The only nerf I've seen people seriously suggest for the bug is to reduce it's turn rate to a point where it is still the best of any escort.
Right now the bug is equal or better than every escort in every respect except for the number of science consoles. No one has suggested changing that, just reducing it's turn rate to 17 or 18.
Except for the JHAS and the Wells, ships of a certain class have turn rates withing a certain range. Cruisers range from 6-8, Science Vessels 11-13, and Escorts are 16-17. As long as ships fall into those narrow ranges, their turn rate isn't compensated by a significant difference in other areas. The Assault Cruiser and Star Cruiser for example are nearly carbon-copies of one another in most ways despite the Assault cruiser being more maneuverable.
The Bug is broken because it is a best-in-class escort in every other way, but with far better turning than any other escort. "Nerfing" it's turn down to 17 would still leave the bug equal to or better than every other escort. Similarly,the Wells should probably have it's turn rate brought in line with science ships at around 13.
Alternatively, if other escorts were buffed into the the JHAS's class that might help, but it the turn rates for escorts were buffed up to 19-20 instead of 15-16, and science ships up to 13-15 instead of 11-13, then every other ship in the game would need turn rates increased too. It seems more sane to just make the JHAS turn like an escort, and the Wells turn like a science ship.
only the turn rate you have seen suggested?
I have seen some who say nerf the turn rate,,,the shield mod,,,the impulse mod, the Boff layout ect ect....they want everything on this ship nerfed. If they dont want to buff the other escorts than no i wouldnt throw a fit if they just bumped the jem bug down 2 points in turn rate.
Car companies do not come and take your car then downgrade it and give it back,,they simply keep making better models but they dont "nerf" the one you invested in after you bought it.
I have seen some who say nerf the turn rate,,,the shield mod,,,the impulse mod, the Boff layout ect ect....they want everything on this ship nerfed. If they dont want to buff the other escorts than no i wouldnt throw a fit if they just bumped the jem bug down 2 points in turn rate.
The turn rate has been the one that has been suggested over and over. Everything else about the JHAS is "better" but not so much so that it renders everything else obsolete. Take away the difference in turning and then the comparison is a lot more like when you compare one escort against another. Yeah, maybe the Patrol Escort is better than the Tactical Refit (or visa versa), but they are in the same league.
Car companies do not come and take your car then downgrade it and give it back,,they simply keep making better models but they dont "nerf" the one you invested in after you bought it.
No, but if your car goes 300 MPH and you insist on driving it at that speed despite the 100 MPH speed limit, the police will come to your house and take your car (and license) away.
No, but if your car goes 300 MPH and you insist on driving it at that speed despite the 100 MPH speed limit, the police will come to your house and take your car (and license) away.
WTF does that have to do with anything i just said?
This isnt just for jem bug,,im against them doing that with any ship,,,how would all the "vesta peeps" feel after spending money to get vestas if STO turned around next week and nerfed all of them?
WTF does that have to do with anything i just said?
This isnt just for jem bug,,im against them doing that with any ship,,,how would all the "vesta peeps" feel after spending money to get vestas if STO turned around next week and nerfed all of them?
As a Vesta owner, I wouldn't mind it too much, TBH. The amount of CC the ship can field through pets lets it vastly exceed the capabilities of other Sci ships. The day they improve or strengthen Science powers, they'll start to more fully eclipse other Sci ships in their primary role than they already do.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
imo, the impulse modifier and turnrate aren't the problem. Cryptic failing to consider the implications of giving it Cruiser stats on top of it's superior Escort stats is.
Personally, i like the mirror patrol consoles better... that's just me. And on a side note any good Jem'Hadar Attack Ship pilot can hop in any old escort and beat the qq'rs to begin with. For instance i took my mirror patrol in a couple games several days ago...i got nearly the most damage and the most healing out of 5-6 escorts in the game from both teams. You dont need a jemmy to do damage..all you need is a escort, point it and shoot.
Nevertheless with the amount of time some people spend playing you can easily buy the ship for yourself...or better yet pick up the mirror patrol it uses the same boff layout as 90 percent of the Jem pilots do.
