The idea to only keep the game healthy in the areas that the majority play is a bad one. It's like saying it's healthy to have just a little bit of cancer. A healthy game in all areas will only make the game largely better for everyone. I imagine pvpers spend a generous amount on the game to stay competitive.
The better pvp is, the more people will play. I love pvp, and I would play it more if there was more to it. If there ever is a pvp reputation, the rewards should be grand in order to attract attention and get people to participate. Fleet vs fleet pvp would be a great thing to implement, something along the lines of the pve battle zones introduced with season 8.
You're ignoring the other realm of what you're saying. The idea of keeping a game healthy by spending an entire publish season catering to an increasingly small minority is a bad one. It would be saying a burn victim is just fine just as long as his face remains presentable.
I've argued in this thread, and others, that PvP requires two mechanisms to revitalise it.
Firstly, a persistent stat tracker. This enables sorting of opponents and also is a requirement of a truely competitive PvP environment.
Secondly, a portal to the foundry for PvP. A way for foundry authors to create PvP scenarios that are joined, not by individuals, but by teams.
The former would be something of a new project, albeit one that would not require every departments full effort. However, the latter is really an extension of noises we've heard from cryptic already regarding giving the foundry a more central role.
Imagine if my first suggestion were ignored but the foundry portal was created.
Very quickly there'd be a lot of new PvP maps. Most would be rubbish, no offence. But many would have excellent features and some would become instant classics.
The lack of maps for PvP would be over and done with forever.
Furthermore, there'd be a relatively constant stream of new content.
After a while though, because we're talking foundry authors here, we'd start seeing attempts to create PvP content with a narrative.
Imagine the following.
A series of maps that tell the story of a recently discovered defunct borg super-cube in the badlands and the race to control it.
The first map is a straight up space battle in the badlands. Fed and KDF trike forces arrive at the same time.
The map ends and a winner is declared when either one side sustains 15 deaths and thus loses or one side manages to access the super-cube via a tricky series of automated defences.
There is a second map in the series, actually two.
The next map in the series is a ground map as both teams fight through the borg super-cude to get to the approprioate node and download the super-secret thingimijig.
However, if Fed won the first map then play the map version which places the Fed team in a slightly more advatageous starting point. The KDf have a tricker time.
If KDF won the first map, then use the second version which places them in the better start point.
A third map could employ the same principle. A space based one where the side that got the thingimijig first (or didnt die 15 times) have to get from one end of a big map to the other. The side that failed map two have to stop them.
And thats just something I thought up while having a cup of tea just now. There are fouindry authors who could take something as simple as a portal that allows teams to play against each other and use that to create whole FE arcs.
Imagine a foundry FE arc that really gets into the Fed/KDF war a lot more.
You're ignoring the other realm of what you're saying. The idea of keeping a game healthy by spending an entire publish season catering to an increasingly small minority is a bad one. It would be saying a burn victim is just fine just as long as his face remains presentable.
I didn't say to use an entire season's resources on it, but there's no excuse not to put something into it. Even the foundry gets some improvements here and there.
I didn't say to use an entire season's resources on it, but there's no excuse not to put something into it. Even the foundry gets some improvements here and there.
Exactly.
PvP, quite frankly, doesnt need a seasons worth of work.
It just needs a bit of serious attention for a while, thats all.
Final thought on this: You're assuming that your own take on things is everyone's take. That's solipsism at best, and doesn't explain why a soldier might jump on a grenade, why adults sometimes adopt children they don't even have a genetic relation to, why even in today's cynical world people still go out of their way to help one another even at a cost to themselves, sometimes dying in the process.
Individuals that come up short when it comes to overall values when they are in a pinch hardly dissolve the very notion of "needs of the many". This isn't just a Vulcan thing. It's in the Egyptian code of Ma'at, it abounds in the Sermon on the Mount, and is a centerpiece of Buddhism.
But you have all the answers because you deconstructed altruism. Right?
Interesting analogies. I never said sacrifice is not a nobile idea when it helps another.
The difference between is your examples are all personel choices made by the individual and not imposed because of a majority versus minority equation.
The Soldier choses to sacrifice to save his comrades, The family chooses to adopt outside their ethnicity to change a life, the individual samaritan chooses to give in the sense of charity.
They all made the choice themselves. No one had it imposed upon them because the majority said that they had to follow their opinion of the common good.
They certainly shouldn't be putting in PVE stuff just to lure in PVE players, until at minimum PVP has had some of it's base flaws addressed and people don't have to choose between having a PVP build and having one they actually enjoy playing.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I really don't care about luring people, who don't want to PvP, into a PvP zone. I would just like some PvE content to provide a context for the PvP. Call it RP-PvP if you like.
And being able to grind out some common resources, while in a PvP zone, would be nice, too. Not anything that you couldn't get anywhere else, mind you. But if, you want to get those common resources in a PvP zone, then expect to become involved in PvP.
And they drop useful stuff just like when you break open a pinata. So even if they whine we don't care because of the good stuff inside. For those that did not drop good stuff they deserved to get blown up for not carrying good stuff.
People don't like losing. Winning, good. Losing, bad. I'm amazed that anyone can try to deny that aspect of human nature.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I really don't care about luring people, who don't want to PvP, into a PvP zone. I would just like some PvE content to provide a context for the PvP. Call it RP-PvP if you like.
And being able to grind out some common resources, while in a PvP zone, would be nice, too. Not anything that you couldn't get anywhere else, mind you. But if, you want to get those common resources in a PvP zone, than expect to become involved in PvP.
Oddly, when I play Planetside 2, a losing fight if its a well-fought and exciting one is still fun and worth my time.
You don't speak for me. Take off your President of the World badge.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Quoting a borrowed meme means nothing but that you have access to an internet connection.
And no, I stand by it. Simply saying "X isn't X. You can't prove X is X" is by definition deconstructionism. It's navel-gazing at best and is smug and useless pontification that can try to tear down things but has a very hard time building them up.
Have an argument of your own and offer it instead of smugly attempting surgery on other people's.
So, you were playing to lose? You found that preferable to winning?
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
I played to have fun and do my best, and that involved both winning and losing. Saying dogmatically "No one likes to lose" and then making your weird claim because I made an exception and said that it's possible to lose and still have fun is silly.
Yes, it's possible to play games and have fun in them, and winning is great, especially if the contest was worthwhile. Losing can be acceptable, even fun, if it was a well played game.
Imposed "Altruism" (where the choice is removed) is often an example of the mob being collectively selfish. (sounds like an oxymoron, but bear with me, it gets worse...)
It's the ultimate example of moral hypocrisy when that happens-and it happens a LOT.
Mobs are made of individuals, see? and again it's often the Majority that announce "Sacrifice is Good" then impose those sacrifices on the minority, reviling said minority if they do not wish to make sacrifices that the majority have imposed upon them.
It's all very democratic (small 'D', not the political party), of course, and in keeping with a "You Sacrifice" reading of such chestnuts as:
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"
"From each according to his ability to each according to his need"
"The will of the People has spoken"
'Separate rights, but Equal Rights"
There is a line where the hypocrisy becomes dangerous, of course, that line's not going to happen in a game, since everyone playing is there voluntarily-unlike government in the real world, where the line not only exists, but can be and often IS crossed with undesirable moral consequences.
but who we are as GAMERS reflects who and what we are as PEOPLE, just as writing, music and art reflect who we are as people, and how we relate to our society.
It's easy to be flippant about someone else's discomfort through a telephone line, it's a bit different in person.
as Gamers, we only interact in the abstract, it's easy to forget that on the other end of that phone line/forum post, there is a real human being-it's a hair too easy to see people on line as kind of an ELIZA module, simulating life without being alive.
and that feeds hypocrisy, it makes it EASY to endorse a tyrannical majority when you are part of that majority, and you really don't see someone else who isn't as 'people'.
as our society has become more and more dependent on long-range interaction, television, and internet links, this trend has worked its way back into reality. People treat Elections like sporting events and Politicians like Athletes belonging to their favourite teams, rather than trying to understand the man himself, or trying to understand what their party's platform and/or mouthpieces are really saying.
Then, they are taken by surprise when "Their" party's man, with his majority, does things in the laws or with his authority, that deeply offend their own beliefs, or do them direct harm.
It's the phenomena of the famous actor/musician and activist being shocked when he gets audited and charged with tax evasion after spending years endorsing...Higher Taxes.
On the surface, their years of advocacy were altruistic-but the truth is that the Altruism was always carrying the unseen caveat; "On someone else".
On the more common level, it's the landowner who complains about property taxes, but votes the same people in year after year, the worker who hates paying income taxes, but demands more and more services, the Law and Order type who resents paying his parking tickets, the so-called Christian who ignores poor people and complains about the homeless, or the social services advocate who won't spend a dime (or a minute of their time) on private charity.
as you said, it isn't altruism if it's imposed from outside. But that Hypocrisy is so common that it more resembles the true state of social interaction, than anything kinder.
And you propose what, then?
No, really, I mean that.
You've poked plenty of holes, declared yourself the grand conquerer of altruism, and what now?
What does any of this have to do with a PVP thread again? Besides maybe trying desperately to inject objectivist dogma where it doesn't belong? Where in all this are we supposed to feel sympathy or the slightest interest in your pvp cause? Arguably it's even less appealing than before because you might start pulling an Ayn Rand in zonechat if I saw you in a PVP zone.
B. That does not describe the character of the posts to which you have applied the term.
I'm so close to getting that third warning.
You're only further cementing the belief many already have here and in-game about what a selfish, obnoxious minority the pvpers are.
The OP got his answer. I think a lot of people are not "afraid" as much as not interested in seeing time and resources being invested in people like you.
I didn't pronounce myself as anything, but thanks for offering the title. I'll put it alongside the epithets I've drawn from...[stopping now before I get dinged]
I find it fascinating you can't provide an effective counter-argument and must resort to slurs on my character. Kind of you to make my point for me, Thank you.
Counter argument to what?
You don't like the idea of "Needs of the Many". That's great for you. Sure, I jabbed you for the ancient practice of justifying your own selfishness, but even so, the longer you go on about this, the further you're derailing the very thread you're claiming to support.
You'd rather this thread continue since you were originally defending it, right?
B. That does not describe the character of the posts to which you have applied the term.
I'm so close to getting that third warning.
One more funny thought about this post:
"I'm not picking things apart in an attempt to render them meaningless. I will pick apart the word used to accuse me of such, and that will show them!"
Do enough disassembly of words and ideas and all you have is a bunch of stuff on the floor.
There was an initial direction revolving around my perception of someone talking out both sides of their mouth, but it flopped hard on top of only being marginally relevant to anything other than whether the term "hypocrisy" might be applicable. Abandoned it.
It's definitely not bringing anyone closer to agreeing with you on anything.
Not really an issue, since I've not (at least not intentionally) put forth anything to agree with. Unless, I suppose, someone were to decide to take issue and claim that my opinion (not caring one whit what they do/don't do with/for PvP) isn't actually my opinion. Y'never know out here on the 'net, right?
I wouldn't mind seeing a PvP season really. Just think about what could be done.
They could do a season of just polishing the game. So finish/revamp pvp, foundry, crafting, exploration, and general bugs, maybe throw in a reputation, and there's a season. Not like Season 8 was particularly large with a lot of content. It was basically just a new reputation and fleet holding.
"a lot" being the small percentage of players whom post on the forums at all.
My beef was only with the egoism of those saying "no" hiding behind a catchphrase that has nothing to do altruism.
I didn't even make that post. Going hog-wild because someone has a different philosophy than yours is kind of funny. It's also funny to complain about someone's "egoism" when what you're peddling is called in some circles "ethical egoism".
If I wanted I could do a thought exercise and ask you: "All right, lets assume your premise that everyone is as selfish as you and just doesn't know it is true. Why have society at all? Is it because we selfishly benefit from apparently-false desires to help one another and to act collectively for common purpose? If that is so, I don't see the problem, illusion or not. Having a society, mired in deceptions and false motivations, beats some real life version of Mad Max, outside of internet tough guy fantasies."
But this thread has nothing to do with any of that. Nor should it. If you want praise for that opinion take it to /pol where it belongs.
It's not just the forums, by the way. Look at PVP queues. Not much interest. I'm not seeing much evidence of it being a good use of developer time or money to cater to your whims, outside of a basic "me me me" premise. Which arguably does take us back to the ethical egoism rant you offered.
They could do a season of just polishing the game. So finish/revamp pvp, foundry, crafting, exploration, and general bugs, maybe throw in a reputation, and there's a season. Not like Season 8 was particularly large with a lot of content. It was basically just a new reputation and fleet holding.
"BUGS FIX THEM" doesn't make much of a list of things to do. It feels good to say but doesn't exactly give a checklist for the devs to go over.
If Season 8 did not have much content for you, I'm wondering what a lot of content would look like for a FREE expansion, and like to know what MMO delivered it on time and on budget, and why you are not playing it right now.
"BUGS FIX THEM" doesn't make much of a list of things to do. It feels good to say but doesn't exactly give a checklist for the devs to go over.
If Season 8 did not have much content for you, I'm wondering what a lot of content would look like for a FREE expansion, and like to know what MMO delivered it on time and on budget, and why you are not playing it right now.
lol I wasn't complaining, they even said themselves it was going to be a small season. Was just saying a season when they weren't coming off of a major expansion like with LoR, that they could do a season with a new reputation/fleet holding, and then do some work on pvp, foundry, etc. I only threw in a reference to bug fixes because a lot of people say that. But honestly, there's plenty of lists of bugs out there, I don't need to make another one. Besides, I don't think the game is as buggy as most make it out to be.
Comments
You're ignoring the other realm of what you're saying. The idea of keeping a game healthy by spending an entire publish season catering to an increasingly small minority is a bad one. It would be saying a burn victim is just fine just as long as his face remains presentable.
I've argued in this thread, and others, that PvP requires two mechanisms to revitalise it.
Firstly, a persistent stat tracker. This enables sorting of opponents and also is a requirement of a truely competitive PvP environment.
Secondly, a portal to the foundry for PvP. A way for foundry authors to create PvP scenarios that are joined, not by individuals, but by teams.
The former would be something of a new project, albeit one that would not require every departments full effort. However, the latter is really an extension of noises we've heard from cryptic already regarding giving the foundry a more central role.
Imagine if my first suggestion were ignored but the foundry portal was created.
Very quickly there'd be a lot of new PvP maps. Most would be rubbish, no offence. But many would have excellent features and some would become instant classics.
The lack of maps for PvP would be over and done with forever.
Furthermore, there'd be a relatively constant stream of new content.
After a while though, because we're talking foundry authors here, we'd start seeing attempts to create PvP content with a narrative.
Imagine the following.
A series of maps that tell the story of a recently discovered defunct borg super-cube in the badlands and the race to control it.
The first map is a straight up space battle in the badlands. Fed and KDF trike forces arrive at the same time.
The map ends and a winner is declared when either one side sustains 15 deaths and thus loses or one side manages to access the super-cube via a tricky series of automated defences.
There is a second map in the series, actually two.
The next map in the series is a ground map as both teams fight through the borg super-cude to get to the approprioate node and download the super-secret thingimijig.
However, if Fed won the first map then play the map version which places the Fed team in a slightly more advatageous starting point. The KDf have a tricker time.
If KDF won the first map, then use the second version which places them in the better start point.
A third map could employ the same principle. A space based one where the side that got the thingimijig first (or didnt die 15 times) have to get from one end of a big map to the other. The side that failed map two have to stop them.
And thats just something I thought up while having a cup of tea just now. There are fouindry authors who could take something as simple as a portal that allows teams to play against each other and use that to create whole FE arcs.
Imagine a foundry FE arc that really gets into the Fed/KDF war a lot more.
The thing is, PvP vs PvE is a false dichotomy.
Each can, in a healthy game, feed into the other.
I didn't say to use an entire season's resources on it, but there's no excuse not to put something into it. Even the foundry gets some improvements here and there.
Exactly.
PvP, quite frankly, doesnt need a seasons worth of work.
It just needs a bit of serious attention for a while, thats all.
I wouldn't mind seeing a PvP season really. Just think about what could be done.
Interesting analogies. I never said sacrifice is not a nobile idea when it helps another.
The difference between is your examples are all personel choices made by the individual and not imposed because of a majority versus minority equation.
The Soldier choses to sacrifice to save his comrades, The family chooses to adopt outside their ethnicity to change a life, the individual samaritan chooses to give in the sense of charity.
They all made the choice themselves. No one had it imposed upon them because the majority said that they had to follow their opinion of the common good.
Its not Altruism when the choice is taken away.
R.I.P
If a power is OP, PvPers do whine.
How about enough to justify qualifying it as "a lot".
Npcs do whine. It is just that we don't listen.
Just like some people get nitpicky about what constitutes evidence against the point they don't have.
NPC's have rights too.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I really don't care about luring people, who don't want to PvP, into a PvP zone. I would just like some PvE content to provide a context for the PvP. Call it RP-PvP if you like.
And being able to grind out some common resources, while in a PvP zone, would be nice, too. Not anything that you couldn't get anywhere else, mind you. But if, you want to get those common resources in a PvP zone, then expect to become involved in PvP.
And they drop useful stuff just like when you break open a pinata. So even if they whine we don't care because of the good stuff inside. For those that did not drop good stuff they deserved to get blown up for not carrying good stuff.
Were you going somewhere with that anyway? It's definitely not bringing anyone closer to agreeing with you on anything.
Oddly, when I play Planetside 2, a losing fight if its a well-fought and exciting one is still fun and worth my time.
You don't speak for me. Take off your President of the World badge.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
So, you were playing to lose? You found that preferable to winning?
