Sounds about right. If even TJ can cheat death in a Bug, then you really have to be just aweful to get killed in one.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. But please continue, i do dip into this thread each morning to get my jollies before heading to work. It's nice to see i don't have to work with all the idiots in the world. - a few have escaped to other countries and thus cant phone me....
Players in jemmies die. If i strap a chimp into one and mimic keyboard bashing to him, Chibo the Chimp is still going to die id the other team want to kill him. A Jemmy might be a superior ship, but only in the hands of people who can use it. They still die to pilots that are either better then them, have more experience then them, or have help doing it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
With Cruiser Hull and resist potential, 22 base turn and superior impulse, that should give any halfway-competant pilot the 3 seconds required to pop one of it's 2 APO's that, now thanks to AP Doffs can pretty much give you indefinite hold immunity, and get out of combat range to heal up.
They are a blight and now there are even more of them. Don't worry, Cryptic won't nerf 'em but at somepoint down the line, they will introduce newer ships either via C-store, LockBox or Fleet that will be more than competative and the people who dumped $100's even $1000's to get a bug, will dump even more for the next best thing.
I'm glad somebody's funding this game but it sends a clear message to Cryptic on how it think's it should run this game rather than how it should be run.
The only good thing about the JHAS is it forces other players to be that much better in the long run.
With Cruiser Hull and resist potential, 22 base turn and superior impulse, that should give any halfway-competant pilot the 3 seconds required to pop one of it's 2 APO's that, now thanks to AP Doffs can pretty much give you indefinite hold immunity, and get out of combat range to heal up.
While the bug may be good, it is by no means invincible. Even with some of the best healers in all of STO backing me up, I still die in my jemmy upon occasion to chained sub-nukes and a large enough damage spike. No ship ins this game is impossible to kill.
I also rather resent that remark about dying in a bug meaning that I'm a really awful player. Challenge my fleet to PvP sometime and you'll see just how awful I am.
PS: Running away from combat is a bad idea: you want to fly defensively, but for goodness' sake, stay in range of the healers. :P
Agreed about the ship not making pilots being invincible. I've flown with some of the best Bug pilots and they can pop just as easily as other good players on lesser ships without the proper support.
And on another note, I'm trying out the Mirror Patrol Escort right now and it's not a bad ship at all. It may be worth messing around in.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. But please continue, i do dip into this thread each morning to get my jollies before heading to work. It's nice to see i don't have to work with all the idiots in the world. - a few have escaped to other countries and thus cant phone me....
Players in jemmies die. If i strap a chimp into one and mimic keyboard bashing to him, Chibo the Chimp is still going to die id the other team want to kill him. A Jemmy might be a superior ship, but only in the hands of people who can use it. They still die to pilots that are either better then them, have more experience then them, or have help doing it.
Exactly.
People also fail to realize when flying the bug you instantly have a bullseye on your back. In the arena i am almost always first to get focus fired on unless i stay way back behind my team and even then soon as they see the ship its not 10-20 seconds and at least 3 people are shooting me.
With Cruiser Hull and resist potential, 22 base turn and superior impulse, that should give any halfway-competant pilot the 3 seconds required to pop one of it's 2 APO's that, now thanks to AP Doffs can pretty much give you indefinite hold immunity, and get out of combat range to heal up.
They are a blight and now there are even more of them. Don't worry, Cryptic won't nerf 'em but at somepoint down the line, they will introduce newer ships either via C-store, LockBox or Fleet that will be more than competative and the people who dumped $100's even $1000's to get a bug, will dump even more for the next best thing.
I'm glad somebody's funding this game but it sends a clear message to Cryptic on how it think's it should run this game rather than how it should be run.
The only good thing about the JHAS is it forces other players to be that much better in the long run.
base 20 not 22
and no cryptic will just nerf everything else in the game.
people want to talkk about op stuff why isnt there a thread in here with anyone complaining about the elite fleet sheilds?
we went up against a premade lastnight and i believe all 5 ships were running them,,,2 of my teamates are excellent pvpers, this team was all from same fleet so if one had them chances are they all did,,,we got waxed 15-0, ive never lost like that with those 2 guys on my team even if we had 2 crappy randoms. so we checked them out,,depending on which one you pick say base 15% resist to phaser/tets/polaron for example,,it stacks 2% 10 times for an additinal 20% now we are at 35% resist, but dont forget ep2s and TSS, after running the numbers my friend said your resist can get up to 65% minimum compared to the maco shields i was running that only have 10% resist to all types, it also can stack up to 20% to whatever energy it doesnt have a base defense from, so if any of this is wrong someone feel free to correct as im trying to learn about those shields cause far as im concerned they are God mode, the first target called lastnight 4 of us went after the guy and we never had him below 60% something is wrong with that picture.
wait another day and the turnrate of the bug will be 24...
btw, you can buy the bug with ingame money too (it was rather cheap, when the bug ship was reintroduced a few months ago).
and some people even sold the duty officer packs, which were containing the bug ship, in the exchange
wait another day and the turnrate of the bug will be 24...
btw, you can buy the bug with ingame money too (it was rather cheap, when the bug ship was reintroduced a few months ago).
and some people even sold the duty officer packs, which were containing the bug ship, in the exchange
Yes i know,,,i sold them too along with keys to buy mine :P
If your cruisers are ending up with 45 to 48k hull after all skills and resistances, I think you need some serious build help.
Most fleet cruisers start at 42k BASE HULLOR HIGHER.
Unless you're talking about RA ships or basic Cstore ships, in which case you should stop because they are clearly not in the same league as Fleet / Lobi / Lockbox ships.
In the grand scheme of things, few thousands of hull hps means nothing.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
It depends on how much hull you had to begin with.
At the low end hull matters a lot, but once you have a certain amount of buffer, it loses it's importance. If you're in either a cruiser or a patrol escort you can survive bleedthrough damage, and have a bit of buffer to heal. Attacks that would insta-kill the patrol escort are likely to do it to the cruiser too.
Something like a BoP can die if you blink at the wrong time, no matter what the shields are like.
I've never really complained about the hull on the JHAS though -- basic escorts are already at the point where more hull wouldn't help them much, so it's not a big advantage for them. My problem with the JHAS has always been that it is best-in-class in every category, and has a turn-rate inconsistent with other escorts. The Wells has a similar problem, but dogfighting ability isn't so crucial on a science ship.
It depends on how much hull you had to begin with.
At the low end hull matters a lot, but once you have a certain amount of buffer, it loses it's importance. If you're in either a cruiser or a patrol escort you can survive bleedthrough damage, and have a bit of buffer to heal. Attacks that would insta-kill the patrol escort are likely to do it to the cruiser too.
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.
I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.
A Fleet Cruiser with 60k hull and 50% resistance (effective 120k hull) + 12K (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 18k facing or 72k 4 pool)
has a better chance to survive such an event compared to
A Destroyer/High Hull Escort with 45k hull and 50% resistance (effective 90k hull) + 9k (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 13.5k facing or 54k pool) .
This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).
My problem with the JHAS has always been that it is best-in-class in every category, and has a turn-rate inconsistent with other escorts. The Wells has a similar problem, but dogfighting ability isn't so crucial on a science ship.
I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.
There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.
My points in this thread have been a few key items:
1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.
2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.
3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.
Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.
I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.
A Fleet Cruiser with 60k hull and 50% resistance (effective 120k hull) + 12K (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 18k facing or 72k 4 pool)
has a better chance to survive such an event compared to
A Destroyer/High Hull Escort with 45k hull and 50% resistance (effective 90k hull) + 9k (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 13.5k facing or 54k pool) .
This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).
I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.
There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.
My points in this thread have been a few key items:
1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.
2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.
3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.
Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
sadly this is more plausible. after all they wont nerf the big money maker but they will nerf the dred to obivian so it "works as intended"
Maybe, from a business stand point, they need to take a look back at the Fleet variants and give them a bit of a boost. None of them really compare and you'll certainly have greater selling opportunities since they are character only.
Normally I'd go with my usual line about how much easier it would be to just address the problem. That doesn't seem likely but since the last patch adjusted some fleet ship stats then maybe they all need a little more. Go ahead and balance the entire tier 5ish roster around a single long standing mistake just so long as issues finally get addressed.
The biggest sticking point for me, and it does relate to balance, is that the iconic ships don't need to be over powered but they can't be allowed to become obsolete.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Maybe, from a business stand point, they need to take a look back at the Fleet variants and give them a bit of a boost. None of them really compare and you'll certainly have greater selling opportunities since they are character only.
Normally I'd go with my usual line about how much easier it would be to just address the problem. That doesn't seem likely but since the last patch adjusted some fleet ship stats then maybe they all need a little more. Go ahead and balance the entire tier 5ish roster around a single long standing mistake just so long as issues finally get addressed.
The biggest sticking point for me, and it does relate to balance, is that the iconic ships don't need to be over powered but they can't be allowed to become obsolete.
I don't have any issues with that direction.
I like the improvements made to some of the fleet ships, and I think they need to tweak more of the fleet ships across the board.
The lockbox ships would always likely have some advantage, but hopefully not to the point that iconic faction ships are "obsolete"**
**(obsolete from a pure min/max pvp viewpoint - for pve the JHAS advantages are largely irrelevant, the Recluse is all but pointless to use from a performance standpoint and the Vesta is easily a better ship to use than the Wells - on top of this a Tac focused Ody is one of, if not the best, damage capable Fed Cruisers for STFs).
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.
I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.
(snip)
Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way. I think a lot of that is because of the three types of tanking, hull-tanking is by far the worst. The ships with the highest hulls maneuver badly, so they are easy to immobilize, and easy for the enemy to focus on one shield against. If anything they seem to pop quicker.
In general I get the impression Cryptic undervalues turning and overvalues both hull and crew when they budget their ship stats (if they even bother trying to budget stats).
This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).
I can have those same setups in a BoP.
And I actually do sometimes run a Vesta with an Lt Cmdr engineering slot, and that is basically just a better cruiser. I miss Aux2SIF 3 a little, but overall it's sturdier (because of it's shields) harder to pin down, and has a much easier time keeping up with team-mates.
I mean I get how powerful the healing BOffs can be, but that's sort of independent of the ship.
I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.
I really haven't had a problem using movement-linked powers in an Intrepid or a Vesta.
I've used a lot of movement-linked sci powers on an MVAM too, but didn't find that ships crazy-high maneuverability a big help onthe science powers (not that it wasn't a big help, but it helped dog-fighting using cannons, not lining up SNBs).
I find that a base-12 turn and engines that add turn are enough for me to use 90-degree abilities, PSW, TBR, and EWP whenever I like. It's not enough for cannon DPS in PvP, but sci powers usually only need to have the target in the arc for a split second.
It's definitely not the same situation as with the JHAS, because nothing about the Wells stops other science ships from doing their job against it, or makes it more difficult for other science ships to defend against it. I guess they are stronger against escorts than other science ships, but against other ship types they really aren't much different than other science ships.
There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.
Except for useless ensigns on some ships, I don't see BOff layouts as something which makes one ship obsolete or not. It's important, but there are ways to make most combinations work very well.
My points in this thread have been a few key items:
1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.
My biggest complaint against Bugs is from when I drive an escort. There is just no point having another escort in a match where there is a bug because he is going to outmaneuver you too much unless he makes some major mistake.
That's the same whether you're solo or on a team -- even on a team escorts need to try and stay out of the 45 degree arc of other escorts, and the JHAS is just going to have more time on target.
My science vessels and cruisers fare about the same against them as against any other escort played similarly.
That difference in maneuver exists fighting BoPs or MVAMs too, but both of those are significantly more fragile than regular escorts, so the slower ship can win by tanking a bit more and just making the best of the windows they get.
2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.
Maybe?
I see a lot of them in PvP, but none of them shift the balance the way the JHAS does.
I wouldn't have a problem with the JHAS being a better escort. It's turn rate is just way out of line with escorts, and turning is the most valuable attribute of escorts.
3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.
Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
I'm not sure that broken ships are helping their bottom line any.
I've bought a lot of ships in the past, but I wouldn't now just because I know that whatever I buy can't compete. Why the heck would I unlock a Fleet Patrol Escort on one character for $20? I like the look of that ship, and I like the BOffs, consoles -- the whole nine yards. But I'd be out $20 and really be no better off than flying the regular tier 5 escort.
It's really the same down the line. I beat fleet ships as often as the regular tier 5 ones.
And Cryptic doesn't even bother trying to balance the game. They have paid ships like the Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X (which are not favorites of mine anyway) which have been broken and near-useless ever since they were introduced. And since a big problem with both of those is their horrible turn-rate, a trait which Cryptic chose to copy in the Odyssey, I don't see a reason to think they will ever try to balance their ships.
I mean, it's easy for Cryptic to see what portion of their revenue is gained from lockboxes. What's harder to see is what portion of their player-base is lost due to particular problems.
Maybe buffing virtually every other ship in the game would be the solution, but that seems silly when the problem is limited to just a couple of ships.
I like the improvements made to some of the fleet ships, and I think they need to tweak more of the fleet ships across the board.
The lockbox ships would always likely have some advantage, but hopefully not to the point that iconic faction ships are "obsolete"**
**(obsolete from a pure min/max pvp viewpoint - for pve the JHAS advantages are largely irrelevant, the Recluse is all but pointless to use from a performance standpoint and the Vesta is easily a better ship to use than the Wells - on top of this a Tac focused Ody is one of, if not the best, damage capable Fed Cruisers for STFs).
Honestly my biggest problem with the lockbox ships is that they are so dramatically over-represented. When I left before there were just a few of them floating around, but now it seems like I have the only Starfleet or KDF ship wherever I am.
You're right about the JHAS not having any real advantage for PvE, though in PvE the general 'escort' advantage is a lot more important. Neither healing or control is anything near as important in PvE as they are in PvP, so any ship that's not an escort takes away from the team.
And if I wasn't feeling bad enough about the game, right now I can't play 3 of my characters because of that bug where every freaking time I fire all my abilities get locked out for 2 minutes. If Cryptic can't get the basics, it's not surprising that they ignore things that are genuinely hard, like balance.
I only do pvp for the dilithium rewards. If that's ever nerfed or taken out, I won't be pvping anymore. The pvp reputation will probably make ships more powerful. So new people first starting out are basically screwed. Their shields will be dropped within 3 seconds, and they'll be easily destroyed. I guess it's similar to other games, the people who have the better gear usually wins. Unless, you're talking about Guild Wars 2 which has structured pvp, everyone has the same stats and gear basically. That could be cool here in STO, where it's all about skill and not gear and consoles.
I only do pvp for the dilithium rewards. If that's ever nerfed or taken out, I won't be pvping anymore. The pvp reputation will probably make ships more powerful. So new people first starting out are basically screwed. Their shields will be dropped within 3 seconds, and they'll be easily destroyed. I guess it's similar to other games, the people who have the better gear usually wins. Unless, you're talking about Guild Wars 2 which has structured pvp, everyone has the same stats and gear basically. That could be cool here in STO, where it's all about skill and not gear and consoles.
This would be great for the game but for their pockets it wouldn't
The cheesefest is probably key to their business which is a crying shame really
----=====This is my opinion you don't have to listen and no one else has to read them these "OPINIONS" are based on my exploits and my learning other people will have their opinions and that's fine just don't knock my way of doing things thanks=====---- :cool:
In general I get the impression Cryptic undervalues turning and overvalues both hull and crew when they budget their ship stats (if they even bother trying to budget stats).
I agree with that.
This is clearly demonstrated when you compare Fed Cruisers vs. KDF Cruisers in design.
Just take a look at the Fleet Negh'var vs. Fleet Galaxy-R, and then look at the Fleet Vor'cha Compared to the Fleet Sovereign (or Excel).
And I actually do sometimes run a Vesta with an Lt Cmdr engineering slot, and that is basically just a better cruiser. I miss Aux2SIF 3 a little, but overall it's sturdier (because of it's shields) harder to pin down, and has a much easier time keeping up with team-mates.
I mean I get how powerful the healing BOffs can be, but that's sort of independent of the ship.
Yes, Sci ships with uni Ltc have basically taken over the Cruiser's role. Unfortunately many Cruiser pilots think their role is the Escort's role. :rolleyes:
I really haven't had a problem using movement-linked powers in an Intrepid or a Vesta.
I've used a lot of movement-linked sci powers on an MVAM too, but didn't find that ships crazy-high maneuverability a big help onthe science powers (not that it wasn't a big help, but it helped dog-fighting using cannons, not lining up SNBs).
Regardless, I think the wells is still clearly top dog.
My biggest complaint against Bugs is from when I drive an escort. There is just no point having another escort in a match where there is a bug because he is going to outmaneuver you too much unless he makes some major mistake.
I'm reading this as if you are assuming you need to be able to go one on one vs. the JHAS when you're in a match on a team.
That's the same whether you're solo or on a team -- even on a team escorts need to try and stay out of the 45 degree arc of other escorts, and the JHAS is just going to have more time on target.
I find that's negotiable, it depends on your healers.
If we're focus firing on a target, I'm not going to suddenly fly around all crazy because 1 escort has me in his front 45.
Maybe buffing virtually every other ship in the game would be the solution, but that seems silly when the problem is limited to just a couple of ships.
This assumes there is a problem with the amount of master keys being sold.
I think it's working as intended by Cryptic, what we might see going forward is more ships like the JHHEC and JHDread - ships that are clear standouts in their PvE ability but not a sudden game changer in PvP.
I'm reading this as if you are assuming you need to be able to go one on one vs. the JHAS when you're in a match on a team.
Not 1-1, just dogfighting.
If the whole team is focusing on the JHAS, but they are depending on my for DPS, I need to be able to keep it lined up.
I find that's negotiable, it depends on your healers.
If we're focus firing on a target, I'm not going to suddenly fly around all crazy because 1 escort has me in his front 45.
You don't need to fly around all crazy to maneuver away from enemy fire, just get out of the front 45. The bigger the difference between your maneuverability and the enemies, the less you need to disrupt your attack run.
And who says it needs to be because just one escort has lined you up? Maybe you're dodging 3 of them?
The point is that the JHAS can maneuver to take less damage much more easily than escorts can, making it less of a burden on the team.
If you bring a JHAS, you are going to have more time on target than an escort, and take less damage.
This assumes there is a problem with the amount of master keys being sold.
Or the number of players. If you drive players away from the game then they don't buy anything.
The players who buy master keys can't be the only ones Cryptic caters to. I don't mind so much if the lockbox stuff remains the best, but other pay ships like the fleet stuff ought to be competitive.
I think it's working as intended by Cryptic, what we might see going forward is more ships like the JHHEC and JHDread - ships that are clear standouts in their PvE ability but not a sudden game changer in PvP.
Maybe. That doesn't mean that existing problems shouldn't be corrected a bit.
There really should be more competitive Starfleet and KDF ships before anything else is added.
The JHAS was the cannon-fodder ship of the Dominion in DS9. So how did its stats get so crazy? That's easy -- just as Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds!
In all seriousness, reducing the bug's turn rate from 20 down to 17 would go a long way towards bringing it in-line with other lockbox ships. The alternative is to start producing new lockbox ships with 20 turn rate + 5 tac console slots. + similar BOFF station layout so that exclusivity of the JHAS stops becoming a problem.
Yet another option: Introduce a new escort class ship with 5 forward weapon mounts!!! yeah right...
The players who buy master keys can't be the only ones Cryptic caters to. I don't mind so much if the lockbox stuff remains the best, but other pay ships like the fleet stuff ought to be competitive.
Its all on the exchange. Just like 5x MK XII purple tac consoles (30 to 60 mill each, 150 mill for a set of 5 at the low end), and MK XII ACCx3 Guns (15 to ??mill each, again a few hundred million invested).
The players who buy master keys can't be the only ones Cryptic caters to. I don't mind so much if the lockbox stuff remains the best, but other pay ships like the fleet stuff ought to be competitive.
Maybe. That doesn't mean that existing problems shouldn't be corrected a bit.
There really should be more competitive Starfleet and KDF ships before anything else is added.
They are competitive, in PvE - Cryptics target market. This game is a PvE focused game, it has PvP. This is the reality we all live in.
I think Cryptic is still trying to find the balance point between "has a clear advantage and therefore promotes MASSIVE SALES" and "pisses off PvP subforums but still promotes MASSIVE SALES".
Because "has a tiny advantage, and promotes WEAK SALES" is clearly not in the strategy when you invest that much artist time into a new ship that is funded solely through one of the very few "micro" transactions this game actually has (a consumable, random one at that).
Here's why Fleet Ships are not toe to toe with lockbox ships: they were never intended to generate massive revenue.
They require ZERO art assets.
All they are, are stats on a spreadsheet. No new art was created, in fact old art was recycled.
What this means is that Fleet Ships were never intended to generate tons of revenue.
It took old favorites, brought them up a notch (required some spreadsheet tweaks at most) - used recycled art, and it promoted the Starbase system.
I'd love it if it weren't true, but I'm not going to spend endless days on the forums crying about it either. (not directed at you, just this sub-forum in general)
I'm not buying any of them, because I dislike the sales strategy presented to me on them.
My options are:
Ships I like but retained BOFF layouts I dislike (Defiant)
Ships I like but will get no discount from my previous Cstore purchase (Fleet Nova, Fleet Saber)
I'm not spending 5 to 20 million on a ship (much less actual money, or a load of dilithium) for a BOFF layout I dislike, when I can just pony up an extra 30 to 60 and get a Mobius (went as low as 50), JHEC (will likely go as low as 50, I got one for 45), Wells (went as low as 34) from the exchange when the price hits rock bottom.
Well, there are other targets, and there is control.
The JHAS is not un-killable, and not solely killable by other JHAS.
It's not unkillable, just harder to kill. A team that has a JHAS is going to need to support it less than they do an escort.
When it's focus fire time, I do exactly that. I rely on the healers to keep me alive.
The only time I go full on defensive maneuvering is when I'm very specifically being focus fired by multiple ships.
And you can do it more effectively than an escort can.
And yet key sales keep rolling out, I really don't know how many players have actually left the game over lockbox ships - no one does.
So it's a tenuous speculation at best, really.
It's not just the lockbox ships, but a lot of things. I played the game when it was new, and it definitely bled subscribers.
Its all on the exchange. Just like 5x MK XII purple tac consoles (30 to 60 mill each, 150 mill for a set of 5 at the low end), and MK XII ACCx3 Guns (15 to ??mill each, again a few hundred million invested).
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
The only serious escort choice is the JHAS, and that would be a problem even if everyone got one for free.
It's as if it's in it's own tier.
They are competitive, in PvE - Cryptics target market. This game is a PvE focused game, it has PvP. This is the reality we all live in.
I think Cryptic is still trying to find the balance point between "has a clear advantage and therefore promotes MASSIVE SALES" and "pisses off PvP subforums but still promotes MASSIVE SALES".
This is why I don't get why a reduction in turn rate would be a problem -- it's barely a relevant characteristic in PvE. I've seen dual cannons on freaking carriers in PvE! NPCs barely manuever at all, and it's usually pretty safe to just pull up to a dead stop a few km away and mash your spacebar.
I'm not sure anyone who doesn't PvP would notice if the JHAS had 17 turn instead of 20 if no one told them.
Alternatively, I could see improving the turn on virtually everything else, but except for the Wells and the JHAS, the ships with 12+ turn rates already seem pretty balanced.
Because "has a tiny advantage, and promotes WEAK SALES" is clearly not in the strategy when you invest that much artist time into a new ship that is funded solely through one of the very few "micro" transactions this game actually has (a consumable, random one at that).
Ships don't need to be overpowered in order to sell well -- look at the Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X. Or the Excelsior for that matter.
Ships like the Vesta and Oddy seem to have sold well too, and while those have some very powerful stuff about them, none of it has made other ships of their class obsolete.
Turn rate is the most important characteristic of escorts. The JHAS went with the baseline (16) and made it 25% better. That would be like a new cruiser with 50k hull or 10 guns. Except for the Wells and the JHAS, changes of that magnitude pretty much don't happen.
I'd like to see the JHAS have it's turn rate brought in line with the current "nimble" escorts at 17, but even if it was 18, that would probably be a lot better. There still wouldn't be a reason for using another escort, but at least the others could be competitive.
Here's why Fleet Ships are not toe to toe with lockbox ships: they were never intended to generate massive revenue.
They require ZERO art assets.
All they are, are stats on a spreadsheet. No new art was created, in fact old art was recycled.
What this means is that Fleet Ships were never intended to generate tons of revenue.
It took old favorites, brought them up a notch (required some spreadsheet tweaks at most) - used recycled art, and it promoted the Starbase system.
If they are offered for sale, Cryptic obviously wants to sell them. They're just bad values.
My point is that if cryptic wants to make money, they need to offer some things that are nearly as good as the lockbox ships.
It's basic sales -- offer a high end model with the very best of everything, then a mid-range model which is "second-best" but at a dramatically reduced price, and then a low-end which costs a little less than the mid-range but with lower specs.
A certain portion of the population will always shell out top dollar to have the very best, and the high price on that makes the price of the mid-range look much more reasonable. The trick is that the second-best has to offer almost as much benefit as the top of the line, otherwise customers just go for whatever is cheapest.
To work with the JHAS, there would need to be some pay ship with stats just a bit below the JHAS. the problem is that all the pay escorts have much reduced stats compared to the JHAS, so they look like bad values. People who already bought one feel suckered, and people who are already using the cheapest option don't have a reason to move up.
Suppose I have a vanilla Patrol Escort -- what reason is there for me to buy another escort?
Maybe the Andorian ship will narrow the gap some, but there are still a half-dozen pay escorts which are TRIBBLE compared to the JHAS.
I'm not buying any of them, because I dislike the sales strategy presented to me on them.
My options are:
Ships I like but retained BOFF layouts I dislike (Defiant)
Ships I like but will get no discount from my previous Cstore purchase (Fleet Nova, Fleet Saber)
I'm getting a litte tired about this topic, so lets made some points clear. This ship need a balance is right, but not as hard as all the QQ are screaming
I will quote one of the qq'ers post for make this easy:
The Jem'hadar attack ship is the only special ship that don't have any unique console/weapon/Ability (galor, d'kora, tholian orb, tholian recluse, temporal ships, etc...all of them have something "special"), so what can they add to the ship for make it interesting? stats.
1 - Yes, is right, defiant have 17 and jemmy have 20. But defiant have the cloacking ability, jem'hadar have no speciall ability. Maybe 18-19 is a good turn rate value for balance, 1 point of BASE TURN rate is a huge diference for and escort
2 - Irrelevant, we all know that escorts survialbly depends 100% on shield tanking and speed, a litle more of hull is totaly irrelevant, that won't make u "OP".
3 - Yes but other escort can (and should) stack 2 o 3 Field generator consoles, in the end the jem'hadar is the escort with less shield in the game.
4 - So? There are plenty of ships in this game with 1 or 2 Universal boffs, and 99% of the jemhadar captians use the same layout as the fleet patrol escort. I see no problem here.
5 - Defiant have 5 too (plus can use the cloack for an deadly alpha strike), and i don't see anybody crying about that.
And what about the wells? is better than any other sci ship in the game and i don't see the QQ Army talking about it.
There are more important issues with pvp balance, so please stop the flood in the balance topics so we can keep them clean as posible
I have no intention of reading all the butthurt and QQ this thread undoubtedly has within its pages.
I do want to say one thing to Playhard88: You sir... are Hired.
You win this debate and life in general. *Award*
You should at least have read the date on the posts.
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
As a bug user. It is slightly OP. I will disagree with the 'A complete noob/idiot can use it' statement. Thats simply not true. Smashed plenty of bugships myself with Kumari's, Fleet patrol scorts and even a voyager ship with no energy weapons and a sci at the helm. Im terrible at sci as well.
If anything, the wells class is more OP, it has higher shields than most cruisers (I had mine upto 14000), the destroyer loads cannons, it has things like backstep which is just a get out of jail free card. The temporal also has real good hull strength and an even more ideal BOff layout. Whilst it doesnt turn on a dime, it still has a good rate (certainly comparable to other escorts) if its kitted right.
No ones mentioned BoPs with BCs shooting torps from cloak that has a 21 base turn though.
Although as we know, should you spot it and give it a stern look, it will explode.:D
It's funny how the most oftenly destroyed ship on screen of ALL Star Trek-dom is unquestionably, hands down, the best ship in the game. Fast, powerful, rugged, and the most maneuverable ship outside of KDF BOPs. Yet in actual Star Trek shows, bugships were destroyed by the handfuls every time they were shown in combat. When you saw them on screen, chances were, they were all destroyed in a matter of seconds.
Bugships in Star Trek made Dominion War era Mirandas look like Sovereigns in terms of ruggedness.
Yet in STO, they are the best ships to get.
The Bugship is a crutch. It makes less competent players really think they're better than they really are, and gives them a totally rude awakening when they try another ship. Even a fine ship like the Akiras. They no longer have the OP stats to prop them up. In the hands of a good player? It's a ridiculous ship.
Comments
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. But please continue, i do dip into this thread each morning to get my jollies before heading to work. It's nice to see i don't have to work with all the idiots in the world. - a few have escaped to other countries and thus cant phone me....
Players in jemmies die. If i strap a chimp into one and mimic keyboard bashing to him, Chibo the Chimp is still going to die id the other team want to kill him. A Jemmy might be a superior ship, but only in the hands of people who can use it. They still die to pilots that are either better then them, have more experience then them, or have help doing it.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
They are a blight and now there are even more of them. Don't worry, Cryptic won't nerf 'em but at somepoint down the line, they will introduce newer ships either via C-store, LockBox or Fleet that will be more than competative and the people who dumped $100's even $1000's to get a bug, will dump even more for the next best thing.
I'm glad somebody's funding this game but it sends a clear message to Cryptic on how it think's it should run this game rather than how it should be run.
The only good thing about the JHAS is it forces other players to be that much better in the long run.
I also rather resent that remark about dying in a bug meaning that I'm a really awful player. Challenge my fleet to PvP sometime and you'll see just how awful I am.
PS: Running away from combat is a bad idea: you want to fly defensively, but for goodness' sake, stay in range of the healers. :P
And on another note, I'm trying out the Mirror Patrol Escort right now and it's not a bad ship at all. It may be worth messing around in.
Exactly.
People also fail to realize when flying the bug you instantly have a bullseye on your back. In the arena i am almost always first to get focus fired on unless i stay way back behind my team and even then soon as they see the ship its not 10-20 seconds and at least 3 people are shooting me.
base 20 not 22
and no cryptic will just nerf everything else in the game.
people want to talkk about op stuff why isnt there a thread in here with anyone complaining about the elite fleet sheilds?
we went up against a premade lastnight and i believe all 5 ships were running them,,,2 of my teamates are excellent pvpers, this team was all from same fleet so if one had them chances are they all did,,,we got waxed 15-0, ive never lost like that with those 2 guys on my team even if we had 2 crappy randoms. so we checked them out,,depending on which one you pick say base 15% resist to phaser/tets/polaron for example,,it stacks 2% 10 times for an additinal 20% now we are at 35% resist, but dont forget ep2s and TSS, after running the numbers my friend said your resist can get up to 65% minimum compared to the maco shields i was running that only have 10% resist to all types, it also can stack up to 20% to whatever energy it doesnt have a base defense from, so if any of this is wrong someone feel free to correct as im trying to learn about those shields cause far as im concerned they are God mode, the first target called lastnight 4 of us went after the guy and we never had him below 60% something is wrong with that picture.
btw, you can buy the bug with ingame money too (it was rather cheap, when the bug ship was reintroduced a few months ago).
and some people even sold the duty officer packs, which were containing the bug ship, in the exchange
Yes i know,,,i sold them too along with keys to buy mine :P
If your cruisers are ending up with 45 to 48k hull after all skills and resistances, I think you need some serious build help.
Most fleet cruisers start at 42k BASE HULL OR HIGHER.
Unless you're talking about RA ships or basic Cstore ships, in which case you should stop because they are clearly not in the same league as Fleet / Lobi / Lockbox ships.
1k or 2k? Sure.
10k or more? No, that's significant.
At the low end hull matters a lot, but once you have a certain amount of buffer, it loses it's importance. If you're in either a cruiser or a patrol escort you can survive bleedthrough damage, and have a bit of buffer to heal. Attacks that would insta-kill the patrol escort are likely to do it to the cruiser too.
Something like a BoP can die if you blink at the wrong time, no matter what the shields are like.
I've never really complained about the hull on the JHAS though -- basic escorts are already at the point where more hull wouldn't help them much, so it's not a big advantage for them. My problem with the JHAS has always been that it is best-in-class in every category, and has a turn-rate inconsistent with other escorts. The Wells has a similar problem, but dogfighting ability isn't so crucial on a science ship.
I don't agree, although I think there is merit to your point.
I think that as we watch the current metagame shift away from pressure to spike (or chained spikes), that higher caps become more relevant.
A Fleet Cruiser with 60k hull and 50% resistance (effective 120k hull) + 12K (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 18k facing or 72k 4 pool)
has a better chance to survive such an event compared to
A Destroyer/High Hull Escort with 45k hull and 50% resistance (effective 90k hull) + 9k (x4) shields with 50% resistance (effective potential 13.5k facing or 54k pool) .
This doesn't even include the potential boff layouts (healing potential) with powers such as Aux to SIF 3, ET 3, EPTS 3 all being available to the cruiser (which would also change those made up out of thin air generic ship stats I put forward).
I don't have a problem with your assessment, I do think your underestimating the value of the higher base turn rate on the Wells for getting SNB/90 degree powers/movement linked powers (TBR, PSW)/assist damage on kills on target, etc.
There is also the potential BOFF layouts (another frequent JHAS complaint) making it both one of the best healers and best sci capable ships.
My points in this thread have been a few key items:
1) People focus complaints on the JHAS, because most people are focued on Escorts - and tend to exaggerate ("as much hull as a cruiser!!") or forget about other ship classes (Wells, Recluse) and the powerful ships that are in them.
2) Most lockbox ships have some very clear advantages over most Fleet Ships - and extremely large and clear advantages over most Cstore "T5" ships.
3) The chances of Cryptic nerfing lockbox ships is infinitesimally small, and as much as it might get ire directed at me - I personally feel from a purely business standpoint (and not a game balance standpoint, which would be the opposite opinion) that nerfing these ships in anyway would be a completely terrible business decision.
Requesting better balance going forward on NEW SHIPS is likely to have a better chance of coming true than seeing currently sold ships get nerfed.
sadly this is more plausible. after all they wont nerf the big money maker but they will nerf the dred to obivian so it "works as intended"
Normally I'd go with my usual line about how much easier it would be to just address the problem. That doesn't seem likely but since the last patch adjusted some fleet ship stats then maybe they all need a little more. Go ahead and balance the entire tier 5ish roster around a single long standing mistake just so long as issues finally get addressed.
The biggest sticking point for me, and it does relate to balance, is that the iconic ships don't need to be over powered but they can't be allowed to become obsolete.
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
I don't have any issues with that direction.
I like the improvements made to some of the fleet ships, and I think they need to tweak more of the fleet ships across the board.
The lockbox ships would always likely have some advantage, but hopefully not to the point that iconic faction ships are "obsolete"**
**(obsolete from a pure min/max pvp viewpoint - for pve the JHAS advantages are largely irrelevant, the Recluse is all but pointless to use from a performance standpoint and the Vesta is easily a better ship to use than the Wells - on top of this a Tac focused Ody is one of, if not the best, damage capable Fed Cruisers for STFs).
In general I get the impression Cryptic undervalues turning and overvalues both hull and crew when they budget their ship stats (if they even bother trying to budget stats). I can have those same setups in a BoP.
And I actually do sometimes run a Vesta with an Lt Cmdr engineering slot, and that is basically just a better cruiser. I miss Aux2SIF 3 a little, but overall it's sturdier (because of it's shields) harder to pin down, and has a much easier time keeping up with team-mates.
I mean I get how powerful the healing BOffs can be, but that's sort of independent of the ship.
I really haven't had a problem using movement-linked powers in an Intrepid or a Vesta.
I've used a lot of movement-linked sci powers on an MVAM too, but didn't find that ships crazy-high maneuverability a big help onthe science powers (not that it wasn't a big help, but it helped dog-fighting using cannons, not lining up SNBs).
I find that a base-12 turn and engines that add turn are enough for me to use 90-degree abilities, PSW, TBR, and EWP whenever I like. It's not enough for cannon DPS in PvP, but sci powers usually only need to have the target in the arc for a split second.
It's definitely not the same situation as with the JHAS, because nothing about the Wells stops other science ships from doing their job against it, or makes it more difficult for other science ships to defend against it. I guess they are stronger against escorts than other science ships, but against other ship types they really aren't much different than other science ships. Except for useless ensigns on some ships, I don't see BOff layouts as something which makes one ship obsolete or not. It's important, but there are ways to make most combinations work very well.
My biggest complaint against Bugs is from when I drive an escort. There is just no point having another escort in a match where there is a bug because he is going to outmaneuver you too much unless he makes some major mistake.
That's the same whether you're solo or on a team -- even on a team escorts need to try and stay out of the 45 degree arc of other escorts, and the JHAS is just going to have more time on target.
My science vessels and cruisers fare about the same against them as against any other escort played similarly.
That difference in maneuver exists fighting BoPs or MVAMs too, but both of those are significantly more fragile than regular escorts, so the slower ship can win by tanking a bit more and just making the best of the windows they get. Maybe?
I see a lot of them in PvP, but none of them shift the balance the way the JHAS does.
I wouldn't have a problem with the JHAS being a better escort. It's turn rate is just way out of line with escorts, and turning is the most valuable attribute of escorts. I'm not sure that broken ships are helping their bottom line any.
I've bought a lot of ships in the past, but I wouldn't now just because I know that whatever I buy can't compete. Why the heck would I unlock a Fleet Patrol Escort on one character for $20? I like the look of that ship, and I like the BOffs, consoles -- the whole nine yards. But I'd be out $20 and really be no better off than flying the regular tier 5 escort.
It's really the same down the line. I beat fleet ships as often as the regular tier 5 ones.
And Cryptic doesn't even bother trying to balance the game. They have paid ships like the Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X (which are not favorites of mine anyway) which have been broken and near-useless ever since they were introduced. And since a big problem with both of those is their horrible turn-rate, a trait which Cryptic chose to copy in the Odyssey, I don't see a reason to think they will ever try to balance their ships.
I mean, it's easy for Cryptic to see what portion of their revenue is gained from lockboxes. What's harder to see is what portion of their player-base is lost due to particular problems.
Maybe buffing virtually every other ship in the game would be the solution, but that seems silly when the problem is limited to just a couple of ships.
You're right about the JHAS not having any real advantage for PvE, though in PvE the general 'escort' advantage is a lot more important. Neither healing or control is anything near as important in PvE as they are in PvP, so any ship that's not an escort takes away from the team.
And if I wasn't feeling bad enough about the game, right now I can't play 3 of my characters because of that bug where every freaking time I fire all my abilities get locked out for 2 minutes. If Cryptic can't get the basics, it's not surprising that they ignore things that are genuinely hard, like balance.
This would be great for the game but for their pockets it wouldn't
The cheesefest is probably key to their business which is a crying shame really
I agree with that.
This is clearly demonstrated when you compare Fed Cruisers vs. KDF Cruisers in design.
Just take a look at the Fleet Negh'var vs. Fleet Galaxy-R, and then look at the Fleet Vor'cha Compared to the Fleet Sovereign (or Excel).
The BoP has less to protect to begin with though.
Yes, Sci ships with uni Ltc have basically taken over the Cruiser's role. Unfortunately many Cruiser pilots think their role is the Escort's role. :rolleyes:
Regardless, I think the wells is still clearly top dog.
I'm reading this as if you are assuming you need to be able to go one on one vs. the JHAS when you're in a match on a team.
I find that's negotiable, it depends on your healers.
If we're focus firing on a target, I'm not going to suddenly fly around all crazy because 1 escort has me in his front 45.
This assumes there is a problem with the amount of master keys being sold.
I think it's working as intended by Cryptic, what we might see going forward is more ships like the JHHEC and JHDread - ships that are clear standouts in their PvE ability but not a sudden game changer in PvP.
If the whole team is focusing on the JHAS, but they are depending on my for DPS, I need to be able to keep it lined up.
You don't need to fly around all crazy to maneuver away from enemy fire, just get out of the front 45. The bigger the difference between your maneuverability and the enemies, the less you need to disrupt your attack run.
And who says it needs to be because just one escort has lined you up? Maybe you're dodging 3 of them?
The point is that the JHAS can maneuver to take less damage much more easily than escorts can, making it less of a burden on the team.
If you bring a JHAS, you are going to have more time on target than an escort, and take less damage. Or the number of players. If you drive players away from the game then they don't buy anything.
The players who buy master keys can't be the only ones Cryptic caters to. I don't mind so much if the lockbox stuff remains the best, but other pay ships like the fleet stuff ought to be competitive. Maybe. That doesn't mean that existing problems shouldn't be corrected a bit.
There really should be more competitive Starfleet and KDF ships before anything else is added.
In all seriousness, reducing the bug's turn rate from 20 down to 17 would go a long way towards bringing it in-line with other lockbox ships. The alternative is to start producing new lockbox ships with 20 turn rate + 5 tac console slots. + similar BOFF station layout so that exclusivity of the JHAS stops becoming a problem.
Yet another option: Introduce a new escort class ship with 5 forward weapon mounts!!! yeah right...
Well, there are other targets, and there is control.
The JHAS is not un-killable, and not solely killable by other JHAS.
When it's focus fire time, I do exactly that. I rely on the healers to keep me alive.
The only time I go full on defensive maneuvering is when I'm very specifically being focus fired by multiple ships.
And yet key sales keep rolling out, I really don't know how many players have actually left the game over lockbox ships - no one does.
So it's a tenuous speculation at best, really.
Its all on the exchange. Just like 5x MK XII purple tac consoles (30 to 60 mill each, 150 mill for a set of 5 at the low end), and MK XII ACCx3 Guns (15 to ??mill each, again a few hundred million invested).
They are competitive, in PvE - Cryptics target market. This game is a PvE focused game, it has PvP. This is the reality we all live in.
I think Cryptic is still trying to find the balance point between "has a clear advantage and therefore promotes MASSIVE SALES" and "pisses off PvP subforums but still promotes MASSIVE SALES".
Because "has a tiny advantage, and promotes WEAK SALES" is clearly not in the strategy when you invest that much artist time into a new ship that is funded solely through one of the very few "micro" transactions this game actually has (a consumable, random one at that).
Here's why Fleet Ships are not toe to toe with lockbox ships: they were never intended to generate massive revenue.
They require ZERO art assets.
All they are, are stats on a spreadsheet. No new art was created, in fact old art was recycled.
New art?
Ody 3 pack mega-premium purchase, Vesta 3 pack mega-premium purchase, Soon-to-be-released Kumari 3 pack mega-premium purchase, Lobi ship mega-premium purchase, Lockbox ship mega-premium purchase.
What this means is that Fleet Ships were never intended to generate tons of revenue.
It took old favorites, brought them up a notch (required some spreadsheet tweaks at most) - used recycled art, and it promoted the Starbase system.
I'd love it if it weren't true, but I'm not going to spend endless days on the forums crying about it either. (not directed at you, just this sub-forum in general)
I'm not buying any of them, because I dislike the sales strategy presented to me on them.
My options are:
Ships I like but retained BOFF layouts I dislike (Defiant)
Ships I like but will get no discount from my previous Cstore purchase (Fleet Nova, Fleet Saber)
I'm not spending 5 to 20 million on a ship (much less actual money, or a load of dilithium) for a BOFF layout I dislike, when I can just pony up an extra 30 to 60 and get a Mobius (went as low as 50), JHEC (will likely go as low as 50, I got one for 45), Wells (went as low as 34) from the exchange when the price hits rock bottom.
And you can do it more effectively than an escort can. It's not just the lockbox ships, but a lot of things. I played the game when it was new, and it definitely bled subscribers. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
The only serious escort choice is the JHAS, and that would be a problem even if everyone got one for free.
It's as if it's in it's own tier.
This is why I don't get why a reduction in turn rate would be a problem -- it's barely a relevant characteristic in PvE. I've seen dual cannons on freaking carriers in PvE! NPCs barely manuever at all, and it's usually pretty safe to just pull up to a dead stop a few km away and mash your spacebar.
I'm not sure anyone who doesn't PvP would notice if the JHAS had 17 turn instead of 20 if no one told them.
Alternatively, I could see improving the turn on virtually everything else, but except for the Wells and the JHAS, the ships with 12+ turn rates already seem pretty balanced.
Ships don't need to be overpowered in order to sell well -- look at the Galaxy-R and Galaxy-X. Or the Excelsior for that matter.
Ships like the Vesta and Oddy seem to have sold well too, and while those have some very powerful stuff about them, none of it has made other ships of their class obsolete.
Turn rate is the most important characteristic of escorts. The JHAS went with the baseline (16) and made it 25% better. That would be like a new cruiser with 50k hull or 10 guns. Except for the Wells and the JHAS, changes of that magnitude pretty much don't happen.
I'd like to see the JHAS have it's turn rate brought in line with the current "nimble" escorts at 17, but even if it was 18, that would probably be a lot better. There still wouldn't be a reason for using another escort, but at least the others could be competitive.
If they are offered for sale, Cryptic obviously wants to sell them. They're just bad values.
My point is that if cryptic wants to make money, they need to offer some things that are nearly as good as the lockbox ships.
It's basic sales -- offer a high end model with the very best of everything, then a mid-range model which is "second-best" but at a dramatically reduced price, and then a low-end which costs a little less than the mid-range but with lower specs.
A certain portion of the population will always shell out top dollar to have the very best, and the high price on that makes the price of the mid-range look much more reasonable. The trick is that the second-best has to offer almost as much benefit as the top of the line, otherwise customers just go for whatever is cheapest.
To work with the JHAS, there would need to be some pay ship with stats just a bit below the JHAS. the problem is that all the pay escorts have much reduced stats compared to the JHAS, so they look like bad values. People who already bought one feel suckered, and people who are already using the cheapest option don't have a reason to move up.
Suppose I have a vanilla Patrol Escort -- what reason is there for me to buy another escort?
Maybe the Andorian ship will narrow the gap some, but there are still a half-dozen pay escorts which are TRIBBLE compared to the JHAS.
Those are problems too.
I have no intention of reading all the butthurt and QQ this thread undoubtedly has within its pages.
I do want to say one thing to Playhard88: You sir... are Hired.
You win this debate and life in general. *Award*
That is all. :cool:
You should at least have read the date on the posts.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
If anything, the wells class is more OP, it has higher shields than most cruisers (I had mine upto 14000), the destroyer loads cannons, it has things like backstep which is just a get out of jail free card. The temporal also has real good hull strength and an even more ideal BOff layout. Whilst it doesnt turn on a dime, it still has a good rate (certainly comparable to other escorts) if its kitted right.
No ones mentioned BoPs with BCs shooting torps from cloak that has a 21 base turn though.
Although as we know, should you spot it and give it a stern look, it will explode.:D
Oh bummer, its a necroed post. Apologies.
Bugships in Star Trek made Dominion War era Mirandas look like Sovereigns in terms of ruggedness.
Yet in STO, they are the best ships to get.
The Bugship is a crutch. It makes less competent players really think they're better than they really are, and gives them a totally rude awakening when they try another ship. Even a fine ship like the Akiras. They no longer have the OP stats to prop them up. In the hands of a good player? It's a ridiculous ship.