As a Vesta owner, I wouldn't mind it too much, TBH. The amount of CC the ship can field through pets lets it vastly exceed the capabilities of other Sci ships. The day they improve or strengthen Science powers, they'll start to more fully eclipse other Sci ships in their primary role than they already do.
I like my Vesta, but I feel the same --the pets are a bit much since the Vesta doesn't sacrifice anything for them. Even without them it's a powerful ship. Basically the only thing making the Vesta okay is that science vessels in general are crappy right now.
I like my Vesta, but I feel the same --the pets are a bit much since the Vesta doesn't sacrifice anything for them. Even without them it's a powerful ship. Basically the only thing making the Vesta okay is that science vessels in general are crappy right now.
It pretty much boils down to whether or not you want pets and DHC's (Vesta) or top-flight turn rate and survivability (Wells), and then you start looking at the other Sci ships if either of those aren't appealing or in the budget.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
I find the "i have spend money, so they can't nerf it argument flawed". I have spend hundreds of dollars for former C-Store ships, all of them now being obsolete, mainly thanks to trash-box ships, such as the abominable bug.
In case of Nebula, the tachyon grid console originally provided sensor buff that affected many more powers except for useless sensors resist now. But it was changed (see nerfed) with the skill revamp.
So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".
With what I've observed, it seems like he'd be the first person to get the new OP ship and you'd be the first to whine about it being even more better than your previously obsoleted ships.
Personally, the gaps between Recluse and the Wells for their respective roles is substantially larger than the gap between the bug and the rest of the escorts.
I like my Vesta, but I feel the same --the pets are a bit much since the Vesta doesn't sacrifice anything for them. Even without them it's a powerful ship. Basically the only thing making the Vesta okay is that science vessels in general are crappy right now.
What makes the Vesta (and the Wells) a great ship is the Ltc Uni.
The Wells does it better, with a stronger shield mod, better hull, the most amazing turn rate on any Sci ship and the ability to go full on healing through uni boff stations and an incredibly powerful console.
The sum of those abilities far outweigh the advantages the Vesta has with regards to (Aux) DHCs, Pets and multiple toy consoles (although I'm a big fan of Fermion Field).
(I'm not saying you were wrong anywhere, just reinforcing that the issue with lockbox ships is not limited to the JHAS.)
What makes the Vesta (and the Wells) a great ship is the Ltc Uni.
The Wells does it better, with a stronger shield mod, better hull, the most amazing turn rate on any Sci ship and the ability to go full on healing through uni boff stations and an incredibly powerful console.
The sum of those abilities far outweigh the advantages the Vesta has with regards to (Aux) DHCs, Pets and multiple toy consoles (although I'm a big fan of Fermion Field).
(I'm not saying you were wrong anywhere, just reinforcing that the issue with lockbox ships is not limited to the JHAS.)
The Wells has Turn Rate, Shield Mod (1.45, best of all ships in STO), and base hull as an edge over the Vesta.
LTC+LT Uni vs LTC+ENS unit leads to different, but similarly useful bridge officer arrangements, a wash for the most part, IME.
The Vesta has the edge firepower (can load cannons), the potential to field more powerful sci skills (5 Sci console arrangement), and has an expanded arsenal of science powers which are, for better or worse, agnostic of its console arrangement care of its pets. It's probably the only C-Store ship that could be argued to be on the same plain in terms of mechanical capability as its lockbox brethren.
Now what would be better is if they gave the Wells the Hull it *should* have to offset that monster shield capacity and turn rate... say around 18k base. :P
[EDIT]
If the above seems nonsensical, just chalk it up to too much coffee and not enough sleep, then carry on with QQ'ing or not QQ"ing about the JHAS as you see fit.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
I find the "i have spend money, so they can't nerf it argument flawed". I have spend hundreds of dollars for former C-Store ships, all of them now being obsolete, mainly thanks to trash-box ships, such as the abominable bug.
In case of Nebula, the tachyon grid console originally provided sensor buff that affected many more powers except for useless sensors resist now. But it was changed (see nerfed) with the skill revamp.
