the closest thing is the lobi ship temporal destroyer...
True, but Romulans can't access either Temporal Destroyer becuase they are T5 ally ships. Until there is a Romulan version made, if there even is one being planned.
It would be better to just have an alternate version of one of the existing fleet ships or a new fleet ship.
True, but Romulans can't access either Temporal Destroyer becuase they are T5 ally ships. Until there is a Romulan version made, if there even is one being planned.
It would be better to just have an alternate version of one of the existing fleet ships or a new fleet ship.
I'm pretty sure it was stated officially that there will be temporal ships for Romulans, just the "When" is in doubt.
I would prefer the Mogai's layout to stay as it is now. You devs decided that the Mogai would be a heavy destroyer in this game and considering other 'destroyers' you have released so far these were always a mix of a cruiser and an escort, not a tac/sci hybrid. It therefore makes sense to give the Mogai its current Tac/Eng heavy BOff- and console layout.
First of all, that setup for the D'Deridex is pretty amazing. I doubt that any one can complain too much about that, except for those who will complain that the Galaxy now doesn't have the same setup.
Second, regarding the Mogai: The current setup of the Mogai makes it a very very good ship. The old setup also made it a very good ship.
I was really looking forward to the old setup, because the entire thing screamed "science ship" between the Mogai specific consoles, the stats, Boff layout, console layout, etc. Other than a lack of +aux it was pretty much everything I would expect, and on top of that, the Valdore "costume" looks really sweet.
Rather than swapping it back, have you considered possibly swapping the current Mogai built in consoles to the Dhael/Dehlan along with the old seating and console setup, etc? That would allow the smaller, "funkier" ship to be the tac/science focused ship, without jeopardizing the very nice tac/engineer "destroyer" feel of the current Mogai.
I understand that there is also a dedicated Romulan science ship now, but since it isn't part of the legacy pack, there's really nothing in the pack right now for some one who wants to play a sneaky/science Romulan (which is kind of how I imagined the Romulans would be in general).
Anything that results in a nimble science based refit/retrofit tandem being part of the legacy pack is probably going to get my purchase. Anything that isn't, will probably encourage me to skip it. I'm not sure where any one else stands on it.
How long something has been broken or subpar is irrelevant
Who says it's broken? That's what I'm getting at. There was a time when the Excelsior didn't exist but the Retrofit Galaxy did. There was a time when EPS consoles allowed you to regenerate energy during a firing cycle meaning your weapons power drain didn't dip below 100 when firing 8 beams. There was a time when Cannons drained more power than they currently do.
I disagree with you that the ship is broken. It's never been broken. It's just a very engineering focused cruiser.
It's BOFF layout would be fine if Engineering Powers worked differently in terms of variety and shared cooldowns. Which means there's nothing wrong with the ship itself.
Bottom line:
Bottom Line: The Legacy of Romulus is NOT about the Galaxy. Nor is this thread.
Who says it's broken? That's what I'm getting at. There was a time when the Excelsior didn't exist but the Retrofit Galaxy did. There was a time when EPS consoles allowed you to regenerate energy during a firing cycle meaning your weapons power drain didn't dip below 100 when firing 8 beams. There was a time when Cannons drained more power than they currently do.
I disagree with you that the ship is broken. It's never been broken. It's just a very engineering focused cruiser.
It's BOFF layout would be fine if Engineering Powers worked differently in terms of variety and shared cooldowns. Which means there's nothing wrong with the ship itself.
Bottom Line: The Legacy of Romulus is NOT about the Galaxy. Nor is this thread.
Who says it's broken? That's what I'm getting at. There was a time when the Excelsior didn't exist but the Retrofit Galaxy did. There was a time when EPS consoles allowed you to regenerate energy during a firing cycle meaning your weapons power drain didn't dip below 100 when firing 8 beams. There was a time when Cannons drained more power than they currently do.
And that would be relevant if there were mirrored mechanics that were altered, while the original ones weren't.
I disagree with you that the ship is broken. It's never been broken. It's just a very engineering focused cruiser.
It's BOFF layout would be fine if Engineering Powers worked differently in terms of variety and shared cooldowns. Which means there's nothing wrong with the ship itself.
So by your own reasoning, as long as engineering powers are as they are, the Galaxy is ****ed. Considering how unlikely a wholesale revamp of the entire Engineering powerset has been described to be by the people responsible for said powerset (notably Bort and Arbiter), that means the only other avenue to explore is changing the ship itself.
And given the relationship between the Galaxy and the D'Deridex, a wholesale revamp of one is the perfect opportunity to perform a wholesale revamp of the other.
Bottom Line: The Legacy of Romulus is NOT about the Galaxy. Nor is this thread.
