lol I wasn't complaining, they even said themselves it was going to be a small season. Was just saying a season when they weren't coming off of a major expansion like with LoR, that they could do a season with a new reputation/fleet holding, and then do some work on pvp, foundry, etc. I only threw in a reference to bug fixes because a lot of people say that. But honestly, there's plenty of lists of bugs out there, I don't need to make another one. Besides, I don't think the game is as buggy as most make it out to be.
From an art direction and production level, I was pretty impressed with this "small" season myself. The massive structures and multiple new maps with interwoven pick-up-missions may be easy to not appreciate, but for me it was a nice offering, even if I've done just about all of it already.
Otherwise, I do see what you're getting at and agree.
Let's go back for a moment to the original post that you responded to, and then your response-which was a misuse of an english language term that has a specific meaning, followed by your inaccurate characterization to try and force it (the post) into meaning what you wanted it to...
Then, we'll get on to your specific attack on my personal character (don't worry, I'm not offended, this is, after all the internet) after quoting my (admittedly rambling) reply to Bitemepwe.
Tracking so far? Excellent. (I assume you are.)
Now, in your convo with B (let's shorten that so we don't get carpal tunnel), you opened with "The needs of the many..." to which, he pointed out the fundamental hypocrisy of the majority using that to justify their hostility to the minority, and, indeed, the hypocrisy with which that (and similar slogans) are used.
You proceeded to use extremely individual actions. He points out that Altruism isn't Altruism if it's forced, I expanded on that...probably unnecessarily.
hokay, now...
everyone caught up? good.
NOW, back MY self-centred TRIBBLE, I used a quote from a movie that was probably popular before you were born (I'm presuming you're well educated, but you show a surfeit of understanding your education...that usually derives from youth...), you seem to think I got it off the Internet-this is also an indication of youth, since SOME OF US didn't grow up with Reddit, Facebook, and Youtube, and therefore don't have to rely on the Internetz for our ripping off of old movies quotes.
The original point made, still stands-a hell of a lot of PvE advocates are actively hostile to anyone who PvP's, witness the responses on this thread, not fearful, Hostile, and many of them DO advocate the idea that their way is the only acceptable way to handle the IP we're discussing (the STO MMO).
I challenged you to find one additional post from a PvP advocate that pushes a similar "Force them to play our game our way" attitude. That being because I essentially agree that the OP's post can be read in exactly THAT WAY.
Whether it was meant in that way or not, it IS readable that way.
YOU demonstrated your failure to do so, by the use of argument-by-dismissal and misuse of a term with specific meaning that did not apply to the post you were replying to.
You have subsequently demonstrated the accuracy of that original point, in your subsequent responses to several other posters.
Including, but not exclusive, to myself, as well as your additional use of mild character slur as another form of argumentation.
now, are we back on the same page?
Nope, sorry. Eyes are glazing over. Seeing too much condescending phraseology to follow here. It must be gratifying to type out but it only sends the signal of "more petty personal attacks incoming, skip to next line."
Problem is I skipped so many lines, without the motivation to see if there's anything useful, relevant, or even applicable to the thread at this point that at this time it's wasted effort.
Rant and throw a tantrum at me if you wish, but frankly I doubt I'm missing much here.
Does anyone know actually how many "coders" they have on staff?
I was frankly shocked to find out in a post by Geko that they finally hired a 3rd ship modeler, since most of the game revolves around ship combat I expected them to have at least 4-5 staff capable of doing that. :eek:
If we are talking revamps and improvements how about they throw the KDF a costume or two while giving PVP some more game types and maps to play with, I'll venture a guess that there are more KDF players than there are PVP'ers from both factions.
Anyways primary concern for some PVE only players would be if they could be drawn into a PVP scenario against their choosing while traveling thru sector space other than that, which is not too likely at present I hope the KDF and PVP both get some love in the future.
Still a bit over sensitive I see. Did a PvPer wrong you in some fashion?
