Sci ships are more then drain builds (which based on what the pvp part of the forums was nerfed).
Lets look at what the Vesta can do. Get out of well speced grav wells thank to a console (saving EM, AP:O, and other powers that counter grav well for other things). Avoid siphon drone and other close range attacks by making a force bubble around it self. Dump weapon and still have an ok base attack with it aux cannons. Hell itself and others while buffing the damage of its own grav well against with a console. And here is the best one. Counter the KDF's "best" attack, the evil Alpha-Strike by becoming a perfect shield.
All this without touching other ships for consoles or anything. That is kind of awesome.
Yet hardly anyone uses it. A ships value is measured in how many players actually use it.
The Aux cannons, you only get ONE, you have to buy the bundle pack if you want them to actually be a factor, so its $25 each or three for $50. Gravity Well can be dealt with using Brace for Impact (90% kinetic damage reduction) or Aux to Hull (heals and deff buff, 15 sec cool down doesn't hurt) Force Bubble likewise requires 3 Universal Consoles for $50.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
You can discharge one vests and retrieve it 2 times in order to get more aux cannons.
Ah, didnt know that. Will keep it in mind should I ever actually pick it up lol.
Still we're getting off topic here. The Vesta might be a decent ship, but hardly anyone uses it outside of PvP. Cloak is used in PvP, PvE and storyline play. Its universally useful, even if only just for an Alpha strike to start things off, it adds that extra punch to weaken a touch enemy or pick off a weaker one.
Also as stated at the start of this post, I'm really not pushing for these ships to get a Battle Cloak, just for their basic normal cloaking device, the same one KDF ships come with to be inherent rather than a console.
You cant use it in Red Alert, and if you are playing PvP, odds are you aren't going to get but so much mileage out of it just as the KDF players have stated a number of times on this very thread that Cloak can only really be used once in a PvP match.
Cryptic keep making new ships that push the envelope, making older ships obsolete and in a way stagnating the game. Buffing older ships that still have to be bought gives players an incentive to buy them, making more money.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
You are right. Older ships would use a buff but simply copying someone else is not the right to do it.
Sci ships are getting a buff, if it is anything anti-cloak Starfleet is going to gain a great new weapon again cloakable ships.
Where will this leave the KDF? As said in this the thread drain builds looks to be KDF's biggest weapon for science ships that they only have one of.
So can we try to buff science before storming First City taking everything that is not nailed down?
Again you are looking at this from a pure PvP stance. 95% of players don't do PvP. I only play it when my friends drag me into it. Sci ships? Fed only uses them for PvP, so that's 5% of players who will benefit from the upcoming buff. I have a Nebual and Intrepid, but only use them for PvP, aside from that, they don't have much use.
I get that KDF players want to keep an edge for PvP, power to them. But PvP is the minority. There is nothing, no reward, no prize, no 'shiny' that can be dangled in front of me to ever entice me to willingly play PvP, period. That includes refined Dilithium or even Zen. Its just not worth putting up with the hassle.
So what if I were to suggest these three ships have inherent Cloak in ALL game modes EXCLUDING PvP, where they are required to use the console. Would that be agreeable?
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
So all 3 KDF players that still exist get a free cloak on their new battle cruiser that I need to slot a console for. Fine. I get to fly my Avenger on a fed. I still think I'm winning.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
lol Some of you guys really don't see the big picture, do you? Or it just doesn't support your arguments so you don't want to see it?
(snip)
:rolleyes:
It's often said the guilty party is quick to accuse the other of the very incorrect action they've made to try to shunt fault.
As for the comparison, it is flawed. The DSSV to Varanus is not equal to the Avenger to Mogh, nor does it really reflect the Qin to Defiant even. The proper analog there is the Vo'Quv to Atrox; really, as the Atrox fall short of the Vo'Quv's potential in the same presented way.
The Avenger and Mogh are direct C-store counterparts, just one is worth 'more' because the heavy metal rockers from the dead with lobsters on their heads get it. Otherwise identical ships for the same price.
That's the new rock this topic is being rebuilt upon.
As for the Science Vessel back and forth, it is off-topic guys. Cloaking vessels are what are the issue here, the doors of which have been blown wide open by this latest release.
I'm pretty sure the Devs won't make a buff to sci ships that only help in pvp. They did not with the crusier, carrier, or coming raider buff. Also note. I'm with you about pvp. I do play it but that is a whole other thing all together. What I'm saying is that NO FACTION Starfleet, KDF, or The Republic should have a ship is pure copy of the other. So if you want to buff the ships fine but please could you find another way besides doing that?
