Maybe I can send an email a day to Cryptic, begging for a fed cloak rework. Maybe a handwritten letter? I dunno.
(I'll try not to feed the troll next time. He's usually helpful in other threads, I assumed he'd see reason in this one.)
Enough people vocalizing their discontent over the matter could work as well. Anyone you know who is unhappy with this shift in balance, send them here to voice their concerns.
And yeah, seems Fed cloaking is his 'lose all rational thought' hot button.
Still... bit of a ripoff here. I already bought the Avenger. This is the Avenger. why do I have to buy it again? What if I bought the avenger and want the Fleet Mogh? I still have to pay a TRIBBLE-ton for fleet modules. I should get the Fleet Mogh for 1 module because I bought the Avenger already....
and this is the Avenger.
I honestly feel ripped off as well. I have all three of Starfleet's cloaking vessels, and they all feel diminished by this new development; even the brand new Avenger. If they don't rework Starfleet cloaking which requires real monetary investment, I just might stop putting money into the game.
Enough people vocalizing their discontent over the matter could work as well. Anyone you know who is unhappy with this shift in balance, send them here to voice their concerns.
And yeah, seems Fed cloaking is his 'lose all rational thought' hot button.
I honestly feel ripped off as well. I have all three of Starfleet's cloaking vessels, and they all feel diminished by this new development; even the brand new Avenger. If they don't rework Starfleet cloaking which requires real monetary investment, I just might stop putting money into the game.
Just read the Dev blog. This is unacceptable. Not only an innate cloak, but more crew as well? Jury's still out on their version of the missile launcher, but I think some explaining is in order here.
It all boils down to one major sticking point: If the ships are identical, let them be identical. If you're going to buff certain stats on one ship, nerf stats as well to keep them relatively even.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
I honestly feel ripped off as well. I have all three of Starfleet's cloaking vessels, and they all feel diminished by this new development; even the brand new Avenger. If they don't rework Starfleet cloaking which requires real monetary investment, I just might stop putting money into the game.
Personally, it's always bugged me that they would release a ship for $20+ but then release a ships with the exact same stats (or near enough) only to charge more money. I can understand that they need to make a profit, but at the same time, it's really annoying to have them just change the skins and an ability only to act like it's a brand new ship that they've spent months working on.
To be honest, they've been needing to rework cloak for quite some time, but since it would cost more money than it would make, it will probably never happen. Just look at all the other examples of this, the skins being head only is my biggest peev for some reason. PvP and the Undine STF are another good one. After they've changed so many different systems in the game, they really should have gone back to readjust a lot of the other systems as well to better fit into the newer additions.
If anything, i still feel that all cloak should be Battle cloak to fit canon better, but reasonably the 2 1/2 factions should get their own buffs. Klingons would be offensive, Romulans could be defensive, and the feds could have a third of those values for both?
Either way, it would be nice for the KDF and the Roms to have the integrated cloaks or better buffs to show that their ships were made to cloak, where the Feds ships had to be modified to do so.
There are a lot of interesting ways that the Cloak system could be revamped to fit into the current game build, but it is kind of sad that Cryptic isn't doing any of them to improve things.
Oh my. The Klingons have made a battlecruiser then Starfleet? How could a thing happen? It is like they have history making them or something.... :rolleyes:
Don't most of battles between Starfleet and KDF ships go like this.
The Klingons are cloaked
Starfleeters are taking damage
Starfleet has use their awesome sensors to find the cloaked ship
Starfleet has now blew up the evil Klingons and helped give countless young Klingons a reason to hate them.
You have tools to counter cloaking. Start using them please?
Oh my. The Klingons have made a battlecruiser then Starfleet? How could a thing happen? It is like they have history making them or something.... :rolleyes:
Don't most of battles between Starfleet and KDF ships go like this.
The Klingons are cloaked
Starfleeters are taking damage
Starfleet has use their awesome sensors to find the cloaked ship
Starfleet has now blew up the evil Klingons and helped give countless young Klingons a reason to hate them.
You have tools to counter cloaking. Start using them please?
If we were going by show rules, I'd just fly a Galaxy class and annihilate your little birds of prey easily. And you'd never kill me because I have plot-powered shielding.
Sardak (Science Officer): Captain of a 23k DPS R'Mor Temporal Science Vessel, R.R.W. Vathos Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
If we were going by show rules, I'd just fly a Galaxy class and annihilate your little birds of prey easily. And you'd never kill me because I have plot-powered shielding.
If we are talking the same level of tuning. Yes your Galaxy should be able to spot a cloaked bird of prey and take it out.
Those one hit knock out BoPs people keep talking about. Those are some of the best players in the KDF. They have tuned their stats and ships to near super levels. Why? Cause if they goof up there is next to nothing to save them. No high shield mod, no high hull. They have to run away and cloak if they don't take you out in the small window.