I ask because you assume I'm selfish because I did not agree with the phrase "the needs of the many..." and you continue to be very hostile even when I give my reasoning of why I do not believe in a blnd adherance to " the needs of the many..." when it comes to pvp resources being allotted by the Devs.( or even life for that matter)
Whats next? Shall you call me a racist because I dont agree with your viewpoint? A Terrorist, for agreeing with another poster on more PvP being a good thing in STO? At what point do you stop acting the wounded poster when people simply refuse to agree with your point of view? At what point will you actually offer evidence of why your point of view should be the law of the game rather than just spouting the same rhetoric everytime I or anyone differs from it?
You do have a point other than you hate pvp, do you not?
As to tough guy on the internet, I agree with one poster and disagreed with another which caused you to have a hissy fit. At no point have I declared my self tough or otherwise. I'm merely defending my position.
You too easily took offense, not me.
aah, damn, you don't want to play anymore. It was just starting to get fun.
A lot of things you might find fun I might find boring. Such as PVP in this game.
If I want to PVP there's much better games to do it in. As I mentioned before, Planetside 2. Heck, Old Republic is somehow more tolerable and it gets a horrible reputation.
I think for me the difference comes down to "in this game, there's a gear-based PVP statistic and definitely favors the guy that knows his power rotations better. In the other game, it's all about absolute templates of power rotation that make one guy utterly useless and the other just about invincible outside of a narrow band of preperation and experience."
Simpler version: In Old Republic, if you suck at PVP, or have poor gear, you can at least damage the other guy, slow an advance, hold a control point a hint longer. In this game, PVP involves utter annihilation and one sided failure cascades.
There, I even brought it back on topic. You're welcome.
Still a bit over sensitive I see. Did a PvPer wrong you in some fashion?
I ask because you assume I'm selfish because I did not agree with the phrase "the needs of the many..." and you continue to be very hostile even when I give my reasoning of why I do not believe in a blnd adherance to " the needs of the many..." when it comes to pvp resources being allotted by the Devs.( or even life for that matter)
Whats next? Shall you call me a racist because I dont agree with your viewpoint? A Terrorist, for agreeing with another poster on more PvP being a good thing in STO? At what point do you stop acting the wounded poster when people simply refuse to agree with your point of view? At what point will you actually offer evidence of why your point of view should be the law of the game rather than just spouting the same rhetoric everytime I or anyone differs from it?
You do have a point other than you hate pvp, do you not?
Ah, you're using the "show us on the doll where (concept) touched you" insult meme.
Looking at the last few pages and the last few PVP supporters in this thread (yes, some exceptions apply), it truly is no wonder why, I quote, "PVE'ers fear a PVP revamp".
Look at these guys. I don't want to play with them. Not many would.
Heck, I don't think I'd enjoy seeing them in zone chat in Earth Spacedock/Qo'nos for that matter. It'd be an echo chamber of "WAAAAGH ALTRUISM IS A LIE THE PEASANTS FEAR US" and the like.
Does anyone know actually how many "coders" they have on staff?
I don't have any idea of the breakdown, but if I recall correctly, I saw a blurb on a PWE website that stated there were 160 employees at the Cryptic, Los Gatos, facility.
And here, you describe exactly what those of us IN the PvP community are concerned with when the discussion goes to the concept of 'balance'. You have no idea, I suspect, how many PvP players would agree with your analysis...if not your solution.
No, I actually intended that post to be as reasonably and concilatory as possible. As a pvper (not in this game, at least, not for the last year of it due to the start of the "super rotation invincible template theorycrafting" shenanigans) in several other games, I do have a stake, an interest, in a fun PVP game.
They even added 4 on 4 arenas in Old Republic that are actually a lot of fun compared to Voidstar or Alderaan (soft spot for Huttball and still like it but I digress).
My problem is that in this game, the particular agenda, the particular mindset of the most vocal pvpers on this forum, is toxic. It's not just toxic now, it was toxic way back before launch where pvp was just discussed in THEORY on how it should be done.
I actually had a blast way back in the day simply darting with my bird of prey to poke for weaknesses at "fedballs" spitting mines and waiting for one of us to decloak first. But that wasn't good enough for the self-described "hardcore" who wanted full PVP, everywhere, to hell with if it made sense to gank in front of Earth Spacedock. They wanted lootable items from victims inventory. Some wanted permadeath!
As I said, toxic. Hardly persuasive, obnoxious, and quite loud. And, thankfully, a minority.
