea to (such as the OP, all the way up to and including the title) is likely to be taken as flamebait. Or a lot of chest-beating and self-congratulation.
And this is why PvE people are against PvP stuff. I have no interest in PvP at all however if those zones that stuff in them that I needed to be able to do new task forces it would seriously annoy me. I would probably go into the zones and try to get the stuff but ignore the other players entirely. If you attacked me I would just ignore you until you blew my ship up or you left me alone. If the problem was bad enough that I could not get the item I would probably just give up on the game. Nothing you add to the game is going to make PvP interesting to me.
I do NOT play this game for the challenge in any way shape or form. If I want a challenge I have work that I am trying to relax from. The games that have tried to force PvP or encourage more people to do it typically create a large backlash and the games end up dying.
If you really want a game that focuses on PvP go play EVE. STO is not focused on PvP in any way, it is barely more than a checkbox feature. The vast majority of people have no interest in PvP. They don't even want to know it exists and requiring them to go to PvP areas to get PvE stuff will just cause them to leave and go to another game. You can bet that Cryptic and PWE would not do that. The impact of putting PvE content in PvP areas is pretty well known.
More than a little antaganistic are you not?
The loot drops are random in Kerrat. The zone offers no definitive reward except DL for doing the mission related to it.
If you are farming Kerrat to get certain items you choose to do so on the dice roll that you may get what you seek. Better to buy what you desire from the Exchange and remain safe, as no one is forcing you to play in Kerrat. Only your desire for a possibility at getting usable very rare drop is the only thing making you farm kerrat. The game does not require it.
Challenge, where did I mention challenge? If you wish for a continued casual level of gameplay with high rewards then do not venture into areas that require risk for rewards instead of the casual gameplay you value.
Do not presume that your gameplay idea is the only choice that needs to be allowed. Not everyone agrees.
Though I do find it funny that in a game of 99% casaul play, one norequired pvp mission and pvpe zone causes so much strive when it can be easily ignored by those whom dislike pvp.
What it sounds like, is that it's not PvP you have a problem with, it's LOSING.
^This is the attitude that makes people dislike PVPers. "Anyone who doesn't want to spend time in PVP entertaining me must be some kind of coward!" This is far more galling to many people than some guy typing in all-caps in a PVE match (usually, all that means is that he's going to stop sucking long enough for you to go and get the optional done yourself).
In fact, I do PVP with people in my fleet on occasion, and I have a decent DPS build (not the very top, but I pull my weight).
My problem with PVP is that it just honestly isn't very good. The Halo-style arenas are boring. Kerrat is so bad the devs have considered nuking it. Even when I work up enough interest to even bother caring, I can't get satisfaction out of it. The learning curve is far too steep. There are just too many things that flat-out don't work in PVP, or require far too much effort to get to work properly for me to bother with. Way too many of the abilities can be easily neutralized, while flat-DPS is nearly impossible for some ships to counteract.
The two factions are too different and neither really has much of a feel for the capabilities of the other. Feds think the KDF is OP, but if you give them a superior KDF ship in the form of the Avenger, they can't figure it out and think that it sucks (same with the KDF and the Bortas). This leads to all sorts of screwy advice on building ships that I honestly can't work up the effort to sort out.
There's too much of a focus on cookie-cutter builds and using voice chat annoys me and distracts from the game experience, yet a lot of people require it. The game is not balanced for PVP and the idea that we can rebalance the whole game at this point just to satisfy PVPers is absurd at this point. Even if you did, there's no compelling rewards for PVP or any reason to bother with it at all. I don't hate losing in PVP because it doesn't feel all that different from winning. It's far too much effort and far too little reward.
I'll admit, all these problems are proof that PVP does need an upgrade, but it's ludicrous to think that it could all be fixed, all at once, in a single season just like that. They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
^This is the attitude that makes people dislike PVPers. "Anyone who doesn't want to spend time in PVP entertaining me must be some kind of coward!" This is far more galling to many people than some guy typing in all-caps in a PVE match (usually, all that means is that he's going to stop sucking long enough for you to go and get the optional done yourself).
In fact, I do PVP with people in my fleet on occasion, and I have a decent DPS build (not the very top, but I pull my weight).
My problem with PVP is that it just honestly isn't very good. The Halo-style arenas are boring. Kerrat is so bad the devs have considered nuking it. Even when I work up enough interest to even bother caring, I can't get satisfaction out of it. The learning curve is far too steep. There are just too many things that flat-out don't work in PVP, or require far too much effort to get to work properly for me to bother with. Way too many of the abilities can be easily neutralized, while flat-DPS is nearly impossible for some ships to counteract.