I'm pretty sure the Devs won't make a buff to sci ships that only help in pvp. They did not with the crusier, carrier, or coming raider buff. Also note. I'm with you about pvp. I do play it but that is a whole other thing all together. What I'm saying is that NO FACTION Starfleet, KDF, or The Republic should have a ship is pure copy of the other. So if you want to buff the ships fine but please could you find another way besides doing that?
Uh, the Raider buff only helps in PvP, since Fed and Rom don't have Raiders, and apparently KDF players aside from myself only play PvP...would explain why it takes so long to get a PvE going while on my KDF toons I suppose.
The carrier didn't get a buff, it got an overhaul because the pet commands didn't work.
The Cruiser Commands, that's a different story, those simply made Cruiser's viable for play again.
Sci buff will only affect PvP unless its adding an extra weapon slot or Bridge Officer seat, as the ships have no other use.
Aside from that, I fail to see how giving these three ships cloaks makes them copies of the KDF.
The closest equal the Galaxy X has is the Bortasqu' which is still leagues superior thanks to its boff setup.
The Avenger, pound for pound would be close to the Mogh, but still wouldn't be as tough. In a one on one fight against them the Mogh would win due to being tougher.
Defiant and Quin, I will admit would end up being nearly identical. However since the Qin came out LONG after the Defiant, I am willing to chalk this up to being a case of the KDF copying the Federation design. Its not unusual, look at every American and Soviet fighter that came out from the 1970's to the late 1980's, they look identical for a reason lol
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
I'm pretty sure the Devs won't make a buff to sci ships that only help in pvp. They did not with the crusier, carrier, or coming raider buff. Also note. I'm with you about pvp. I do play it but that is a whole other thing all together. What I'm saying is that NO FACTION Starfleet, KDF, or The Republic should have a ship is pure copy of the other. So if you want to buff the ships fine but please could you find another way besides doing that?
A bit late as the Avenger and Mogh are direct copies, the console doesn't prevent the Avenger from being a copy, it just makes it an inferior one. In regards to the other two, the Gal-X still still fairly unique, and the Defiant and Qin an imperfect reflections in stats; changing the console won't make them pure copies of anything else. The Starfleet reliance on a console does nothing to preserve uniqueness, it's just a source of imbalance in the game mechanics as they have evolved to, today. In the past it was negligible, but today, with the level of power-creep in the game, it's old hat.
I commend the motionvement to make science based counters more available, but this thread is about the cloaking device console problem.
A bit late as the Avenger and Mogh are direct copies, the console doesn't prevent the Avenger from being a copy, it just makes it an inferior one. In regards to the other two, the Gal-X still still fairly unique, and the Defiant and Qin an imperfect reflections in stats; changing the console won't make them pure copies of anything else. The Starfleet reliance on a console does nothing to preserve uniqueness, it's just a source of imbalance in the game mechanics as they have evolved to, today. In the past it was negligible, but today, with the level of power-creep in the game, it's old hat.
I commend the motionvement to make science based counters more available, but this thread is about the cloaking device console problem.
Exactly, at minimum a Federation Cloaking Device CONSOLE needs to be equal in viability to the Romulan and KDF Cloaking CONSOLES.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
The Raider buff helps out against bigger NPC like the Voth and alot of the heavier borg ships. Those four front facing weapons and battlecloak is nice but with the level of sci spam the Voth can pull off Raiders will die.
The Stars System for carrier pets made them more powerful and if it was just a case of the commands not working why add those?
Cruisers was not viable based on your own words. The Comm Commands made them viable, again by your own words. That sounds like a buff to me.
Now why is adding more weapons or boff seating the only way to help sci ships in PvE content?
On to the ships, the Bortasqu' is the KDF flagship battlecrusier. It shows off the best of what the KDF can do. I'm would be shocked if Starfleet had anything to match that (That was not made by Section 31).
And the seed of this whole matter, the Avenger vs the Mogh. I'm pretty sure I could at least 5 quotes saying the Mogh is just a copy of the Avenger so can you please tell how the Mogh is tougher then an Avenger with built in cloak?
The last part the Defiant and the Qin. Now if we choose to look at the fleet versions Defiant has one more tactical console, higher turn rating, and higher inertia rating to a few more shield and hull points for the Qin. Based on what people said in this thread those few points mean little. You give the Defiant a built in cloak and it would be better then the Qin, right?
