can I have what your smoking I got a few things I'd like to forget too.
like the fact kdf gets anything useful at all... or keeps anything feds whine... at ths point I would be surpised if there is a thread saying kdf shouldn't exist because they may out pew pew feds.
on a totally unrelated note can someone please tell me if there is a gif of teen picard with " I want my father" "replaced with I want a cloak?" and if it does give my a link so I can get a copy.
KDF get easy access to Plasmonic Leech, they get the Bio Neru Warhead, both from *very* cheap ships, same consoles cost several million EC, IF you can find them. KDF also get the Barrier Shield Generator which makes most PvE missions an utter joke. Toss in access to the Power Syphon Drone and Aceton Assimilators.
now if you are talking about things that are 'generally' useful you have the Orion Slaver pets which get you free Contraband.
now if you have a KDF Allied Romulan, and are willing to spend some money you can get the Mogai set, which gives a *very* nasty buff to exotic damage, this buffs damage and effect from Magnetic overload and Isometric Charge. Use Battle Cloak to use one console, then cloak and SWITCH THE CONSOLE you can then turn around and fire off the other console fairly quickly.
KDF are *very* effective if you are willing to be creative and think outside the box.
BUT since I am apparently the only person on earth who plays KDF and finds PvP an utter waste of time, that doesn't seem to amount to much.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
EC costs for a whole selection of goodies that render the -40 power moot, for starters, then there's the reduced cost of duty officers, etc. on the exchange.
as for Cubes...
any ship that's built correctly can take a cube, even a basic 'free' Assault Cruiser can solo a cube with the right build.
I've seen people solo cubes in Intrepids and Nebulas before successfully.
admittedly, the fastest way is with a five console ship like the Andorian escort or the craptastic Bortasque (Fifty dollar ship), but soloing cubes is no big deal.
You certainly don't need cloak to solo cubes, do probe duty, etc. etc.-in most STF tasks, cloak's pretty much useless, except in Hive where it's outright totally useless and can even be a hinderance.
which goes back to the origin of this entire thread-for PvE balance, cloak's a non-factor and the Fed side has the better ships. for PvP, a fed who knows what they're doing doesn't need cloak to bust cloakers (FvK), the only use for hte competent PvP'er on the Fedside, is beating up other feds using cloaks-(FvF), and y'all have plenty of opportunity to do that using your fedaligned Romulans.
Which are, as you yourself pointed out, superior to anything the KDF has, or any cloak-enabled Federation ship could be.
I said IF you are willing to spend money. I've been unemployed for nine months now, and I'm far from the only person in that boat. I only have the Zen ships I own now because friends gave me gift cards. Were it not for them I wouldn't have a single Zen store purchase. Likewise I know a LOT of people who refuse to spend a single dollar on this game purely on principle (at least they claim so).
We're going in circles here. You keep saying Cloak is a nonfactor in PvE. That's BOGUS. Cloak makes a HUGE difference in spike damage. Even without Battle Cloak you can do massive amounts of spike damage if you have a Remen Bridge Officer with Infiltrator or if you spec your ship correctly, you just have to be creative in how you play.
A Galaxy X with Emergency to Weapons can come out of Cloak just as nasty as most Cloak burners, but then you have to give up a console slot to make that work, whereas the Tactical Bortosq can do the exact same thing for a LOT more damage even if you limit it to the same number of Tac buffs. Both ships cost the same however.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Man, so much diversionary discussion. Is it really that hard to just discuss the (im)balance of the state of cloaking in the game? You have to drag in quite literally everything you can to avoid the real topic?
Put away the sci ships, put away the carriers. It boils down to power-creep, the re-balancing that comes with it, and the fact that the Federation reliance on a console to cloak takes away from the three (3) cloak-possible starfleet vessels' available passive increases, and conversely equivalent tactical options to their counterparts. The most glaring of which being the Mogh and Avenger; which are identical except for the cloak, which we are told 'isn't enough to require sacrificing for balance'. Except for the Avenger to do so, it must yield a console slot, and the owner potentially needing to spend another 20 dollars to pull the console from another ship on top of the game mechanics issue.
Bortasque vs. Failaxy-different generation of design, the Failaxy-X is universally reviled and could use an update. The Bort is reviled among most KDF players because it sucks rocks and is a gimped copy of the Odyssey with an extra tac console. the format of the ship is all wrong for the Battlecruiser role-it handles badly and requires a lot of dedication to make it work at all-though it is somewhat easier to use in the older STF's since movement's not an issue and your targets are large, stationary, and stupid.
Defiant R vs....everything. It's a good ship, better than just about everything except a Bugship in all roles you'll ever need in PvE-without needing to cloak. In PvP it's a strong platform as well, easily able to outgun and out-turn it's closest competition and only vulnerable to BoPs when the pilot's not paying attention.
Actually, untill the beams got better the Bort was (and its still is) a far better ship then Oddy. Most ppl use the sci variants of both, and in PvE at least, the Bort had better dps cuz of dhcs and 4 tac consoles compared with Oddy with beams only and just 2 tac consoles. And that extra 0.5 turn rate Oddy has means nothing since it cant use dhcs anyway... Hypothetical, if the Devs would've put on sale the Bort for feds aswell after like 1 month both ships apeared, would've made a killer sale. Becouse it was (and still is) a better ship then the Oddy. But the kdf dismissed it becouse they were spoiled and were used with much better ships.
And Deafinat R vs anything is better? Hmm, funny how every kdf player forgets about the Guramba, wich is still one of the best PvE escort/destroyer from the game, despite the power creep.
Ohh and the Qin raptor pivot thing doesnt exist, devs explained it in detail, with pictures and everything. Check the forums and you will find it.
And you say the fed is a strong faction. No its not, is the weakest of them all. Its Romulans>KDF>Fed.
But only till recently this became more obvious becouse of the powercreep and the fleet consoles. Maybe like 2 years ago wasnt so bad but now it is. And you sound like you are the only one knows about cloak and what it does. You do realize that many fed players tried both the kdf and romulan factions and tried allmost every ships from there too...