Edit: My KDF toons don't cloak. I hated flying the BoP and I do find it a little cheap in kerrat. Vo'Quvs are my ship of choice.
I just find to absolutely asinine that for the Avenger to have the same relative abilities as the Mogh, you would have to sacrifice 1/5 of your possible buffs from fleet consoles on a fleet version. That practically negates the bonuses of a Fleet-grade ship; Federation players have been gypped in this. It had been the case by a minor degree for all this time, but now with this, it's glaring. To cloak, Starfleet ships have to make themselves inferior otherwise by giving up possible shield boosts, resistances, turn rate... Just like KDF ships supposedly do, but they can now run that extra Fleet console to make up for it. Or in the Mogh's case, run one more and be totally superior.
If we were going by show rules, I'd just fly a Galaxy class and annihilate your little birds of prey easily. And you'd never kill me because I have plot-powered shielding.
(Also, just don't feed the troll. bitemepwe isn't here to debate, he's just here to preach the same disproved misinformation and strawman with lore)
He isn't trolling the KDF has a long history of being shafted and neglected because players like you always want to complain until features that should be KDF only are given to Feds. BITEMEPWE has been a long time defender of the KDFs right to exist as a faction, nothing wrong with that. This only makes the population disparity worse and means less attention for the KDF. Factions are not supposed to be 100% same carbon copies of each other or there is no reason to try others.
This means there will be strengths and weaknesses for each faction. YOU made the choice to play a cloaking ship in a faction that does not have cloaking as its strength and have to live with the consequences and accept its not as efficient as cloakers of other factions, or play a different faction, or play to your factions strengths which is stronger tankier cruisers and better sci ships. You don't see the KDF demanding our battlecruisers be given as much hull and shields as Fed ships because we aren't supposed to have that, its not our factions strength.
Making all factions the same is not the answer and is not good long term for STO or any mmo.
Hi, you must be new here, I'd advocate reading through the forums. You'll find bitemepwe doing little more than strawman arguments and trolling to defend his red-biased laced views. You'll find those claims for KDF ships to have the stats of Fed ships, or have obscene traits like 9 weapon slots with battlcloaking. And if you've been keeping up, you'd find that the Mogh is everything the Avenger is, and then some. Also if you look in game you find those Romulans fighting with Starfleet, making the Red-Blue cloak debate quite academic to begin with.
If you look over my posts here as well, you'll find I have been saying the system as a whole needs a rework now, with the Mogh setting the new standard it is. Improve the cloaking ships for Starfleet, and KDF. The frothing fanboys seem to overlook that when they attack my posts.
if they aren't researching cloaks anymore, and my cloaking device is indeed just a hunk of contraband I pulled out of my Defiant, then I need to be able to mount it to any ship I please. I agree with you, and I like your idea. Can't wait to cloak my Atrox!
I cant wait to battle cloak my Mogh, but its not gonna happen. The Avenger was designed to accept a cloaking device, the Atrox was not.
I cant wait to battle cloak my Mogh, but its not gonna happen. The Avenger was designed to accept a cloaking device, the Atrox was not.
I donn't think that would be correct. The Federation has a cloaking device. It's a phased cloaking device that seems able to be put on any ship. They were able to take it off one ship and put it on the Enterprise so one must assume they would be able to put it on any ship.
So they should make the cloak that's in game a device and make it usable on any ship. The treaty that prevented the Federation from having one would seem to be null and void at this point so there's no reason for the Federation not to have one at this point on all ships.
(Also, just don't feed the troll. bitemepwe isn't here to debate, he's just here to preach the same disproved misinformation and strawman with lore)
What disproved information?
That the Defiant and AGT Galx once had innate cloaking but fewer consoles and where changed to have a cloaking device and extra consoles so it would not be a burden to them?
That's in the game release notes for all to see and read for themselves.
That the Avenger skirts the UFP presidential mandate against cloaking by not having a cloak but being able to use an existing cloak device if the player owns one?
That's fact as well and fits back to the first bit of information that feds have to use a Cloaking device to cloak and a console slot to use said device.
That such are the rules for allowed federation cloaking ingame made so by the demands of the playerbase years ago because they found standard cloak to be a handicap in PvE?
Where am I lying or playing strawman?
The feds where given a ship that falls well within the lines of how fed ships are designed and the KDF where given one that falls well within the lines of how they design ships. No rules have been broken. No imbalance is accrued due to one little console slot that you have to use for a device that doesn't even come on the ship.
This is the same dead horse that others have been beating into glue for years now.
It still holds no weight as the strawman arguments that the single console slot used makes or breaks your ship is not valid, and it never has been.
Lets look at the stats though,
Tactical Escort Retrofit
30,000 hull
0.9 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/eng/sci slots
17 turn rate Better shield mod and better turn rate + cloak capable.
versus
Qin Heavy Raptor
33,000 hull
0.83 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
15 turn rate more hull/ innate cloaking
Funny the only imbalance their is against the KDF.