The two factions are too different and neither really has much of a feel for the capabilities of the other. Feds think the KDF is OP, but if you give them a superior KDF ship in the form of the Avenger, they can't figure it out and think that it sucks (same with the KDF and the Bortas). This leads to all sorts of screwy advice on building ships that I honestly can't work up the effort to sort out.
There's too much of a focus on cookie-cutter builds and using voice chat annoys me and distracts from the game experience, yet a lot of people require it. The game is not balanced for PVP and the idea that we can rebalance the whole game at this point just to satisfy PVPers is absurd at this point. Even if you did, there's no compelling rewards for PVP or any reason to bother with it at all. I don't hate losing in PVP because it doesn't feel all that different from winning. It's far too much effort and far too little reward.
I'll admit, all these problems are proof that PVP does need an upgrade, but it's ludicrous to think that it could all be fixed, all at once, in a single season just like that. They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
Thank you for saying what you did first. It says it better than I could have, frankly. I have less patience for these guys and might not have put it so nicely.
I could, for example, invert the very post you responded to: "It's not that they want PVP, they want to gank the unwilling!"
To those who have said they do not want to PvP to get PvE gear I thus say...
I agree.
But...on the other side of the equation, why must those who PvP be forced to do lots of PvE for their gear? (through things like rep and fleet holdings)
Not only do those create a very large barrier into PvP, it really doesn't make anyone happy since for PvPers, it's ANOTHER thing to grind through, more power creep to deal with, etc. For PvE, with each new holding and rep, it seems like there is less and less story (which sometimes the story CAN be good. I point you to most of the KDF missions, both old and new), and just the grind. Heck, the Dyson rep barely has any story at all, outside the DOFF missions and the cut scenes at each tier.
Less and less I see it as PvE vs PvP, or Fed vs KDf, etc, but more like the whole entire game is just getting more and more weighed down.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Comments
Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Why would I ever want to PvE with someone with your attitude anyway?
Enough of them are.
There are definitely more a-holes in STF queues, because there are more people period in the STF queues than in PVP.
Thing is, your new guy is probably going to figure out how to do Cure Elite pretty quickly and easily in spite of the abuse.
If I want to complete that daily in the PVP zone, I'd better be ready to drop either hundreds of dollars or months of my time to set up that one JHAS/Marion/Aux2Bat/five purple MKXII tac console build on my characters so I stand a chance at competing, and be prepared to alter it whenever things get buffed/nerfed. I really don't care to do that.
So, I'll ignore that, and in two months the PVP people will be complaining about how nothing's a challenge anymore and PVP is ruined (again).
Keep PVP in it's own area, give it it's own unique rewards, and simply disallow any PVE stuff that's OP (if they'd made the tractor mines unavailable in PVP instead of nerfing them, we wouldn't be having this conversation).
Maybe, in the same sense that players make irrational complaints about the PvE game. As for this being the case for PvP, I'm not sure on what else you are basing the prediction, as that scenario has yet to appear in this game in regard to PvP.
The PVP forum thinks that every new change is the one that's ruined PVP forever.
Even the PVP forum jokes about that.
And this is my point. This game isn't balanced for PvP. Everyone who plays a good PvP game knows that there can't be any power creep, or best strat, item, or character. But in this game the "bests" are quite obvious.
At the very least, there needs to be complete dual-speccing in this game before we do this.
And one look at how that's worked out so far is why so many PvE players are against spending more developer time on PvP for the small minority.
There need to be a lot of things before PvP will be valid.
This it's a waste of time when we need decent and meaningful story line updates. I don't want more fluff and resource sink content. LOR was decent as was the FE that introduced season 8. However, I felt let down by the current season and it's been 2409 since launch it's time for 2410, to end the pointless Klingon fed war, and to branch the main story out. PvP is something I just don't care about.
Yep. There's one stamping its feet around here now, yelling "It's teh opshunal, d00d!"
You say that like STO is the way it is currently, because PvP has been given attention. It really has not.
In any event, it's really not the first time a majority has ignored the needs of a minority is it?
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one.
/thread
It happens.
The problem that a lot of people don't realize, is that PvP has the potential to make this game absolutely legendary.
Ah. This must be an example of what people mean when they say the PvE community is made of nicer people who do not smack-talk as much.
Is it any wonder so many gamers, not just here but elsewhere, seem to have an almost violent over-reaction against that simple yet noble notion?