Exactly, at minimum a Federation Cloaking Device CONSOLE needs to be equal in viability to the Romulan and KDF Cloaking CONSOLES.
Lets have some fun with dates.
Can someone tell me the Stardate that Romulans first used cloaking tech?
Next, can someone tell me when the Klingon Empire and Romulans traded tech?
We are almost done, please tell me the Stardate when Starfleet was given a cloaking device by the Romulans?
Last one, tell me how fast did Starfleet understand how cloaking working based on what was left of the Romulan cloaking device after the Dominion war?
Now tell me how Starfleet could make a cloaking device on par with Klingons much less the Romulans?
So what about this? Those 3 ships get a cloaking built in but like I said before but it should not match two factions that for have been cloaking back in the TOS era.
Can someone tell me the Stardate that Romulans first used cloaking tech?
Next, can someone tell me when the Klingon Empire and Romulans traded tech?
We are almost done, please tell me the Stardate when Starfleet was given a cloaking device by the Romulans?
Last one, tell me how fast did Starfleet understand how cloaking working based on what was left of the Romulan cloaking device after the Dominion war?
Now tell me how Starfleet could make a cloaking device on par with Klingons much less the Romulans?
So what about this? Those 3 ships get a cloaking built in but like I said before but it should not match two factions that for have been cloaking back in the TOS era.
Starfleet invented the phase cloak and already had a pretty good understanding of cloaking by the time the romulans gave them that one. They were simply not allowed to make a cloak again after the phase cloak due to a treaty with the romulans however that treaty is null and void as of the hobus explosion.
Can someone tell me the Stardate that Romulans first used cloaking tech?
Next, can someone tell me when the Klingon Empire and Romulans traded tech?
We are almost done, please tell me the Stardate when Starfleet was given a cloaking device by the Romulans?
Last one, tell me how fast did Starfleet understand how cloaking working based on what was left of the Romulan cloaking device after the Dominion war?
Now tell me how Starfleet could make a cloaking device on par with Klingons much less the Romulans?
So what about this? Those 3 ships get a cloaking built in but like I said before but it should not match two factions that for have been cloaking back in the TOS era.
First time a Romulan ship cloaked: 2152
First time a Klingon ship cloaked: Stardate 5267.2
First time a Federation ship cloaked: Stardate 5027.3
Huh, would you look at that, the Federation has been able to cloak longer than the Klingons.
You forget that they didn't just have that old piece of junk from 'The Enterprise Incident' in TOS, they also had the USS Bounty from The Voyage Home, Kirk used it as leverage in bartering for their actions in The Search For Spock I believe.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Also there is the likelihood of the Romulan Republic and Starfleet having a Lend-Lease program going on. Starfleet provides the Republic ships and crews to help them maintain their borders; in turn they could be receiving cloaking devices to mount on approved ship classes.
But again, this is lore, which ultimately should not be a factor in game mechanics balance. When you let Lore affect game mechanics and game mechanics influence Lore, the game just becomes a horrid wreck.
Starfleet invented the phase cloak and already had a pretty good understanding of cloaking by the time the romulans gave them that one. They were simply not allowed to make a cloak again after the phase cloak due to a treaty with the romulans however that treaty is null and void as of the hobus explosion.
*reads the Path of 2409* This says otherwise about the whole Treaty thing. It's still going strong. Also, I'm sure the Federation had a good understanding of how to counter cloaked ships but making their own cloaking devices? The only three ships used by Starfleet (and not Section 31) are known to have cloaking tech and two of them blow up so yes. Use Starfleet cloaking devices on your ships and leave the other factions alone.
*reads the Path of 2409* This says otherwise about the whole Treaty thing. It's still going strong. Also, I'm sure the Federation had a good understanding of how to counter cloaked ships but making their own cloaking devices? The only three ships used by Starfleet (and not Section 31) are known to have cloaking tech and two of them blow up so yes. Use Starfleet cloaking devices on your ships and leave the other factions alone.
Ahem
But again, this is lore, which ultimately should not be a factor in game mechanics balance. When you let Lore affect game mechanics and game mechanics influence Lore, the game just becomes a horrid wreck.
There we go. You can not justify game imbalance with lore. Otherwise by all accounts Starfleet should have an 'come up with ingenious solution to fix this problem' console they can push for an instant win. :rolleyes:
*reads the Path of 2409* This says otherwise about the whole Treaty thing. It's still going strong. Also, I'm sure the Federation had a good understanding of how to counter cloaked ships but making their own cloaking devices? The only three ships used by Starfleet (and not Section 31) are known to have cloaking tech and two of them blow up so yes. Use Starfleet cloaking devices on your ships and leave the other factions alone.
Uh, I think I can prove the Federation knew how Cloaking technology works dude
That wasn't a Romulan bolt on, it was Federation built.
Also in relation to the Cloaking Consoles from the Defiant and Galaxy X:
Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Can someone tell me the Stardate that Romulans first used cloaking tech?
That was Balance of Terror set in the 2260s
Next, can someone tell me when the Klingon Empire and Romulans traded tech?
That was just soemthing people assumed but was never stated onscreen.
We are almost done, please tell me the Stardate when Starfleet was given a cloaking device by the Romulans?
They stole one in the 2260s aka The Enterprise Incident.
Last one, tell me how fast did Starfleet understand how cloaking working based on what was left of the Romulan cloaking device after the Dominion war?
They knew enough to build a working phase cloaking device back when the Klingons and Romulans were still trying to see if it was possible and before the Romulans tried their failed prototype. Not to mention knowing enough to come up with cloaking countermeasures.
Now tell me how Starfleet could make a cloaking device on par with Klingons much less the Romulans?
So what about this? Those 3 ships get a cloaking built in but like I said before but it should not match two factions that for have been cloaking back in the TOS era.
Yeah, because taking The Pegasus into account they should have the ability to create superior cloaking technology by this point.
There we go. You can not justify game imbalance with lore. Otherwise by all accounts Starfleet should have an 'come up with ingenious solution to fix this problem' console they can push for an instant win. :rolleyes:
*Eyes Reverse Shield Polarity, Eject Warp Plasma, Tractor Beam, Charged Particle Burst, Photonic Shockwave, Attack Pattern Beta, mines, Antimatter Spread, Ionized Gas Sensor, Metreon Gas Canisters, Tachyon Detection Field, and Tachyon Detection Grid* There are no ingenious solutions to counter cloaked ships. You are right and I'm wrong. CLOAKS FOR EVERYBODY!
*Eyes Reverse Shield Polarity, Eject Warp Plasma, Tractor Beam, Charged Particle Burst, Photonic Shockwave, Attack Pattern Beta, mines, Antimatter Spread, Ionized Gas Sensor, Metreon Gas Canisters, Tachyon Detection Field, and Tachyon Detection Grid* There are no ingenious solutions to counter cloaked ships. You are right and I'm wrong. CLOAKS FOR EVERYBODY!
No competent BoP pilot gets caught by warp-plasma, tractor beams have long been useless with APO and require the target already decloaked. DEM will punch through RSP. CPB and PS are good when you know the target is in range; otherwise you just waste a cooldown. Mines are only remotely a threat, as Brace nullifies kinetic so well. As the core argument of the whole thread is the cloak console is a hindrance in today's balance, listing more universal consoles as counters is just silly.
Cloaks for everyone, what a gross over-exaggeration. It's balancing cloaking for three ships which already have it with all the other ones that can without a console. That's it.
No competent BoP pilot gets caught by warp-plasma, tractor beams have long been useless with APO and require the target already decloaked. DEM will punch through RSP. CPB and PS are good when you know the target is in range; otherwise you just waste a cooldown. Mines are only remotely a threat, as Brace nullifies kinetic so well. As the core argument of the whole thread is the cloak console is a hindrance in today's balance, listing more universal consoles as counters is just silly.
Cloaks for everyone, what a gross over-exaggeration. It's balancing cloaking for three ships which already have it with all the other ones that can without a console. That's it.
I was mocking and I'm sorry for that but let me break down biggest "flaw" I see with your idea for cloaking for those 3 ships.
The Galaxy: Me and others said the Galaxy could use a buff and that is one way they could go about it. I'm willing to work there.
The fed battlecrusier: There should more of a push of not making them the same then anything. I say give it more hull or a higher shield mod. There is a loophole about its cloaking tech in STO's canon and I think it should stay.
Now this one, the Defiant, This thread showed me why I should hate what DS9 did to the Federation. Don't worry. I won't go into a rant about that. Now just the stats.
You could call the Defiant one of the best escorts in Starfleet. Put the cloaking console on it and it becomes a raptor. You put it in an tac slot and you got a pretty good copy of the Qin.