I totaly agree with the fact that every faction has strenghts and weekness. But thats the thing. You see you dont get it. Becouse of the power creep, fed strong points remained the same while its weeknesses got bigger. While with the kdf its the oposite. Its strong points got even better cuz of the powercreep while its weeknesses remained the same or even diminueshed.
And its more obvious now when a console slot values 2 console slots from like 2 years ago. Now that slot that the 3 fed ships sacrifice for the cloak console values 2 console slots with the fleet consoles.
And its funny that the fed faction has to gimp their ships and captain skills to "learn how to play it right" while the kdf ships pay nothing for in-atte cloak, just cuz devs think this is balance . In PvP a fed ship has to invest in sensor skills or other PvE useless skills thus making its damage near to useless just to detect kdf cloaked ships, not to mention sacrifice boff skills to uncloak them, while kdf doenst have to invest any points in stealth skill whatsoever since its doesnt count allmost at all. I think I even saw a thread about this, with math and everything.
The cloaking device in a console slot is no different a choice than any player must make if they wish the slot a Borg console, zero point console, Plasmonic leech, Tachyonic console or any other console choice that falls under the Universal classification.
No ship is given extra slot for those choices and the Cloaking device is no different.
Its just a choice and a sacrifice like any other.
what you're not seeming to understand, is that it's not imbalanced-between Fed and KDF. the Imbalance is between everyone else and Romulans-and that was by design.
You strike me as someone who really doesn't understand how cloaking works in the game in relation to the other functions, you just see it as something cool that you want...but you don't want to dirty your screen using a toon from a faction that has it.
so you don't get that it's not the cure-all your fantasies tell you it is. It's faction-restricted in order to make the factions DIFFERENT.
as in playing differently with different strengths and different weaknesses.
And yet, it seems you still don't comprehend the whole point of the discussion. It's not to give cloak to all of starfleet, it's taking the three, 3, and let's count them together; Defiant, Galaxy-X, Avenger- three vessels which already do cloak and fixing their obsolete method of doing so. Highlight and waved in everyone's face by a Dev last week, with his statement that standard cloaking isn't of enough tactical value to warrant diminishing a ship to use it.
And again with what boil down to personal attacks and efforts to diminish and discredit the person themselves and not really dealing with the topic, which this who post does it's best to skirt around and try to evade with excuses. It makes your own stance look weak in turn.
I myself, am quite familair with cloaking and its use in the game, in both PvE and PvP. I play all three factions, I've experimented and tinkered for years. That time and experience shows the Federation console is now becoming too much of a sacrifice to mount due to power-creep via Fleet-grade consoles.
Which this whole post doesn't acknowledge, once.
what you're also not getting, is that when you transfer the strengths of one faction to the other without invoking a penalty, you really DO end up overpowering one side-a Fed-style Escort with a KDF Battlecloak would be ridonkulously overpowered-the Romulans get close with the T5 T'Varo already-just like giving Raptors equal stats to a Defiant or Bugship would do the same thing the other way.
The builds shouldn't be the same between the factions, not everyone should GET everyone else's strengths without taking a hit somewhere. that was a mistake recently made with the Avenger, it's not a mistake that needs to be repeated.
I'm not sure where to start with you here, so I'm going to presume you've just had all the Pro-Fed posts blend together in your train of thought. Just look back, you'll find I have, and will again say, I do not disagree that battle-cloak on the starfleet vessels would be overpowered. I myself have been the one advocate to just integrate the standard cloak and be done with it; or if the console must remain, buffing the cloak in some other way. Via Romulan Tier-5 Rep ability, everyone already has a tenuous battlecloak anyways; I know the aggravation of seeing Bug-ships dropping in and out of cloak.
The ships are all subtly different for the most part, review my proposals and statements on the Raptor. Keep an asymmetrical balance in stats, and not using consoles as part of it. Sadly, you will still see cookie-cutter builds in skills, traits, and gear simply due to min-maxing in this game, especially at PvP level. It amusingly makes the statement a bit of a quirk as the removal of the console reliance would simply even the field in PvP, and expand utility in PvE; which I feel that risk of 'evening the field in PvP' is what brings the handful of outspoken KDF here so aggressively opposing it.
I also concur this debacle with the Avenger was also a mistake on part of the Devs, but likely for different reasons. However there, if the table was flipped, I would be still be against the stunt that was pulled with releasing, and then re-releasing a ship in superior format.
Your faction has some really good ships-if they're built and skilled and flown right, if they're not, gimmicks won't MAKE them better, even if the gimmick is ripped from another faction's abilities list.
Instead of envying the KDF's abilities list, maybe you should focus on learning and mastering your own faction's advantages and minimizing your own faction's weaknesses.
Seriously. Federation's a STRONG faction if it's played right.
Again, this part seems to try to summarize incorrectly. Three ships, which put a spin on the standard for Starfleet playstyle at monetary cost need a fix to keep up with power-creep, which is further fueled by Dev statements as of late. They need to be kept up with the Jones's here, as it's becoming a hindrance even by internal faction balance standards.
Yes Starfleet can be strong, it has flexibility and diversity, and limited cloaking is one of the flexibilities. Not all of the Federation have it, in fact it is around 10% of the end-game vessels; removing the console does nothing to diminish KDF in the grand scheme of things, the greatest risk to them is some more evenly-footed opponents in PvP. And either are just as likely to be torn apart by that JHAS in Ker'rat. :rolleyes:
And Deafinat R vs anything is better? Hmm, funny how every kdf player forgets about the Guramba, wich is still one of the best PvE escort/destroyer from the game, despite the power creep.
Ohh and the Qin raptor pivot thing doesnt exist, devs explained it in detail, with pictures and everything. Check the forums and you will find it.