Case in point, self-declared "elite" players, be they raiders in PVE settings, e-sport MLG types in PVP, or the like. Where all that matters is they get a lot of attention and special perks and exclusive content.
A lot of the pvpers that posted here in this very thread seemed to have the same attitude. "I don't care what most of the players do. They are beneath my notice and are probably afraid of how elite I am. I demand that they are forced to pvp me so I can gank those noobs!"
Please, point out exactly one instance of anyone saying that.
It's not that silly. It's that PvP offers a unique experience that PvE simply isn't capable of.
No computer can TRIBBLE up the way a human can, that is a fact.
Spare me the deconstructionist nonsense.
The playerbase apparently craves to be around the people peddling PVP in this thread so badly that the PVPers in this thread apparently want to make it mandatory or coerce participation.
The PVPers are not doing a very good job selling the idea if this thread is all they have so far.
A hint: insulting people you're supposedly trying to sell an idea to (such as the OP, all the way up to and including the title) is likely to be taken as flamebait. Or a lot of chest-beating and self-congratulation.
The loot drops are random in Kerrat. The zone offers no definitive reward except DL for doing the mission related to it.
If you are farming Kerrat to get certain items you choose to do so on the dice roll that you may get what you seek. Better to buy what you desire from the Exchange and remain safe, as no one is forcing you to play in Kerrat. Only your desire for a possibility at getting usable very rare drop is the only thing making you farm kerrat. The game does not require it.
Challenge, where did I mention challenge? If you wish for a continued casual level of gameplay with high rewards then do not venture into areas that require risk for rewards instead of the casual gameplay you value.
Do not presume that your gameplay idea is the only choice that needs to be allowed. Not everyone agrees.
Though I do find it funny that in a game of 99% casaul play, one norequired pvp mission and pvpe zone causes so much strive when it can be easily ignored by those whom dislike pvp.
R.I.P
Don't you mean "show me one more?" Or is this your way of revealing that the next one will be treated with the same "aside from the OP" brush-off?
^This is the attitude that makes people dislike PVPers. "Anyone who doesn't want to spend time in PVP entertaining me must be some kind of coward!" This is far more galling to many people than some guy typing in all-caps in a PVE match (usually, all that means is that he's going to stop sucking long enough for you to go and get the optional done yourself).
In fact, I do PVP with people in my fleet on occasion, and I have a decent DPS build (not the very top, but I pull my weight).
My problem with PVP is that it just honestly isn't very good. The Halo-style arenas are boring. Kerrat is so bad the devs have considered nuking it. Even when I work up enough interest to even bother caring, I can't get satisfaction out of it. The learning curve is far too steep. There are just too many things that flat-out don't work in PVP, or require far too much effort to get to work properly for me to bother with. Way too many of the abilities can be easily neutralized, while flat-DPS is nearly impossible for some ships to counteract.
The two factions are too different and neither really has much of a feel for the capabilities of the other. Feds think the KDF is OP, but if you give them a superior KDF ship in the form of the Avenger, they can't figure it out and think that it sucks (same with the KDF and the Bortas). This leads to all sorts of screwy advice on building ships that I honestly can't work up the effort to sort out.
There's too much of a focus on cookie-cutter builds and using voice chat annoys me and distracts from the game experience, yet a lot of people require it. The game is not balanced for PVP and the idea that we can rebalance the whole game at this point just to satisfy PVPers is absurd at this point. Even if you did, there's no compelling rewards for PVP or any reason to bother with it at all. I don't hate losing in PVP because it doesn't feel all that different from winning. It's far too much effort and far too little reward.
I'll admit, all these problems are proof that PVP does need an upgrade, but it's ludicrous to think that it could all be fixed, all at once, in a single season just like that. They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
Thank you for saying what you did first. It says it better than I could have, frankly. I have less patience for these guys and might not have put it so nicely.
I could, for example, invert the very post you responded to: "It's not that they want PVP, they want to gank the unwilling!"
I agree.
But...on the other side of the equation, why must those who PvP be forced to do lots of PvE for their gear? (through things like rep and fleet holdings)
Not only do those create a very large barrier into PvP, it really doesn't make anyone happy since for PvPers, it's ANOTHER thing to grind through, more power creep to deal with, etc. For PvE, with each new holding and rep, it seems like there is less and less story (which sometimes the story CAN be good. I point you to most of the KDF missions, both old and new), and just the grind. Heck, the Dyson rep barely has any story at all, outside the DOFF missions and the cut scenes at each tier.
Less and less I see it as PvE vs PvP, or Fed vs KDf, etc, but more like the whole entire game is just getting more and more weighed down.