This thread is about ship balance. The D'Deridex has been explicitly described by the Dev responsible for LoR ship balance to be a Romulan analog to the Galaxy.
Thusly, when something concerns the D'Deridex, for example a massive retuning of it's capabilities because previous versions were considered subpar, the Galaxy is involved.
I like the new suggestion for hte D?Deridex setup.
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
In case of the Dehlan and the Mogai, easiest solution would be to offer the two ships in both versions. Then ppl who like the sci heavy version could choose the skin they like both and so could the ppl who like the eng heavy version better.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
RE: D'deridex
Given that it handles like one of the big carriers, and you're proposing a Carrier-style BOff layout for it, why not something like this:
COM Sci (Eng, if you really want to push the Cruiser aspect)
LTC Tac
LTC Eng (Sci, if you really want to push the Cruiser aspect)
LT Uni
Really, the ship already handles like a carrier, it trades its two hangars for Singularity Powers and Battle Cloak. It ought to have a Carrier BOff layout, anyway. Though, if you're dead-set on it being a Battle Cruiser, you could swap the COM Sci slot and LTC Eng slot around. It'd leave it up to the player to determine just how heavy they want to go into Tac, Sci, or Eng while still allowing the ship to play aggressively within the limits of its performance.
The consoles should follow exactly what you've outlined: 3/3/3 in its Refit form with its Fleet variant picking up a 4th Engineering console. It you take the Commander Science/LTC Eng variant, that 4th console should probably go into Science instead.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
As President of Cardmerica, I approve of the potential D'Derdex change,but if you guys do decide to change it, what will be the replacement, for an engineer focus cruiser, unlike some players I do have a role in my fleet as the support and would like a dedicated Engineering cruiser something like the Fleet Galaxy class or the Operations Odyssey for the Romulans.
As for the Mogi, either ways it's fine for me, but I do prefer the new Mogi.
that central section being this big solid cylinder gives that ship an enormous volume, that by itself would exceed the volume of the d'deridex. i understand automatically giving a sci ship better turn, but in this case, this sci ship is the largest ship available to the romulans, aside from the combined ha'apax. i simply cant ignore how much more poorly the d'deridex turns then something still larger then it. compared to that top sci ship section, the d'deridex should have a turn rate at least close to that, like about 9?
i'd give up a second LTC station for more turn rate. i want that more then i want a station setup change, that would do it more good.
the perfect d'deridex in my opinion is this
COM eng LTC tac LT eng LT sci
ENS sci
with 4/2/3 and for fleet 4/3/3 console setups
with 9 turn. take hull from it too even, the ship proved to be sorta fragile as a ship of the line, not a tank. its supposed to be a decloaking alpha striker, not an attrition fighter. theres also no canon evidence of it being an especially great or poor turner. ive gone back and looked at every scene with one i could find.
a d'deridex's main single cannon, which should be the DHC hardpoints on top of each other on top of the deflector, is credited with removing 10% of a galaxy classes shields per shot in tin man, and in the DS9 episode visionary, were emissions from its singularity core caused o'brian to jump ahead in time, a d'deridex single handedly destroyed DS9, and then the worm hole in a decloak alpha. it should be the most dangerous cruiser in the game really. but my above stats fit it well enough for its in game use.
make this change to the d'deridex, leave the rest of the changes as is, and i'll buy a legacy pack
Please, for the love of god, this. 5 turn is no where near a worthwhile tradeoff for an extra Lt Cmdr. You have given it the ability to use cannons....the only thing that can compete with these resists anymore....and it will never be able to use them. 5 turn is not only NOT fun to fly, it is such a handicap that it doesn't balance out, it completely nullifies any benefit.
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
Id say just make a fleet "valdore" refit and give it the orginal mogai layout/look and do same with the other then everyone is happy. But if thats a no go Mogai back to the way it was is my vote it looked forward to it, this change was to drastic on almost all the ships.
The D'D change would be AWESOME DOOOOOOOO IT! While your at it do the Fleet galaxy with it as well! The galaxy and the D'D were almost exact counter parts, both were exploration and mainstay battleships of their factions at the same time. Since the Neg'var is getting reworked with the addition of the disruptor pods in a C-Store variant the fleet neg doesnt need added to this change and honestly a LTC sci on it wouldnt make any sense.
But fleet neg getting a boff seating similar to the regant wouldnt be a bad choice when it is updated.
Mogai back to what it was.
Fleet D'D and Galaxy to the 2 LTC layout with 4/3/3 consoles would be great they would be useful and fun to play even with low turnrate.
Neg refit cstore/new/old fleet neg update make it happen soonish after the launch of LoR.
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
Please do so!
