Here's the natural progression of these kind of things...
First, it's claiming "game Balance"-but how long after the protest do we wait for the next one-because Romulans, after all, have Battlecloaks-so, for "balance" the fed players will demand that their Defiant not only have cloak-but, Battle-Cloak. So, shortly after Cryptic bends to demand again...they'll want their shields to stay up like the Romulans do.
While cloaked.
and of course, after the Defiant gets its battle-cloak-with-shields, the next step is to demand it for ALL federation ships...in the name of "balance". After all, the KDF has a whole LINE of cloak-enabled ships, and so do the Romulans...
It happened with Carriers, it's going on now with Battlecruisers. it'll be going on with Raiders (the rumblings have already begun).
It's not about "Balance" it's about "Best".
You honestly believe that if they were to re-integrate the cloaking device *every* Federation player would instantly flip over to using the Defiant? I'm not talking about Battle Cloak, just normal run of the mill cloak, to do Alpha strikes on PvE, you know, the aspect of this game Federation players actually play
Every time someone brings up integrating cloak on any thread, the KDF players cry unfair for PvP balance. One adjustment to three ships isn't going to change the problem PvP has in this game, that being the players themselves.
That's why I don't play and never will play PvP. I have friends that are pretty good, but I get sick and tired of adding more people to my ignore list after every match.
So again I offer this, make these three ships have integrated cloaking for every part of the game outside PvP, where it would require a console. That way the vast majority of Federation players are happy because they get a nice buff, and KDF players are happy because said buff doesn't effect them in any way.
Cryptic makes money because the ships are more viable, Fed players enjoy PvE and PvP remains as it has since the game came out. Everybody wins, nobody losses.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
You honestly believe that if they were to re-integrate the cloaking device *every* Federation player would instantly flip over to using the Defiant? I'm not talking about Battle Cloak, just normal run of the mill cloak, to do Alpha strikes on PvE, you know, the aspect of this game Federation players actually play
Every time someone brings up integrating cloak on any thread, the KDF players cry unfair for PvP balance. One adjustment to three ships isn't going to change the problem PvP has in this game, that being the players themselves.
That's why I don't play and never will play PvP. I have friends that are pretty good, but I get sick and tired of adding more people to my ignore list after every match.
So again I offer this, make these three ships have integrated cloaking for every part of the game outside PvP, where it would require a console. That way the vast majority of Federation players are happy because they get a nice buff, and KDF players are happy because said buff doesn't effect them in any way.
Cryptic makes money because the ships are more viable, Fed players enjoy PvE and PvP remains as it has since the game came out. Everybody wins, nobody losses.
I hate repeating myself. Don't much about pvp. I do it but I don't care much about it. This is not about pvp for me anyway.
So the faster version I what I said last time.
Galaxy: Suuuurrrreeee....if they can't find a better way of buffing the bird.
Fed Battlecrusier: Make it more Starfleet then KDF
Defiant: Move one of those tac consoles over to eng sure. Turn it into a pure copy of Qin.
I hate repeating myself. Don't much about pvp. I do it but I don't care much about it. This is not about pvp for me anyway.
So the faster version I what I said last time.
Galaxy: Suuuurrrreeee....if they can't find a better way of buffing the bird.
Fed Battlecrusier: Make it more Starfleet then KDF
Defiant: Move one of those tac consoles over to eng sure. Turn it into a pure copy of Qin.
Anything else?
For you its not, but from what I can tell KDF players only care about how this would affect PvP. I figure if we make it so things remain exactly as they are in PvP now, they wont mind or care in any way.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
This thread is like a car spinning it's wheels in the mud - it's throwing TRIBBLE around but going no where.
If cryptic was going to make money off selling an integrated cloak on a Fed ship - they missed that opportunity by not doing it with the Avenger.
They have provided Fed players a way to get new ships with better cloaks then what the kdf have - it's called a Fed aligned romulan. There you can spend lots more money and get an integrated battlecloak.
Pve is so face roll easy with a 5 fore gun - 5 tac console ship - anyone that needs a cloak to make it should invest time into learning the game.
So that just leaves PvP - and there are perhaps 100 people max that would use an cloaking avenger I'm PvP?? Does not make a lot of sense for cryptic to make any chances. PvP is mostly dominated by lock-box ships - at least the higher end players. And PvP is pretty much on its way out in STO - which is sad because it's probably the only challenging content left I'm the game.
I have an idea, since some fed types don't seem to get how cloak works other then it works. I say understanding be inflicted on them. for one month they get their wish only the ship stats are replace with one of Klingon ship's stat's. everyone with these ships gets switched no opting out.
for the Defiant. my good friend the Hegh'ta
for the Galaxy, the qin
for the avenger, not the mogh but Negh'Var. after all this for understanding not balance.
once the month is up everything is switched back. then they get to vote, no cloak. or cloak with same klingon ship's stats except the avenger that gets mogh but it's all or nothing. they all get it or none do.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Here's the natural progression of these kind of things...
