For the Jem'hadar QQ'ers

playhard88

I'm getting a litte tired about this topic, so lets made some points clear. This ship need a balance is right, but not as hard as all the QQ are screaming

I will quote one of the qq'ers post for make this easy:

Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
1- Highest turn-rate of all escorts, excluding raiders.
2- Aside from Escort Carriers, the highest HP of all escorts.
3- Shield Rating of 1, while most other escorts tend to have around 0.9
4- Two universal boff slots
5- 5 tactical console slots
Benefits from Jem'Hadar Space Set

In other words, for an escort the ship has no flaws. Other ships at the very least tend to trade defensive stats for offense or turn rate etc. In this case... it's an OP ship and the whole community knows it.

The Jem'hadar attack ship is the only special ship that don't have any unique console/weapon/Ability (galor, d'kora, tholian orb, tholian recluse, temporal ships, etc...all of them have something "special"), so what can they add to the ship for make it interesting? stats.

1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort

2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".

3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.

4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.

5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.

And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it.

There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible

adaephondelat

playhard88 wrote: »

2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".

3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.

Other escorts may stack 1 or two field generators and use two console slots. The JHAS stacks one or none and has the same amount of shield and uses the 4 eng slots for neutronium, rcs or special consoles. With more neutronium the hull does matter suddenly, cause it increases the hull points with its resistance.

snoge00f

Let me guess, your main is a JHAS? :P

The reason no one cries about the Defiant, is because it isn't disproportionately better than any other escort in the game.

Who cares about the extra Tac console when it has the squishy LT ENG boff seating compared to the JHAS.


And lol at the idea that one Sci console is a great handicap for the JHAS.

It has the most damage potential, best boff layout for an Escort, 5 Tac consoles, 4 Eng consoles, best turn rate of Escorts.

There are no drawbacks. There's a reason all premades run JHAS in their setups.


Cryptic, give my Defiant the Patrol Escort config and I'll be happy.

magniacapra

You kind of get the impression that the Bug is suppose to be that much better than the rest... With the rarity/cost (chance to get from lockboxes significantly less than normal) and all.

Wouldn't mind a nerf, maybe some hull reduction and the ensign engineer turned into an ensign tac... (I can smell the tears already.)

Another way to nerf it would be to release more ships with NONE ****TY TURN RATES. If 4 or 6 ships that wheren't shuttles had degrees per second of +40 there would be a lot less QQ'ing.

borgresearcher

obviously you have the jem bug, but stop beeing a child, of course you know nothing about pvp, you talk about shields ? its not shields you want to hit, its the hull dmg that kills the enemie, the shield is just a barrier between that ( of course the jem bug wins with the shield modifier too ) --- the tactical escort has the cloaking device, yeah, the weak one, the console one, wich can be replaced with a field gen or a plating console, much better for pvp huh ? alpha strikes are gone, they suck. so lets not talk about special consoles coz we know most of them are useless.

lets resume this and compare the important numbers:

fleet tactical escort retrofit

---

jem hadar attack ship
hull :33,000

---

34,500
shield mod: 0.9

---

1.0
turn rate: 17

---

20

minor differences ? on the paper yes, but 1.5k more hull, with the player having the "starship structural integrity" skill maxed, which gives you approximatly +13% hull points to the ship, the jem hadar not only benefits from the standard hull points, it benefits too on ALL hull skills based on the hull points, the same happens with the shield modifier and the "shield system" skill, 0,1 doesnt seem that much, but it does, more than 1k shield cap with covariants and "shield systems" maxed, lets not talk about the turn rate, i think you had enough. not to remeber that the jem can use the jem consoles on 1 of its eng console slot ( loosing approximatly 6% hull resis, with 4 purple mk xii plating consoles ), the defiant dont benefit from its extra science console, the shield cap is too low to notice any big difference...

if you still die with the bug in an escort 1vs1 you are doing something wrong...

srspells

heres a good out look a defiant is 20, while the jemmy to get all best gear can rack over 600$ so shouldnt it be the better ship?
-Spells

snoge00f

magniacapra wrote: »

You kind of get the impression that the Big is suppose to be that much better than the rest... With the rarity/cost (chance to get from lockboxes significantly less than normal) and all.

Wouldn't mind a nerf, maybe some hull reduction and the ensign engineer turned into an ensign tac... (I can smell the tears already.)

Another way to nerf it would be to release more ships with NONE ****TY TURN RATES. If 4 or 6 ships that wheren't shuttles had degrees per second of +40 there would be a lot less QQ'ing.

Maybe Cryptic should just buff the other Escorts instead.

For starters, give the Defiant a Patrol Escort config. That's the biggest thing that hurts it, IMO. It is more vulnerable to subnuke than the JHAS because of the lack of RSP. Yeah, I realize it's a team game and you can still be saved, but the JHAS is a bit more self-reliant and less of a drain on the team because of its RSP.

borgresearcher

it should be better and it is better, but people still thinks the bug is not op coz they are nooby pvpers and they still die in combat, the bug is op compared to its class cousins, so stop all this madness, and admit it, its op and you still die on it, but its expensive, and the ship is compensated for that. dont nerf it, things are this way...

buy an armitage or an advanced escort, they are superior to the jem in boff layouts on my opinion, the armitage with the lc eng and hangar and the advanced with lc sci and 5tac consoles, i would go for the fleet advanced escort, and use a fbp2, that should do it against the jem bug

playhard88

borgresearcher wrote: »

obviously you have the jem bug, but stop beeing a child, of course you know nothing about pvp, you talk about shields ? its not shields you want to hit, its the hull dmg that kills the enemie, the shield is just a barrier between that ( of course the jem bug wins with the shield modifier too ) ---.

Escorts survability is 100% about shield tanking and speed/manuvering, if u don't know that, probably is you who need to learn a little bit of PvP, "december 2012 registerd pro PvP player"

borgresearcher wrote: »

it should be better and it is better, but people still thinks the bug is not op coz they are nooby pvpers and they still die in combat, the bug is op compared to its class cousins, so stop all this madness, and admit it, its op and you still die on it

U will die in combat with or without a jem'hadar, with or without an OP ship, that is not the point of this topic, even a full tank/healer crusier can die. OP not means inmortal. If u can't kill a jem'hadar maybe is your fault

mustafatennick

I don't mind the JHAS being superior to everything just don't decloak on one

But now with all these new consoles and dominion additions I do worry for the balance of the game

borgresearcher

we are talking about escorts, 2 players with the same skill, with the same crit luck, but one with the jem, and one with the defiant, the jem definetly wins, thats the point, all ships survability is about shields, like i said, they are the barrier, thats is not questionable, but which, again, i say, jem wins on that

op doesnt mean immortal ? no, it means superior to the standards, which means that 2 equally skilled players, one with standard, and one with op, the op wins, and that means immortality on that pvp

joshmaaaaaaans

Who the **** cares u muggatrons. PVP is just a bolt-on, like when you buy a phone contract and decide you want an additional 250 texts per month, nothing more, no need to be so competitive about it.

Go play DOTA2 if you want to be competitive.

snoge00f

joshmaaaaaaans wrote: »

Who the **** cares u muggatrons. PVP is just a bolt-on, like when you buy a phone contract and decide you want an additional 250 texts per month, nothing more, no need to be so competitive about it.

Go play DOTA2 if you want to be competitive.

Lulz?

DOTA2 is lame****, son. If I wanted to play a fantasy game, I wouldn't be playing this game.

zorena

srspells wrote: »

heres a good out look a defiant is 20, while the jemmy to get all best gear can rack over 600$ so shouldnt it be the better ship?
-Spells

Please introduce deathstar then i pay 1million.

snoge00f

zorandra wrote: »

Please introduce deathstar then i pay 1million.

Yes, please, gimme Deathstar, Cryptic.

borgresearcher

"pvp" and "not competitive" are not related, that would be a mental problematic person

srspells

why not my jemmy cost me 1000$ if u count money, and ec value, but borg cube I would buy it for 2g.
-Spells

buccaneerdtb

joshmaaaaaaans wrote: »

Who the **** cares u muggatrons. PVP is just a bolt-on, like when you buy a phone contract and decide you want an additional 250 texts per month, nothing more, no need to be so competitive about it.

Go play DOTA2 if you want to be competitive.

This is the PvP forum. Most here care. Those who don't care about STO PvP can scroll up to the PvE section. Thanks.

snoge00f

lol 1k.

It is worth much less than that factoring in the cost of keys and how much they go for in EC.

Jesus, you could have spent less than 1k in keys and easily have gotten enough EC to buy it outright.

