There have been many suggestions regarding sliding scale costs for fleets. Some good, some bad. The problem is regardless of how well thought out the ideas we have are, the likelihood of PWE/Cryptic actually implementing them is close to nil. They WANT to control us. They WANT to make it difficult for small fleets to achieve success. They KNOW the majority of players are in small fleets. Butts in seats. I have been saying this since they nerfed dilithium back with the introduction of S7.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I posted my plan not because I thought there was any chance that Cryptic would implement it, but just to demonstrate that it's not that hard to make a system that would be difficult to exploit.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
I can't speak for anyone else, but I posted my plan not because I thought there was any chance that Cryptic would implement it, but just to demonstrate that it's not that hard to make a system that would be difficult to exploit.
Unfortunately, there would be a workaround on this one. Larger fleet Commanders would simply cut loose their non productive or less productive members in favor of cheaper projects. If given the opportunity; I fear a good portion would bite at the chance. If you have a 100 man fleet,but only 20 contribute the majority, it would be in their best interest to let the others go,and allow the highly productive members to work a little less to get way more.
But I concede your point,there are certainly more than the two options Dan gave us. PWE just doesn't want you to think there may be more options available.
I do believe that the devs are capable of providing good content and fixing the bugs in the game.
But I don't think they are allowed to spend time doing it by the "overlords" in charge of the game.
If the "overlords" would just take a little time from their "vision" of "farming" the players (aka customers) for every single penny of money we have and address the real problems of the game, they would reap an amazimg amount of long term profit from a STABLE and ENJOYABLE game platform for years!
We, the players (aka customers) are here because we love Star Trek!
We don't love FARMING or bad/no content, or a game that feels like another JOB!
Another thing that could be useful--and I suspect it would appeal to PWE's chance-based models (demonstrated by their preferences for lock boxes and such things)--what about increasing the amount you can crit for in the Commendation Reports assignments? It would have to be pretty significant--from 100 (where it currently is) to perhaps, say, 150 (that is, 2x the standard reward of 75).
There would still need to be other changes made, I think, especially since from what I've gathered, the majority of Level 50's haven't pushed their DOFFs as far as I have on my main and achieved the maximum tier in all categories. However, I think that it would be a useful improvement, especially since you can do your DOFF assignments while you have fun on other aspects of the game.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
i think they just need to raise the amount of fleet marks you get in the fleet actions to 70 when the rep isnt on and 100 for them when it is on.
This is so beyond just FMs now. Honestly, I think you are finally seeing months of pent up frustration hitting the breaking point. Even if PW decided to reinstate FMs into foundry missions,or they added more to the events, I would have to respond with "Sorry,not good enough anymore." And I feel that there would be quite a few players standing side by side with me on that.
We are not the contents of our wallets. Our voices will be heard, or our silence will be deafening.
Actually, today was a holiday in the US; many businesses were closed, although many others were not. As I don't work for Cryptic or PWE, I honestly don't know if they were in the office today or not; I interact with the community team, and those guys work 365.24 days a year.
And for those unaware, they're in Pacific time, which is UTC minus 8 hours, if this helps you figure out where they are in the work day.
...and I don't think they come in the office that early, so you can get lots more "why is there no response from Dan?" posts in while Dan's still not back at work from the weekend.
What gets me, is the fact that Mr Stahl has posted in a few other forum topics, just a few hours ago, but left this topic to be ignored. I suppose 2000+ posts and 200 pages isn't enough to get his attention.
Devs - "Mr Stahl, we need to address these issues, the forums are getting out of hand and quite frankly I think we are doing something wrong to the Star Trek intellectual property"
Stahl - *Gives the Dev a stern look and begins to do the Harlem Shuffle*
Tuesday morn here in the uk and still nothing from the devs, I know the time difference but I would have thought that they could at least post from home, just something to acknowledge this thread and our dismay.......
Still say just revert the changes made in the Valantine Day Massacre Patch to the fleet marks, but as stated earlier its become more now.
This could have been nipped in the bud a lot earlier, know I fear whatever the devs do the damage done to the community trust and the STO name can't be repaired.
Where ever you go, there you are.......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
So here's a first pass at a reasonably non-exploitable fleet scaling system.