I don't agree with your analysis here. As in, "I'm pretty sure you're wrong". Whether it's misinterpretation on purpose, or just misunderstanding, I don't know and won't speculate, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong here.
I lost track of what I might be wrong about, but I will stand by this:
A PVP revamp at this time, with the game we have, with the limited staff Cryptic has, is a gamble at best and almost certainly a drain of time, resources, and money that is better used elsewhere.
If the word "altruism" is so dirty to some of the 4chan-borne internet elite, I'll use the term "bad business." Moan all you want, but it's bad business to chase after theoretical customers, especially ones so notoriously fickle that they might not even come even if you build something for them.
They're better off tending to the most of the customers they already have. And that's not likely to change, especially when the method of persuasion seems to be about insulting as many of the unwashed rabble that PVE as you can.
Ah, you're using the "show us on the doll where (concept) touched you" insult meme.
Do you have anything else a little fresher?
Merely trying understand why you have such hate for pvp, in STO evidently, that makes you attack other posters when they disagree with you. Something must have spoiled pvp for you in this game but not others, like planetside.
I ask because yours is a not uncommon blnd hate Ive seen often in these forums. An honest question considering you attacked me because I used the word liberal and disagreed with you.
Your hate of the STO pvpervseems rooted in more than just a passing dislike.
lol. Forced Altruism is a lie. Imposing sacrifice on another is not Altruism. The needs of the many do not always out wiegh the needs of the few or the one.
I have no idea where peasants came into the issue.
Merely trying understand why you have such hate for pvp, in STO evidently, that makes you attack other posters when they disagree with you. Something must have spoiled pvp for you in this game but not others, like planetside.
I ask because yours is a not uncommon blnd hate Ive seen often in these forums. An honest question considering you attacked me because I used the word liberal and disagreed with you.
Your hate of the STO pvpervseems rooted in more than just a passing dislike.
Don't play the victim card, especially after all of your previous posturing. It's a little embarassing.
This isn't the best platform for PVP in general, and that is my stance and my position on it, as a person that leveled a KDF character just about entirely on PVP to maximum levels in the very early stages of the game and pushed up another just before KDF PVE content was added.
It would be like expecting Spore to provide a convincing space flight simulation on the level of the X-Wing series. Or, a more recent example, it would be like demanding that EVE Online have an FPS mode outside of the ship, which they DID try to do and so far it's a sloppy mess that's barely even tied in to the mother game, costing a lot of time and money and generally not paying off yet even after many months of attempting to tidy it up.
That's it. Put down the crystal ball and the imaginary psychology degree. I feel this game isn't that fit for PVP and any attempt to do so might not necessarily bring in new players in any appreciable amount, especially at the rate you seem to repulse them. Queues are only getting longer, and in ground PVP, you may as well take night classes at the local college while waiting for the queue to hit.
Whining about "blind hate" is a little off-putting, considering the personal attacks already slung my way that I've shrugged off because I have an opinion and stand by it. I would ask why you have such a particular hatred of PVEers and so many presumptions as to why they are not interested in getting ganked by you, but that would be playing the same stupid game so I'll decline.
lol. Forced Altruism is a lie. Imposing sacrifice on another is not Altruism. The needs of the many do not always out wiegh the needs of the few or the one.
I have no idea where peasants came into the issue.
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed. I suppose I'd get some reaction if this isn't the sort of thing I see every day on messageboards across the internet, not to mention zone chat in ESD. Or Fleet channel in Old Republic. Or warpgate on Indar for that matter.
You're not quite as shocking or remarkable or even upsetting as you make yourself out to be. You made a philosophy of selfishness. Congratulations. So has the dimmer part of a generation.
except I'll disagree with you on the business end...and here's why:
It's not bad business when you have a Captive Audience. Star Trek is a property that's been largely profitable and internationally popular for around fifty years or so.
You can find more people who speak Klingon, worldwide, than Esperanto (comparing two artificial languages here-Klingon was developed by/for fans of the IP, Esperanto was developed by governmental agreements some years earlier.)
It's not the same risk-graph, and in this case, it's not even a risk. Seriously, Dinosaurs with lasers on their heads??
Now, that said, I agree that devoting an entire development cycle only to pvp is a bad idea-just like devoting an entire development cycle to, say, a set of federation-exclusive FE's is a bad idea.
but a far worse idea, is to NOT try to expand and capture additional market share through improvement.
The real debate ends up being 'What to improve'...and I think you're missing out on something else.
B's discussion of 'Altruism' is spot on in pointing out how selfish, as opposed to altruistic, those that tout Altruism often are. The idea isn't dead, he just interprets it as an individual trait, as opposed to treating as a collective trait.
He's not arguing against giving to, or sacrificing for, others-he's arguing against making someone else give to, or sacrifice for others without their consent.
"Consent" implies free will, a willingness, a desire, permission.
Imagine it as the difference between a Volunteer fire department (unpaid but there of their own free will) vs. a Conscripted fire-department (Drafted, forced to be there.)
The Volunteers reason to be there is Altruistic.
The Conscripts' reason for being there is not-it's coerced.
So if your county (or parish, for those Louisiana natives out there) votes to have a Volunteer fire dept. then it's an altruistic group of men doing the fire-fighting.
But, if they vote to conscript firefighters, that does NOT make the County altruistic-they're being generous with someone else's resources, instead of their own.
This is why I think you're wrong in your analysis.
I'll ask one more time. Please save the Ayn Rand for the messageboard choir of your choice. I don't see what purpose it has here.
Either this is some weird coincidence that is not without precedent, or the self-declared PVP elite of this game has some sort of objectivist streak. Which is weird because they are technically asking for a handout from PWE/Cryptic to cater to their minority needs when they seem to be doing just fine making money off of PVE people.
Then again the entire movement is full of all the hypocrisy they seem to complain about in other points of view, all the way back to Ayn Rand collecting Social Security.
psst amalefactor there is a multi-quote option when posting. Please use that when responding to more than one post so you're not making numerous replies
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
wow...you really just don't get it. The point was that it's not altruistic to make someone ELSE sacrifice in your place. Is that too hard a concept?
'Altruism' means SELF sacrifice, not 'Take it on yourself to make others sacrifice'.
There's another word or two for the latter, but making Other People sacrifice is definitely in the range of "SELFISH"-which is fundamentally the polar opposite of altruism.
Using one of your own examples:
When a GI jumps on a grenade to save his buddies-that's Altruism.
When a GI's buddies take a vote and throw him on the Grenade, that's selfish.
NOW do you get it?
What I'm getting is that you're of the mindset that the only way someone will fully, to your satisfaction, understand your point of view is if that person agrees with you.
Again, applying your post to the OP, this libertarian echo chamber is going nowhere and doesn't even have any bearing on the thread anymore.
psst amalefactor there is a multi-quote option when posting. Please use that when responding to more than one post so you're not making numerous replies
Oops!
I think I'm done here anyway. I was all right with arguing about PVP in this game and how important or unimportant it ought to be in future seasons, but this is turning into /pol on 4chan, fast and I think its usefulness as a thread is at an end.
Attacked is the correct term. Though I dont see myself as a victom.
Why attacked? Simply because neither of my two original posts where in response to anything you said.
I responded and agreed with one post about pvp and then to another about the phrase "needs of the many" yet you responded in defense as if I personally wronged you.
Thats attacking someone whom was not involved with you in debate or disagreement.
The fact that you've continued to maligne me as being selfish without proof , to the point that I made a history no less, only shows that you are just an person who enjoys this sort of conflict.
Too bad its all for naught. I still think PvPe is something we need more of in STO and the phrase " The needs of the many" is not always true or whats best.
Stew in the fact that nothing you say has any bearing on my belief in this and it was all because you replied to statements never directed at you in the begining.
lol.
More Fed and Romulan ships,costumes,consoles and other useless items that players buy is what makes pwe so much money on this game - why do anything but what makes you money?? Their business is not about taking risks as we see from season to season - it's adding the same stuff over and over to the same large group of people that buy it.
It's fairly simple - and the captive audience argument for risk taking also works for not risk taking - people don't have any other options for their trek fix - so you can get away with lots of bugs and frickin dinos with lasers on the heads and people still will come back.