AGT dreadnought
40,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
6 turn Spinal lance/ more hull/ cloak capable
I donn't think that would be correct. The Federation has a cloaking device. It's a phased cloaking device that seems able to be put on any ship. They were able to take it off one ship and put it on the Enterprise so one must assume they would be able to put it on any ship.
So they should make the cloak that's in game a device and make it usable on any ship. The treaty that prevented the Federation from having one would seem to be null and void at this point so there's no reason for the Federation not to have one at this point on all ships.
As long as it has the option to trap a ship in a asteroid, sure.
How is the treaty void though, did UFP president Aniek die? Did the new UFP president remove the old executive order?
I have an idea. What about just buffing the console so it does more then just cloak? Also while Starfleet and the KDF are fighting I'm pretty sure the Republic is drinking Romulan ale and laughing.
I have an idea. What about just buffing the console so it does more then just cloak? Also while Starfleet and the KDF are fighting I'm pretty sure the Republic is drinking Romulan ale and laughing.
as well as shaking their heads in disgust at having to rely on whiny children to help get their fledgling faction off the ground...and i'm saying that against both sides, not just one
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bitemepwe really needs to just crawl back under that rock, but as he's spouted stats without the true context, time to play clean-up.
Defiant vs Qin, the only argument that roughly holds water.
Tactical Escort Retrofit
30,000 hull
0.9 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/eng/sci slots
17 turn rate Cloak via console, which means one less Mk XII Fleet console than it could run if cloak was innate.
vs
Qin Heavy Raptor
33,000 hull
0.83 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
15 turn
Innate cloak, which means it can supplement and even overcome its weaknesses with the slot is doesn't have to use. A Fleet RCS XII is a whopping +42.5% turn rate, for instance, even before its other attributes.
The next batch is a bit of a discrepancy, as the Dread Gal-X was designed to not be a battle cruiser.
AGT dreadnought
40,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
6 turn
The innate spinal lance is very inaccurate, with a narrow arc considering terrible turn rate of the ship it is mounted on. As above, to cloak, it gives up a precious slot that could mount a Mk XII Fleet console.
vs
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Retrofit
36,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
10 turn
Innate cloaking, and KDF's bread and butter BC. As with the Qin, it can run a full slew of Mk XIIs to overcome the 'weakness' that this ship has.
And now the shining example of why things have become so bad.
Avenger
37,500 hull
1 shield mod
4 4 1 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
9 turn
Cloak via console, as the prior two. VATA can be nice.
vs
Mogh
37,500 hull
1 shield mod
4 4 1 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
9 turn Innate cloak. No drawbacks, the DDDS even looks inherently better than the VATA.
Enough with the lies. The rules have changed. The balance has shifted. These ships need to be brought into the new balance.
He isn't trolling the KDF has a long history of being shafted and neglected because players like you always want to complain until features that should be KDF only are given to Feds. BITEMEPWE has been a long time defender of the KDFs right to exist as a faction, nothing wrong with that. This only makes the population disparity worse and means less attention for the KDF. Factions are not supposed to be 100% same carbon copies of each other or there is no reason to try others.
This means there will be strengths and weaknesses for each faction. YOU made the choice to play a cloaking ship in a faction that does not have cloaking as its strength and have to live with the consequences and accept its not as efficient as cloakers of other factions, or play a different faction, or play to your factions strengths which is stronger tankier cruisers and better sci ships. You don't see the KDF demanding our battlecruisers be given as much hull and shields as Fed ships because we aren't supposed to have that, its not our factions strength.
Making all factions the same is not the answer and is not good long term for STO or any mmo.
Actually, I HAVE seen KDF posts that their ships should get boosts. Also, As far as the factions supposed to be unique, I agree with you there. But that should mean, in the Fed's case, having far more variety of sci ships, and cruisers, plus mainstream escorts, than the KDF.
In the KDF's case, that should mean the BoP line, battlecruisers, and full carriers get to pretty much be their province.
Now, I don't necessarily mean that each should get nothing out of those categories, but what one is strong in, the other side should get relatively little. In the case of the KDF, for example, again, they should have few sci vessels, few mainstream escorts, and few if any main cruisers.
The Feds should have few full carriers, (and I think most would agree with this one) at best, one BoP type, if any at all. Also, Feds should not have a variety of battle-cruisers.
I think that takes care of the "ship" uniqueness between the two.
As far as consoles, I think better development could be had, in making balanced, but faction unique consoles. Some, should find their way to be cross-faction at some point. (Yes, most likely through the lockbox gimmick). But some should stay exclusive.