Fleets are grouped into the following five sizes:
Very Small (1-25)
Small (26-50)
Medium (51-100)
Large (101-200)
Vary Large (201-500)
The number of members in a fleet is determined by the number of characters in the fleet over a seven-day period. (I.e., any time a character leaves a fleet, that character slot is 'reserved' and not freed up for seven days. This keeps churn down, but allows the same character to come back within the seven day period without counting twice.)
The fleet leader can change the size of the fleet at any time. Downgrading to a smaller fleet size is free (as long as the number of fleet members is below the max of the new size). Upgrading to a larger fleet size causes the loss of one tier. You lose any improvements that requires the tier you lost. You downgrade to the bottom of the lower tier. Example: Your Medium fleet has a tier IV starbase, with tier IV shipyard, tier II industrial fabricator and tier IV communications array, with 10000 Starbase XP, 140000 Military XP, 50000 Engineering XP and 110000 Science XP. After you upgrade your fleet to Large, you would have a tier III starbase, with tier III shipyard, tier II industrial fabricator, and tier III communications array, with 8000 Starbase XP, 50000 Military XP, 25000 Engineering XP and 50000 Science XP. If you decide to upgrade right there to Very Large, you'd go down to a tier II starbase with tier II shipyard, tier I industrial fabricator, and tier II communicatinos array, with 5000 Starbase XP, 25000 Military XP, 10000 Engineering XP and 25000 Science XP.
At the time of conversion, all fleets are automatically Very Large, and it's up to the leaders to downgrade as desired.
Now this is where the scaling comes in. Smaller fleets pay less resources for their projects, but they take longer, and in the case of projects that create provisions, they create fewer provisions for the fleet. Here are the scaling factors.
Very Small: 20% resource cost, 200% time requirement, 20% provisions
Small: 40% resource cost, 150% time requirement, 40% provisions
Medium: 60% resource cost, 125% time requirement, 60% provisions
Large: 80% resource cost, 110% time requirement, 80% provisions
Very Large: 100% resource cost, 100% time requirement, 100% provisions
These scaling factors have two effects: 1) they make it affordable for a small fleet to work on fleet projects while ensuring that a large fleet that has the resources will always be faster and 2) the limitation on provisioning makes it impractical to build up a very small fleet starbase and use it to serve the needs of a large fleet by rotating members through.
As someone else who proposed a scaling fleet system, I support this. I thought of the provision amount reductions yesterday but didn't feel like posting.
Couple points:
- When (if) implemented, fleet leader makes a one time size call with no penalties. Afterwards follows the system as outlined, otherwise penalizes fleets that were always small.
- Resource costs on a per person basis should favour larger fleets (more hands, less work), so your percentages may need to be adjusted.
Another idea I had for a scaled system:
Only Fleet marks earned while a member of the fleet would be contributable to that fleets' projects.
This should stop fleet mark "purchasing". All other inputs are "exploitable".
Tuesday morn here in the uk and still nothing from the devs, I know the time difference but I would have thought that they could at least post from home, just something to acknowledge this thread and our dismay.......
Still say just revert the changes made in the Valantine Day Massacre Patch to the fleet marks, but as stated earlier its become more now.
This could have been nipped in the bud a lot earlier, know I fear whatever the devs do the damage done to the community trust and the STO name can't be repaired.
Well, give time to time
I'm not in the US zonetime but i guess its night-time there and, unless Cryptic are zombies and go to work in the middle of the night you'll have to wait at least till tomorow morning workable USA hours to get a first answer.
As I guess the Dev team would have first to brainstorm before posting anything related to a matter of this amplitude.
This thread is somewhat a lot different to deal with than from asking funny videos to fleets, and really here I'd like to get a constructive anwser from an entire team than a man alone without backup.
Now don't get me wrong here; you may track my posts through this thread and see how much I'm concerned bout the endless grind, the no fun way the game has become for small fleeters, and the ridiculous amount of reward we feel having for the immensly requiring projects.
I'm really this close to quit the game and am sick that I had gone for a LTS seeing the way things are now.
Tho don't get me wrong, but give that to the man and the team to have a chance of doing their job.
There is no way they haven't stated about this thread yet, even on a personal matter if so.
And I'm sure they 'll come with at least a first anwser to the matter by tomorow AKA noon Europe time.
And I +10000 the idea of a scaling system , as some really good suggestions has now come out. See post above.
So here's a first pass at a reasonably non-exploitable fleet scaling system.