How many people do that? Like everyone said this thread PvE is a DPS race so why nerf your killing power.
Now lets compare your Defiant to the normal Qin.
Hull vs Hull: 36,300 for the Qin takes the win next to the Defiant's 33,000. Just 3,300 hull. Barely nothing based on what I heard in this thread.
Shields: Qin again with 4,807 takes it compared to Defiant's 4,703. That is worse the hull.
Now weapons: It is a tie but if you want to fleet weapons thank to the fact that the KDF got elite dis-Wait. Both factions can use Elachi weapons that has just about the same proc so tie.
Crew (Which everyone says is broken): Defiant's is on an roll with its 50 to the small army of 200 that is inside the Qin.
We are getting to the juicy parts, battle stations! It's a tie! Both of these can dish out great levels of tactical attacks.
Next we have consoles: Same 10 but what is this? The Defiant carries 5 tactical slots? That is a whole 33% boost to damage I think. Wow! Now lets see what the Qin can do....it has one more eng slot then the Defiant! It could use those to damage re-wait diminishing returns kills that. Well it could boost it heali-wait. With its oh so tactical boff layout where is any real healing coming from? Well....
I want to stop this now but you see what I'm trying to say. A Defiant with built in cloak becomes the best escort AND raptor ingame. Now please tell me how that is fair?
Actually a DS9 episode had Kor mentioning the KDF acquisition of the first cloaking devices from the Romulans. Since its been said in a series episode doesnt that make it canon?
(being as, y'know, I actually FLY the Bird of Prey as my main in every role).
First, turn off the music. And the Ambient sound.
There, now, hear that noise right before the BoP vapes you? that's him buffing. If you hear that noise, you PSW and guess what? you've not only busted his buff cycle, you've got him-because he can't cloak again for 12-20 seconds, and his buffs are gone for the duration of their cooldown.
he hits evasive, you hit tractor beam-his attack pattern's likely still on cooldown, you can pop yours, then you pop him.
It's so easy-even a FED can do it.
Know what else works? TBR. TBR works on **** that's still cloaked. I haven't even TOUCHED console powers yet, or specific class types that practically made to bust BoPs and other cloakers-this stuff works on Cruisers and escorts.
How do I know this works? because enough Feds have gotten me in Ker'rat doing it, not to mention C&H and Arenas-but they're those REALLY RARE feds-the ones that have learned how to use what they've got, in the manner it's supposed to be used.
captains that skill into sensors and run aux can also spot cloakers. I know, it's again, happened to me enough. Having always-on-shields and great hulls, with better stats in most ranges makes up for not having a whole line of cloaking ships...
if you bother to build and skill for it. MOST Federation players don't-they build and skill for the DPS racing in PvE.
by contrast, the good PvP fleets and teams on the blue side don't have great difficulties taking on cloak-capable opponents, but then, they actually skill to fight them, and use technique instead of trying to buy a win or temper-tantrum in a special new ability they envy-one that they likely don't know how to use anyway.
ask the Pandas how they kill Klingons, or any of the other 'name' Fleets-it's almost never some console gimmick, it's usually just knowing how the game mechanics work.
powers are only useful if your opponent doesn't bother with the in-built counters inherent to the game itself.
You know, like audio ques, running high aux, skilling into sensors, running probes...
This. Flying a BoP against competent opponents is NOT an easy thing. Skilled players know how to fight BoPs, and it's at that point that the BoP is revealed as the vulnerable target it is. The only BoP that really comes close to being truly competitive is the B'rel, because of the enhanced battlecloak. The other Bops have to deal with 24k hull and .88 shield mod for 15-20 seconds of vulnerability (since we're not allowed to reduce our cloak cooldowns) while fighting A2B FAW-spamming cruisers that Feddies whine are 'too weak' and fighting escorts that could kill you in 1-2 attack runs. Even with Tactical Team + EPtS1/EPtS2 up I lose chunks of shield HP every time I get alpha'd by some Fed-Rom attacking me or someone in a Fleet Defiant.
Also, APO can't be up nearly enough to allow you to 'ignore' tractor beams. . .and you can't overlook the effect that subnukes have (i.e., removing your APO and putting all your abilities on a way-long cooldown). Oh, and let's not forget subsystem disabling via target subsystems and Viral Matrix. . .only APO3 will provided resistance to that. Unless you've got the best-of-the-best doffs that are ludicrously expensive that allow you to have 75-90% uptime on APO, you certainly can't forget about the numerous ways you can be disabled.