PT Barnum was right.

srspells

bought t jem both jem ships for consoles then accx3 all around, and all mk 12 consoles.
-Spells

ivantomdisplay

Its not Jemmy ship which is op. But rather pilots who use it right. Same with the most p2w ships and powers.

snoge00f

Then all premades would be just be fine slotting a Defiant into their premade in place of a JHAS when going up against other JHAS, right?

srspells

interesting thing I see more time ships then jemmys.
-Spells

heegoo419

joshmaaaaaaans wrote: »

Who the **** cares u muggatrons. PVP is just a bolt-on, like when you buy a phone contract and decide you want an additional 250 texts per month, nothing more, no need to be so competitive about it.

Go play DOTA2 if you want to be competitive.

Muggatrons?

I can't wrap my head around this one...what exactly is a "muggatron"...

ussultimatum

snoge00f wrote: »

Cryptic, give my Defiant the Patrol Escort config and I'll be happy.

Honestly this is the main factor for me.

The rest of it, is small enough in a team situation to not really matter.


If they had given the Fleet Defiant a universal Ensign or Eng ensign, I think you'd see a lot less QQ about the bug (I'd actually fly one, even at a slight step down in stats just to fly an actual Fed ship).

Unfortunately they decided to give universal Eng ensign only to the Fleet Patrol Escort. (Which was also a let down in that you can no longer run the Adv Escort layout +Module at the Fleet Ship Level - only on the MVAE with the 3rd Tac Ensign).

snoge00f

heegoo419 wrote: »

Muggatrons?

I can't wrap my head around this one...what exactly is a "muggatron"...

Someone who mugs a tron for business or pleasure?

magniacapra

ussultimatum wrote: »

Honestly this is the main factor for me.

The rest of it, is small enough in a team situation to not really matter.


If they had given the Fleet Defiant a universal Ensign or Eng ensign, I think you'd see a lot less QQ about the bug (I'd actually fly one, even at a slight step down in stats just to fly an actual Fed ship).

But then who would fly the patrol escort?

You'd probably cause less problems by giving all Fed escorts +4 to turn rate.

snoge00f

magniacapra wrote: »

But then who would fly the patrol escort?

You'd probably cause less problems by giving all Fed escorts +4 to turn rate.

The people who enjoy it.

I want to fly the iconic ship and not be gimped by it.

+4 turn rate isn't going to give my favorite Escort the best boff seating.

naevius

Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
1- Highest turn-rate of all escorts, excluding raiders.
2- Aside from Escort Carriers, the highest HP of all escorts.
3- Shield Rating of 1, while most other escorts tend to have around 0.9
4- Two universal boff slots
5- 5 tactical console slots
Benefits from Jem'Hadar Space Set

Nerf (1) and (3) and the ship would be reasonable. Especially (1).

antoniosalieri

The only advantage the bug has is the turn rate... thats it. In every other way the fleet ships are a match...

The uni stations are pointless... no one is going to NOT run a sci boff... and why would you put a tack in the other one...

That means there are 2 Possible Bug configurations...

Fleet Escort...

Or dual Sci LT with only one Engi ensign... its fun to mess with but not its in no way a real options...

So its got a fleet escort layout.

Hull means very little to pvp its true... so the extra 1-3k it has there over a couple of the escorts is again no big deal.

Shields NO the bug does not have more shields... yes I won't claim only one sci slot makes the ship terrible or something... but yes it matters. Yes any of the fleet escorts with 2-3 Field gens will have more shielding... and NO neutronium armour is not in anyway a good replacement for that on an escort... one Neut is all you need on any escort or your doing it wrong.

The 5th tac console... nice to have but not unique to the bug... and frankly doesn't add as much real DPS as people seem to think.

Bottom line its better then the other escorts for 9 out of 10 Escort play styles. Sure... but not by the amounts people let on. It has one real advantage... turn rate... and sure it could be taken down one point and still be a fantastic ship. Really thou at the end of the day thats the only real + it has going for it. Well it turns on its proper center and thats just OP. seriously this game has a ton of TRIBBLE turning escorts.

inktomi19

The problem with the JHAS is that it's a Mary Sue ship. I think most people could deal with it being better, but being better than every escort in every way is just too much.

As others have pointed out, the most intolerable aspect of the JHAS is its turn rate. This is because it is significantly better than the other "agile" escorts while also being sturdier and having a better boff layout.

It's also kind of important that some escorts start at a 16 turn rate. They need to be competitive too, so the most agile escorts really can't have more than around 17.