The Valdore is the better option for a Science focus Warbird. It may be larger than the Dhelan, but it is also bigger and more of an aerodynamic design. Compared to the Dhelan which is more compact and bulky. This would lead to a more "tanky" role to her.
The second point is that Science Officers simply lack of offense option and such rely on tactical seatings to compensate that. The Valdore had the perfect options with the original seatings. I'd like to compare the Valdore to the Prometheus for Federation players.
It is of a good balance.
I tried all Fleet and non-Fleet Escorts as a Science Career Captain.
Starting from the Fleet Defiant, to Fleed Armitage and the best combination was the Fleet Prometheus. The Ship is perfect for Science Captains who want to use their Science focused career option and a more offensive gameplay whithout being OP.
I would like to have that once again for Romulan Captains. Let's face it: The Valdore type is simply iconic and should definetly be more presented. Oh, and don't forget the fact that Romulans - at least the part we are part of are shifting their focus on exploration and science instead of the Tal'Shiar which is clear more on the aggressive path. And since the Valdore/Mogais are the backbone of the Romulans in the current timeline, they should represent that peaceful path too.
The second option would be: simply put a Fleet Valdore for those of us who wish to fly a Valdore type and be more science focused. But, a change back to the first iteration would be far easier and better.
The D'deridex revamp sounds good, but I think in your proposal it is too good with the seatings 2x Lt.Cmdr slots is + 1 Cmdr is a little too much. Perhaps cut 1 Ensign slot and give it a Lt. Universal?
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
I myself would personally have the Mogai returned to the Science Lieutenant Commander!
I don't see how considering it being a Destroyer matters much, pretty much every ship that is called or considered a Destroyer has either a lt cmdr tac or a universal slot.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
I love any boff seating that gets away from the standard VA so three thumbs up (don't ask) on the D'deridex boff layout proposed.
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
I prefer the old Mogai set-up, however that is just personal preference.
As for the D'deridex...YES!! That is right on the money! Perfect reflection of the D'deridex!
Thanks for the expansion that had "as much content as the last"
9 Episodes = 30+ episodes...?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's pronounced "S.T.O." "Stow" sounds idiotic! lol
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
No disrespect intended, but here's why i think the current system is flawed:
- People have no freedom to use both the ship they love visually, and have the boff seating they want.
Obviously nobody here will agree with each other, so why not just make the boff seating a universal one as well?
What could anyone possibly have against this solution? Everyone happy.
Since the day I play this game (Lifetimer) I really dont see why you guys keep restricting ships so much in layout, sure, Overall the Commander stations are always fixed (Except on a very few ships like recluse) but overall the commander station state the class of the ship.
Why not give all others a free uni slot.
Easiest solution, and makes everyone happy. And more ships sold for you guys. People buy ships for their looks first, and only after wards worry about boff seatings.
I bought a Legacy pack myself and i was kind of hoping for some looser restrictions regarding to the old skool fixed boff seatings without any flexibility what so ever.
Keep changing bridge officer stations is just not done.
Also, now we are at this subject anyway, there are alot of paid for ships in this game that dont get any love at all, check out the Defiant-R, 3 useless Tactical ensigns, its subpar especially for a ship that has been made for hit and run. Galaxy ship ppl keep complaining about, lols.
Perhaps I got a second solution that will benefit Cryptic:
Create a special upgrade for 100K dilithium or 500 zen where you can freely update/change any of your 4/5 bridge officer stations to a universal. Once usable per ship. How does that sound? That would solve ALOT of problems.
i think there should proboly be a new class of cruiser, between cruisers and carriers, call them all dreadnoughts or something. the difference is that ships get more consoles and a second LTC station in exchange for them being so large. they would all have the COM, LTC, LTC, LT setup, with between 10 to 11 consoles. their turn rates should range from 6 to 9, and they should have the lowest inertia. small cruisers should get a turn rate and inertia buff in exchange. also a +5 to defense score buff, wile these dreadnoughts get a -5 to defense score, and a -.2 to impulse modifier vs a normal cruiser. wile your at it, give sci ships a scaling + to defense score as their sensor analysis ranks increase, vs their target, up to +10. give escorts a +15 defense score, and a +5 acc bonus vs dreadnoughts too.
ships that should be in the dreadnoughts category are:
d'deridex
ha'apax
negvar
bortas
odyssey
galaxys
they should come stranded with 10 consoles, fleet versions comeing with 11.