First, it's claiming "game Balance"-but how long after the protest do we wait for the next one-because Romulans, after all, have Battlecloaks-so, for "balance" the fed players will demand that their Defiant not only have cloak-but, Battle-Cloak. So, shortly after Cryptic bends to demand again...they'll want their shields to stay up like the Romulans do.
While cloaked.
and of course, after the Defiant gets its battle-cloak-with-shields, the next step is to demand it for ALL federation ships...in the name of "balance". After all, the KDF has a whole LINE of cloak-enabled ships, and so do the Romulans...
It happened with Carriers, it's going on now with Battlecruisers. it'll be going on with Raiders (the rumblings have already begun).
It's not about "Balance" it's about "Best".
Misdirection and fear-mongering at it's best. "If we don't stop them here, all Federation ships will have battlecloaking!" You're really that afraid of balance in three ships, you'll make wild accusations such as this? Three ships. Not all of Starfleet, not even all of the escorts.
I'm pretty sure the Devs won't make a buff to sci ships that only help in pvp. They did not with the crusier, carrier, or coming raider buff. Also note. I'm with you about pvp. I do play it but that is a whole other thing all together. What I'm saying is that NO FACTION Starfleet, KDF, or The Republic should have a ship is pure copy of the other. So if you want to buff the ships fine but please could you find another way besides doing that?
I just can't take you seriously anymore, as you're now contradicting yourself. Which is it, keep things unique, or homogenize everything rather than properly balance asymmetrically?
All you seem to care about is the Gal-X. :rolleyes:
This thread is like a car spinning it's wheels in the mud - it's throwing TRIBBLE around but going no where.
If cryptic was going to make money off selling an integrated cloak on a Fed ship - they missed that opportunity by not doing it with the Avenger.
They have provided Fed players a way to get new ships with better cloaks then what the kdf have - it's called a Fed aligned romulan. There you can spend lots more money and get an integrated battlecloak.
Pve is so face roll easy with a 5 fore gun - 5 tac console ship - anyone that needs a cloak to make it should invest time into learning the game.
So that just leaves PvP - and there are perhaps 100 people max that would use an cloaking avenger I'm PvP?? Does not make a lot of sense for cryptic to make any chances. PvP is mostly dominated by lock-box ships - at least the higher end players. And PvP is pretty much on its way out in STO - which is sad because it's probably the only challenging content left I'm the game.
That doesn't work, proposing the same to KDF as to fixing their problems would get you lynched down there instantly, as someone before tried.
Romulan allied does not equal Federation nor KDF. They have helped rewrite balance, but the statement of 'Roll a Romulan then' does nothing to address this matter of cloak imbalance, or any other factional issue; and in the case of the Avenger/Mogh, gross financial value difference.
For the Defiant-the Qin Raptor-they're supposedly equal by Tier and availability, and the cloak behaves the SAME.
Galaxy: Brigadier General variant Negh'var.
as to the Avenger/Mogh comparison...it takes the Mogh about twice as long to recover from subsystem damage, I think they'll find out how much better the Fed version is for handling incoming damage.
I only chose those ship so they could see different ways ships play with cloak, though I forgot to say no free respec tokens too or flanking.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Misdirection and fear-mongering at it's best. "If we don't stop them here, all Federation ships will have battlecloaking!" You're really that afraid of balance in three ships, you'll make wild accusations such as this? Three ships. Not all of Starfleet, not even all of the escorts.
Pure rubbish scare tactics.
Odd part there about the Defiant... Oh, yeah.
I just can't take you seriously anymore, as you're now contradicting yourself. Which is it, keep things unique, or homogenize everything rather than properly balance asymmetrically?
All you seem to care about is the Gal-X. :rolleyes:
That doesn't work, proposing the same to KDF as to fixing their problems would get you lynched down there instantly, as someone before tried.
Romulan allied does not equal Federation nor KDF. They have helped rewrite balance, but the statement of 'Roll a Romulan then' does nothing to address this matter of cloak imbalance, or any other factional issue; and in the case of the Avenger/Mogh, gross financial value difference.
Yes for uniqueness but if the only way to stop this is give in to what you want I would rather see a pure copy then for a faction to have a clear cut better version of a class of that they are not known for building. So no to turning a powerful escort into the best raptor ingame.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Yes for uniqueness but if the only way to stop this is give in to what you want I would rather see a pure copy then for a faction to have a clear cut better version of a class of that they are not known for building. So no to turning a powerful escort into the best raptor ingame.
The Federation makes 'Escort' warships. They make damn good escorts, if the Defiant and Prometheus classes in the show are any indication. One was a critical player in the Dominion War, and the other worried the Romulan Star Empire so much they stole the prototype.
The Defiant is not a Raptor, it is an Escort. As I and others have said many, many, times now before; the issue with the Defiant/Qin matter is not that the Defiant needs nerfing, the Qin needs buffing as well. Even with an innate cloak on the Defiant, if the Qin turned as fast on a proper pivot, they'd make great rivals with an Asymmetrical balance.
You can't nerf the Defiant without devaluing peoples' purchases, nor breaking the internal faction balance of escorts, so stop arguing for it. :P
You can't wave around a bug claiming balance. Ships have had this problem before in the past on release, they get fixed.
As for some comparisons, invalid. B'rel Retro offers a completely different play style to the Defiant Retro.
As stated before; Vananus is similar to the DSSV. Which is a cross faction free vs store ship. Which furthermore has an analog in the Atrox and Vo'Quv. In both these comparisons, the native version is better.
Briefly back to Romulans, they were not added just to give Feds superior battlecloaking and the other claims, put the tin-foil hat away. :rolleyes: I disagree with the allied mechanic myself, I feel they should've been a stand alone to change the faction balance into a triple-feat of asymmetry.
A Romulan captain, is not a Starfleet captain, nor do they fly MVAEs, Avengers, Vestas, or such. The only place Romulans have in this debate is the fact they helped reset the standard. The topic is still the critically inferior status of the Fed cloaking device, and how to make it not so. Not how to make wild excuses for it being okay as TRIBBLE and justifying the devaluing of the money spent on the ships which can cloak.
The Federation makes 'Escort' warships. They make damn good escorts, if the Defiant and Prometheus classes in the show are any indication. One was a critical player in the Dominion War, and the other worried the Romulan Star Empire so much they stole the prototype.
The Defiant is not a Raptor, it is an Escort. As I and others have said many, many, times now before; the issue with the Defiant/Qin matter is not that the Defiant needs nerfing, the Qin needs buffing as well. Even with an innate cloak on the Defiant, if the Qin turned as fast on a proper pivot, they'd make great rivals with an Asymmetrical balance.
You can't nerf the Defiant without devaluing peoples' purchases, nor breaking the internal faction balance of escorts, so stop arguing for it. :P
You can't wave around a bug claiming balance. Ships have had this problem before in the past on release, they get fixed.
The Defiant is an escort that can use a console to cloak
Raptors are escorts that have a built in cloak.
Now please tell me how a Defiant with built in cloak is not the best raptor ingame.
Here is an other way to look at it.
Lets say we give the Fleet Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit the last two cruiser powers. It could now be called a cruiser and a flight deck cruiser. And compared to the closest Starfleet ship the Fleet Star Cruiser with only a 3900 gap of hull between them I would think the Flight Deck Cruiser/Cruiser would be the better pick.
Now lets replace the words Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser with Tactical Escort Retrofit.
Lets turn last two cruiser powers into built in cloak.
And for the last part lets turn Star Cruiser into Qin Raptor.
Odds are I forgot something in this little aesop but I hope the story still got to you. No factions BEST WORK should be made pointless by another faction. So let me say this again.
THE DEFIANT WITH BUILT IN CLOAK WILL BE POUND FOR POUND THE BEST RAPTOR INGAME!
That is the most absurd forced perspective I've seen; as a standard cruiser and a flight deck cruiser are quite different. I fly a flight-deck cruiser at this time, the analog you tied to force is very much more akin to the difference of an Escort, and a Bird-of-Prey. I suspect next you'll try to sell me the fact that I don't have a dog, I have a cat? :P
A Raptor is a counterpart to the Escort in specs and role. Cloak doesn't play into it, because they do the same job without cloak. Light craft with big guns.
Also I like the refusal to acknowledge the 'Fix the Raptor too so they make a good asymmetrical balance' part.
Based on what you said escorts and raptors are the same. Fine. The Defiant is the best escort/raptor/light craft with big gun/whatever else you want to call it and you want to buff it? Also Yay! The Qin gets a turn rate and its pivot issue is fixed. Even with all that do you think comes up to one console slot? That is what this whole monster of a thread is about. One little console spot. So for you to get to use one console slot you need to "help" the KDF...
I give up. I wash my hands of this thread. The levels of hate I feel is close to bring me to the dark side of STO, pvp. I'm willing to talk about giving the Galaxy cloak. I want to see the fed battlecruiser be more Starfleet and less Klingon. But what you are asking for with Tactical Escort Retrofit (TRIBBLE That name and the captain that give it to the ship) is too much even with the "great buffs" that the Qin gets.
So I'm asking every Klingon warrior to fall back. This thread only goal to the show how evil they think the KDF is. Do not fall for it. The Devs have been doing great things for the KDF. Getting the voice of Worf into the game, allowing you start as a KDF officer, ending console trades, and more. Years ago before KDF would have to tooth and nail to hang on to anything but no more. I think there is a Dev watching out for the KDF now and I trust in he/she will not let what OP asking for come to past. So leave this wasteland and go! TOWARD BATTLE, TOWARD GLORY, TOWARD HONOR! Others may try to tie you down but you are finest warriors ever known!
Based on what you said escorts and raptors are the same. Fine. The Defiant is the best escort/raptor/light craft with big gun/whatever else you want to call it and you want to buff it? Also Yay! The Qin gets a turn rate and its pivot issue is fixed. Even with all that do you think comes up to one console slot? That is what this whole monster of a thread is about. One little console spot. So for you to get to use one console slot you need to "help" the KDF...