Fleets are grouped into the following five sizes:
Very Small (1-25)
Small (26-50)
Medium (51-100)
Large (101-200)
Vary Large (201-500)
The number of members in a fleet is determined by the number of characters in the fleet over a seven-day period. (I.e., any time a character leaves a fleet, that character slot is 'reserved' and not freed up for seven days. This keeps churn down, but allows the same character to come back within the seven day period without counting twice.)
The fleet leader can change the size of the fleet at any time. Downgrading to a smaller fleet size is free (as long as the number of fleet members is below the max of the new size). Upgrading to a larger fleet size causes the loss of one tier. You lose any improvements that requires the tier you lost. You downgrade to the bottom of the lower tier. Example: Your Medium fleet has a tier IV starbase, with tier IV shipyard, tier II industrial fabricator and tier IV communications array, with 10000 Starbase XP, 140000 Military XP, 50000 Engineering XP and 110000 Science XP. After you upgrade your fleet to Large, you would have a tier III starbase, with tier III shipyard, tier II industrial fabricator, and tier III communications array, with 8000 Starbase XP, 50000 Military XP, 25000 Engineering XP and 50000 Science XP. If you decide to upgrade right there to Very Large, you'd go down to a tier II starbase with tier II shipyard, tier I industrial fabricator, and tier II communicatinos array, with 5000 Starbase XP, 25000 Military XP, 10000 Engineering XP and 25000 Science XP.
At the time of conversion, all fleets are automatically Very Large, and it's up to the leaders to downgrade as desired.
Now this is where the scaling comes in. Smaller fleets pay less resources for their projects, but they take longer, and in the case of projects that create provisions, they create fewer provisions for the fleet. Here are the scaling factors.
Very Small: 20% resource cost, 200% time requirement, 20% provisions
Small: 40% resource cost, 150% time requirement, 40% provisions
Medium: 60% resource cost, 125% time requirement, 60% provisions
Large: 80% resource cost, 110% time requirement, 80% provisions
Very Large: 100% resource cost, 100% time requirement, 100% provisions
These scaling factors have two effects: 1) they make it affordable for a small fleet to work on fleet projects while ensuring that a large fleet that has the resources will always be faster and 2) the limitation on provisioning makes it impractical to build up a very small fleet starbase and use it to serve the needs of a large fleet by rotating members through.
I support the above. With one addition:
Make Fleet Membership ACCOUNT WIDE. If I join x Fleet with one of my characters, ALL my characters under the same @handle should be a member of that fleet. That way, you don't end up having a Fleet of 50 main characters, and 450 alts.
The way "Guild Membership" works in for example Guild Wars 2, is that you are constantly a member of every guild you join, and you can join as many guilds as you want. From there, you "champion" a specific guild, which means you are representing that guild with their name/tag, as well as having access to their guild perks. I realize a similar method may be difficult to implement into "Star Trek Grind Online" in terms of Fleet Starbases.
ok ill prob get banned for this but because of the amount of bug's and unfixed bugs I don't play much anymore anyway and due to lack of content take a look at what STO shud have been like when perpetual entainment had it http://www.suricatafx.com/?p=332
ok ill prob get banned for this but because of the amount of bug's and unfixed bugs I don't play much anymore anyway and due to lack of content take a look at what STO shud have been like when perpetual entainment had it http://www.suricatafx.com/?p=332
ok ill prob get banned for this but because of the amount of bug's and unfixed bugs I don't play much anymore anyway and due to lack of content take a look at what STO shud have been like when perpetual entainment had it http://www.suricatafx.com/?p=332
Funny enough that base character model looks BETTER than most character models currently in STO, clothing included.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
This is just like the Dilithium changes at launch of S7, when they were lying to us beforehand about them supposedly not going in.
They made this change to force people to play fleet events. Any time you have to force your players to play a part of the game, you're TRIBBLE up as a developer. They don't realize that people don't play fleet events because they're not as fun, they segregate KDF players from Fed players, and they're poor risk vs. reward.
They're not doing their job as developers if they have to make these changes to force us to play parts of the game we don't want.
This just further solidifies the fact (in my mind) that they care only about revenue. They don't really care about Star Trek, or STO. If they did, they wouldn't be treating it like a cash cow.
The only thing they understand is when we cause a sh*tstorm on the forums.
This is just like the Dilithium changes at launch of S7, when they were lying to us beforehand about them supposedly not going in.
They made this change to force people to play fleet events. Any time you have to force your players to play a part of the game, you're TRIBBLE up as a developer. They don't realize that people don't play fleet events because they're not as fun, they segregate KDF players from Fed players, and they're poor risk vs. reward.