So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".
If they bring better ships out so be it,,,this is the same analogy with cars,,,they WILL make a better car each and every year,,,but dont come and take MY car that i worked for and downgrade it then give it back, you understand now?
I'm getting a litte tired about this topic, so lets made some points clear. This ship need a balance is right, but not as hard as all the QQ are screaming
I will quote one of the qq'ers post for make this easy:
The Jem'hadar attack ship is the only special ship that don't have any unique console/weapon/Ability (galor, d'kora, tholian orb, tholian recluse, temporal ships, etc...all of them have something "special"), so what can they add to the ship for make it interesting? stats.
1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort
2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".
3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.
4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.
5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.
And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it.
There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible
All escorts are op'd, regardless of which type. For their size, speed, and manuverability, they should not be able to take the damage they do. And in the case of the cloakable ships, get rid of that combat cloak ability. Its its bad enough these things move faster than any other ship, and do more damage. They should not have the ability to run away whenever they choose.
I REALLY have to question that assertion, as there ARE Jem pilots here who insist that it's not OP because they get beaten...in the JHAS.
Seems to me that, all other stats and such being equal, a JHAS should be mopping the floor with every other escort out there (along with cruisers, sci ships, raiders etc.) just on the base of the thing's basic stats, including high impulse mod, 5 tac consoles, BOP maneuverability and Cruiser shielding (along with the Uni stations it also carries).
So here's what I see-if I'm killing a Jem bug by using my Bird of Prey, that Bug-driver would be dead meat in a Bird of Prey, or a Raptor, or any of the Fedscorts.
If I'm getting CLOSE to killing him, then he's probably not skilled enough to fly anything with lesser stats-maybe as a result of having the enormous crutch of a ship that is significantly OP from the get-go.
IF he's not taking down two or more in a pass, or if he's having trouble taking me or another BoP driver out, then he'd be pretty helpless in anything else.
It's only when a Bug Driver's taking down OTHER bug drivers on a regular basis, that I'm inclined to believe he's as good as he thinks he is.
See, I see it as the problem of the Bitchin' Camaro-(or the Ferrari driver)-probably not competent to make a run in anything LESS perfect, and I've seen this with certan former fleetmates-the same person who actively avoids PvP in a Raptor or BoP, yet fails to outperforme someone as mediocre as myself. The gear doesn't make you good, it just makes it easy-and easy doesn't make you any better.
The Jem'bug is an EASY MODE ship, as such it weakens your skills when you use it too extensively because 'Everything is easy with a Bugship."
But as I continue to maintain-dont' nerf it. What it needs, is competitors so that that 'easy mode' condition no longer persists, and a true "Elite" position matching the rhetoric can actually be obtained.
I think your using some false logic to back up your argument.
Firstly-That fifth tac console means absolutely nothing to your dps...and most "Pilots" will tell you that.
Secondly-If your "almost" bringing down a bug with your bop, then you're either a spike bop or a person that is simply better than that bug pilot. I wouldn't make the assumption that you "almost" killed him in a bug that you'd definitely kill him in any other ship.
Sure the ship gives you an edge, ships in this game are like consoles, even though they may be the same "tier" they have different values of worth to individuals.
But in all honesty i haven't seen a non spike bop take out a good escort pilot in a while... without help at least.
Seriously people, stop the nonsense. Bottomline the JHAS is the best escort. If you have one, good. If you do not have one that is good as well. The JHAS can be destroyed in PVP. It is not the Leet of elite ships. PVP is a team event. If you want to be elite then be a team player. May we now move onto other things?
If thats how you interpreted what i said, then i feel sad for you. Any body can be good in any ship.
No where in that short snippet did i say YOU CAN ONLY BE GOOD IN THE JEM'HADAR ATTACK SHIP.
Ignorance is bliss.
My point was there are plenty of good pilots out there in many different ships but noone has ever faced one and said that the Galaxy is OP or the Defiant is OP or that the Raptor is OP, Nebula, etc.