d'deridex COM sci LTC eng LTC tac LT uni
9 turn
42k hull
1.0 shield mod
consoles:
3 eng
4 sci
3 tac(+1 for fleet)
ha'apax COM eng LTC tac LTC uni LT sci
6 turn
46k hull
1.05 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
3 sci
3 tac(+1 for fleet)
negvar COM tac LTC eng
LTC eng LT uni
9 turn
45k hull
1.0 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
2 sci
4 tac(+1 for fleet)
bortas COM eng LTC tac LTC uni LT tac
6 turn
47k hull
1.0 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng(+1 War Cruiser)
2 sci(+1 Command Cruiser)
4 tac(+1 Tactical Cruiser)
galaxyR COM eng LTC tac LTC sci LT uni
8 turn
48k hull
1.05 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
3 sci(+1 for fleet)
3 tac
galaxyX COM tac LTC eng
LTC eng LT uni
8 turn
48k hull
1.05 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
2 sci(+1 for fleet)
4 tac
odyessy COM eng LTC sci LTC uni LT tac
7 turn
50k hull
1.15 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng(+1 for Operations Cruiser)
4 sci(+1 for Science Cruiser)
2 tac(+1 for Tactical Cruiser)
why would i propose something so OP? simple, the larger a ship is, the worse it performs, this is finally a balancing step to but these things in line.these ships move like carriers but have no hangers, and have inferior numbers of stations. buffing the level of stations they have to carrier level, and adding another console to them is appropriate. you cant just make them turn better till they are good, that would crowd the smaller cruisers out at what should be their strength, a balance of maneuverability and sturdiness. why is the galaxy getting a better turn rate of 8? well, compared to all these other ships in the category, its actually the smallest. so ya, 8 is appropriate vs the rest of these huge ships.
the sovereign, star cruiser, ambassador, excelsior, cheyenne, dkora, galor, vorcha, kamarang and ktinga should get increased inertia and turn rate in exchange for not being one of the stat bloated dreadnoughts, with a range of 12 to 9.
Can we PLEASE see the T'Varo nerf reversed? The Defiant needs some non-fed, non-lockbox competition and the T'Varo was the perfect candidate for this.
Did any of you people ever bother to look past the 5 consoles and see its old boff layout?
This ship was not nerfed, it was improved greatly with its new boff layout. Stop thinking like a fed escort pilot and think like a Romulan/BOP pilot. Enhanced battle cloak ships need something like Lt Cmdr sci or a uni so they can properly make use of the cloak and sci spam while cloaked.
I am really glad this ship will appeal more to KDF bop pilots now rather then fed escort pilots, the romulans will be much stronger as a faction without this type trying to use a T'Varo as a DHC escort rather then play it as a bop.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
This is what the D'D should have had to begin with. A change like this will move it from being a Derpa'Dex to being the amazingly awesome romulan warbird we have all seen from the shows.
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
So the D'D gets 2 lt. CMdr and a Cmdr boffs stations?
Man, that just shows how poorly the older ships and their fleet versions have fared.
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
That D'Deridex change sounds a lot better than the current state. DO IT!
The Mogai has not displayed any Science abilities on Screen (Nemesis or as STO NPC!) It was a pure Shooting Stuff Ship.
Tac + Eng is just fine as it is for its layout, in fact it might be the best and straightest layout in the fleet if you DON'T want any fancy wizzard stuff (i don't).
I like ships that have good pew and are a little tanky too. as long as there is a Sci Lt. slot i'm happy.
Personally i would go with a slightly more Sci centric layout on the D'Deridex (Lt.Cmdr. SCI + 3 sci slots) so it can actually do the stuff we've seen it do in TNG and in STO as NPC.
[and i see you want to do that]
I'd also give it more pew pew because 2 tac consoles and only some low end Tac BOff Powers will not be fun (at all) after flying a 5 Tac Console Bortas'qu with lots of PEW.
[and i see you want to do that]
Other than it's size i see no real reason why this should be an Engineer heavy Tank ship.
In fact i would even doubt that it's turn rate is appropriate, the ship is empty on the inside, it doesn't have as much Mass as it looks like on first glance.
So YES do the D'Deridex Changes.
And NO don't change the Mogain in any way, Engineering + Tac is fine, keep the Sci stuff for Science ships please.
Here is another idea to consider:
Maybe give us both variants of the Mogai?
The SCI version could be the Mirror Ship in the Tal'Shiar LockBox... or the other Fleet Ship Version that is available for 200.000 Fleetcredits, instead of 20k + 4 (or 1) Fleet Modules.
There are ways to make both happen if people really want it so badly.
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
I feel like giving the Romulans a science-ish ship is better for their overall variety. Given their currently limited number of overall ships, that seems more important than it might be otherwise. I don't have any particular issue with the "new" versions per se, but they feel slightly less different from one another overall.
That D'Deridex setup looks interesting too, though 3 Lt. Com or better BOFF slots seems like it might draw rage from some quarters. Can't please everyone I suppose. The console layout is definitely better for how the game currently works and I have a hard time finding an argument against it with a straight face. It will make the ship more powerful. We may not all like that more tac consoles = more competitive, but as the game currently works that's just the way things are. So I can't say I'd cry if it moves from 2 to 3.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
Add me as another vote for the change to the D'Deridex layout. I'd been really looking forward to flying it, even planning on using it as my character's main ship, but the original layout was so lackluster. This is much more workable. Please implement this version!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
We've been monitoring the feedback closely, and I'd like to run two specific changes behind the people here.
-We could swap the Mogai back to Tactical/Science and the Dhelan back to Tactical/Engineering. I can see that a lot of people preferred the old setup, but there seem to be some people who prefer the new version as well. The Mogai is the "heavier" ship and more comparable to a Destroyer in turn rate and hull, so Engineering seems to be a little more appropriate, but I can see the argument that the consoles for the Mogai have a more "Science" feel.
This could occur either by just swapping the current Dhelan Retrofit and Mogai Retrofit seating, or by giving the Dhelan Retrofit the current Mogai Retrofit seating and reverting the Mogai Retrofit back to its old seating.
I'd like to see more arguments for one side or another that involve more than personal preference.
-I am considering changing the D'deridex Retrofit to the following:
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
Consoles would most likely be adjusted as well if this change was made, probably to 3-3-3 on the Retrofit and 3-4-3 (4 Eng) on the Fleet version.
As always, these are just possible changes - nothing is set in stone.
Love the Idea of the En Universal on the D'deridex, in fact I think there needs to be some serious consideration about adding higher level universal stations to all ships. Personally I think if you made the ships more universally opened you would actually see an increase in sales because people with limited funds wouldn't have to chose between a 3 pack or buying multiple ships.
Another aspect of it that seriously needs to be reconsidered is the turn rate. My primary ship is the Excelsior and I couldn't imagine using anything with a lower turn rate than that unless it was a carrier. The current logic seems to be make escorts more and more maneuverable and more and more powerful despite them really not having the size to fit all this in. Yes a cruiser is bigger, but that just means it has more room for more and better weapons, a larger warp core, and more thrusters. The turn rates are too disproportional and it's something that is to the point where it really needs to be addressed.
Comments
True, but Romulans can't access either Temporal Destroyer becuase they are T5 ally ships. Until there is a Romulan version made, if there even is one being planned.
It would be better to just have an alternate version of one of the existing fleet ships or a new fleet ship.
I'm pretty sure it was stated officially that there will be temporal ships for Romulans, just the "When" is in doubt.
Also, dat Aux2Bat build :P
First of all, that setup for the D'Deridex is pretty amazing. I doubt that any one can complain too much about that, except for those who will complain that the Galaxy now doesn't have the same setup.
Second, regarding the Mogai: The current setup of the Mogai makes it a very very good ship. The old setup also made it a very good ship.
I was really looking forward to the old setup, because the entire thing screamed "science ship" between the Mogai specific consoles, the stats, Boff layout, console layout, etc. Other than a lack of +aux it was pretty much everything I would expect, and on top of that, the Valdore "costume" looks really sweet.
Rather than swapping it back, have you considered possibly swapping the current Mogai built in consoles to the Dhael/Dehlan along with the old seating and console setup, etc? That would allow the smaller, "funkier" ship to be the tac/science focused ship, without jeopardizing the very nice tac/engineer "destroyer" feel of the current Mogai.
I understand that there is also a dedicated Romulan science ship now, but since it isn't part of the legacy pack, there's really nothing in the pack right now for some one who wants to play a sneaky/science Romulan (which is kind of how I imagined the Romulans would be in general).
Anything that results in a nimble science based refit/retrofit tandem being part of the legacy pack is probably going to get my purchase. Anything that isn't, will probably encourage me to skip it. I'm not sure where any one else stands on it.
Who says it's broken? That's what I'm getting at. There was a time when the Excelsior didn't exist but the Retrofit Galaxy did. There was a time when EPS consoles allowed you to regenerate energy during a firing cycle meaning your weapons power drain didn't dip below 100 when firing 8 beams. There was a time when Cannons drained more power than they currently do.
I disagree with you that the ship is broken. It's never been broken. It's just a very engineering focused cruiser.
It's BOFF layout would be fine if Engineering Powers worked differently in terms of variety and shared cooldowns. Which means there's nothing wrong with the ship itself.
Bottom Line: The Legacy of Romulus is NOT about the Galaxy. Nor is this thread.
Amen to that, Snogs !
And that would be relevant if there were mirrored mechanics that were altered, while the original ones weren't.
So by your own reasoning, as long as engineering powers are as they are, the Galaxy is ****ed. Considering how unlikely a wholesale revamp of the entire Engineering powerset has been described to be by the people responsible for said powerset (notably Bort and Arbiter), that means the only other avenue to explore is changing the ship itself.
And given the relationship between the Galaxy and the D'Deridex, a wholesale revamp of one is the perfect opportunity to perform a wholesale revamp of the other.
This thread is about ship balance. The D'Deridex has been explicitly described by the Dev responsible for LoR ship balance to be a Romulan analog to the Galaxy.
Thusly, when something concerns the D'Deridex, for example a massive retuning of it's capabilities because previous versions were considered subpar, the Galaxy is involved.
:cool:
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
Ensign Tac, Lt. Com Tac, Commander Eng, Lt. Com Sci, En Universal
In case of the Dehlan and the Mogai, easiest solution would be to offer the two ships in both versions. Then ppl who like the sci heavy version could choose the skin they like both and so could the ppl who like the eng heavy version better.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
RE: D'deridex
Given that it handles like one of the big carriers, and you're proposing a Carrier-style BOff layout for it, why not something like this:
COM Sci (Eng, if you really want to push the Cruiser aspect)
LTC Tac
LTC Eng (Sci, if you really want to push the Cruiser aspect)
LT Uni
Really, the ship already handles like a carrier, it trades its two hangars for Singularity Powers and Battle Cloak. It ought to have a Carrier BOff layout, anyway. Though, if you're dead-set on it being a Battle Cruiser, you could swap the COM Sci slot and LTC Eng slot around. It'd leave it up to the player to determine just how heavy they want to go into Tac, Sci, or Eng while still allowing the ship to play aggressively within the limits of its performance.
The consoles should follow exactly what you've outlined: 3/3/3 in its Refit form with its Fleet variant picking up a 4th Engineering console. It you take the Commander Science/LTC Eng variant, that 4th console should probably go into Science instead.
As for the Mogi, either ways it's fine for me, but I do prefer the new Mogi.
Please, for the love of god, this. 5 turn is no where near a worthwhile tradeoff for an extra Lt Cmdr. You have given it the ability to use cannons....the only thing that can compete with these resists anymore....and it will never be able to use them. 5 turn is not only NOT fun to fly, it is such a handicap that it doesn't balance out, it completely nullifies any benefit.
Why is THIS the canon issue you stick to?
not going to happen. the enhanced battle cloak insures that.
The Defiant does have competition on the romulan side in the Dhelan currently with it's 5 tac consoles.
Id say just make a fleet "valdore" refit and give it the orginal mogai layout/look and do same with the other then everyone is happy. But if thats a no go Mogai back to the way it was is my vote it looked forward to it, this change was to drastic on almost all the ships.
The D'D change would be AWESOME DOOOOOOOO IT! While your at it do the Fleet galaxy with it as well! The galaxy and the D'D were almost exact counter parts, both were exploration and mainstay battleships of their factions at the same time. Since the Neg'var is getting reworked with the addition of the disruptor pods in a C-Store variant the fleet neg doesnt need added to this change and honestly a LTC sci on it wouldnt make any sense.
But fleet neg getting a boff seating similar to the regant wouldnt be a bad choice when it is updated.
Mogai back to what it was.
Fleet D'D and Galaxy to the 2 LTC layout with 4/3/3 consoles would be great they would be useful and fun to play even with low turnrate.
Neg refit cstore/new/old fleet neg update make it happen soonish after the launch of LoR.
1) Keep the new setups for the T'varo, Dhelan and Mogai.
1A: or switch Dhelan and Mogai, same setups.
2) Make Fleet Valdore as alternate Mogai with the previous setup. Dhelan and Mogai keep current setups.
and Absolutely YES to the D'Deridax changes.
Personally i pick #2. I can see the advantage to that Mogai, but we really could use a 4 sci escort type ship and a Fleet Valdore could fit that.
Please do so!
The Valdore is the better option for a Science focus Warbird. It may be larger than the Dhelan, but it is also bigger and more of an aerodynamic design. Compared to the Dhelan which is more compact and bulky. This would lead to a more "tanky" role to her.
The second point is that Science Officers simply lack of offense option and such rely on tactical seatings to compensate that. The Valdore had the perfect options with the original seatings. I'd like to compare the Valdore to the Prometheus for Federation players.
It is of a good balance.
I tried all Fleet and non-Fleet Escorts as a Science Career Captain.
Starting from the Fleet Defiant, to Fleed Armitage and the best combination was the Fleet Prometheus. The Ship is perfect for Science Captains who want to use their Science focused career option and a more offensive gameplay whithout being OP.
I would like to have that once again for Romulan Captains. Let's face it: The Valdore type is simply iconic and should definetly be more presented. Oh, and don't forget the fact that Romulans - at least the part we are part of are shifting their focus on exploration and science instead of the Tal'Shiar which is clear more on the aggressive path. And since the Valdore/Mogais are the backbone of the Romulans in the current timeline, they should represent that peaceful path too.
The second option would be: simply put a Fleet Valdore for those of us who wish to fly a Valdore type and be more science focused. But, a change back to the first iteration would be far easier and better.
The D'deridex revamp sounds good, but I think in your proposal it is too good with the seatings 2x Lt.Cmdr slots is + 1 Cmdr is a little too much. Perhaps cut 1 Ensign slot and give it a Lt. Universal?
I myself would personally have the Mogai returned to the Science Lieutenant Commander!
I don't see how considering it being a Destroyer matters much, pretty much every ship that is called or considered a Destroyer has either a lt cmdr tac or a universal slot.
I love any boff seating that gets away from the standard VA so three thumbs up (don't ask) on the D'deridex boff layout proposed.
I prefer the old Mogai set-up, however that is just personal preference.
As for the D'deridex...YES!! That is right on the money! Perfect reflection of the D'deridex!
9 Episodes = 30+ episodes...?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's pronounced "S.T.O." "Stow" sounds idiotic! lol
No disrespect intended, but here's why i think the current system is flawed:
- People have no freedom to use both the ship they love visually, and have the boff seating they want.
Obviously nobody here will agree with each other, so why not just make the boff seating a universal one as well?
What could anyone possibly have against this solution? Everyone happy.
Since the day I play this game (Lifetimer) I really dont see why you guys keep restricting ships so much in layout, sure, Overall the Commander stations are always fixed (Except on a very few ships like recluse) but overall the commander station state the class of the ship.
Why not give all others a free uni slot.
Easiest solution, and makes everyone happy. And more ships sold for you guys. People buy ships for their looks first, and only after wards worry about boff seatings.
I bought a Legacy pack myself and i was kind of hoping for some looser restrictions regarding to the old skool fixed boff seatings without any flexibility what so ever.
Keep changing bridge officer stations is just not done.
Also, now we are at this subject anyway, there are alot of paid for ships in this game that dont get any love at all, check out the Defiant-R, 3 useless Tactical ensigns, its subpar especially for a ship that has been made for hit and run. Galaxy ship ppl keep complaining about, lols.
Perhaps I got a second solution that will benefit Cryptic:
Create a special upgrade for 100K dilithium or 500 zen where you can freely update/change any of your 4/5 bridge officer stations to a universal. Once usable per ship. How does that sound? That would solve ALOT of problems.
ships that should be in the dreadnoughts category are:
d'deridex
ha'apax
negvar
bortas
odyssey
galaxys
they should come stranded with 10 consoles, fleet versions comeing with 11.
d'deridex
COM sci
LTC eng
LTC tac
LT uni
9 turn
42k hull
1.0 shield mod
consoles:
3 eng
4 sci
3 tac(+1 for fleet)
ha'apax
COM eng
LTC tac
LTC uni
LT sci
6 turn
46k hull
1.05 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
3 sci
3 tac(+1 for fleet)
negvar
COM tac
LTC eng
LTC eng
LT uni
9 turn
45k hull
1.0 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
2 sci
4 tac(+1 for fleet)
bortas
COM eng
LTC tac
LTC uni
LT tac
6 turn
47k hull
1.0 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng(+1 War Cruiser)
2 sci(+1 Command Cruiser)
4 tac(+1 Tactical Cruiser)
galaxyR
COM eng
LTC tac
LTC sci
LT uni
8 turn
48k hull
1.05 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
3 sci(+1 for fleet)
3 tac
galaxyX
COM tac
LTC eng
LTC eng
LT uni
8 turn
48k hull
1.05 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng
2 sci(+1 for fleet)
4 tac
odyessy
COM eng
LTC sci
LTC uni
LT tac
7 turn
50k hull
1.15 shield mod
consoles:
4 eng(+1 for Operations Cruiser)
4 sci(+1 for Science Cruiser)
2 tac(+1 for Tactical Cruiser)
why would i propose something so OP? simple, the larger a ship is, the worse it performs, this is finally a balancing step to but these things in line.these ships move like carriers but have no hangers, and have inferior numbers of stations. buffing the level of stations they have to carrier level, and adding another console to them is appropriate. you cant just make them turn better till they are good, that would crowd the smaller cruisers out at what should be their strength, a balance of maneuverability and sturdiness. why is the galaxy getting a better turn rate of 8? well, compared to all these other ships in the category, its actually the smallest. so ya, 8 is appropriate vs the rest of these huge ships.
the sovereign, star cruiser, ambassador, excelsior, cheyenne, dkora, galor, vorcha, kamarang and ktinga should get increased inertia and turn rate in exchange for not being one of the stat bloated dreadnoughts, with a range of 12 to 9.
sovereign-9.5 turn, 40 inertia
star cruiser-9 turn, 35 inertia
ambassador-9 turn, 40 inertia
excelsior-10 turn, 50 inertia
cheyenne-10.5 turn, 50 inertia
dkora- 10 turn, 40 inertia
galor- 11 turn, 50 inertia
vorcha- 10.5 turn, 40 inertia
kamarang- 11 turn, 45 inertia
ktinga- 11.5 turn, 50 inertia
Did any of you people ever bother to look past the 5 consoles and see its old boff layout?
This ship was not nerfed, it was improved greatly with its new boff layout. Stop thinking like a fed escort pilot and think like a Romulan/BOP pilot. Enhanced battle cloak ships need something like Lt Cmdr sci or a uni so they can properly make use of the cloak and sci spam while cloaked.
I am really glad this ship will appeal more to KDF bop pilots now rather then fed escort pilots, the romulans will be much stronger as a faction without this type trying to use a T'Varo as a DHC escort rather then play it as a bop.
This is what the D'D should have had to begin with. A change like this will move it from being a Derpa'Dex to being the amazingly awesome romulan warbird we have all seen from the shows.
So the D'D gets 2 lt. CMdr and a Cmdr boffs stations?
Man, that just shows how poorly the older ships and their fleet versions have fared.
That D'Deridex change sounds a lot better than the current state. DO IT!
The Mogai has not displayed any Science abilities on Screen (Nemesis or as STO NPC!) It was a pure Shooting Stuff Ship.
Tac + Eng is just fine as it is for its layout, in fact it might be the best and straightest layout in the fleet if you DON'T want any fancy wizzard stuff (i don't).
I like ships that have good pew and are a little tanky too. as long as there is a Sci Lt. slot i'm happy.
Personally i would go with a slightly more Sci centric layout on the D'Deridex (Lt.Cmdr. SCI + 3 sci slots) so it can actually do the stuff we've seen it do in TNG and in STO as NPC.
[and i see you want to do that]
I'd also give it more pew pew because 2 tac consoles and only some low end Tac BOff Powers will not be fun (at all) after flying a 5 Tac Console Bortas'qu with lots of PEW.
[and i see you want to do that]
Other than it's size i see no real reason why this should be an Engineer heavy Tank ship.
In fact i would even doubt that it's turn rate is appropriate, the ship is empty on the inside, it doesn't have as much Mass as it looks like on first glance.
So YES do the D'Deridex Changes.
And NO don't change the Mogain in any way, Engineering + Tac is fine, keep the Sci stuff for Science ships please.
Here is another idea to consider:
Maybe give us both variants of the Mogai?
The SCI version could be the Mirror Ship in the Tal'Shiar LockBox... or the other Fleet Ship Version that is available for 200.000 Fleetcredits, instead of 20k + 4 (or 1) Fleet Modules.
There are ways to make both happen if people really want it so badly.
I feel like giving the Romulans a science-ish ship is better for their overall variety. Given their currently limited number of overall ships, that seems more important than it might be otherwise. I don't have any particular issue with the "new" versions per se, but they feel slightly less different from one another overall.
That D'Deridex setup looks interesting too, though 3 Lt. Com or better BOFF slots seems like it might draw rage from some quarters. Can't please everyone I suppose. The console layout is definitely better for how the game currently works and I have a hard time finding an argument against it with a straight face. It will make the ship more powerful. We may not all like that more tac consoles = more competitive, but as the game currently works that's just the way things are. So I can't say I'd cry if it moves from 2 to 3.
"We are smart." - Grebnedlog
Member of Alliance Central Command/boq botlhra'ghom
Add me as another vote for the change to the D'Deridex layout. I'd been really looking forward to flying it, even planning on using it as my character's main ship, but the original layout was so lackluster. This is much more workable. Please implement this version!
This character is why I don't play my Romulan any more. Tovan Khev is NOT my BFF! Get him off my bridge!
Love the Idea of the En Universal on the D'deridex, in fact I think there needs to be some serious consideration about adding higher level universal stations to all ships. Personally I think if you made the ships more universally opened you would actually see an increase in sales because people with limited funds wouldn't have to chose between a 3 pack or buying multiple ships.
Another aspect of it that seriously needs to be reconsidered is the turn rate. My primary ship is the Excelsior and I couldn't imagine using anything with a lower turn rate than that unless it was a carrier. The current logic seems to be make escorts more and more maneuverable and more and more powerful despite them really not having the size to fit all this in. Yes a cruiser is bigger, but that just means it has more room for more and better weapons, a larger warp core, and more thrusters. The turn rates are too disproportional and it's something that is to the point where it really needs to be addressed.