Now, note, that I didn't include the Rihan in this. Mostly, because their ship and console lineups are immature as of yet, they haven't had the longetivity to build up many of either, compared to other two. However, I think this trend towards bigger and bigger Warbirds (and any ship, period), is a bad thing. I'd like to see a return to more mid-sized, and smaller ships.
As well, I'd like to see more variety of shuttlecraft sized ships for all factions (although the KDF & Rihan should get theirs first), as well as a ton more content that actually makes use of shuttlecraft.
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As far as consoles, I think better development could be had, in making balanced, but faction unique consoles. Some, should find their way to be cross-faction at some point. (Yes, most likely through the lockbox gimmick). But some should stay exclusive.
Now, note, that I didn't include the Rihan in this. Mostly, because their ship and console lineups are immature as of yet, they haven't had the longetivity to build up many of either, compared to other two. However, I think this trend towards bigger and bigger Warbirds (and any ship, period), is a bad thing. I'd like to see a return to more mid-sized, and smaller ships.
As well, I'd like to see more variety of shuttlecraft sized ships for all factions (although the KDF & Rihan should get theirs first), as well as a ton more content that actually makes use of shuttlecraft.
Since the Klingons get the Avenger build ship with innate cloak it proves it can be done on any ship. Long ago, the GX and the Defiant had them innate, but I also recall a ton of complaints posted on the forums about hit and run tactics, most of the ships previously had innate functions that were removed and given 'special consoles'. Frankly we all know the reason, balance.
With the Klingon War coming to an end hopefully in the near future, it wouldn't surprise me if just the 'cloaking ability' becomes innate with some of the equal Federation ships with ties to KDF skins.
The real problem we're staring at now, is that devs are on record as saying they don't believe standard cloak is enough to warrant a cost, to KDF. However for Federation, it is perfectly acceptable to not only sacrifice a console slot, but in the case of the Avenger, have to shell out another 20 bucks for a different ship entirely to pull the console from. We have a brutal double-standard glaring back at us.
Correct. Standard Cloak isn't enough to warrant reducing the effectiveness of this ship or improving the Avenger in my opinion. The massive advantage that the Avenger has is that it gives fed players the ability to fly a faction specific battlecruiser, which is a ship class previously unavailable to them.
...
Ultimately though, some concessions had to be made for the Avenger, which in my opinion is a super rock solid ship. It's starfleet, so it shouldn't have cloak without some cost. This precedence has been set with both the Galaxy X and the Tactical Escort Retrofit. It would be a slippery slope to start giving fed ships free cloaking devices.
...
Had we given the Avenger Cloak, we'd embark on a slippery slope where similar fed ships would be expected to have cloak.
But what we are basically being told is, yes, we need to pay, despite the dynamic shifts in power with the fleet system, despite paying just as much, if not more for our ships. Basically being told that we must spend more logistically, sacrifice flexibility or durability, and shell out the money to the store; to get what is considered 'of no cost' to another faction. Ironically the very things KDF have argued that they have had to do for a cloak, which is now apparently 'no cost'.
The Devs should go back and bump up the older ships, and they damn well should make good on this massive snafu they've gone and done in terms of producing 'balanced' ships.
Pull your head out your backside Terongrey. I did not lie. Those are the differences in the ships and the fed vessels whom have cloak are not handicapped in any way. Especially since Dil mine consoles now have dual function stats to work like two consoles in one.
If you vant make a Defiant or Dreadnought or even the Avenger work buildwise due to one little console slot then you are doing something wrong.
But go ahead and throw more insults back at me and ignore the fact that cloaking for the feds is a bonus ability and not a given right. The Devs gave it so fans could play some iconic ship choices and a fed battlecruiser variant they can call their own.
Cloaking fornthe feds is a gift not an entitlement.
for a long time now many of us have just muttered 'it sure sucks being kdf' when the feds get their monthly shiny. maybe just this one time feddies can find it in themselves to suck it up and say 'sometimes it sure sucks being a fed' and just get over it already.
Actually, I HAVE seen KDF posts that their ships should get boosts. Also, As far as the factions supposed to be unique, I agree with you there. But that should mean, in the Fed's case, having far more variety of sci ships, and cruisers, plus mainstream escorts, than the KDF.
In the KDF's case, that should mean the BoP line, battlecruisers, and full carriers get to pretty much be their province.
Now, I don't necessarily mean that each should get nothing out of those categories, but what one is strong in, the other side should get relatively little. In the case of the KDF, for example, again, they should have few sci vessels, few mainstream escorts, and few if any main cruisers.
The Feds should have few full carriers, (and I think most would agree with this one) at best, one BoP type, if any at all. Also, Feds should not have a variety of battle-cruisers.
I think that takes care of the "ship" uniqueness between the two.
As far as consoles, I think better development could be had, in making balanced, but faction unique consoles. Some, should find their way to be cross-faction at some point. (Yes, most likely through the lockbox gimmick). But some should stay exclusive.
Now, note, that I didn't include the Rihan in this. Mostly, because their ship and console lineups are immature as of yet, they haven't had the longetivity to build up many of either, compared to other two. However, I think this trend towards bigger and bigger Warbirds (and any ship, period), is a bad thing. I'd like to see a return to more mid-sized, and smaller ships.
As well, I'd like to see more variety of shuttlecraft sized ships for all factions (although the KDF & Rihan should get theirs first), as well as a ton more content that actually makes use of shuttlecraft.
Yes, and in the past that 'balance' was respected. In the past, the Federation had no carriers, and a good slate of science ships, escorts, and cruisers that formed a solid trinity when utilized in a team. The KDF had its cloaks, BoPs, battlecruisers, and carriers. It also had some good universal consoles that sorta helped compensate for the general lack of ship variety, at least in the minds of some players (including myself).
The problem is, these things have been encroached upon. It truly started with the Atrox, I think. Federation now has the Atrox and two GOOD hybrid carriers (Vesta and Armitage), and recently got the Avenger, their first truly competitive battlecruiser. Then there's the problem of KDF consoles being available to Federation players for cheaper than what KDF can get 'em, for the most part (KDF has an 'edge' if they're buying the console for use on lots of characters, because it's an account-wide unlock). Add in the superior Fed numbers with access to Federation-Romulan characters with Romulan ships. . .and the Fed lineup has essentially NO weaknesses, no give-and-take. Meanwhile, the combined KDF + Romulan lineup is still science-weak and variety-weak (due to the KDF having 22 less ships than Federation, all in the T5 rankings), and inherently less balanced.
So, this 'balance' in terms of ship availability/strength of ship lines is all well and good, but it has to be respected for BOTH sides in order to work. We haven't been seeing that over the last 1.5-2 years. If we were getting that, the KDF would have 6-7 T5 science ships rather than 3. Or the KDF would have more destroyers and raptors, at least.
As for the Mogh battlecruiser being a clone of the Avenger with an innate cloak. . .I see this is as a preservation of the KDF's traditional advantages in battlecruisers. I mean, seriously: The Avenger is basically better than all the other KDF battlecruisers except the Mogh. The Mogh helps preserve the fact that throughout the entire span of this game's lifetime, the KDF has ALWAYS had the edge in cruisers. It's one of the few things the KDF has left 'exclusively', despite encroachment in the form of Romulan warbirds and the Avenger. I LIKE the fact that the devs decided to respect that. It's like how they decided to let the KDF keep a slight edge in carriers via the Kar'fi and some cool pets. I don't agree with Feddies having carriers at all, but at least the KDF's keeping something there.
You Feddies just need to get used to not having the best of the best in every friggin ship category. How about you just be happy with the fact that you've got better escort and science ship lines than the KDF, hmm? Oh, and 22 more T5 ships to pick from, including the 3-pack variants.
Justification for the lack of balance when it is in your favor is just because it's your side on the receiving end for one, just demonstrates petty selfishness. So all of your arguing it's fine, next time you feel things are unfair, just remember, it's fine because you got the Mogh. Unless you still think KDF/Federation disparity should be equalized, which in that case it is time to nut-up or shut-up, and strike while the iron's hot. The counterargument to cloaking balance is a two-way street.
And as always, there is the willful ignorance of the full concept of re-balancing cloaking that at least some people have proposed. Going back and fixing up those ships which were rendered obsolete in game-mechanic balance standards, both for Starfleet, and KDF. Or are you all really so petty as to refute the prospect of fixing the Qin and such with this concept just to deny the three Starfleet vessels that can, a chance of balanced cloaking?
Starfleet ships already pay for their cloaking with being only C-Store ships. It is not a fleet-wide thing, nor should it ever be. Startfleet should not universally cloak. However we do have a select range of vessels which can for tactical purposes, and as such, their cloak should be worthwhile. The cost is financial, and as it stands, an unfairly heavy one for people who want a cloaking Avenger and need to buy one of the other two ships for the console to get it; not even factoring the in-game logistical cost. Any who argue otherwise while flying their Mogh is just a grotesque hypocrite.
Sometimes I wish people who selected 'Empire Veteran' as their forum tag were locked out of the Blue section. They seem to be the main sources of trolling, insults and pesonal attacks, and petty opposition to ideas based off of perceived injustices they deserve reparations for. I don't recall seeing much of the reverse.
Sometimes I wish people who selected 'Empire Veteran' as their forum tag were locked out of the Blue section. They seem to be the main sources of trolling, insults and pesonal attacks, and petty opposition to ideas based off of perceived injustices they deserve reparations for. I don't recall seeing much of the reverse.
The only thing I can offer to this is, 1 the fed's have outdated cloaking tech 2 all ships with non battle cloaks use a M/AM warpcore which may have some relevance to the matter, while warbirds use singularity cores. Again this is just from a game system point of view and, may really not have anything to do with the actual facts. But it does point out that only ships using a singularity core gain the ability of a battle cloak and, may play some role into how they operate vs an M/AM core and cloaking tech.
That point is relying heavily on Lore speculation. This is a matter of game mechanics balance. Lore and game mechanics are like church and state, they should always be kept separate. Look at The Big MMO, in which they permitted players to choose non-lore supported class specs for the sake of game mechanics balance. When you let one influence the other, you just end up with a hot mess.
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Enough people vocalizing their discontent over the matter could work as well. Anyone you know who is unhappy with this shift in balance, send them here to voice their concerns.
And yeah, seems Fed cloaking is his 'lose all rational thought' hot button.
I honestly feel ripped off as well. I have all three of Starfleet's cloaking vessels, and they all feel diminished by this new development; even the brand new Avenger. If they don't rework Starfleet cloaking which requires real monetary investment, I just might stop putting money into the game.
Just read the Dev blog. This is unacceptable. Not only an innate cloak, but more crew as well? Jury's still out on their version of the missile launcher, but I think some explaining is in order here.
It all boils down to one major sticking point: If the ships are identical, let them be identical. If you're going to buff certain stats on one ship, nerf stats as well to keep them relatively even.
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Personally, it's always bugged me that they would release a ship for $20+ but then release a ships with the exact same stats (or near enough) only to charge more money. I can understand that they need to make a profit, but at the same time, it's really annoying to have them just change the skins and an ability only to act like it's a brand new ship that they've spent months working on.
To be honest, they've been needing to rework cloak for quite some time, but since it would cost more money than it would make, it will probably never happen. Just look at all the other examples of this, the skins being head only is my biggest peev for some reason. PvP and the Undine STF are another good one. After they've changed so many different systems in the game, they really should have gone back to readjust a lot of the other systems as well to better fit into the newer additions.
If anything, i still feel that all cloak should be Battle cloak to fit canon better, but reasonably the 2 1/2 factions should get their own buffs. Klingons would be offensive, Romulans could be defensive, and the feds could have a third of those values for both?
Either way, it would be nice for the KDF and the Roms to have the integrated cloaks or better buffs to show that their ships were made to cloak, where the Feds ships had to be modified to do so.
There are a lot of interesting ways that the Cloak system could be revamped to fit into the current game build, but it is kind of sad that Cryptic isn't doing any of them to improve things.
Don't most of battles between Starfleet and KDF ships go like this.
The Klingons are cloaked
Starfleeters are taking damage
Starfleet has use their awesome sensors to find the cloaked ship
Starfleet has now blew up the evil Klingons and helped give countless young Klingons a reason to hate them.
You have tools to counter cloaking. Start using them please?
If we were going by show rules, I'd just fly a Galaxy class and annihilate your little birds of prey easily. And you'd never kill me because I have plot-powered shielding.
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
If we are talking the same level of tuning. Yes your Galaxy should be able to spot a cloaked bird of prey and take it out.
Those one hit knock out BoPs people keep talking about. Those are some of the best players in the KDF. They have tuned their stats and ships to near super levels. Why? Cause if they goof up there is next to nothing to save them. No high shield mod, no high hull. They have to run away and cloak if they don't take you out in the small window.
Edit: My KDF toons don't cloak. I hated flying the BoP and I do find it a little cheap in kerrat. Vo'Quvs are my ship of choice.
He isn't trolling the KDF has a long history of being shafted and neglected because players like you always want to complain until features that should be KDF only are given to Feds. BITEMEPWE has been a long time defender of the KDFs right to exist as a faction, nothing wrong with that. This only makes the population disparity worse and means less attention for the KDF. Factions are not supposed to be 100% same carbon copies of each other or there is no reason to try others.
This means there will be strengths and weaknesses for each faction. YOU made the choice to play a cloaking ship in a faction that does not have cloaking as its strength and have to live with the consequences and accept its not as efficient as cloakers of other factions, or play a different faction, or play to your factions strengths which is stronger tankier cruisers and better sci ships. You don't see the KDF demanding our battlecruisers be given as much hull and shields as Fed ships because we aren't supposed to have that, its not our factions strength.
Making all factions the same is not the answer and is not good long term for STO or any mmo.
If you look over my posts here as well, you'll find I have been saying the system as a whole needs a rework now, with the Mogh setting the new standard it is. Improve the cloaking ships for Starfleet, and KDF. The frothing fanboys seem to overlook that when they attack my posts.
I cant wait to battle cloak my Mogh, but its not gonna happen. The Avenger was designed to accept a cloaking device, the Atrox was not.
R.I.P
I donn't think that would be correct. The Federation has a cloaking device. It's a phased cloaking device that seems able to be put on any ship. They were able to take it off one ship and put it on the Enterprise so one must assume they would be able to put it on any ship.