I give up. I wash my hands of this thread. The levels of hate I feel is close to bring me to the dark side of STO, pvp. I'm willing to talk about giving the Galaxy cloak. I want to see the fed battlecruiser be more Starfleet and less Klingon. But what you are asking for with Tactical Escort Retrofit (TRIBBLE That name and the captain that give it to the ship) is too much even with the "great buffs" that the Qin gets.
So I'm asking every Klingon warrior to fall back. This thread only goal to the show how evil they think the KDF is. Do not fall for it. The Devs have been doing great things for the KDF. Getting the voice of Worf into the game, allowing you start as a KDF officer, ending console trades, and more. Years ago before KDF would have to tooth and nail to hang on to anything but no more. I think there is a Dev watching out for the KDF now and I trust in he/she will not let what OP asking for come to past. So leave this wasteland and go! TOWARD BATTLE, TOWARD GLORY, TOWARD HONOR! Others may try to tie you down but you are finest warriors ever known!
I don't think the KDF is evil, just whiney. Everything you mentioned that Cryptic did for the KDF has been either dismissed as 'not enough' or 'doesn't count', and the goal post pushing continues on. I'll admit that the Mogh-class has resulted in more positive feedback from the KDF than I was expecting, which is a pleasant surprise.
FYI there has always been a dev (or two or three) watching out for the KDF. Just because you never saw them doesn't mean they just popped up all of a sudden out of thin air. It just means they had priorities. Dstahl is one of those devs. He didn't want to discuss a playable Romulan faction unless the KDF had full 1-50 content including a tutorial. And guess what? That's exactly what happened.
Hey Rose, that thing you freaked out over with Klingon Para-roleplay? We call it compromise; which we realized the Qin was pretty bad off as well during this thread, and the Avenger/Mogh thing just shines a light on it as much as the Defiant and Gal-X. So to maintain that thing we call fairness and balance, the motion was made that the Qin would need an improvement alongside any Starfleet cloak fix. Because yes, that one little console means one less Fleet RCS, Armor, or Sci console.
Reflect on how amazing Fleet consoles are compared to the fair we've had for years. Now consider how much it would suck if you had a slot you just couldn't use at all for passive boost consoles like Jimmy can. Because of that one little slot, he can fly circles around you, or has better resistance than you, or whatnot.
The whole basis of this thread is that power-creep has rendered the cloak console something that costs more than it provides by far. And as most of the proposals to upgrade it to a battlecloak or similar are terrible and/or hard to balance, the better option is to make it innate.
Just out of curiousity, in what TV series or movie did the article that allows the federation to perform planetary genocide get shown?
It was from (TOS: "Whom Gods Destroy", "A Taste of Armageddon")
General order 24
Also the battle cloak for Romulan and KDF and been the main reason the F vs K PVP sucks and there is so much rage in Kerrat when players try to de-cloak one-shot you everytime you target a Borg or repair node. If they fail they battle cloak and run. Or if they do decide to fight it out they will cloak and run as soon as they see they are going to loose. 2 factions can do this why not have at least one or two ships on the Fed side have this ability. I know Klinks would cry a river if Feds ever got a battle cloak. They raged everytime the Fed got a universal console from them. I remeber seeing KDF "I quit" threads from them when Feds got the Leech. I can just imagine what would happen if Feds got a battle cloak. Already Feds can run a Romulan toon and play dirty like the KDF has been doing for a long time, so what would it hurt to have a couple of Fed ships with a Battle Cloak?
They still would not be a strong as the Romulans with the Boffs available to them. I just don't see how it would hurt anything besides the Klinks butts.
That is the most absurd forced perspective I've seen; as a standard cruiser and a flight deck cruiser are quite different. I fly a flight-deck cruiser at this time, the analog you tied to force is very much more akin to the difference of an Escort, and a Bird-of-Prey. I suspect next you'll try to sell me the fact that I don't have a dog, I have a cat? :P
A Raptor is a counterpart to the Escort in specs and role. Cloak doesn't play into it, because they do the same job without cloak. Light craft with big guns.
Also I like the refusal to acknowledge the 'Fix the Raptor too so they make a good asymmetrical balance' part.
I have flown raptors and I fought with fleet defiants before LoR.I still fight them with my t'varo even if lately I haven't seen many in PVP.In this moment going against a fleet defiant in a raptor is ineffective at least if not suicidal.Raptor has lower turn rate ,lower shield mod higher inertia than Defiant.If both ships are equally equipped in the end Defiant will kill the raptor because it can easily keep a position behind the raptor.
Once I said that raptor's were built as attractive practice targets to federation escorts because they turn slower,have bigger inertia and because the fun should last more they were given higher hull's than federation escorts.
Raptors were and are more unattractive as Fleet Defiant even as they are now in this moment.Fleet Defiant as it is now is the best raptor in game in my opinion.
If it would be that fleet defiant gets somewhere in future a innate cloak then raptors should be made smaller in size (pivot point has a importance too beside other stats and it is affected by size) have incresead shield mod,increased inertia,equally turn rate with Defiant and given the fifth tactical console just to balance the two classes.
"There already is a Borg faction, its called the Federation. They assimilate everyone else's technology and remove any biological or technical distinctiveness and add it to their own."
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
Hey Rose, that thing you freaked out over with Klingon Para-roleplay? We call it compromise; which we realized the Qin was pretty bad off as well during this thread, and the Avenger/Mogh thing just shines a light on it as much as the Defiant and Gal-X. So to maintain that thing we call fairness and balance, the motion was made that the Qin would need an improvement alongside any Starfleet cloak fix. Because yes, that one little console means one less Fleet RCS, Armor, or Sci console.
Reflect on how amazing Fleet consoles are compared to the fair we've had for years. Now consider how much it would suck if you had a slot you just couldn't use at all for passive boost consoles like Jimmy can. Because of that one little slot, he can fly circles around you, or has better resistance than you, or whatnot.
The whole basis of this thread is that power-creep has rendered the cloak console something that costs more than it provides by far. And as most of the proposals to upgrade it to a battlecloak or similar are terrible and/or hard to balance, the better option is to make it innate.
I'm sorry. The lack of food, cool air, and sleep could have made me a little crazy.
Here is my counters to your compromises not saying all of these should happen, just tossing out ideas and seeing what sticks.
1. The Tactical Escort Retrofit gets its name changed to the Federation Raptor (This one is kind of a joke)
2.The Tactical Escort Retrofit (and maybe the other ships) gets built in Federation Cloak. What does that mean? No +15% Damage Bonus for 5 sec and no Romulans buffing that bonus. Put the console on your ship to regain those bonuses. This way the raptor ship classes and the escort ship classes does not get even more muddied then before. To help counter the lost of that Federation cloak is stronger then Klingons' (Better to watch pre-warp races and do the things that Starfleet would do?). This choice I think should be made to all Starfleet ships that can cloak.
3. The cloak loses 5% (have a Dev play with those numbers) of it decloak damage bonus. Use the cloak or Romulans to get it back.
These are a few of my ideas. Now what do you think?
As the game progresses and new things are added, sadly we see old ones fall to the wayside. The Universal Console Cloaking Device is probably the most obvious and painful example of this issue. It?s become nearly impossible to use in any efficient manner outside of onetime use ambushes.
That being said, I don?t think it?s unsalvageable. It really wouldn?t take much to update this into an effective tool.
Only three ships are able to equip it, and all three are basically pure warships. So, shouldn?t this component reflect that fact?
An easy way to boost its value would be to change it from a Universal Console to a Device, you know, reflecting the name itself. There are already a few non-consumable devices in the game, one that even functions very similarly to a Cloaking Device. This would free up valuable console space on the few ships than can use it. Ships that don?t have much spare room in the Console department if you want to play competitively.
A second reasonable option is what people have been asking for quite some time. To update the Universal Console Cloaking Device to a Battle Cloak. Again, only three ships can use this, so its not exactly game breaking, especially if it remains as a Console. It adds a layer of versatility but still comes at a cost.
The third option would be to make a Fleet grade version that IS a Battle Cloak. This would give further incentive for people to join and build up a Fleet to its final tier levels. It would also be realistic when you consider how technology advances by leaps and bounds during war, standard grade equipment is modified and improved over time.
I suppose a fourth option could be to have a Reputation Project that allows you to refit a Universal Console Cloaking Device to a Universal Console Battle Cloaking Device. It would have to be Tier 5 of course, and require a Universal Console Cloaking Device be used as a token of payment. That way Cryptic would still get their money as people have to buy a Galaxy X or Defiant Retrofit to get it.
The third and fourth options would be most promising I believe, especially with the Romulan?s having entered into things. They have always been the most technologically advanced faction (outside the Borg or similar races) and Cloaking has always been there specialty, so perhaps something through the Embassy if not Reputation?
Anyone have thoughts or ideas on this matter?
Ignoring all the most recent comments (not out of ignorance, I'm just on a phone and scrolling is hard!) and focusing directly on the OP...
NO.
Inbuilt Cloaking Devices are pretty much what has kept the KDF and Romulan factions alive for all this time.
The Federation have enough advantages as it is, they do not need to steal the Cloaking advantage away from the other two factions. Federation Cloaks are "canon" as they are, and should not buffed, changed, or improved in any way.
Based on what you said escorts and raptors are the same. Fine. The Defiant is the best escort/raptor/light craft with big gun/whatever else you want to call it and you want to buff it? Also Yay! The Qin gets a turn rate and its pivot issue is fixed. Even with all that do you think comes up to one console slot? That is what this whole monster of a thread is about. One little console spot. So for you to get to use one console slot you need to "help" the KDF...
I give up. I wash my hands of this thread. The levels of hate I feel is close to bring me to the dark side of STO, pvp. I'm willing to talk about giving the Galaxy cloak. I want to see the fed battlecruiser be more Starfleet and less Klingon. But what you are asking for with Tactical Escort Retrofit (TRIBBLE That name and the captain that give it to the ship) is too much even with the "great buffs" that the Qin gets.
So I'm asking every Klingon warrior to fall back. This thread only goal to the show how evil they think the KDF is. Do not fall for it. The Devs have been doing great things for the KDF. Getting the voice of Worf into the game, allowing you start as a KDF officer, ending console trades, and more. Years ago before KDF would have to tooth and nail to hang on to anything but no more. I think there is a Dev watching out for the KDF now and I trust in he/she will not let what OP asking for come to past. So leave this wasteland and go! TOWARD BATTLE, TOWARD GLORY, TOWARD HONOR! Others may try to tie you down but you are finest warriors ever known!
I don't think KDF are evil, I think they are unusual however. Every time someone brings up this issue of the Federation Cloaking device they get angry and continue to cite that it will ruin PvP. This is despite the fact that only a *very* small number of people who WANT the Federation Cloaking Device tuned are even CONSIDERING PvP.
Let me put it this way.
Most Federation Players who want the Cloaking Device made inherent, don't even know PvP exists in this game. They are thinking 'Man, it sure would be nice to get that cloaked Alpha strike to a damage buff when I'm credit/dilithium/mark farming the PvEs'.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Going in cloaked in most of the Borg STF's is a great way to be engaged without your shields up. ask anyone who's tried it in Hive. ONeshotted at 20Km while cloaked a few times (because Borg seem to prioritize cloakers...) SHOULD cure that misconception.
I already do this all the time, no trouble at all. Cloak, charge, hit all buffs, decloak and fire. I spam it with Romulans thanks to Battle Cloak but I use it all the time on my KDF toons to. Its not rocket science.
In addition, Hive is a waste of time, you can do two Borg Elite STFs in the time it takes to do that monster, and you get more rewards to boot.
"Why all the sales"?
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
Comments
You honestly believe that if they were to re-integrate the cloaking device *every* Federation player would instantly flip over to using the Defiant? I'm not talking about Battle Cloak, just normal run of the mill cloak, to do Alpha strikes on PvE, you know, the aspect of this game Federation players actually play
Every time someone brings up integrating cloak on any thread, the KDF players cry unfair for PvP balance. One adjustment to three ships isn't going to change the problem PvP has in this game, that being the players themselves.
That's why I don't play and never will play PvP. I have friends that are pretty good, but I get sick and tired of adding more people to my ignore list after every match.
So again I offer this, make these three ships have integrated cloaking for every part of the game outside PvP, where it would require a console. That way the vast majority of Federation players are happy because they get a nice buff, and KDF players are happy because said buff doesn't effect them in any way.
Cryptic makes money because the ships are more viable, Fed players enjoy PvE and PvP remains as it has since the game came out. Everybody wins, nobody losses.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
thats for damn sure.
R.I.P
So the faster version I what I said last time.
Galaxy: Suuuurrrreeee....if they can't find a better way of buffing the bird.
Fed Battlecrusier: Make it more Starfleet then KDF
Defiant: Move one of those tac consoles over to eng sure. Turn it into a pure copy of Qin.
Anything else?
For you its not, but from what I can tell KDF players only care about how this would affect PvP. I figure if we make it so things remain exactly as they are in PvP now, they wont mind or care in any way.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
If cryptic was going to make money off selling an integrated cloak on a Fed ship - they missed that opportunity by not doing it with the Avenger.
They have provided Fed players a way to get new ships with better cloaks then what the kdf have - it's called a Fed aligned romulan. There you can spend lots more money and get an integrated battlecloak.
Pve is so face roll easy with a 5 fore gun - 5 tac console ship - anyone that needs a cloak to make it should invest time into learning the game.
So that just leaves PvP - and there are perhaps 100 people max that would use an cloaking avenger I'm PvP?? Does not make a lot of sense for cryptic to make any chances. PvP is mostly dominated by lock-box ships - at least the higher end players. And PvP is pretty much on its way out in STO - which is sad because it's probably the only challenging content left I'm the game.
for the Defiant. my good friend the Hegh'ta
for the Galaxy, the qin
for the avenger, not the mogh but Negh'Var. after all this for understanding not balance.
once the month is up everything is switched back. then they get to vote, no cloak. or cloak with same klingon ship's stats except the avenger that gets mogh but it's all or nothing. they all get it or none do.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Misdirection and fear-mongering at it's best. "If we don't stop them here, all Federation ships will have battlecloaking!" You're really that afraid of balance in three ships, you'll make wild accusations such as this? Three ships. Not all of Starfleet, not even all of the escorts.
Pure rubbish scare tactics.
Odd part there about the Defiant... Oh, yeah.
I just can't take you seriously anymore, as you're now contradicting yourself. Which is it, keep things unique, or homogenize everything rather than properly balance asymmetrically?
All you seem to care about is the Gal-X. :rolleyes:
That doesn't work, proposing the same to KDF as to fixing their problems would get you lynched down there instantly, as someone before tried.
Romulan allied does not equal Federation nor KDF. They have helped rewrite balance, but the statement of 'Roll a Romulan then' does nothing to address this matter of cloak imbalance, or any other factional issue; and in the case of the Avenger/Mogh, gross financial value difference.
I only chose those ship so they could see different ways ships play with cloak, though I forgot to say no free respec tokens too or flanking.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
Lets call Avenger and Mogh balanced .
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
The Federation makes 'Escort' warships. They make damn good escorts, if the Defiant and Prometheus classes in the show are any indication. One was a critical player in the Dominion War, and the other worried the Romulan Star Empire so much they stole the prototype.
The Defiant is not a Raptor, it is an Escort. As I and others have said many, many, times now before; the issue with the Defiant/Qin matter is not that the Defiant needs nerfing, the Qin needs buffing as well. Even with an innate cloak on the Defiant, if the Qin turned as fast on a proper pivot, they'd make great rivals with an Asymmetrical balance.
You can't nerf the Defiant without devaluing peoples' purchases, nor breaking the internal faction balance of escorts, so stop arguing for it. :P
You can't wave around a bug claiming balance. Ships have had this problem before in the past on release, they get fixed.
To the Avenger/Mogh...
As for some comparisons, invalid. B'rel Retro offers a completely different play style to the Defiant Retro.
As stated before; Vananus is similar to the DSSV. Which is a cross faction free vs store ship. Which furthermore has an analog in the Atrox and Vo'Quv. In both these comparisons, the native version is better.
Briefly back to Romulans, they were not added just to give Feds superior battlecloaking and the other claims, put the tin-foil hat away. :rolleyes: I disagree with the allied mechanic myself, I feel they should've been a stand alone to change the faction balance into a triple-feat of asymmetry.
A Romulan captain, is not a Starfleet captain, nor do they fly MVAEs, Avengers, Vestas, or such. The only place Romulans have in this debate is the fact they helped reset the standard. The topic is still the critically inferior status of the Fed cloaking device, and how to make it not so. Not how to make wild excuses for it being okay as TRIBBLE and justifying the devaluing of the money spent on the ships which can cloak.
Raptors are escorts that have a built in cloak.
Now please tell me how a Defiant with built in cloak is not the best raptor ingame.
Here is an other way to look at it.
Lets say we give the Fleet Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser Retrofit the last two cruiser powers. It could now be called a cruiser and a flight deck cruiser. And compared to the closest Starfleet ship the Fleet Star Cruiser with only a 3900 gap of hull between them I would think the Flight Deck Cruiser/Cruiser would be the better pick.
Now lets replace the words Corsair Flight Deck Cruiser with Tactical Escort Retrofit.
Lets turn last two cruiser powers into built in cloak.
And for the last part lets turn Star Cruiser into Qin Raptor.
Odds are I forgot something in this little aesop but I hope the story still got to you. No factions BEST WORK should be made pointless by another faction. So let me say this again.
THE DEFIANT WITH BUILT IN CLOAK WILL BE POUND FOR POUND THE BEST RAPTOR INGAME!
A Raptor is a counterpart to the Escort in specs and role. Cloak doesn't play into it, because they do the same job without cloak. Light craft with big guns.
Also I like the refusal to acknowledge the 'Fix the Raptor too so they make a good asymmetrical balance' part.
Based on what you said escorts and raptors are the same. Fine. The Defiant is the best escort/raptor/light craft with big gun/whatever else you want to call it and you want to buff it? Also Yay! The Qin gets a turn rate and its pivot issue is fixed. Even with all that do you think comes up to one console slot? That is what this whole monster of a thread is about. One little console spot. So for you to get to use one console slot you need to "help" the KDF...
I give up. I wash my hands of this thread. The levels of hate I feel is close to bring me to the dark side of STO, pvp. I'm willing to talk about giving the Galaxy cloak. I want to see the fed battlecruiser be more Starfleet and less Klingon. But what you are asking for with Tactical Escort Retrofit (TRIBBLE That name and the captain that give it to the ship) is too much even with the "great buffs" that the Qin gets.
So I'm asking every Klingon warrior to fall back. This thread only goal to the show how evil they think the KDF is. Do not fall for it. The Devs have been doing great things for the KDF. Getting the voice of Worf into the game, allowing you start as a KDF officer, ending console trades, and more. Years ago before KDF would have to tooth and nail to hang on to anything but no more. I think there is a Dev watching out for the KDF now and I trust in he/she will not let what OP asking for come to past. So leave this wasteland and go! TOWARD BATTLE, TOWARD GLORY, TOWARD HONOR! Others may try to tie you down but you are finest warriors ever known!
I don't think the KDF is evil, just whiney. Everything you mentioned that Cryptic did for the KDF has been either dismissed as 'not enough' or 'doesn't count', and the goal post pushing continues on. I'll admit that the Mogh-class has resulted in more positive feedback from the KDF than I was expecting, which is a pleasant surprise.
FYI there has always been a dev (or two or three) watching out for the KDF. Just because you never saw them doesn't mean they just popped up all of a sudden out of thin air. It just means they had priorities. Dstahl is one of those devs. He didn't want to discuss a playable Romulan faction unless the KDF had full 1-50 content including a tutorial. And guess what? That's exactly what happened.
Reflect on how amazing Fleet consoles are compared to the fair we've had for years. Now consider how much it would suck if you had a slot you just couldn't use at all for passive boost consoles like Jimmy can. Because of that one little slot, he can fly circles around you, or has better resistance than you, or whatnot.
The whole basis of this thread is that power-creep has rendered the cloak console something that costs more than it provides by far. And as most of the proposals to upgrade it to a battlecloak or similar are terrible and/or hard to balance, the better option is to make it innate.
It was from (TOS: "Whom Gods Destroy", "A Taste of Armageddon")
General order 24
Also the battle cloak for Romulan and KDF and been the main reason the F vs K PVP sucks and there is so much rage in Kerrat when players try to de-cloak one-shot you everytime you target a Borg or repair node. If they fail they battle cloak and run. Or if they do decide to fight it out they will cloak and run as soon as they see they are going to loose. 2 factions can do this why not have at least one or two ships on the Fed side have this ability. I know Klinks would cry a river if Feds ever got a battle cloak. They raged everytime the Fed got a universal console from them. I remeber seeing KDF "I quit" threads from them when Feds got the Leech. I can just imagine what would happen if Feds got a battle cloak. Already Feds can run a Romulan toon and play dirty like the KDF has been doing for a long time, so what would it hurt to have a couple of Fed ships with a Battle Cloak?
They still would not be a strong as the Romulans with the Boffs available to them. I just don't see how it would hurt anything besides the Klinks butts.
I have flown raptors and I fought with fleet defiants before LoR.I still fight them with my t'varo even if lately I haven't seen many in PVP.In this moment going against a fleet defiant in a raptor is ineffective at least if not suicidal.Raptor has lower turn rate ,lower shield mod higher inertia than Defiant.If both ships are equally equipped in the end Defiant will kill the raptor because it can easily keep a position behind the raptor.
Once I said that raptor's were built as attractive practice targets to federation escorts because they turn slower,have bigger inertia and because the fun should last more they were given higher hull's than federation escorts.
Raptors were and are more unattractive as Fleet Defiant even as they are now in this moment.Fleet Defiant as it is now is the best raptor in game in my opinion.
If it would be that fleet defiant gets somewhere in future a innate cloak then raptors should be made smaller in size (pivot point has a importance too beside other stats and it is affected by size) have incresead shield mod,increased inertia,equally turn rate with Defiant and given the fifth tactical console just to balance the two classes.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
I'm sorry. The lack of food, cool air, and sleep could have made me a little crazy.
Here is my counters to your compromises not saying all of these should happen, just tossing out ideas and seeing what sticks.
1. The Tactical Escort Retrofit gets its name changed to the Federation Raptor (This one is kind of a joke)
2.The Tactical Escort Retrofit (and maybe the other ships) gets built in Federation Cloak. What does that mean? No +15% Damage Bonus for 5 sec and no Romulans buffing that bonus. Put the console on your ship to regain those bonuses. This way the raptor ship classes and the escort ship classes does not get even more muddied then before. To help counter the lost of that Federation cloak is stronger then Klingons' (Better to watch pre-warp races and do the things that Starfleet would do?). This choice I think should be made to all Starfleet ships that can cloak.
3. The cloak loses 5% (have a Dev play with those numbers) of it decloak damage bonus. Use the cloak or Romulans to get it back.
These are a few of my ideas. Now what do you think?
Ignoring all the most recent comments (not out of ignorance, I'm just on a phone and scrolling is hard!) and focusing directly on the OP...
NO.
Inbuilt Cloaking Devices are pretty much what has kept the KDF and Romulan factions alive for all this time.
The Federation have enough advantages as it is, they do not need to steal the Cloaking advantage away from the other two factions. Federation Cloaks are "canon" as they are, and should not buffed, changed, or improved in any way.
I don't think KDF are evil, I think they are unusual however. Every time someone brings up this issue of the Federation Cloaking device they get angry and continue to cite that it will ruin PvP. This is despite the fact that only a *very* small number of people who WANT the Federation Cloaking Device tuned are even CONSIDERING PvP.
Let me put it this way.
Most Federation Players who want the Cloaking Device made inherent, don't even know PvP exists in this game. They are thinking 'Man, it sure would be nice to get that cloaked Alpha strike to a damage buff when I'm credit/dilithium/mark farming the PvEs'.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
An escort with built in cloak is a raptor. I just need one person to say this. Please
I already do this all the time, no trouble at all. Cloak, charge, hit all buffs, decloak and fire. I spam it with Romulans thanks to Battle Cloak but I use it all the time on my KDF toons to. Its not rocket science.
In addition, Hive is a waste of time, you can do two Borg Elite STFs in the time it takes to do that monster, and you get more rewards to boot.
And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
-jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'