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Federation Cloaking Device Refit

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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    cloaking only has real value in pvp.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • earlnyghthawkearlnyghthawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Ignoring all the most recent comments (not out of ignorance, I'm just on a phone and scrolling is hard!) and focusing directly on the OP...

    NO.

    Inbuilt Cloaking Devices are pretty much what has kept the KDF and Romulan factions alive for all this time.

    The Federation have enough advantages as it is, they do not need to steal the Cloaking advantage away from the other two factions. Federation Cloaks are "canon" as they are, and should not buffed, changed, or improved in any way.

    In response to that, then one could say that the Klin BoP's are fine the way they are, as well. They already have advantages.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
    Temperance Brennan, "A building"
  • earlnyghthawkearlnyghthawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    rgzarcher wrote: »
    I already do this all the time, no trouble at all. Cloak, charge, hit all buffs, decloak and fire. I spam it with Romulans thanks to Battle Cloak but I use it all the time on my KDF toons to. Its not rocket science.

    In addition, Hive is a waste of time, you can do two Borg Elite STFs in the time it takes to do that monster, and you get more rewards to boot.

    Not to mention, the chances of those two STF's getting borked by some numbnut is far less, than in Hive.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
    Temperance Brennan, "A building"
  • earlnyghthawkearlnyghthawk Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Huh, funny, they obviously don't know...

    Going in cloaked in most of the Borg STF's is a great way to be engaged without your shields up. ask anyone who's tried it in Hive. ONeshotted at 20Km while cloaked a few times (because Borg seem to prioritize cloakers...) SHOULD cure that misconception.

    Not really, except in Hive. The others, it's a great way to break lock on you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
    Temperance Brennan, "A building"
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  • terongrayterongray Member Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    3. The cloak loses 5% (have a Dev play with those numbers) of it decloak damage bonus. Use the cloak or Romulans to get it back.

    That sounds fine within the scope of balance we've been discussing.

    dova25 wrote: »
    I have flown raptors and I fought with fleet defiants before LoR.I still fight them with my t'varo even if lately I haven't seen many in PVP.In this moment going against a fleet defiant in a raptor is ineffective at least if not suicidal.Raptor has lower turn rate ,lower shield mod higher inertia than Defiant.If both ships are equally equipped in the end Defiant will kill the raptor because it can easily keep a position behind the raptor.
    Once I said that raptor's were built as attractive practice targets to federation escorts because they turn slower,have bigger inertia and because the fun should last more they were given higher hull's than federation escorts.

    Raptors were and are more unattractive as Fleet Defiant even as they are now in this moment.Fleet Defiant as it is now is the best raptor in game in my opinion.

    If it would be that fleet defiant gets somewhere in future a innate cloak then raptors should be made smaller in size (pivot point has a importance too beside other stats and it is affected by size) have incresead shield mod,increased inertia,equally turn rate with Defiant and given the fifth tactical console just to balance the two classes.

    The suggestion to improve the Raptor as well has been made. Though a note on the console discrepancy at fleet level, even now. The extra engineering console is quite powerful; that is one more RCS console you can run over it, even if the Defiant gets innate cloak. With a Fleet Mk XII one, that means the Qin will be able to out-turn the Defiant. More tactical consoles don't help when you can't line up your shot effectively.

    Ignoring all the most recent comments (not out of ignorance, I'm just on a phone and scrolling is hard!) and focusing directly on the OP...

    NO.

    Inbuilt Cloaking Devices are pretty much what has kept the KDF and Romulan factions alive for all this time.

    The Federation have enough advantages as it is, they do not need to steal the Cloaking advantage away from the other two factions. Federation Cloaks are "canon" as they are, and should not buffed, changed, or improved in any way.

    As addressed before, these three ships can cloak, and only these three, and the way they do so requires more cost that it returns with the powercreep. It isn't a matter of 'canon' because otherwise every cloak would be a battle cloak; it is a game mechanics balance issue.

    Asymmetrical balance in ship designs like BoPs and Warp-core warbirds, and the play-styles that they entail are what keeps the other groups interesting.
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Huh, funny, they obviously don't know...

    Going in cloaked in most of the Borg STF's is a great way to be engaged without your shields up. ask anyone who's tried it in Hive. ONeshotted at 20Km while cloaked a few times (because Borg seem to prioritize cloakers...) SHOULD cure that misconception.

    I never have been blown up while cloaked in Borg STFs. Maybe it's dumb-luck for or against one of us.
  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    If you need a cloak in Infected, Khitomer, or Cure, your problem is a lot deeper than not having one.

    I run a BoP in those, don't even bother cloaking, it's a waste of time in those missions. they're doable in virtually anything, cloaking or not. They're almost zero-fail missions, even on so-called "elite".

    Hive's the only one that presents anything resembling a challenge-and it's been nerfed considerably since introduction.

    For speedruns in the non-Hive STF's, you don't need anything more than a consistent escort build-running MkVIII gear (white) is enough. IOW you can run them on "Elite" in a stock assault cruiser on a team of stock L40 ships and still make optionals with time to spare if everyone knows the pattern.

    Need? No, not by a long shot, but it makes things go faster. When you spend 6 hours a day doing STFs, you look for ways to make it go faster.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • terongrayterongray Member Posts: 272 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    if you're spending six hours a day on the same STF's, you should have it right by now.

    Personal attacks, how KDF. :rolleyes:

    It's not a matter of necessity, it's the matter of having the option without gimping yourself.
  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    if you're spending six hours a day on the same STF's, you should have it right by now.

    Its the fastest easy method of free Dilithium. And when your fleet has just started a NEW fleet for expansion, you need all the dilithium you can get.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    so...you're running a Tac, in an aux-to-batt FAW boat, right? Because that's a hell of a lot faster than running BO3 decloak-vaper.

    Tac Jem Hadar Attack Ship, DHCs and Turrets, but I'd much rather use my Galaxy X or my Fleet Defiant.

    Or if I want to just make it a choir I could use my Reman Scimitar toon. But I'd rather not let farming become as boring as can be, I like variety, and as I look at the Defiant and Galaxy X gathering dust in my hanger, opposed to my Bortosq'ue for my KDF toon I cant help but wonder.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    If you're not flying it, it's probably because you don't like flying it, but feel you SHOULD like it-usually born of a sense of misplaced obligation that comes from being a Fan of the original IP.

    Personally, I think you'd be happier doing your grinding in the Defiant over the bugship particularly because they are, for the purpose, very nearly identical, and the Defiant (without wasting the console slot on a cloak you don't need) is quite sufficient to carry out the task-the only reason to run the bug, is PvP.

    as to the Gal-X...well...there IS a reason people call it the "Failaxy".

    Defiant with built in cloak COULD do more damage than Bug Ship in bursts, as is, they are near identical outside Polaron weapons.

    Galaxy X can be quite dangerous when spec correctly with good gear, in PvE at least, which is all anyone cares about lol
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    dunno, without cloak entirely, it does pretty well, it's only when you equip the useless console that your performance degrades-and there are quite a few other useless consoles out there that also fit that description.

    Which is the point of this thread lol
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    the point being, the Defiant's a very effective ship without a cloak. in both PvE and PvP.

    same can't be said for the Qin (turn radius, inertia, console layout and shielding deficiencies).

    taking the cloak is basically making a choice to sacrifice effectiveness for a gimmick.

    depending where you put it, you sacrifice firepower for a gimmick, or survivability for a gimmick-the gimmick doesn't give a sustained bonus that the tac console does, or sustained survivability boost that a regular Engineering or Sci console would.

    It's JUST a gimmick.

    anything you might actually use it for, can be done using cheap Bridge officer abilities with a shorter cooldown, including breaking locks, positioning, or buffing damage.

    one decloak alpha and then you have to flee out of engagement, wait out the cooldown, then re-cloak vs. a standard alpha buffed with a copy of APO, EPtW, etc. that hits cooldown sooner than your cloaking device would?

    at the same time, EPtS gives you better chances of surviving incoming and doesn't expose bare hull to incoming torpedoes and mines. (cloaking does this if you're not Romulan).

    There is a reason Raptors don't dominate in KDF play, while Escorts DO in Federation play. put simply, Raptors suck rocks compared to Federation Escorts-the integral cloak doesn't help the class after the first strike-the entire range of Raptors sacrifices compared to Fed ships as a balance for that first strike-but, once it's done, usually the Raptor is done shortly after-this defect's driven a LOT of the popularity of the Bird of Prey classes and the Battlecruiser classes among KDF, and is a major factor in how and why non-Klingon ships tend to predominate in roles the Raptor's supposed to be built to fill.

    by integrating the Cloak into the Defiant without sacrificing a slot, you basically end up with a cloaking Federation Escort, a ship that's already superior to it's KDF counterpart, now being superior AND cloaking.

    Something I wonder about. Why is it no Federation players complain about the KDF having *vastly* better Cruisers or Carriers, ever, yet KDF players are so affronted by Federation having a ship of their own, in a different class, that's better?

    Seriously, for a Federation player to get anything that's above mid grade in being useful, we have to pay money. For FREE KDF get Raptor and the Vor'cha line. Federation don't have anything close to those in terms of ability. And DONT say 'Defiant is just as good as a Raptor' because that costs $20 to $25.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    um...mostly because the feds already have a range of ships that are better, including Cruisers, Carriers, Escorts, Science Ships... Every single range. When Cryptic decided to give the Federation a Battlecruiser, they weren't given a copy of the Vor'cha, they were given a significantly upgraded model two weeks after announcing that the KDF's ship was delayed indefinitely to devote resources to the Voth.

    when the Fed did NOT have carriers, there was thread after thread after thread about how unfair it was that they didn't have them, often ignoring persistent problems Carrier owners KDF side had been reporting since release.

    Those problems weren't fixed until Fed players started having those problems on their new Atrox class carriers.

    Feds still chant enviously in these very forums for more carrier types, including flight deck cruisers-and I'm not opposed to that-but only if they're not superior vessels-but Cryptic doesn't release shifts like that that aren't.

    When Cryptic moves something from KDF to Fed, it's usually upgraded in the process-shifts going the otherway go entirely the other way-downgrades or moves to a form that is entirely inappropriate to the faction and/or class (Witness the Bort for a prime example)

    The Mogh/Avenger situation is probably the first time the ship wasn't intentionally gimped at the gate for KDF, but the gimping was un-intentional instead and rooted in a bug having to do with how Crew size impacts damage taken vs. how crew gets restored.

    but then, Battlecruisers STARTED on KDF side in the first place. and due to timing/deadlines and the PR mess they created for themselves, they didn't have time to really futz with the stats.

    Again I point to the fact that I said, anything good the Federation has, requires spending money. Baseline ships, KDF are quite a bit better. Remember there are more free to play members out there than people who spend Zen on anything. Remember how I said about half the ships around Earth are either Odyssey or Sovereign class? That's how you can tell people that spend money from those who don't spend money. And there are a lot more Sovereign Class players than Odyssey.

    Yes, Federation have better ships than KDF, so long as you are willing to spend about a month farming dilithium for Zen, or spending real money on Zen. But, if you are willing to spend money, why play anthing other than a Scimitar?

    Edit: Also I cant help but notice you bring up Science ships again, which have already been established as useless outside of PvP. I'm taking about general game play here, NOT PvP.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    rgzarcher wrote: »
    Something I wonder about. Why is it no Federation players complain about the KDF having *vastly* better Cruisers or Carriers, ever, yet KDF players are so affronted by Federation having a ship of their own, in a different class, that's better?

    Seriously, for a Federation player to get anything that's above mid grade in being useful, we have to pay money. For FREE KDF get Raptor and the Vor'cha line. Federation don't have anything close to those in terms of ability. And DONT say 'Defiant is just as good as a Raptor' because that costs $20 to $25.

    Plenty of fed players have complained about the KDF battle cruisers and carriers being percived by them as better.
    TRIBBLE bells it still.going on now in threads on the forums.
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Problem being in part, that for "General gameplay" anyone that isn't a Tac, and anything that isn't a FAW Cruiser or Escort is effectively as useless as a science ship in 'endgame' content-it's only in PvP that Sci has a purpose, Healers have a purpose, or debuffing has a purpose. Even a carrier is a mixed blessing that often fails to deliver in PvE.

    and guess which faction has the best FAW cruisers and Escorts?

    Romulans, hands down thanks to Battle Cloak. Followed by KDF having access to good consoles easy.

    Federation ships are only ruling supreme if you are willing to follow a youtube video for instructions on exactly what consoles to use and what skills points to use.

    Thankfully 95% of the player base for STO aren't power gamers that are willing to fight over a 3% different in any given stat, or kick you from a team the minute they see you aren't running XII Purple Fleet gear.

    General game play, average person who wants to sit down and play a game for fun, and doesn't care about the math being the game.

    Honestly it wasn't until I looked at the threads I even noticed a difference between the Qin and Defiant, and even after looking at the threads, I don't see a difference large enough to warrant so much ire and spite in the threads. If people need a reason for Federation to have better ships, chalk it up to being better at building them. That's the nice thing the Federation has enjoyed for the last hundred or so years, a rich and diverse group of people working together to build the very best.

    Klingons, they don't particularly care about that kind of thing. I wouldn't be surprised if half the people who play this game would do a better job at building something than the KDF's top 'scientist'.

    When I look at the ships in this game, when I think about them, I go from the standpoint of someone that's not in a fleet, who doesn't have access to a lot of Zen, and has to use what they can get. THAT is what I call 'general gameplay' and the 'average player'.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    *sigh* I'm really wishing I hadn't bothered creating this thread, because its only served to remind me of why I abandoned PvP after my first day playing it. Its not worth it. Too many people that use Excel Spreadsheets to prove decimal point differences in stats between ships and will fight tooth claw and nail over the absolute most trivial of things.

    So, as I did with Player vs Player, I leave the forums, not worth the headache. I'm not a combative person, I'm not a confrontational person. I'm just a guy that enjoys the game, and tries to avoid the people in it so he can continue to enjoy the game.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
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  • rgzarcherrgzarcher Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Um WRONG.

    Romulans don't have Cruisers OR Escorts. Those're Warbirds, and the power creep inherent to them was a conscious decision by Cryptic. NOBODY is balanced against them.

    But be of good cheer-you can run Fed/Rom and you'll be doing better than KDF/Rom.

    Why do people keep saying that? What does the Federation Rom get that KDF Rom's don't? Federation ships have garbage consoles, and its not like a Fed Rom can get anything above a tier 3 ship from Fed or KDF.

    That aside, I'll take KDF ships over MOST Fed ships any time. They're just so much more powerful. I can take my Bortosq and go toe to toe with a Cube no problem, even a tac Cube if I'm careful and use the Gorn ship's Shield console with right timing. There isn't a single Federation ship out there you get from normal gameplay that can hold a candle to KDF ships.

    Of course this is moot if you are part of the 5% that actually care about PvP, or who are willing to spend real money. But pure free play? KDF ships kick Fed to the curb.

    Edit: bah, look at me getting suckered into this again. no, no more forum posts, not worth it. Though on the one hand I have seem to have discovered where every person who actually does care about PvP gathers.
    "Why all the sales"?

    And a merry freaking Christmas to you too, Ebenezer.
    -jonsills, 'Cryptic Why the sales..instead of Fixing XP leveling and this game?'
  • nightkennightken Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    rgzarcher wrote: »
    Something I wonder about. Why is it no Federation players complain about the KDF having *vastly* better Cruisers or Carriers, ever, yet KDF players are so affronted by Federation having a ship of their own, in a different class, that's better?

    Seriously, for a Federation player to get anything that's above mid grade in being useful, we have to pay money. For FREE KDF get Raptor and the Vor'cha line. Federation don't have anything close to those in terms of ability. And DONT say 'Defiant is just as good as a Raptor' because that costs $20 to $25.

    can I have what your smoking I got a few things I'd like to forget too.

    like the fact kdf gets anything useful at all... or keeps anything feds whine... at ths point I would be surpised if there is a thread saying kdf shouldn't exist because they may out pew pew feds.

    on a totally unrelated note can someone please tell me if there is a gif of teen picard with " I want my father" "replaced with I want a cloak?" and if it does give my a link so I can get a copy.

    if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,320 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    rgzarcher wrote: »
    Why do people keep saying that? What does the Federation Rom get that KDF Rom's don't? Federation ships have garbage consoles, and its not like a Fed Rom can get anything above a tier 3 ship from Fed or KDF.

    That aside, I'll take KDF ships over MOST Fed ships any time. They're just so much more powerful. I can take my Bortosq and go toe to toe with a Cube no problem, even a tac Cube if I'm careful and use the Gorn ship's Shield console with right timing. There isn't a single Federation ship out there you get from normal gameplay that can hold a candle to KDF ships.

    Of course this is moot if you are part of the 5% that actually care about PvP, or who are willing to spend real money. But pure free play? KDF ships kick Fed to the curb.

    Um as a fed player ALL of the fed end game ships can go toe to toe against a TAC cube solo and come out on top. In addition feds have a larger player base so lower que times and there's the additional benefit of being in the federation of course. Also more high tier fleets. And many feds are willing to spend real money to get a c store ship or grind dil to get one. Sure some KDF ships are better than fed equivalents but come on. Feds can also get good kdf console one the exchange for free.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
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