The only ship that anyone ever complained about was the BoP back during the first 2 Seasons because of it's diversity and there was no other ship like it but even then, it still had it's drawbacks and only good pilots unlock their potential and even a good cruiser pilot could kill a stubborn BoP.
The JHAS is training wheels for PvP noobs with big wallets and unlimited EC's from endless PvE grinding. Even those puggers can still be competative, if not effective.
Good Bug pilots in a coordinated premade are both the shield and the spear.
The bug was barely tolerable when only a small handfull of people had it. Since it's twice-reintroduction, they're now littering the battlefield.
Giving more people the opportunity to aquire a JHAS is not a good way to balance PvP, imo.
Seriously people, stop the nonsense. Bottomline the JHAS is the best escort. If you have one, good. If you do not have one that is good as well. The JHAS can be destroyed in PVP. It is not the Leet of elite ships. PVP is a team event. If you want to be elite then be a team player. May we now move onto other things?
My point was there are plenty of good pilots out there in many different ships but noone has ever faced one and said that the Galaxy is OP or the Defiant is OP or that the Raptor is OP, Nebula, etc.
The only ship that anyone ever complained about was the BoP back during the first 2 Seasons because of it's diversity and there was no other ship like it but even then, it still had it's drawbacks and only good pilots unlock their potential and even a good cruiser pilot could kill a stubborn BoP.
The JHAS is training wheels for PvP noobs with big wallets and unlimited EC's from endless PvE grinding. Even those puggers can still be competative, if not effective.
Good Bug pilots in a coordinated premade are both the shield and the spear.
The bug was barely tolerable when only a small handfull of people had it. Since it's twice-reintroduction, they're now littering the battlefield.
Giving more people the opportunity to aquire a JHAS is not a good way to balance PvP, imo.
Let me get this straight, basically your saying in so many words that if someone in a bug gets killed their a noob right?
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
All you have to do is target, and kill the players flying the Jem'Hadar bug ships in PVP. Once they retreat or are destroyed, then switch your focus to someone else until they come back into play. They're the best escorts in the game, and need to be killed quickly or forced to retreat. Do this along with staying close together within range, and heal each other, and you'll do much better.
Comments
only the turn rate you have seen suggested?
I have seen some who say nerf the turn rate,,,the shield mod,,,the impulse mod, the Boff layout ect ect....they want everything on this ship nerfed. If they dont want to buff the other escorts than no i wouldnt throw a fit if they just bumped the jem bug down 2 points in turn rate.
Car companies do not come and take your car then downgrade it and give it back,,they simply keep making better models but they dont "nerf" the one you invested in after you bought it.
No, but if your car goes 300 MPH and you insist on driving it at that speed despite the 100 MPH speed limit, the police will come to your house and take your car (and license) away.
WTF does that have to do with anything i just said?
This isnt just for jem bug,,im against them doing that with any ship,,,how would all the "vesta peeps" feel after spending money to get vestas if STO turned around next week and nerfed all of them?
As a Vesta owner, I wouldn't mind it too much, TBH. The amount of CC the ship can field through pets lets it vastly exceed the capabilities of other Sci ships. The day they improve or strengthen Science powers, they'll start to more fully eclipse other Sci ships in their primary role than they already do.
Nevertheless with the amount of time some people spend playing you can easily buy the ship for yourself...or better yet pick up the mirror patrol it uses the same boff layout as 90 percent of the Jem pilots do.
It pretty much boils down to whether or not you want pets and DHC's (Vesta) or top-flight turn rate and survivability (Wells), and then you start looking at the other Sci ships if either of those aren't appealing or in the budget.
In case of Nebula, the tachyon grid console originally provided sensor buff that affected many more powers except for useless sensors resist now. But it was changed (see nerfed) with the skill revamp.
So dear maximus614 It already happened before, so cut the drama. Eventually there will be ships that make your precious bug obsolete, and when it happens, remember me and "enjoy" the feeling of "I have spend money, but Cryptic no longer cares".
Personally, the gaps between Recluse and the Wells for their respective roles is substantially larger than the gap between the bug and the rest of the escorts.