Quoting a borrowed meme means nothing but that you have access to an internet connection.
And no, I stand by it. Simply saying "X isn't X. You can't prove X is X" is by definition deconstructionism. It's navel-gazing at best and is smug and useless pontification that can try to tear down things but has a very hard time building them up.
Have an argument of your own and offer it instead of smugly attempting surgery on other people's.
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
I played to have fun and do my best, and that involved both winning and losing. Saying dogmatically "No one likes to lose" and then making your weird claim because I made an exception and said that it's possible to lose and still have fun is silly.
Yes, it's possible to play games and have fun in them, and winning is great, especially if the contest was worthwhile. Losing can be acceptable, even fun, if it was a well played game.
If you can't comprehend that, that is your issue.
A. No, it is not.
B. That does not describe the character of the posts to which you have applied the term.
I'm so close to getting that third warning.
And you propose what, then?
No, really, I mean that.
You've poked plenty of holes, declared yourself the grand conquerer of altruism, and what now?
What does any of this have to do with a PVP thread again? Besides maybe trying desperately to inject objectivist dogma where it doesn't belong? Where in all this are we supposed to feel sympathy or the slightest interest in your pvp cause? Arguably it's even less appealing than before because you might start pulling an Ayn Rand in zonechat if I saw you in a PVP zone.
You're only further cementing the belief many already have here and in-game about what a selfish, obnoxious minority the pvpers are.
The OP got his answer. I think a lot of people are not "afraid" as much as not interested in seeing time and resources being invested in people like you.
Counter argument to what?
You don't like the idea of "Needs of the Many". That's great for you. Sure, I jabbed you for the ancient practice of justifying your own selfishness, but even so, the longer you go on about this, the further you're derailing the very thread you're claiming to support.
You'd rather this thread continue since you were originally defending it, right?
One more funny thought about this post:
"I'm not picking things apart in an attempt to render them meaningless. I will pick apart the word used to accuse me of such, and that will show them!"
Do enough disassembly of words and ideas and all you have is a bunch of stuff on the floor.
My beef was only with the egoism of those saying "no" hiding behind a catchphrase that has nothing to do altruism.
R.I.P
There was an initial direction revolving around my perception of someone talking out both sides of their mouth, but it flopped hard on top of only being marginally relevant to anything other than whether the term "hypocrisy" might be applicable. Abandoned it.
Not really an issue, since I've not (at least not intentionally) put forth anything to agree with. Unless, I suppose, someone were to decide to take issue and claim that my opinion (not caring one whit what they do/don't do with/for PvP) isn't actually my opinion. Y'never know out here on the 'net, right?
They could do a season of just polishing the game. So finish/revamp pvp, foundry, crafting, exploration, and general bugs, maybe throw in a reputation, and there's a season. Not like Season 8 was particularly large with a lot of content. It was basically just a new reputation and fleet holding.
I didn't even make that post. Going hog-wild because someone has a different philosophy than yours is kind of funny. It's also funny to complain about someone's "egoism" when what you're peddling is called in some circles "ethical egoism".
If I wanted I could do a thought exercise and ask you: "All right, lets assume your premise that everyone is as selfish as you and just doesn't know it is true. Why have society at all? Is it because we selfishly benefit from apparently-false desires to help one another and to act collectively for common purpose? If that is so, I don't see the problem, illusion or not. Having a society, mired in deceptions and false motivations, beats some real life version of Mad Max, outside of internet tough guy fantasies."
But this thread has nothing to do with any of that. Nor should it. If you want praise for that opinion take it to /pol where it belongs.
It's not just the forums, by the way. Look at PVP queues. Not much interest. I'm not seeing much evidence of it being a good use of developer time or money to cater to your whims, outside of a basic "me me me" premise. Which arguably does take us back to the ethical egoism rant you offered.
"BUGS FIX THEM" doesn't make much of a list of things to do. It feels good to say but doesn't exactly give a checklist for the devs to go over.
If Season 8 did not have much content for you, I'm wondering what a lot of content would look like for a FREE expansion, and like to know what MMO delivered it on time and on budget, and why you are not playing it right now.
lol I wasn't complaining, they even said themselves it was going to be a small season. Was just saying a season when they weren't coming off of a major expansion like with LoR, that they could do a season with a new reputation/fleet holding, and then do some work on pvp, foundry, etc. I only threw in a reference to bug fixes because a lot of people say that. But honestly, there's plenty of lists of bugs out there, I don't need to make another one. Besides, I don't think the game is as buggy as most make it out to be.