Also, it's not always easy to dodge warp plasma, especially when someone starts ejecting it while you're directly behind them launching an alphastrike. Again, this is something skilled players can do.
The only thing BoPs are 'OP' against are clueless players who don't bother to learn how to repel BoPs. For the kind of tactics BoPs do, the Romulans are better because THEIR battlecloakers aren't nerfed to mollify whining Feds.
Comments
Yet hardly anyone uses it. A ships value is measured in how many players actually use it.
The Aux cannons, you only get ONE, you have to buy the bundle pack if you want them to actually be a factor, so its $25 each or three for $50. Gravity Well can be dealt with using Brace for Impact (90% kinetic damage reduction) or Aux to Hull (heals and deff buff, 15 sec cool down doesn't hurt) Force Bubble likewise requires 3 Universal Consoles for $50.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Ah, didnt know that. Will keep it in mind should I ever actually pick it up lol.
Still we're getting off topic here. The Vesta might be a decent ship, but hardly anyone uses it outside of PvP. Cloak is used in PvP, PvE and storyline play. Its universally useful, even if only just for an Alpha strike to start things off, it adds that extra punch to weaken a touch enemy or pick off a weaker one.
Also as stated at the start of this post, I'm really not pushing for these ships to get a Battle Cloak, just for their basic normal cloaking device, the same one KDF ships come with to be inherent rather than a console.
You cant use it in Red Alert, and if you are playing PvP, odds are you aren't going to get but so much mileage out of it just as the KDF players have stated a number of times on this very thread that Cloak can only really be used once in a PvP match.
Cryptic keep making new ships that push the envelope, making older ships obsolete and in a way stagnating the game. Buffing older ships that still have to be bought gives players an incentive to buy them, making more money.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Sci ships are getting a buff, if it is anything anti-cloak Starfleet is going to gain a great new weapon again cloakable ships.
Where will this leave the KDF? As said in this the thread drain builds looks to be KDF's biggest weapon for science ships that they only have one of.
So can we try to buff science before storming First City taking everything that is not nailed down?
Again you are looking at this from a pure PvP stance. 95% of players don't do PvP. I only play it when my friends drag me into it. Sci ships? Fed only uses them for PvP, so that's 5% of players who will benefit from the upcoming buff. I have a Nebual and Intrepid, but only use them for PvP, aside from that, they don't have much use.
I get that KDF players want to keep an edge for PvP, power to them. But PvP is the minority. There is nothing, no reward, no prize, no 'shiny' that can be dangled in front of me to ever entice me to willingly play PvP, period. That includes refined Dilithium or even Zen. Its just not worth putting up with the hassle.
So what if I were to suggest these three ships have inherent Cloak in ALL game modes EXCLUDING PvP, where they are required to use the console. Would that be agreeable?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
So all 3 KDF players that still exist get a free cloak on their new battle cruiser that I need to slot a console for. Fine. I get to fly my Avenger on a fed. I still think I'm winning.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
:rolleyes:
It's often said the guilty party is quick to accuse the other of the very incorrect action they've made to try to shunt fault.
As for the comparison, it is flawed. The DSSV to Varanus is not equal to the Avenger to Mogh, nor does it really reflect the Qin to Defiant even. The proper analog there is the Vo'Quv to Atrox; really, as the Atrox fall short of the Vo'Quv's potential in the same presented way.
The Avenger and Mogh are direct C-store counterparts, just one is worth 'more' because the heavy metal rockers from the dead with lobsters on their heads get it. Otherwise identical ships for the same price.
That's the new rock this topic is being rebuilt upon.
As for the Science Vessel back and forth, it is off-topic guys. Cloaking vessels are what are the issue here, the doors of which have been blown wide open by this latest release.
Uh, the Raider buff only helps in PvP, since Fed and Rom don't have Raiders, and apparently KDF players aside from myself only play PvP...would explain why it takes so long to get a PvE going while on my KDF toons I suppose.
The carrier didn't get a buff, it got an overhaul because the pet commands didn't work.
The Cruiser Commands, that's a different story, those simply made Cruiser's viable for play again.
Sci buff will only affect PvP unless its adding an extra weapon slot or Bridge Officer seat, as the ships have no other use.
Aside from that, I fail to see how giving these three ships cloaks makes them copies of the KDF.
The closest equal the Galaxy X has is the Bortasqu' which is still leagues superior thanks to its boff setup.
The Avenger, pound for pound would be close to the Mogh, but still wouldn't be as tough. In a one on one fight against them the Mogh would win due to being tougher.
Defiant and Quin, I will admit would end up being nearly identical. However since the Qin came out LONG after the Defiant, I am willing to chalk this up to being a case of the KDF copying the Federation design. Its not unusual, look at every American and Soviet fighter that came out from the 1970's to the late 1980's, they look identical for a reason lol
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
A bit late as the Avenger and Mogh are direct copies, the console doesn't prevent the Avenger from being a copy, it just makes it an inferior one. In regards to the other two, the Gal-X still still fairly unique, and the Defiant and Qin an imperfect reflections in stats; changing the console won't make them pure copies of anything else. The Starfleet reliance on a console does nothing to preserve uniqueness, it's just a source of imbalance in the game mechanics as they have evolved to, today. In the past it was negligible, but today, with the level of power-creep in the game, it's old hat.
I commend the motionvement to make science based counters more available, but this thread is about the cloaking device console problem.
Exactly, at minimum a Federation Cloaking Device CONSOLE needs to be equal in viability to the Romulan and KDF Cloaking CONSOLES.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
The Stars System for carrier pets made them more powerful and if it was just a case of the commands not working why add those?
Cruisers was not viable based on your own words. The Comm Commands made them viable, again by your own words. That sounds like a buff to me.
Now why is adding more weapons or boff seating the only way to help sci ships in PvE content?
On to the ships, the Bortasqu' is the KDF flagship battlecrusier. It shows off the best of what the KDF can do. I'm would be shocked if Starfleet had anything to match that (That was not made by Section 31).
And the seed of this whole matter, the Avenger vs the Mogh. I'm pretty sure I could at least 5 quotes saying the Mogh is just a copy of the Avenger so can you please tell how the Mogh is tougher then an Avenger with built in cloak?
The last part the Defiant and the Qin. Now if we choose to look at the fleet versions Defiant has one more tactical console, higher turn rating, and higher inertia rating to a few more shield and hull points for the Qin. Based on what people said in this thread those few points mean little. You give the Defiant a built in cloak and it would be better then the Qin, right?
isn''t that exaltly what i just said?
the galaxy x got it 9 console slot when his cloack was turn into a console.
still was part of these few ship that only got 8 console slot.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
Can someone tell me the Stardate that Romulans first used cloaking tech?
Next, can someone tell me when the Klingon Empire and Romulans traded tech?
We are almost done, please tell me the Stardate when Starfleet was given a cloaking device by the Romulans?
Last one, tell me how fast did Starfleet understand how cloaking working based on what was left of the Romulan cloaking device after the Dominion war?
Now tell me how Starfleet could make a cloaking device on par with Klingons much less the Romulans?
So what about this? Those 3 ships get a cloaking built in but like I said before but it should not match two factions that for have been cloaking back in the TOS era.
Starfleet invented the phase cloak and already had a pretty good understanding of cloaking by the time the romulans gave them that one. They were simply not allowed to make a cloak again after the phase cloak due to a treaty with the romulans however that treaty is null and void as of the hobus explosion.
First time a Romulan ship cloaked: 2152
First time a Klingon ship cloaked: Stardate 5267.2
First time a Federation ship cloaked: Stardate 5027.3
Huh, would you look at that, the Federation has been able to cloak longer than the Klingons.
You forget that they didn't just have that old piece of junk from 'The Enterprise Incident' in TOS, they also had the USS Bounty from The Voyage Home, Kirk used it as leverage in bartering for their actions in The Search For Spock I believe.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
But again, this is lore, which ultimately should not be a factor in game mechanics balance. When you let Lore affect game mechanics and game mechanics influence Lore, the game just becomes a horrid wreck.
Ahem
There we go. You can not justify game imbalance with lore. Otherwise by all accounts Starfleet should have an 'come up with ingenious solution to fix this problem' console they can push for an instant win. :rolleyes:
Uh, I think I can prove the Federation knew how Cloaking technology works dude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Kp0JHhSqI
That wasn't a Romulan bolt on, it was Federation built.
Also in relation to the Cloaking Consoles from the Defiant and Galaxy X:
Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
That was Balance of Terror set in the 2260s
That was just soemthing people assumed but was never stated onscreen.
They stole one in the 2260s aka The Enterprise Incident.