What makes the Vesta (and the Wells) a great ship is the Ltc Uni.
The Wells does it better, with a stronger shield mod, better hull, the most amazing turn rate on any Sci ship and the ability to go full on healing through uni boff stations and an incredibly powerful console.
The sum of those abilities far outweigh the advantages the Vesta has with regards to (Aux) DHCs, Pets and multiple toy consoles (although I'm a big fan of Fermion Field).
(I'm not saying you were wrong anywhere, just reinforcing that the issue with lockbox ships is not limited to the JHAS.)
The Wells has Turn Rate, Shield Mod (1.45, best of all ships in STO), and base hull as an edge over the Vesta.
LTC+LT Uni vs LTC+ENS unit leads to different, but similarly useful bridge officer arrangements, a wash for the most part, IME.
The Vesta has the edge firepower (can load cannons), the potential to field more powerful sci skills (5 Sci console arrangement), and has an expanded arsenal of science powers which are, for better or worse, agnostic of its console arrangement care of its pets. It's probably the only C-Store ship that could be argued to be on the same plain in terms of mechanical capability as its lockbox brethren.
Now what would be better is if they gave the Wells the Hull it *should* have to offset that monster shield capacity and turn rate... say around 18k base. :P
[EDIT]
If the above seems nonsensical, just chalk it up to too much coffee and not enough sleep, then carry on with QQ'ing or not QQ"ing about the JHAS as you see fit.
If they bring better ships out so be it,,,this is the same analogy with cars,,,they WILL make a better car each and every year,,,but dont come and take MY car that i worked for and downgrade it then give it back, you understand now?
All escorts are op'd, regardless of which type. For their size, speed, and manuverability, they should not be able to take the damage they do. And in the case of the cloakable ships, get rid of that combat cloak ability. Its its bad enough these things move faster than any other ship, and do more damage. They should not have the ability to run away whenever they choose.
I think your using some false logic to back up your argument.
Firstly-That fifth tac console means absolutely nothing to your dps...and most "Pilots" will tell you that.
Secondly-If your "almost" bringing down a bug with your bop, then you're either a spike bop or a person that is simply better than that bug pilot. I wouldn't make the assumption that you "almost" killed him in a bug that you'd definitely kill him in any other ship.
Sure the ship gives you an edge, ships in this game are like consoles, even though they may be the same "tier" they have different values of worth to individuals.
But in all honesty i haven't seen a non spike bop take out a good escort pilot in a while... without help at least.
Soooo what you're saying is nobody in STO knows how to fly any other ship than the JHAS?
Although I do agree with the sentiment that people who rely on the JHAS are only hurting themselves by letting the ship do most of the work for them.
If thats how you interpreted what i said, then i feel sad for you. Any body can be good in any ship.
No where in that short snippet did i say YOU CAN ONLY BE GOOD IN THE JEM'HADAR ATTACK SHIP.
Ignorance is bliss.
My point was there are plenty of good pilots out there in many different ships but noone has ever faced one and said that the Galaxy is OP or the Defiant is OP or that the Raptor is OP, Nebula, etc.
The only ship that anyone ever complained about was the BoP back during the first 2 Seasons because of it's diversity and there was no other ship like it but even then, it still had it's drawbacks and only good pilots unlock their potential and even a good cruiser pilot could kill a stubborn BoP.
The JHAS is training wheels for PvP noobs with big wallets and unlimited EC's from endless PvE grinding. Even those puggers can still be competative, if not effective.
Good Bug pilots in a coordinated premade are both the shield and the spear.
The bug was barely tolerable when only a small handfull of people had it. Since it's twice-reintroduction, they're now littering the battlefield.
Giving more people the opportunity to aquire a JHAS is not a good way to balance PvP, imo.
exactly its not some God mode ship.
Let me get this straight, basically your saying in so many words that if someone in a bug gets killed their a noob right?
Total BS. Fly a Galaxy, then.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
as a longtime galaxy fan i have to agree not every ship can be made op
Sounds about right. If even TJ can cheat death in a Bug, then you really have to be just aweful to get killed in one.