At this point I don't know how they could separate New blood from all the sociopaths that like to prey on New players for their individual pleasure. And this is not a sto trend(in fact I find the least amount of these individuals in star trek online - it's pvp community is actually full of many decent and respectful players - could be the trek geek factor there)the amount of sociopaths in American video games - from call of duty to battlefield and others are growing at such an alarming rate that the American mental health society rates sociopaths as the largest grow mental health concern.
It's a complex and huge issue changing PvP and I don't think they ever want to venture down that risky road.
What personel attacks? The worst I have said is you seem to have a blind hate on this subject, and thats just in the last few posts as your replies have become more heated.
So far you insulted what you think is my political view, called me selfish and continued to maligne me while I have merely stated my opinion back in defense as civily as possible.
The idea to only keep the game healthy in the areas that the majority play is a bad one. It's like saying it's healthy to have just a little bit of cancer. A healthy game in all areas will only make the game largely better for everyone. I imagine pvpers spend a generous amount on the game to stay competitive.
When you have appendicitis, its best just to have the appendix out, its not like its required for survival.
Not that I think PvP should be removed, but if it where the impact to the overall game would probably be marginal at best.
I don't care about PVP. So I don't fear it being changed. I had my fill of PVP on another game, so therefor I won't be doing it. I usually avoid PVP like the plague.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
and it's a captive market-that market is people keen on Star Trek, a money-spending-like-a-drunk-sailor portion of that market happens to be Klingon fans. (I can dress up as a starfleet officer for less than fifty bucks at a goodwill-under 25 if I know how to sew, but it costs a frelling mint to make a Klingon costuem and involves makeup and latex...think about it next time you're at ANY sci-fi con.)
And if you got *all* these wannabe Klingons to play STO, the population blip wouldn't even be noticed. You notice these people at a con because they stand out. But unless you can find a hundred thousand of these people and then get them to play STO, it's not the major market you believe it to be.
and the changes that would help PvP (the most) would also help Cryptic's bottom-line in PvE by smoothing performance in co-op play and raiding
It would help PvE balance. There's absolutely no evidence that it would help the bottom line, however. In fact, there's an excellent argument that the opposite is true. Simple example: if the Fleet Assault Cruiser is as good a ship as a JHAS, that would be a significant loss to Cryptic/PWE.
ow, it's good for both, and thus, good for bottom line-certainly a better strategy than trying to think up something "new" then half-assing it for next season.
Actually, what they have been doing so far is working, so there's very little reason for them to change strategies, especially for one ("Fix PvP and you'll be making money hand over fist.") that has failed in other MMOs
Actually, what they have been doing so far is working, so there's very little reason for them to change strategies, especially for one ("Fix PvP and you'll be making money hand over fist.") that has failed in other MMOs
I don't care about PVP. So I don't fear it being changed. I had my fill of PVP on another game, so therefor I won't be doing it. I usually avoid PVP like the plague.
If PvP being dead indicates an MMO will soon die and is a gauge of the general health you might want to know about EQ1. That game had PvP, basically removed it and it is still has a stable subscriber base and that game came out almost 15 years ago now. There is also EQ2 which is about 10 years old now and it is also going pretty well and it has pretty much dead PvP also.
I don't see how PvP is in any way a measure of the health of an MMO especially since it seems in many MMOs the PvP community is pretty much insignificant. I remember I did PvP once in EQ1 to prove a point that the classes where not balanced against each other and could not be balanced against each other.
I accepted the challenge from a warrior while I was playing a necromancer. I rooted him and then applied a bunch of DoTs to him and then sat down just out of reach and waited for him to die. It took several minutes. There was nothing he could do. The point is that in PvE balanced games you don't have classes balanced against each other you have classes balanced with each other against the in game content.
In STO new stuff is going to constantly be added that will completely TRIBBLE up PvP balanced but it is great for PvE stuff where balance is not an issue. Heck if I could fly a borg tactical cube with 20 weapons mounts on it I probably would just for the fun of it. That is one reason that if PvP is going to be successful it needs to be separate. Have its own gear, restrictions etc. The problem is that I doubt that investment would pay for itself but that is up to cryptic and PWE to decide.
PvE should never require doing PvP to get the latest gear and definitely should not have unique PvE usable gear and the same is true in reverse.
Comments
From an art direction and production level, I was pretty impressed with this "small" season myself. The massive structures and multiple new maps with interwoven pick-up-missions may be easy to not appreciate, but for me it was a nice offering, even if I've done just about all of it already.
Otherwise, I do see what you're getting at and agree.
Nope, sorry. Eyes are glazing over. Seeing too much condescending phraseology to follow here. It must be gratifying to type out but it only sends the signal of "more petty personal attacks incoming, skip to next line."
Problem is I skipped so many lines, without the motivation to see if there's anything useful, relevant, or even applicable to the thread at this point that at this time it's wasted effort.
Rant and throw a tantrum at me if you wish, but frankly I doubt I'm missing much here.
I was frankly shocked to find out in a post by Geko that they finally hired a 3rd ship modeler, since most of the game revolves around ship combat I expected them to have at least 4-5 staff capable of doing that. :eek:
If we are talking revamps and improvements how about they throw the KDF a costume or two while giving PVP some more game types and maps to play with, I'll venture a guess that there are more KDF players than there are PVP'ers from both factions.
Anyways primary concern for some PVE only players would be if they could be drawn into a PVP scenario against their choosing while traveling thru sector space other than that, which is not too likely at present I hope the KDF and PVP both get some love in the future.
Good Hunting all
I ask because you assume I'm selfish because I did not agree with the phrase "the needs of the many..." and you continue to be very hostile even when I give my reasoning of why I do not believe in a blnd adherance to " the needs of the many..." when it comes to pvp resources being allotted by the Devs.( or even life for that matter)
Whats next? Shall you call me a racist because I dont agree with your viewpoint? A Terrorist, for agreeing with another poster on more PvP being a good thing in STO? At what point do you stop acting the wounded poster when people simply refuse to agree with your point of view? At what point will you actually offer evidence of why your point of view should be the law of the game rather than just spouting the same rhetoric everytime I or anyone differs from it?
You do have a point other than you hate pvp, do you not?
As to tough guy on the internet, I agree with one poster and disagreed with another which caused you to have a hissy fit. At no point have I declared my self tough or otherwise. I'm merely defending my position.
You too easily took offense, not me.
R.I.P
A lot of things you might find fun I might find boring. Such as PVP in this game.
If I want to PVP there's much better games to do it in. As I mentioned before, Planetside 2. Heck, Old Republic is somehow more tolerable and it gets a horrible reputation.
I think for me the difference comes down to "in this game, there's a gear-based PVP statistic and definitely favors the guy that knows his power rotations better. In the other game, it's all about absolute templates of power rotation that make one guy utterly useless and the other just about invincible outside of a narrow band of preperation and experience."
Simpler version: In Old Republic, if you suck at PVP, or have poor gear, you can at least damage the other guy, slow an advance, hold a control point a hint longer. In this game, PVP involves utter annihilation and one sided failure cascades.
There, I even brought it back on topic. You're welcome.
Ah, you're using the "show us on the doll where (concept) touched you" insult meme.
Do you have anything else a little fresher?
Look at these guys. I don't want to play with them. Not many would.
Heck, I don't think I'd enjoy seeing them in zone chat in Earth Spacedock/Qo'nos for that matter. It'd be an echo chamber of "WAAAAGH ALTRUISM IS A LIE THE PEASANTS FEAR US" and the like.
I don't have any idea of the breakdown, but if I recall correctly, I saw a blurb on a PWE website that stated there were 160 employees at the Cryptic, Los Gatos, facility.
No, I actually intended that post to be as reasonably and concilatory as possible. As a pvper (not in this game, at least, not for the last year of it due to the start of the "super rotation invincible template theorycrafting" shenanigans) in several other games, I do have a stake, an interest, in a fun PVP game.
They even added 4 on 4 arenas in Old Republic that are actually a lot of fun compared to Voidstar or Alderaan (soft spot for Huttball and still like it but I digress).
My problem is that in this game, the particular agenda, the particular mindset of the most vocal pvpers on this forum, is toxic. It's not just toxic now, it was toxic way back before launch where pvp was just discussed in THEORY on how it should be done.
I actually had a blast way back in the day simply darting with my bird of prey to poke for weaknesses at "fedballs" spitting mines and waiting for one of us to decloak first. But that wasn't good enough for the self-described "hardcore" who wanted full PVP, everywhere, to hell with if it made sense to gank in front of Earth Spacedock. They wanted lootable items from victims inventory. Some wanted permadeath!
As I said, toxic. Hardly persuasive, obnoxious, and quite loud. And, thankfully, a minority.
I lost track of what I might be wrong about, but I will stand by this:
A PVP revamp at this time, with the game we have, with the limited staff Cryptic has, is a gamble at best and almost certainly a drain of time, resources, and money that is better used elsewhere.
If the word "altruism" is so dirty to some of the 4chan-borne internet elite, I'll use the term "bad business." Moan all you want, but it's bad business to chase after theoretical customers, especially ones so notoriously fickle that they might not even come even if you build something for them.
They're better off tending to the most of the customers they already have. And that's not likely to change, especially when the method of persuasion seems to be about insulting as many of the unwashed rabble that PVE as you can.
Merely trying understand why you have such hate for pvp, in STO evidently, that makes you attack other posters when they disagree with you. Something must have spoiled pvp for you in this game but not others, like planetside.
I ask because yours is a not uncommon blnd hate Ive seen often in these forums. An honest question considering you attacked me because I used the word liberal and disagreed with you.
Your hate of the STO pvpervseems rooted in more than just a passing dislike.
R.I.P
I have no idea where peasants came into the issue.
R.I.P
Don't play the victim card, especially after all of your previous posturing. It's a little embarassing.
This isn't the best platform for PVP in general, and that is my stance and my position on it, as a person that leveled a KDF character just about entirely on PVP to maximum levels in the very early stages of the game and pushed up another just before KDF PVE content was added.
It would be like expecting Spore to provide a convincing space flight simulation on the level of the X-Wing series. Or, a more recent example, it would be like demanding that EVE Online have an FPS mode outside of the ship, which they DID try to do and so far it's a sloppy mess that's barely even tied in to the mother game, costing a lot of time and money and generally not paying off yet even after many months of attempting to tidy it up.
That's it. Put down the crystal ball and the imaginary psychology degree. I feel this game isn't that fit for PVP and any attempt to do so might not necessarily bring in new players in any appreciable amount, especially at the rate you seem to repulse them. Queues are only getting longer, and in ground PVP, you may as well take night classes at the local college while waiting for the queue to hit.
Whining about "blind hate" is a little off-putting, considering the personal attacks already slung my way that I've shrugged off because I have an opinion and stand by it. I would ask why you have such a particular hatred of PVEers and so many presumptions as to why they are not interested in getting ganked by you, but that would be playing the same stupid game so I'll decline.
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be impressed. I suppose I'd get some reaction if this isn't the sort of thing I see every day on messageboards across the internet, not to mention zone chat in ESD. Or Fleet channel in Old Republic. Or warpgate on Indar for that matter.
You're not quite as shocking or remarkable or even upsetting as you make yourself out to be. You made a philosophy of selfishness. Congratulations. So has the dimmer part of a generation.
I'll ask one more time. Please save the Ayn Rand for the messageboard choir of your choice. I don't see what purpose it has here.
Then again the entire movement is full of all the hypocrisy they seem to complain about in other points of view, all the way back to Ayn Rand collecting Social Security.
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What I'm getting is that you're of the mindset that the only way someone will fully, to your satisfaction, understand your point of view is if that person agrees with you.
Again, applying your post to the OP, this libertarian echo chamber is going nowhere and doesn't even have any bearing on the thread anymore.
Oops!
I think I'm done here anyway. I was all right with arguing about PVP in this game and how important or unimportant it ought to be in future seasons, but this is turning into /pol on 4chan, fast and I think its usefulness as a thread is at an end.
Why attacked? Simply because neither of my two original posts where in response to anything you said.
I responded and agreed with one post about pvp and then to another about the phrase "needs of the many" yet you responded in defense as if I personally wronged you.
Thats attacking someone whom was not involved with you in debate or disagreement.
The fact that you've continued to maligne me as being selfish without proof , to the point that I made a history no less, only shows that you are just an person who enjoys this sort of conflict.
Too bad its all for naught. I still think PvPe is something we need more of in STO and the phrase " The needs of the many" is not always true or whats best.
Stew in the fact that nothing you say has any bearing on my belief in this and it was all because you replied to statements never directed at you in the begining.
lol.
R.I.P
It's fairly simple - and the captive audience argument for risk taking also works for not risk taking - people don't have any other options for their trek fix - so you can get away with lots of bugs and frickin dinos with lasers on the heads and people still will come back.
At this point I don't know how they could separate New blood from all the sociopaths that like to prey on New players for their individual pleasure. And this is not a sto trend(in fact I find the least amount of these individuals in star trek online - it's pvp community is actually full of many decent and respectful players - could be the trek geek factor there)the amount of sociopaths in American video games - from call of duty to battlefield and others are growing at such an alarming rate that the American mental health society rates sociopaths as the largest grow mental health concern.
It's a complex and huge issue changing PvP and I don't think they ever want to venture down that risky road.
So far you insulted what you think is my political view, called me selfish and continued to maligne me while I have merely stated my opinion back in defense as civily as possible.
R.I.P
R.I.P
When you have appendicitis, its best just to have the appendix out, its not like its required for survival.
Not that I think PvP should be removed, but if it where the impact to the overall game would probably be marginal at best.
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And several games have pretty much proved that it's a market largely unaddressable with videogames.
And if you got *all* these wannabe Klingons to play STO, the population blip wouldn't even be noticed. You notice these people at a con because they stand out. But unless you can find a hundred thousand of these people and then get them to play STO, it's not the major market you believe it to be.
People don't want to play Klingons. Anything else is rationalization.
Ok. Now we get to the meat of the matter, which is that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
All true.
But what you ignore is that you have to completely renormalize the entire freaking game.
It would help PvE balance. There's absolutely no evidence that it would help the bottom line, however. In fact, there's an excellent argument that the opposite is true. Simple example: if the Fleet Assault Cruiser is as good a ship as a JHAS, that would be a significant loss to Cryptic/PWE.
Actually, what they have been doing so far is working, so there's very little reason for them to change strategies, especially for one ("Fix PvP and you'll be making money hand over fist.") that has failed in other MMOs
To what other MMOs would you be referring?
Create one mission on each Reputation that requires this single Token.
Have it grant as much Reputation EXP as that Reputations biggest Daily Mission.
Sit back and watch the PvP queues start to fill.
Don't create a PvP Reputation, but do create a set of PvP Vendors and add them to Fleet Starbases and Homeworlds.
On these PvP Vendors, sell weapons and equipment sets from the Mirror Universe for PvP Tokens.
If PvP being dead indicates an MMO will soon die and is a gauge of the general health you might want to know about EQ1. That game had PvP, basically removed it and it is still has a stable subscriber base and that game came out almost 15 years ago now. There is also EQ2 which is about 10 years old now and it is also going pretty well and it has pretty much dead PvP also.
I don't see how PvP is in any way a measure of the health of an MMO especially since it seems in many MMOs the PvP community is pretty much insignificant. I remember I did PvP once in EQ1 to prove a point that the classes where not balanced against each other and could not be balanced against each other.
I accepted the challenge from a warrior while I was playing a necromancer. I rooted him and then applied a bunch of DoTs to him and then sat down just out of reach and waited for him to die. It took several minutes. There was nothing he could do. The point is that in PvE balanced games you don't have classes balanced against each other you have classes balanced with each other against the in game content.
In STO new stuff is going to constantly be added that will completely TRIBBLE up PvP balanced but it is great for PvE stuff where balance is not an issue. Heck if I could fly a borg tactical cube with 20 weapons mounts on it I probably would just for the fun of it. That is one reason that if PvP is going to be successful it needs to be separate. Have its own gear, restrictions etc. The problem is that I doubt that investment would pay for itself but that is up to cryptic and PWE to decide.
PvE should never require doing PvP to get the latest gear and definitely should not have unique PvE usable gear and the same is true in reverse.
I'd even almost go as far as saying that there's barely any point in having different factions other than the leveling content.