I have fought a lot with Defiants and I tell you that fleet defiant has better turn,better shield mod ,better powerfire than any kdf escort .A defiant will make circles around any raptor and pivot issue does exists and yes I read the forums.
To balance the raptor class with a possible fleet defiant having innate battlecloak means making raptors smaller in size (to remove pivot issue -field vision if you want ) ,give them same turn rate and shield mod as Defiant and give them 5 tactical consoles.
More giving to raptor the same crew number as defiant because of how repair rate is calculated.In fact making a raptor with similar stats with a fleet defiant.
That would be in my opinion a fair price for a Defiant getting innate console.
And you say the fed is a strong faction. No its not, is the weakest of them all. Its Romulans>KDF>Fed.But only till recently this became more obvious becouse of the powercreep and the fleet consoles. Maybe like 2 years ago wasnt so bad but now it is. And you sound like you are the only one knows about cloak and what it does. You do realize that many fed players tried both the kdf and romulan factions and tried allmost every ships from there too...
You are kidding right ?
My romulan T'varo can fight with a fleet defiant easily and again i wouldnt try that with my somraw fleet raptor due to big difference in turn rate
My hafeh has +15 to weapons and 5 tac consoles while as kdf I don't have any escort class ship with 5 tac console .Federation have the kumari which is the best escort in game in my opinion.
And its more obvious now when a console slot values 2 console slots from like 2 years ago. Now that slot that the 3 fed ships sacrifice for the cloak console values 2 console slots with the fleet consoles.
Sorry I fail to follow your logic .How can a console slot value 2 console slots ?!
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Which is in keeping with a lot of lower-tier universal consoles. there arent' very many that ARE useful all the way up to the top of the chain at T5.
(snip)
Limited Cloaking is a gimmick, to sell skins. every Rear Admrial to Vice Admiral ship that has access to it, works BETTER when you don't install the console. Considering that the ship that provides it is a Captain level ship, that should not be a real surprise. It's like the ablative console off the intrepid refit, or the battery console off the B'rolth skin-it's not something intended to be an endgame item, merely an option for which you pay a price if you insist on using it.
Alot of universals remain excellent above their tier, the Aceton Assimilator is a shining example. But in the end, this statement is woefully incorrect; and in regards to this two-part falsity:
The Federation Dreadnought Cruiser is a unique Vice Admiral (tier 5) level cruiser.
and
The Tactical Escort Retrofit is an Admiral (Tier 5) level Federation Escort.
First line on the ship pages from the Wiki, and just look at the Ship store in game. I do believe tier 5 is endgame, which means these consoles and ships should be competitive even by your given perspective. Just to point out I do do my research on things. Which leads into...
except...it's not functionally superior-the larger crew means your injuries compound FASTER in actual play. Regardless of statements on how Crew is supposed to work, the fact is, it regens at a fixed rate, but is lost by percentage, and functions by percentage-which means on a functional level, the Avenger heals about twice as fast, all other factors being equal.
It's a bug, a long-term bug but a bug none the less. You can't argue that a bug makes things balanced as once it's fixed that all changes, and I would not be surprised to see a fix for it in the near future with Devs suddenly pushing for KDF improvement if the trend holds true.
I personally don't notice it even in my thousand+ crew ships, though that could stem from the fact I'm so used to my squishy escorts I'm rely on aux-batt boosted healing powers and not the innate repair speed.
and the cloaking device console does what it says it does-but it's like a lot of console powers in that it's not necessarily doing something USEFUL.
but like all Uni consoles (both useful, and non-useful) it takes up a console slot.
so I fail to see this as a balance problem-the ships in question don't need to rely on it to function in two cases, and don't function even if it's equipped in the case of the Failaxy.
as to the Crew issue being a bug, at this point, as long standing a 'bug' and as often reported as it's been, it's something we may well treat as 'working as intended' or 'Working as Designed' and forget it being addressed. Unlike the Ensign Flatulence decloak bug, there's really not much that's impacted on Fedside by it (as you've noted yourself), so there's no driving need to fix it.
It may even be fairly said that, given the usual Cryptic handling on ship releases, that they've adopted this 'bug' as a balance mechanism in-house with the Mogh.
reason I say that, is that the other, more usual nerfbats weren't used-it didn't lose Shielding, or hull, or turn rates, or get a borked up console layout or seating arrangement.
There seems to be cyclic logic here, or just dismissal of things present earlier in this debate. The console sacrifice to enable use of an ability that should be innate is the core conflict of the entire issue; intensified by we having Gorngozola stating standard cloaking isn't worth nerfing a ship. And the state of the game's power-creep means this ability which by those standards and all comparable standards should be innate, is woefully underpowering the ships they are on, to enable use of it. By your presented line of reasoning, the KDF ships should have their cloaking moved over to a console too. :rolleyes:
A bug is still a bug, you can try to claim Cryptic is using it as balance in the Mogh, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bug, and when it is fixed, that will cease to be a problem. As to working with that bug; you just assumed Fed-bias and spouted off in regards to my statement of crew sizes. I do not believe the Bastion is a Starfleet vessel, nor the Vo'Quv; which even in the latter I have excellent survivability.
Again, you're citing old standard in regards to standard cloaking, which Cryptic has done away with. Multiple old cloaking vessels could use a touch-up in light of it. With the game going the direction it is, I could probably tune up my Qin in the same manner of my Defiant, and end up with a superior ship despite the Qin's flaws due to Fleet consoles.
And the above is what happens when you have a roommate slip in, log you out and log in themselves to post elsewhere, and not log out or mention anything, lol! XD
And the same level of attention to a Defiant would toss that superiority with the Qin back in the rubbish bin of also-rans.
Oh look, this. Again. I think this is a dozen times now. The answer is not to penalize and diminish the Defiant and those who (paid to) fly it. The correct course here is to fix the Qin as well.
The failaxy-x was a fail design from it's root, and it hauls around an innate weapon already-that big freeking phaser cannon, which is still a poor design choice on a ship that turns that slowly-but it's innate. Cloak is NOT innate.
The Gal-X is so full of problems it deserves its own thread, which is has. As stated before, again, it's a pretty unique beast. Let's leave it at that.
Cloak, on Fed vessels, requires a console and you have to sacrifice something to get it-because the Federation's not designing or building ships with the intent to be cloaking vessels-and why would they?
Let's look at the development history of Federation Cloaks...
Stuck in a rock, everybody died.
Blew UP on it's maiden voyage.
Illegal. First by treaty, later by legislative action.
Lore. Which again, now dozens of times stated, should have zero baring on game mechanics balance. If Lore was allowed to Lord over game mechanics, this game would be an even larger mess than it is today. Even the Big Bad WoW has had to work around its Lore to keep playing-fields even.
Again, do not try to argue Lore, it is irrelevant.
The game-design intent here is obvious-putting Cloak on a Federation design is a little like...oh, y'know, big mudder tyres on a Lambroghini Murcilago because it's got four wheel drive. it's not designed for that kind of play, and you're going to lose something for doing it.
This statement is incorrect. If these ships were never design to cloak from the start, and were not added to the game with the ability to do so, your analog would be valid. It is not. These ships were designed and always intended to be cloaking vessels within the game. A better analog is a being given a sports car without the correct transmission; yes it works, but it is such a terrible fit it makes your car feel like garbage compared to the guy's next to you without the flaw.
It's "Not all tactics work with all factions" and not all tactical choices should work for all factions. Want to play with Cloak as a Fed? Roll a Romulan and choose "Federation" for your affiliation and you get to without making sacrifices. it's the whole purpose of the faction.
And again, Romulans exist to be Romulans, not Starfleet nor KDF Captains. :rolleyes: They do not command Starfleet ships at Tier 5, they command Romulan Warbirds. Romulans are not the vaunted answer made out to be here, their own implementation was half-assed and forced to piggy-back on the existing factions.
Additionally, I am done with this repetition from you. You keep restating what is rebutted with nothing new to support it. You were completely incorrect about the tier these ships even exist in, which I even counterpointed before proving it wrong it entirely. Further cyclic statements will simply be referenced to prior quotes discounting them.
Apparently on tribble, the information for the Voth Lockbox Consoles has changed to include the Voth Bulwark Dreadnought Cruiser and the 3 piece set bonus is a Voth Battle Cloak. So Feds will be able to get an alien ship with Battle Cloak if they spend a ton of money or EC to get 2 lockbox ships.
Apparently on tribble, the information for the Voth Lockbox Consoles has changed to include the Voth Bulwark Dreadnought Cruiser and the 3 piece set bonus is a Voth Battle Cloak. So Feds will be able to get an alien ship with Battle Cloak if they spend a ton of money or EC to get 2 lockbox ships.
You only need three obscenely priced ships and then to sacrifice three console slots to battlecloak, hmm? Good times.
Of course they were-they wouldn't have filled the purpose if they were their own, full faction. Had they gotten that treatment, Fed players would be up against TWO cloaking factions, rather than getting access to Battlecloaking ships superior to the BoP on a Federation only team.
I was wrong about the tier of the ships,but I stand by the statement that the console, like a lot of console powers, is an 'extra' ability-that is, borderline useless, and in that condition intentionally-as in, by design. When it was shifted from inbuilt on a ship with a missing console slot (used to only have eight) they could've left it in-built.
This was not what was done, instead Cryptic took the extra steps to create it as a console installation. Whenever extra work is done, that's indicative of game design intent and the vision the designer has for a faction-knowing they can't just cancel it entirely, the designers intentionally made sure it wasn't the optimal way to use the spaceframe.
Old balance, many times established. A standard that has fallen to the wayside; and is now a severe point of inferiority. Unless you think all ships should go back to this standard of balance too? Debuffing the BCs and removing similar improvements over the years because that's the way it was intended to be back when they made all of this. :rolleyes:
The game has changed.
Note also that Lore matters when you're working with specific Intellectual Property and licenses-if Cryptic doesn't pay at least LIP SERVICE to the lore, they can LOSE that IP, which means we lose this game, so paying attention to the Lore might be relevant AFTER ALL.
(it wouldn't matter if Cryptic OWNED the rights, rather than licensing them. if they owned the rights, they could do pretty much as they pleased...)
per the Lore, the Federation has limited, buggy, and illegal to develop cloaks-or they have cloaks supplied by Romulan state techs-that are...limited, and buggy.
Every time the Defiant NEEDED it's cloaking device, it failed in the show, didn't it? these, at least, don't self-break, get you stuck in a rock, or blow up randomly.
But they take up a console slot you could use for something that is actually useful-which is the point of their being Console items-indicative that you had to sacrifice something else to mount them.
why? because for purposes of keeping the IP, the Lore actually matters.
See:
Lore. Which again, now dozens of times stated, should have zero baring on game mechanics balance. If Lore was allowed to Lord over game mechanics, this game would be an even larger mess than it is today. Even the Big Bad WoW has had to work around its Lore to keep playing-fields even.
Again, do not try to argue Lore, it is irrelevant.
One more note on it. They cloak already, shown failing Defiant cloak or not; which to demand a failing cloak is just irrational thought as many ships could have their cloak have issues. So the IP is not upset by cloaking Federation ships. :rolleyes:
Looking at it in pure MMO/tabletop RPG terms, the Federation is a "Priest/Paladin/Wizard" faction, the KDF is a "Ranger/Rogue/Shaman" faction. There's occasional overlap, and a lot of the tasks are similar, but a Paladin is not a Rogue, or a Ranger, and a Shaman can get some of the same effects, but it's no Priest or Wizard. The Romulans in this little epic provide KDF with "Real Wizards" and the Federation with "Real Rogues". They're a crossover, they were designed to BE a crossover.
See?
If you really want to go further down this road; the Starfleet cloak is comparable to the old Forsaken Holy Priests. The story didn't support them, but they existed for game balance. I presume you are against the Qang concept as well then as it fails to fall into your mindset of differentiation?
As for Romulans' role in the game:
And again, Romulans exist to be Romulans, not Starfleet nor KDF Captains. They do not command Starfleet ships at Tier 5, they command Romulan Warbirds. Romulans are not the vaunted answer made out to be here, their own implementation was half-assed and forced to piggy-back on the existing factions.
(not to mention, if you're already a member of the Defiant Owner's club, the Fleet version costs about 500 zen-one fleet module, whereas B'rel owners get to pay $20 on top of their initial $25 to fly the Fleet version...)
Something to fix:
B'rel does get the FSM discount. But only if it's been properly bought from the C-store, Vet ship tokens don't count.
Unless it's bugged since last time I checked. Wouldn't surprise me.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
It is very unlikely that the third ship would be available through the Lockbox or Lobi Store. I am thinking either doing the Tier 5 Dyson mission or it is the Anniversary ship. So 2 lockbox ships.
The Qang concept is simply unrealistic under the development conditions we're looking at-it's a neat idea, but it's one that will never happen-unlike movement of capabilities from KDF to Federation (Avenger-where the very first BATTLECRUISER for the federation was materially superior to all existing KDF BC's and was that way for three months before the developers cloned it back to the originating faction), the reverse doesn't happen nearly as predictably, and when it does, there's usually heavy application of the gimping stick.
IOW the Qang as posted in that thread is simply too good, therefore it won't happen, esp. with the advent of the Raider Flanking buff-it doesn't fit with the balance the developers have chosen for the game.
Ah, so it does fail to fall under your personal views. :P This is essentially a wait and see, I would think. We're seeing various tweaks to the game, with more to come. Admissibly it's of minimal relevance to this topic and was tossed out as a note of curiosity.
The only fifty dollar ship in the KDF inventory?
runs class-counter to everything that defines the Battlecruiser role and should have been a Federation CRUISER. The tacking on of two things got it misdefined-the abilty to mount Dual Cannons (without the ability to actually use them) and an integral cloak that is more easily penetrated than Mask Energy Signature (a Bridge officer power).
The KDF were given something they didn't have, and many players have used it to the full potential. It preforms like a heavy line cruiser, being tough and great for beam broadsiding; and even with DHCs and the autocannon console it emulates the Gal-X's one shot heavy-Alpha. The fact that it can run five tactical consoles lets it bring better pressure damage than the entire Starfleet cruiser line. Really it could almost pass as the Gal-X plus. Some food for thought there.
Tac Escort Refit (C-store T5 Defiant)-when it was released, it was a poor man's Raptor, by ditching the integral cloak, however, you get another paragon of the Escort class-it does what an Escort Class should do, and better than anything short of Fleet/Lockbox Bugships. it's fast, tough, manueverable, hard to target an hard to beat-what a $25 ship SHOULD be.
The cloak is supernumerary to the role-it isn't needed, the Defiant's viable in PvE, it's viable in PvP, it's effective in all the roles an escort SHOULD BE effective in, and it's good enough that in the right hands with the right build, it can pull a draw or defeat lockbox and event ships that dominate most content through sheer power of cheeze.
Again, failure to account for the paradigm shift over the years, or just oblivious to what was and is now. I recall the Defiant not even being an element of vexation back in the day, it was the Fleet Escort, now known as the Patrol Escort. I remember that being touted as the best Starfleet had and being idiot-proof until it was nerfed. :rolleyes: The tactical retro is from the aforementioned old balance, in which VA ships were not outright better than the RA options, just side-grades. But the shift in the concept of balance that makes VA grade vessels a step up, and especially with Fleet 5.5 tier, the sacrifice leaves it inferior.
But this doesn't include only the Defiant. The Avenger is now in a state a inferiority to its direct counterpart; requiring more financial and logistical expense to preform similarly in tactical options. And of course, the poor Gal-X which is such a bloody mess innate cloak would only be the tip of the iceburg needed to make it feel up to snuff. You have Gorngonzola's statement that standard cloak shouldn't cost anything for this concept being supercharged and being dug in on. The Cloak Console's continued existence is hypocritical when you hold it up to that, and devalues the Starfleet cloaking trio as well as the Qin.
In end though, everything just begins to crumble due to you inability to be truthful:
(not to mention, if you're already a member of the Defiant Owner's club, the Fleet version costs about 500 zen-one fleet module, whereas B'rel owners get to pay $20 on top of their initial $25 to fly the Fleet version...)
You did it again. Stating something in a factual context while being completely wrong. How many times are you going to be just plain wrong in your efforts to prop up your stance?
Right now, logged in on my KDF tact with the BoP... Fleet B'rel Retro, 1 module, like any other VA C-store upgrade. :rolleyes:
Or did you simply forget the B'rel Retro is VA too? If you can't be bothered to check the facts on the B'rel, or the Defiant nor Gal-X, what else are you going on about incorrectly? In the end, you are making false allegations and statements as though they were fact even when a moment's investigation would prove otherwise; and I can't help but feel the problem is you're so out of touch from reality you just can't see things as they really are.
Now, I'm sorry you can't figure out a build on your Defiant, but that's not a problem with the balance of hte game, that's a player problem. There is more than enough advice out there on how to build and skill a FedScort effectively, and plenty of grindable resources to do the equipping.
And again resorting to blaming players for a mechanical balance; which one could spin it around and say the same about the Qin, or anything. People can make a good build, but the moment the go to try to get the same tactical flexibility these vessels are sold as having, especially in the case of the Avenger vs Mogh, is the same moment they do they become inferior. Not just to their Red counterparts, but even to their equivalents in the shipyard. Despite all being C-store ships, and with a hypocritical statement from a Dev on the matter of standard cloaking. Which these vessels have. Thus the point of this thread.
Even your 'facts' are filled with conjecture and personal beliefs.
Ironically you decry everyone here as wanting an advantage, not balance; when proposals such as innate cloaking would bring balance, cross-faction and internal. With the likelihood to nullify the KDF Mogh advantage. :P All three cloak-capable Starfleet ships are bought from the C-store, there is no free cloaker for blue. They should be kept up to speed with the power-creep, and thus need improvement in some form.
I know we got a freebie with the Obelix set but it also points to a Lobi ship, if this ship is given outside Lock Box that will be a first.
The problem is that there can only be one lockbox ship and lobi store ship for every lockbox and these are already given. Since the Bastion is available through the lockbox and the Palisade is available through the Lobi Store there is no way for the Bulwark to be available through the Voth Lockbox or Lobi Store. The devs have said that there is a special reward for getting to Tier 5 Dyson and there is the Anniversary Event which is supposed to be about the Dyson Sphere according to 2013 Reflections Dev Blog and both of these methods make sense for us getting a Voth Ship. The only other option is that it would be available the same way that the JHAS is available. Personally I think that this ship will be available through the Dyson Reputation and it will set the precedence to give an amazing free item for completing it for future reputations and maybe even the current ones.
Comments
KDF get easy access to Plasmonic Leech, they get the Bio Neru Warhead, both from *very* cheap ships, same consoles cost several million EC, IF you can find them. KDF also get the Barrier Shield Generator which makes most PvE missions an utter joke. Toss in access to the Power Syphon Drone and Aceton Assimilators.
now if you are talking about things that are 'generally' useful you have the Orion Slaver pets which get you free Contraband.
now if you have a KDF Allied Romulan, and are willing to spend some money you can get the Mogai set, which gives a *very* nasty buff to exotic damage, this buffs damage and effect from Magnetic overload and Isometric Charge. Use Battle Cloak to use one console, then cloak and SWITCH THE CONSOLE you can then turn around and fire off the other console fairly quickly.
KDF are *very* effective if you are willing to be creative and think outside the box.
BUT since I am apparently the only person on earth who plays KDF and finds PvP an utter waste of time, that doesn't seem to amount to much.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
I said IF you are willing to spend money. I've been unemployed for nine months now, and I'm far from the only person in that boat. I only have the Zen ships I own now because friends gave me gift cards. Were it not for them I wouldn't have a single Zen store purchase. Likewise I know a LOT of people who refuse to spend a single dollar on this game purely on principle (at least they claim so).
We're going in circles here. You keep saying Cloak is a nonfactor in PvE. That's BOGUS. Cloak makes a HUGE difference in spike damage. Even without Battle Cloak you can do massive amounts of spike damage if you have a Remen Bridge Officer with Infiltrator or if you spec your ship correctly, you just have to be creative in how you play.
A Galaxy X with Emergency to Weapons can come out of Cloak just as nasty as most Cloak burners, but then you have to give up a console slot to make that work, whereas the Tactical Bortosq can do the exact same thing for a LOT more damage even if you limit it to the same number of Tac buffs. Both ships cost the same however.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Put away the sci ships, put away the carriers. It boils down to power-creep, the re-balancing that comes with it, and the fact that the Federation reliance on a console to cloak takes away from the three (3) cloak-possible starfleet vessels' available passive increases, and conversely equivalent tactical options to their counterparts. The most glaring of which being the Mogh and Avenger; which are identical except for the cloak, which we are told 'isn't enough to require sacrificing for balance'. Except for the Avenger to do so, it must yield a console slot, and the owner potentially needing to spend another 20 dollars to pull the console from another ship on top of the game mechanics issue.
Actually, untill the beams got better the Bort was (and its still is) a far better ship then Oddy. Most ppl use the sci variants of both, and in PvE at least, the Bort had better dps cuz of dhcs and 4 tac consoles compared with Oddy with beams only and just 2 tac consoles. And that extra 0.5 turn rate Oddy has means nothing since it cant use dhcs anyway... Hypothetical, if the Devs would've put on sale the Bort for feds aswell after like 1 month both ships apeared, would've made a killer sale. Becouse it was (and still is) a better ship then the Oddy. But the kdf dismissed it becouse they were spoiled and were used with much better ships.
And Deafinat R vs anything is better? Hmm, funny how every kdf player forgets about the Guramba, wich is still one of the best PvE escort/destroyer from the game, despite the power creep.
Ohh and the Qin raptor pivot thing doesnt exist, devs explained it in detail, with pictures and everything. Check the forums and you will find it.
And you say the fed is a strong faction. No its not, is the weakest of them all. Its Romulans>KDF>Fed.
But only till recently this became more obvious becouse of the powercreep and the fleet consoles. Maybe like 2 years ago wasnt so bad but now it is. And you sound like you are the only one knows about cloak and what it does. You do realize that many fed players tried both the kdf and romulan factions and tried allmost every ships from there too...
I totaly agree with the fact that every faction has strenghts and weekness. But thats the thing. You see you dont get it. Becouse of the power creep, fed strong points remained the same while its weeknesses got bigger. While with the kdf its the oposite. Its strong points got even better cuz of the powercreep while its weeknesses remained the same or even diminueshed.
And its more obvious now when a console slot values 2 console slots from like 2 years ago. Now that slot that the 3 fed ships sacrifice for the cloak console values 2 console slots with the fleet consoles.
And its funny that the fed faction has to gimp their ships and captain skills to "learn how to play it right" while the kdf ships pay nothing for in-atte cloak, just cuz devs think this is balance
No ship is given extra slot for those choices and the Cloaking device is no different.
Its just a choice and a sacrifice like any other.
R.I.P
And yet, it seems you still don't comprehend the whole point of the discussion. It's not to give cloak to all of starfleet, it's taking the three, 3, and let's count them together; Defiant, Galaxy-X, Avenger- three vessels which already do cloak and fixing their obsolete method of doing so. Highlight and waved in everyone's face by a Dev last week, with his statement that standard cloaking isn't of enough tactical value to warrant diminishing a ship to use it.