They knew enough to build a working phase cloaking device back when the Klingons and Romulans were still trying to see if it was possible and before the Romulans tried their failed prototype. Not to mention knowing enough to come up with cloaking countermeasures.
Now tell me how Starfleet could make a cloaking device on par with Klingons much less the Romulans?
Yeah, because taking The Pegasus into account they should have the ability to create superior cloaking technology by this point.
No competent BoP pilot gets caught by warp-plasma, tractor beams have long been useless with APO and require the target already decloaked. DEM will punch through RSP. CPB and PS are good when you know the target is in range; otherwise you just waste a cooldown. Mines are only remotely a threat, as Brace nullifies kinetic so well. As the core argument of the whole thread is the cloak console is a hindrance in today's balance, listing more universal consoles as counters is just silly.
Cloaks for everyone, what a gross over-exaggeration. It's balancing cloaking for three ships which already have it with all the other ones that can without a console. That's it.
The Galaxy: Me and others said the Galaxy could use a buff and that is one way they could go about it. I'm willing to work there.
The fed battlecrusier: There should more of a push of not making them the same then anything. I say give it more hull or a higher shield mod. There is a loophole about its cloaking tech in STO's canon and I think it should stay.
Now this one, the Defiant, This thread showed me why I should hate what DS9 did to the Federation. Don't worry. I won't go into a rant about that. Now just the stats.
You could call the Defiant one of the best escorts in Starfleet. Put the cloaking console on it and it becomes a raptor. You put it in an tac slot and you got a pretty good copy of the Qin.
How many people do that? Like everyone said this thread PvE is a DPS race so why nerf your killing power.
Now lets compare your Defiant to the normal Qin.
Hull vs Hull: 36,300 for the Qin takes the win next to the Defiant's 33,000. Just 3,300 hull. Barely nothing based on what I heard in this thread.
Shields: Qin again with 4,807 takes it compared to Defiant's 4,703. That is worse the hull.
Now weapons: It is a tie but if you want to fleet weapons thank to the fact that the KDF got elite dis-Wait. Both factions can use Elachi weapons that has just about the same proc so tie.
Crew (Which everyone says is broken): Defiant's is on an roll with its 50 to the small army of 200 that is inside the Qin.
We are getting to the juicy parts, battle stations! It's a tie! Both of these can dish out great levels of tactical attacks.
Next we have consoles: Same 10 but what is this? The Defiant carries 5 tactical slots? That is a whole 33% boost to damage I think. Wow! Now lets see what the Qin can do....it has one more eng slot then the Defiant! It could use those to damage re-wait diminishing returns kills that. Well it could boost it heali-wait. With its oh so tactical boff layout where is any real healing coming from? Well....
I want to stop this now but you see what I'm trying to say. A Defiant with built in cloak becomes the best escort AND raptor ingame. Now please tell me how that is fair?
R.I.P
This. Flying a BoP against competent opponents is NOT an easy thing. Skilled players know how to fight BoPs, and it's at that point that the BoP is revealed as the vulnerable target it is. The only BoP that really comes close to being truly competitive is the B'rel, because of the enhanced battlecloak. The other Bops have to deal with 24k hull and .88 shield mod for 15-20 seconds of vulnerability (since we're not allowed to reduce our cloak cooldowns) while fighting A2B FAW-spamming cruisers that Feddies whine are 'too weak' and fighting escorts that could kill you in 1-2 attack runs. Even with Tactical Team + EPtS1/EPtS2 up I lose chunks of shield HP every time I get alpha'd by some Fed-Rom attacking me or someone in a Fleet Defiant.
Also, APO can't be up nearly enough to allow you to 'ignore' tractor beams. . .and you can't overlook the effect that subnukes have (i.e., removing your APO and putting all your abilities on a way-long cooldown). Oh, and let's not forget subsystem disabling via target subsystems and Viral Matrix. . .only APO3 will provided resistance to that. Unless you've got the best-of-the-best doffs that are ludicrously expensive that allow you to have 75-90% uptime on APO, you certainly can't forget about the numerous ways you can be disabled.
Also, it's not always easy to dodge warp plasma, especially when someone starts ejecting it while you're directly behind them launching an alphastrike. Again, this is something skilled players can do.
The only thing BoPs are 'OP' against are clueless players who don't bother to learn how to repel BoPs. For the kind of tactics BoPs do, the Romulans are better because THEIR battlecloakers aren't nerfed to mollify whining Feds.