So they should make the cloak that's in game a device and make it usable on any ship. The treaty that prevented the Federation from having one would seem to be null and void at this point so there's no reason for the Federation not to have one at this point on all ships.
What disproved information?
That the Defiant and AGT Galx once had innate cloaking but fewer consoles and where changed to have a cloaking device and extra consoles so it would not be a burden to them?
That's in the game release notes for all to see and read for themselves.
That the Avenger skirts the UFP presidential mandate against cloaking by not having a cloak but being able to use an existing cloak device if the player owns one?
That's fact as well and fits back to the first bit of information that feds have to use a Cloaking device to cloak and a console slot to use said device.
That such are the rules for allowed federation cloaking ingame made so by the demands of the playerbase years ago because they found standard cloak to be a handicap in PvE?
Where am I lying or playing strawman?
The feds where given a ship that falls well within the lines of how fed ships are designed and the KDF where given one that falls well within the lines of how they design ships. No rules have been broken. No imbalance is accrued due to one little console slot that you have to use for a device that doesn't even come on the ship.
This is the same dead horse that others have been beating into glue for years now.
It still holds no weight as the strawman arguments that the single console slot used makes or breaks your ship is not valid, and it never has been.
Lets look at the stats though,
Tactical Escort Retrofit
30,000 hull
0.9 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/eng/sci slots
17 turn rate Better shield mod and better turn rate + cloak capable.
versus
Qin Heavy Raptor
33,000 hull
0.83 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
15 turn rate more hull/ innate cloaking
Funny the only imbalance their is against the KDF.
AGT dreadnought
40,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
6 turn Spinal lance/ more hull/ cloak capable
versus
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Retrofit
36,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
10 turn innate cloaking/more turn/less hull
Both comparisons have the same Boff setups.
I'm seeing only balance, just as I only see balance between the Avenger and the Mogh.
but go ahead and stamp your feet some more and cry about being dissed and the injustice of it all. Its what we've come to expect.
R.I.P
How is the treaty void though, did UFP president Aniek die? Did the new UFP president remove the old executive order?
R.I.P
I'm the emperor of the federation and since I don't support the treaty it is null and void cause of me!
Annek took a long walk down airlock lane.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Defiant vs Qin, the only argument that roughly holds water.
Tactical Escort Retrofit
30,000 hull
0.9 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/eng/sci slots
17 turn rate
Cloak via console, which means one less Mk XII Fleet console than it could run if cloak was innate.
vs
Qin Heavy Raptor
33,000 hull
0.83 shield mod
4 3 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
15 turn
Innate cloak, which means it can supplement and even overcome its weaknesses with the slot is doesn't have to use. A Fleet RCS XII is a whopping +42.5% turn rate, for instance, even before its other attributes.
The next batch is a bit of a discrepancy, as the Dread Gal-X was designed to not be a battle cruiser.
AGT dreadnought
40,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
6 turn
The innate spinal lance is very inaccurate, with a narrow arc considering terrible turn rate of the ship it is mounted on. As above, to cloak, it gives up a precious slot that could mount a Mk XII Fleet console.
vs
Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Retrofit
36,000 hull
1 shield mod
3 4 2 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
10 turn
Innate cloaking, and KDF's bread and butter BC. As with the Qin, it can run a full slew of Mk XIIs to overcome the 'weakness' that this ship has.
And now the shining example of why things have become so bad.
Avenger
37,500 hull
1 shield mod
4 4 1 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
9 turn
Cloak via console, as the prior two. VATA can be nice.
vs
Mogh
37,500 hull
1 shield mod
4 4 1 Tac/Eng/Sci slots
9 turn
Innate cloak. No drawbacks, the DDDS even looks inherently better than the VATA.
Enough with the lies. The rules have changed. The balance has shifted. These ships need to be brought into the new balance.
Actually, I HAVE seen KDF posts that their ships should get boosts. Also, As far as the factions supposed to be unique, I agree with you there. But that should mean, in the Fed's case, having far more variety of sci ships, and cruisers, plus mainstream escorts, than the KDF.
In the KDF's case, that should mean the BoP line, battlecruisers, and full carriers get to pretty much be their province.
Now, I don't necessarily mean that each should get nothing out of those categories, but what one is strong in, the other side should get relatively little. In the case of the KDF, for example, again, they should have few sci vessels, few mainstream escorts, and few if any main cruisers.
The Feds should have few full carriers, (and I think most would agree with this one) at best, one BoP type, if any at all. Also, Feds should not have a variety of battle-cruisers.
I think that takes care of the "ship" uniqueness between the two.
As far as consoles, I think better development could be had, in making balanced, but faction unique consoles. Some, should find their way to be cross-faction at some point. (Yes, most likely through the lockbox gimmick). But some should stay exclusive.