And again with what boil down to personal attacks and efforts to diminish and discredit the person themselves and not really dealing with the topic, which this who post does it's best to skirt around and try to evade with excuses. It makes your own stance look weak in turn.
I myself, am quite familair with cloaking and its use in the game, in both PvE and PvP. I play all three factions, I've experimented and tinkered for years. That time and experience shows the Federation console is now becoming too much of a sacrifice to mount due to power-creep via Fleet-grade consoles.
Which this whole post doesn't acknowledge, once.
I'm not sure where to start with you here, so I'm going to presume you've just had all the Pro-Fed posts blend together in your train of thought. Just look back, you'll find I have, and will again say, I do not disagree that battle-cloak on the starfleet vessels would be overpowered. I myself have been the one advocate to just integrate the standard cloak and be done with it; or if the console must remain, buffing the cloak in some other way. Via Romulan Tier-5 Rep ability, everyone already has a tenuous battlecloak anyways; I know the aggravation of seeing Bug-ships dropping in and out of cloak.
The ships are all subtly different for the most part, review my proposals and statements on the Raptor. Keep an asymmetrical balance in stats, and not using consoles as part of it. Sadly, you will still see cookie-cutter builds in skills, traits, and gear simply due to min-maxing in this game, especially at PvP level. It amusingly makes the statement a bit of a quirk as the removal of the console reliance would simply even the field in PvP, and expand utility in PvE; which I feel that risk of 'evening the field in PvP' is what brings the handful of outspoken KDF here so aggressively opposing it.
I also concur this debacle with the Avenger was also a mistake on part of the Devs, but likely for different reasons. However there, if the table was flipped, I would be still be against the stunt that was pulled with releasing, and then re-releasing a ship in superior format.
Again, this part seems to try to summarize incorrectly. Three ships, which put a spin on the standard for Starfleet playstyle at monetary cost need a fix to keep up with power-creep, which is further fueled by Dev statements as of late. They need to be kept up with the Jones's here, as it's becoming a hindrance even by internal faction balance standards.
Yes Starfleet can be strong, it has flexibility and diversity, and limited cloaking is one of the flexibilities. Not all of the Federation have it, in fact it is around 10% of the end-game vessels; removing the console does nothing to diminish KDF in the grand scheme of things, the greatest risk to them is some more evenly-footed opponents in PvP. And either are just as likely to be torn apart by that JHAS in Ker'rat. :rolleyes:
I have fought a lot with Defiants and I tell you that fleet defiant has better turn,better shield mod ,better powerfire than any kdf escort .A defiant will make circles around any raptor and pivot issue does exists and yes I read the forums.
To balance the raptor class with a possible fleet defiant having innate battlecloak means making raptors smaller in size (to remove pivot issue -field vision if you want ) ,give them same turn rate and shield mod as Defiant and give them 5 tactical consoles.
More giving to raptor the same crew number as defiant because of how repair rate is calculated.In fact making a raptor with similar stats with a fleet defiant.
That would be in my opinion a fair price for a Defiant getting innate console.
You are kidding right ?
My romulan T'varo can fight with a fleet defiant easily and again i wouldnt try that with my somraw fleet raptor due to big difference in turn rate
My hafeh has +15 to weapons and 5 tac consoles while as kdf I don't have any escort class ship with 5 tac console .Federation have the kumari which is the best escort in game in my opinion.
Sorry I fail to follow your logic .How can a console slot value 2 console slots ?!
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Alot of universals remain excellent above their tier, the Aceton Assimilator is a shining example. But in the end, this statement is woefully incorrect; and in regards to this two-part falsity:
and
First line on the ship pages from the Wiki, and just look at the Ship store in game. I do believe tier 5 is endgame, which means these consoles and ships should be competitive even by your given perspective. Just to point out I do do my research on things. Which leads into...
It's a bug, a long-term bug but a bug none the less. You can't argue that a bug makes things balanced as once it's fixed that all changes, and I would not be surprised to see a fix for it in the near future with Devs suddenly pushing for KDF improvement if the trend holds true.
I personally don't notice it even in my thousand+ crew ships, though that could stem from the fact I'm so used to my squishy escorts I'm rely on aux-batt boosted healing powers and not the innate repair speed.
There seems to be cyclic logic here, or just dismissal of things present earlier in this debate. The console sacrifice to enable use of an ability that should be innate is the core conflict of the entire issue; intensified by we having Gorngozola stating standard cloaking isn't worth nerfing a ship. And the state of the game's power-creep means this ability which by those standards and all comparable standards should be innate, is woefully underpowering the ships they are on, to enable use of it. By your presented line of reasoning, the KDF ships should have their cloaking moved over to a console too. :rolleyes:
A bug is still a bug, you can try to claim Cryptic is using it as balance in the Mogh, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bug, and when it is fixed, that will cease to be a problem. As to working with that bug; you just assumed Fed-bias and spouted off in regards to my statement of crew sizes. I do not believe the Bastion is a Starfleet vessel, nor the Vo'Quv; which even in the latter I have excellent survivability.
Again, you're citing old standard in regards to standard cloaking, which Cryptic has done away with. Multiple old cloaking vessels could use a touch-up in light of it. With the game going the direction it is, I could probably tune up my Qin in the same manner of my Defiant, and end up with a superior ship despite the Qin's flaws due to Fleet consoles.
Oh look, this. Again. I think this is a dozen times now. The answer is not to penalize and diminish the Defiant and those who (paid to) fly it. The correct course here is to fix the Qin as well.
The Gal-X is so full of problems it deserves its own thread, which is has. As stated before, again, it's a pretty unique beast. Let's leave it at that.
Lore. Which again, now dozens of times stated, should have zero baring on game mechanics balance. If Lore was allowed to Lord over game mechanics, this game would be an even larger mess than it is today. Even the Big Bad WoW has had to work around its Lore to keep playing-fields even.
Again, do not try to argue Lore, it is irrelevant.
This statement is incorrect. If these ships were never design to cloak from the start, and were not added to the game with the ability to do so, your analog would be valid. It is not. These ships were designed and always intended to be cloaking vessels within the game. A better analog is a being given a sports car without the correct transmission; yes it works, but it is such a terrible fit it makes your car feel like garbage compared to the guy's next to you without the flaw.
And again, Romulans exist to be Romulans, not Starfleet nor KDF Captains. :rolleyes: They do not command Starfleet ships at Tier 5, they command Romulan Warbirds. Romulans are not the vaunted answer made out to be here, their own implementation was half-assed and forced to piggy-back on the existing factions.
Additionally, I am done with this repetition from you. You keep restating what is rebutted with nothing new to support it. You were completely incorrect about the tier these ships even exist in, which I even counterpointed before proving it wrong it entirely. Further cyclic statements will simply be referenced to prior quotes discounting them.
You only need three obscenely priced ships and then to sacrifice three console slots to battlecloak, hmm? Good times.
Old balance, many times established. A standard that has fallen to the wayside; and is now a severe point of inferiority. Unless you think all ships should go back to this standard of balance too? Debuffing the BCs and removing similar improvements over the years because that's the way it was intended to be back when they made all of this. :rolleyes:
The game has changed.
See: One more note on it. They cloak already, shown failing Defiant cloak or not; which to demand a failing cloak is just irrational thought as many ships could have their cloak have issues. So the IP is not upset by cloaking Federation ships. :rolleyes:
If you really want to go further down this road; the Starfleet cloak is comparable to the old Forsaken Holy Priests. The story didn't support them, but they existed for game balance. I presume you are against the Qang concept as well then as it fails to fall into your mindset of differentiation?
As for Romulans' role in the game:
Something to fix:
B'rel does get the FSM discount. But only if it's been properly bought from the C-store, Vet ship tokens don't count.
Unless it's bugged since last time I checked. Wouldn't surprise me.
It is very unlikely that the third ship would be available through the Lockbox or Lobi Store. I am thinking either doing the Tier 5 Dyson mission or it is the Anniversary ship. So 2 lockbox ships.
Ah, so it does fail to fall under your personal views. :P This is essentially a wait and see, I would think. We're seeing various tweaks to the game, with more to come. Admissibly it's of minimal relevance to this topic and was tossed out as a note of curiosity.
The KDF were given something they didn't have, and many players have used it to the full potential. It preforms like a heavy line cruiser, being tough and great for beam broadsiding; and even with DHCs and the autocannon console it emulates the Gal-X's one shot heavy-Alpha. The fact that it can run five tactical consoles lets it bring better pressure damage than the entire Starfleet cruiser line. Really it could almost pass as the Gal-X plus. Some food for thought there.
Again, failure to account for the paradigm shift over the years, or just oblivious to what was and is now. I recall the Defiant not even being an element of vexation back in the day, it was the Fleet Escort, now known as the Patrol Escort. I remember that being touted as the best Starfleet had and being idiot-proof until it was nerfed. :rolleyes: The tactical retro is from the aforementioned old balance, in which VA ships were not outright better than the RA options, just side-grades. But the shift in the concept of balance that makes VA grade vessels a step up, and especially with Fleet 5.5 tier, the sacrifice leaves it inferior.
But this doesn't include only the Defiant. The Avenger is now in a state a inferiority to its direct counterpart; requiring more financial and logistical expense to preform similarly in tactical options. And of course, the poor Gal-X which is such a bloody mess innate cloak would only be the tip of the iceburg needed to make it feel up to snuff. You have Gorngonzola's statement that standard cloak shouldn't cost anything for this concept being supercharged and being dug in on. The Cloak Console's continued existence is hypocritical when you hold it up to that, and devalues the Starfleet cloaking trio as well as the Qin.
In end though, everything just begins to crumble due to you inability to be truthful:
You did it again. Stating something in a factual context while being completely wrong. How many times are you going to be just plain wrong in your efforts to prop up your stance?
Right now, logged in on my KDF tact with the BoP... Fleet B'rel Retro, 1 module, like any other VA C-store upgrade. :rolleyes:
Or did you simply forget the B'rel Retro is VA too? If you can't be bothered to check the facts on the B'rel, or the Defiant nor Gal-X, what else are you going on about incorrectly? In the end, you are making false allegations and statements as though they were fact even when a moment's investigation would prove otherwise; and I can't help but feel the problem is you're so out of touch from reality you just can't see things as they really are.
And again resorting to blaming players for a mechanical balance; which one could spin it around and say the same about the Qin, or anything. People can make a good build, but the moment the go to try to get the same tactical flexibility these vessels are sold as having, especially in the case of the Avenger vs Mogh, is the same moment they do they become inferior. Not just to their Red counterparts, but even to their equivalents in the shipyard. Despite all being C-store ships, and with a hypocritical statement from a Dev on the matter of standard cloaking. Which these vessels have. Thus the point of this thread.
Even your 'facts' are filled with conjecture and personal beliefs.
Ironically you decry everyone here as wanting an advantage, not balance; when proposals such as innate cloaking would bring balance, cross-faction and internal. With the likelihood to nullify the KDF Mogh advantage. :P All three cloak-capable Starfleet ships are bought from the C-store, there is no free cloaker for blue. They should be kept up to speed with the power-creep, and thus need improvement in some form.
The problem is that there can only be one lockbox ship and lobi store ship for every lockbox and these are already given. Since the Bastion is available through the lockbox and the Palisade is available through the Lobi Store there is no way for the Bulwark to be available through the Voth Lockbox or Lobi Store. The devs have said that there is a special reward for getting to Tier 5 Dyson and there is the Anniversary Event which is supposed to be about the Dyson Sphere according to 2013 Reflections Dev Blog and both of these methods make sense for us getting a Voth Ship. The only other option is that it would be available the same way that the JHAS is available. Personally I think that this ship will be available through the Dyson Reputation and it will set the precedence to give an amazing free item for completing it for future reputations and maybe even the current ones.