They're not doing their job as developers if they have to make these changes to force us to play parts of the game we don't want.
This just further solidifies the fact (in my mind) that they care only about revenue. They don't really care about Star Trek, or STO. If they did, they wouldn't be treating it like a cash cow.
The only thing they understand is when we cause a sh*tstorm on the forums.
even the they don't understand why we cause a SH*tstorm because to them they are doing nothing wrong, but hear hear pal
This is just like the Dilithium changes at launch of S7, when they were lying to us beforehand about them supposedly not going in.
They made this change to force people to play fleet events. Any time you have to force your players to play a part of the game, you're TRIBBLE up as a developer. They don't realize that people don't play fleet events because they're not as fun, they segregate KDF players from Fed players, and they're poor risk vs. reward.
They're not doing their job as developers if they have to make these changes to force us to play parts of the game we don't want.
This just further solidifies the fact (in my mind) that they care only about revenue. They don't really care about Star Trek, or STO. If they did, they wouldn't be treating it like a cash cow.
The only thing they understand is when we cause a sh*tstorm on the forums.
Great statement,I wish we get this resolved soon. My small fleet has only a few active members which contribute and fleet marks have stopped. I tried a few fleet missions, good god they are boring and give very little reward. Shoot kill repeat, at least with the FM from the founarys I played the mission type I wanted not was forced on me.
Where ever you go, there you are.......
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
Voicing my opinion that this horse is long dead many times over and the thread no longer serves any purpose.
It should be closed.
I respectfully disagree. This horse has been drawn, quartered, stomped, mutilated, defaced, humiliated, dragged, shat upon, and defiled. But is far from dead. The issues in this thread have been stated several times by many different people and agreed upon by almost everyone. Just because nothing new has been brought to the table does not mean it's dead. Nothing new can be said or brought to the table until there is an official response from DStahl. Only he has the power to grant mercy and put this horse to rest! Until such a time...... Stop the Farm. Bring Back the Fun!
It's amazing, that with all that is going on, Stahl makes a thread asking people to post Harlem Shake videos.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Comments
I can't speak for anyone else, but I posted my plan not because I thought there was any chance that Cryptic would implement it, but just to demonstrate that it's not that hard to make a system that would be difficult to exploit.
Unfortunately, there would be a workaround on this one. Larger fleet Commanders would simply cut loose their non productive or less productive members in favor of cheaper projects. If given the opportunity; I fear a good portion would bite at the chance. If you have a 100 man fleet,but only 20 contribute the majority, it would be in their best interest to let the others go,and allow the highly productive members to work a little less to get way more.
But I concede your point,there are certainly more than the two options Dan gave us. PWE just doesn't want you to think there may be more options available.
But I don't think they are allowed to spend time doing it by the "overlords" in charge of the game.
If the "overlords" would just take a little time from their "vision" of "farming" the players (aka customers) for every single penny of money we have and address the real problems of the game, they would reap an amazimg amount of long term profit from a STABLE and ENJOYABLE game platform for years!
We, the players (aka customers) are here because we love Star Trek!
We don't love FARMING or bad/no content, or a game that feels like another JOB!
PWE/Cryptic Stop the FARM, Bring back the FUN!
Zeus
Hopefully something constructive will come out of Cryptic today.
that would work XD
There would still need to be other changes made, I think, especially since from what I've gathered, the majority of Level 50's haven't pushed their DOFFs as far as I have on my main and achieved the maximum tier in all categories. However, I think that it would be a useful improvement, especially since you can do your DOFF assignments while you have fun on other aspects of the game.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
This is so beyond just FMs now. Honestly, I think you are finally seeing months of pent up frustration hitting the breaking point. Even if PW decided to reinstate FMs into foundry missions,or they added more to the events, I would have to respond with "Sorry,not good enough anymore." And I feel that there would be quite a few players standing side by side with me on that.
We are not the contents of our wallets. Our voices will be heard, or our silence will be deafening.
Am I the only one? :rolleyes:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=558451&highlight=content
about 30 minutes ago.