Now, note, that I didn't include the Rihan in this. Mostly, because their ship and console lineups are immature as of yet, they haven't had the longetivity to build up many of either, compared to other two. However, I think this trend towards bigger and bigger Warbirds (and any ship, period), is a bad thing. I'd like to see a return to more mid-sized, and smaller ships.
As well, I'd like to see more variety of shuttlecraft sized ships for all factions (although the KDF & Rihan should get theirs first), as well as a ton more content that actually makes use of shuttlecraft.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
Since the Klingons get the Avenger build ship with innate cloak it proves it can be done on any ship. Long ago, the GX and the Defiant had them innate, but I also recall a ton of complaints posted on the forums about hit and run tactics, most of the ships previously had innate functions that were removed and given 'special consoles'. Frankly we all know the reason, balance.
With the Klingon War coming to an end hopefully in the near future, it wouldn't surprise me if just the 'cloaking ability' becomes innate with some of the equal Federation ships with ties to KDF skins.
The full post is here.
But what we are basically being told is, yes, we need to pay, despite the dynamic shifts in power with the fleet system, despite paying just as much, if not more for our ships. Basically being told that we must spend more logistically, sacrifice flexibility or durability, and shell out the money to the store; to get what is considered 'of no cost' to another faction. Ironically the very things KDF have argued that they have had to do for a cloak, which is now apparently 'no cost'.
The Devs should go back and bump up the older ships, and they damn well should make good on this massive snafu they've gone and done in terms of producing 'balanced' ships.
If you vant make a Defiant or Dreadnought or even the Avenger work buildwise due to one little console slot then you are doing something wrong.
But go ahead and throw more insults back at me and ignore the fact that cloaking for the feds is a bonus ability and not a given right. The Devs gave it so fans could play some iconic ship choices and a fed battlecruiser variant they can call their own.
Cloaking fornthe feds is a gift not an entitlement.
R.I.P
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Yes, and in the past that 'balance' was respected. In the past, the Federation had no carriers, and a good slate of science ships, escorts, and cruisers that formed a solid trinity when utilized in a team. The KDF had its cloaks, BoPs, battlecruisers, and carriers. It also had some good universal consoles that sorta helped compensate for the general lack of ship variety, at least in the minds of some players (including myself).
The problem is, these things have been encroached upon. It truly started with the Atrox, I think. Federation now has the Atrox and two GOOD hybrid carriers (Vesta and Armitage), and recently got the Avenger, their first truly competitive battlecruiser. Then there's the problem of KDF consoles being available to Federation players for cheaper than what KDF can get 'em, for the most part (KDF has an 'edge' if they're buying the console for use on lots of characters, because it's an account-wide unlock). Add in the superior Fed numbers with access to Federation-Romulan characters with Romulan ships. . .and the Fed lineup has essentially NO weaknesses, no give-and-take. Meanwhile, the combined KDF + Romulan lineup is still science-weak and variety-weak (due to the KDF having 22 less ships than Federation, all in the T5 rankings), and inherently less balanced.
So, this 'balance' in terms of ship availability/strength of ship lines is all well and good, but it has to be respected for BOTH sides in order to work. We haven't been seeing that over the last 1.5-2 years. If we were getting that, the KDF would have 6-7 T5 science ships rather than 3. Or the KDF would have more destroyers and raptors, at least.
You Feddies just need to get used to not having the best of the best in every friggin ship category. How about you just be happy with the fact that you've got better escort and science ship lines than the KDF, hmm? Oh, and 22 more T5 ships to pick from, including the 3-pack variants.
And as always, there is the willful ignorance of the full concept of re-balancing cloaking that at least some people have proposed. Going back and fixing up those ships which were rendered obsolete in game-mechanic balance standards, both for Starfleet, and KDF. Or are you all really so petty as to refute the prospect of fixing the Qin and such with this concept just to deny the three Starfleet vessels that can, a chance of balanced cloaking?
Starfleet ships already pay for their cloaking with being only C-Store ships. It is not a fleet-wide thing, nor should it ever be. Startfleet should not universally cloak. However we do have a select range of vessels which can for tactical purposes, and as such, their cloak should be worthwhile. The cost is financial, and as it stands, an unfairly heavy one for people who want a cloaking Avenger and need to buy one of the other two ships for the console to get it; not even factoring the in-game logistical cost. Any who argue otherwise while flying their Mogh is just a grotesque hypocrite.
Sometimes I wish people who selected 'Empire Veteran' as their forum tag were locked out of the Blue section. They seem to be the main sources of trolling, insults and pesonal attacks, and petty opposition to ideas based off of perceived injustices they deserve reparations for. I don't recall seeing much of the reverse.
^^^ ROFLMAO!!! :P
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Also, BoPs are Warp-Core powered with B-cloak.