I guess you should at least give him time to read this thread
Watch out for my Starship Comparator app at
http://ssc.levega.de or http://www.stoshipcompare.tk
Devs - "Mr Stahl, we need to address these issues, the forums are getting out of hand and quite frankly I think we are doing something wrong to the Star Trek intellectual property"
Stahl - *Gives the Dev a stern look and begins to do the Harlem Shuffle*
lol, yep, just dont forget to take your union breaks ok
Still say just revert the changes made in the Valantine Day Massacre Patch to the fleet marks, but as stated earlier its become more now.
This could have been nipped in the bud a lot earlier, know I fear whatever the devs do the damage done to the community trust and the STO name can't be repaired.
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
As someone else who proposed a scaling fleet system, I support this. I thought of the provision amount reductions yesterday but didn't feel like posting.
Couple points:
- When (if) implemented, fleet leader makes a one time size call with no penalties. Afterwards follows the system as outlined, otherwise penalizes fleets that were always small.
- Resource costs on a per person basis should favour larger fleets (more hands, less work), so your percentages may need to be adjusted.
Another idea I had for a scaled system:
Only Fleet marks earned while a member of the fleet would be contributable to that fleets' projects.
This should stop fleet mark "purchasing". All other inputs are "exploitable".
Thanks again for your post.
Well, give time to time
I'm not in the US zonetime but i guess its night-time there and, unless Cryptic are zombies and go to work in the middle of the night you'll have to wait at least till tomorow morning workable USA hours to get a first answer.
As I guess the Dev team would have first to brainstorm before posting anything related to a matter of this amplitude.
This thread is somewhat a lot different to deal with than from asking funny videos to fleets, and really here I'd like to get a constructive anwser from an entire team than a man alone without backup.
Now don't get me wrong here; you may track my posts through this thread and see how much I'm concerned bout the endless grind, the no fun way the game has become for small fleeters, and the ridiculous amount of reward we feel having for the immensly requiring projects.
I'm really this close to quit the game and am sick that I had gone for a LTS seeing the way things are now.
Tho don't get me wrong, but give that to the man and the team to have a chance of doing their job.
There is no way they haven't stated about this thread yet, even on a personal matter if so.
And I'm sure they 'll come with at least a first anwser to the matter by tomorow AKA noon Europe time.
And I +10000 the idea of a scaling system , as some really good suggestions has now come out. See post above.
I support the above. With one addition:
Make Fleet Membership ACCOUNT WIDE. If I join x Fleet with one of my characters, ALL my characters under the same @handle should be a member of that fleet. That way, you don't end up having a Fleet of 50 main characters, and 450 alts.
The way "Guild Membership" works in for example Guild Wars 2, is that you are constantly a member of every guild you join, and you can join as many guilds as you want. From there, you "champion" a specific guild, which means you are representing that guild with their name/tag, as well as having access to their guild perks. I realize a similar method may be difficult to implement into "Star Trek Grind Online" in terms of Fleet Starbases.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Online_(Perpetual_Entertainment)
Funny enough that base character model looks BETTER than most character models currently in STO, clothing included.
I know right
They made this change to force people to play fleet events. Any time you have to force your players to play a part of the game, you're TRIBBLE up as a developer. They don't realize that people don't play fleet events because they're not as fun, they segregate KDF players from Fed players, and they're poor risk vs. reward.
They're not doing their job as developers if they have to make these changes to force us to play parts of the game we don't want.
This just further solidifies the fact (in my mind) that they care only about revenue. They don't really care about Star Trek, or STO. If they did, they wouldn't be treating it like a cash cow.
The only thing they understand is when we cause a sh*tstorm on the forums.
even the they don't understand why we cause a SH*tstorm because to them they are doing nothing wrong, but hear hear pal
Great statement,I wish we get this resolved soon. My small fleet has only a few active members which contribute and fleet marks have stopped. I tried a few fleet missions, good god they are boring and give very little reward. Shoot kill repeat, at least with the FM from the founarys I played the mission type I wanted not was forced on me.
Join The Space Invaders,..... Federation and KDF fleets.
It should be closed.
I respectfully disagree. This horse has been drawn, quartered, stomped, mutilated, defaced, humiliated, dragged, shat upon, and defiled. But is far from dead. The issues in this thread have been stated several times by many different people and agreed upon by almost everyone. Just because nothing new has been brought to the table does not mean it's dead. Nothing new can be said or brought to the table until there is an official response from DStahl. Only he has the power to grant mercy and put this horse to rest! Until such a time...... Stop the Farm. Bring Back the Fun!
If you had it your way, we still wouldn't have any dilithium rewards in STFs.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind