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Retro Set Change, bad idea

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  • red01999red01999 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    lol everyone runs 3 borg + maco/khg not because it's OP, (lemme use caps here)

    BUT BECAUSE EVERYTHING ELSE IS CR*P.

    This sums up all items in this game: 99.9% of chicken stuff and 0.1% of actually useful items. And then there's major whine or this is OP and that isn't. Make other useful items and useful set combinations, so that there's an actual choice.

    I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that, but the set bonuses I've seen tend to be very poor in most non-Borg sets. Even the Borg set's 3rd bonus is basically considered a non-bonus, hence why so few people run the Borg shield after they get the console and MACO shield.

    That said, I'm also considering the capabilities of individual equipment pieces - I don't know if you are or not.
  • eristhevortaeristhevorta Member Posts: 1,049 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2012
    I missed to see the MK XII set version of the new retro set, there is only MK X and XI. Also the Remulan prototype set is only available in MK XI blue and purrple, why not XII blue and purrple as well? I guess Remulan datalogs will be gun after the patch.
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  • eristhevortaeristhevorta Member Posts: 1,049 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2012
    BTW: The Klinguns even had the higher benefit from the 3pc Borg set bonus and the KHG shield. That has a hilariously high capacity. Maco just has half the bleedthrough, butt much less capacity. ^^
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Datalogs might get converted to marks.

    But the rep teir lists may not be the finished version yet, it's hard to say.
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  • eristhevortaeristhevorta Member Posts: 1,049 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2012
    Purrhaps so, yeah. Well, I like the Maco shield for the visuals already. :)
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    At the risk of re-igniting the flames, allow me to attempt to explain the reasoning behind this change...

    The Borg Space Set was originally balanced around the concept of players using all four pieces. This included the Regenerative Shield.

    After the set went live, it became very evident that the vast majority of players did not wish to use the Borg Shield. Instead, they began running 2- and 3-piece conglomerations of Borg Set + Other Shields (and frequently Other Engines or Deflectors).

    The trouble this presented, is that the passive heal procs present on the 2- and 3-piece Borg Set bonuses were intended originally to offset the downside presented by having a low-capacity shield array in an end-game environment where heavy spike damage was present (STFs). When you remove that shield from the mix, and replace it with a high-capacity alternative, you begin to receive all of the benefits and none of the downsides.

    Hence an imbalance came to pass.

    Even after the Borg Set Bonuses were toned down several months ago, nothing really changed. The vast majority of players continued to run Borg 2- or 3-piece, plus a shield of their choosing, benefiting from a design oversight to a degree that left combat in an imbalanced state.

    By removing the Console from the Borg Space Set, we've brought a semblance of balance back to that equation. Now, in order to benefit from the set bonuses in the manner that was originally intended, players must use the Shield that was intended to be a part of the package as a whole.

    This is not a change we undertook lightly, as we're always hesitant to take things away from players that have already earned them through a potentially time-consuming process. In fact, this is why we added the previous 4-piece bonus (Borg Tractor Beam) to the 3-piece set, instead of including it as one of the bonuses of the new "Alt Set." So that players that had already earned this equipment lost nothing, and did not have to go out and earn new equipment in order to get something they already had.

    We're watching the aftermath of all of this very closely to ensure that our motivations for making the choices that we did, match up with the results that players are experiencing. It may come to pass that the Borg Set items, or associated Set Bonuses, now need to be improved under this new design. That's something we'll continue to keep on our radar.

    As one result of the feedback we've already received in relation to this change, we're performing another performance review of all of the STF set bonuses, with a specific focus on the 3-piece abilities. This includes the Heavy Graviton Beam, Gravitic Anchor, and Mask Energy Field. All of these powers will be improved in some manner, along with an upcoming patch.

    As a player who rarely if every uses anything but the borg console anymore, the other sets aren't nearly as underpowered as people are claiming. Further, they often will whine about set bonuses ignoring the individual perks that come form using the individual items.

    Elite STFs can be used w/white gear and less than MKX grade. I know I've done it when leveling toons. Even PuG PvP most matches have at least 1 target that doesn't know simple things like shield distribution.

    If I'm going to be using a set it's been Omega. I use the 3 part Omega, my only concern is to make sure it works right. I read months ago it actually increased target's defense, not reduce it. KDF 3 part stinks (I've expressed my feelings about changes here in other places). I don't play Fed, but as it reads I see nothing underpowered by it. But, 3 subsystem disable w/knockback does seem a bit much tbh.

    If I'm not using Omega set I'll mix in various things like Omega shields for speed/turn/inertia boost, Aegis engines for defense boost, and Deflector for Sci boosts. My point here is these items have enough value on their own to make them worth equiping.

    There's a reason I can escape 99% of puggers. They aren't using hyper impulse engines. Unless under very heavy Sci spam I can disengage b/c even their escorts are using slow engines which is quite frankly dumb.
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  • trenttylertrenttyler Member Posts: 110 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Im not a fan generally of cut and paste builds. But, the retro+Maco build is so widly used for a reason, ie, Cryptic has done nothing for STF in ages. They split them up to make the more user/time friendly and that is the last bit of love end game has received.

    You cant blame people for useing a set up that has proven itself in the only endgame content we in STO have. Give us more equipment suitable for end game and it will be two weeks before the new cut and paste build replaces the retro set.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    trenttyler wrote: »
    Im not a fan generally of cut and paste builds. But, the retro+Maco build is so widly used for a reason, ie, Cryptic has done nothing for STF in ages. They split them up to make the more user/time friendly and that is the last bit of love end game has received.

    You cant blame people for useing a set up that has proven itself in the only endgame content we in STO have. Give us more equipment suitable for end game and it will be two weeks before the new cut and paste build replaces the retro set.

    ESTFs are a DPS race. Borg set is defensive. 2-3 part Omega or even 2-3 part Jem would be better to use.

    A couple of Fleet actions are really the only time PvE isn't a DPS race.
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  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    ESTFs are a DPS race. Borg set is defensive. 2-3 part Omega or even 2-3 part Jem would be better to use.

    A couple of Fleet actions are really the only time PvE isn't a DPS race.

    My guess is rather KHG engines and deflector with a maco shield for the next "I win at STO" uber tank build.
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  • kerven01kerven01 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    -1 to nerfing the retro borg gear.

    +1 to making it expensive, adjusting the strength of the heal, or changing the set effects (like 5% chance to pseudo "adapt" to an energy type or huge increase in shield power for X time instead of current shield heal).

    I don't understand why (E)STF's are being made so player unfriendly. I guess it's alright to do so in the Season 6 version since they're dilithium farms. However, from what I've been reading about Season 7 they aren't going to be quite as useful for farming (no more random drops of items worth ~2k dil). So, why nerf players and keep (E)STF's as difficult as they are?

    Sure, the retro borg set has a nifty, "OP" proc, and it's "OP" because everyone uses it... But what else would you expect? The majority of people will always use what's "best" for a particular situation. The only way to encourage people to switch it up a bit and use different sets of gear is to mix it up a bit in space combat. Right now, (E)STF's are all about DPS, and with high DPS comes the need to survive aggro's insanely strong attacks (compared to player attacks). So, who needs or wants a set that doesn't give the best bonuses to shield and hull heal/strength/resist? It's obvious. Make the other sets worth using and comparable to the retro borg set and people will use them... Adding a couple of unique situations to STF's that might require certain abilities, damage types, or whatnot might increase the diversity a bit too so that it's not a DPS fest with need for the best of the best gear.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Jem is nice for the extra DPS boost when using Polaron.

    Honestly my fave is the Aegis. It doesn't have heal procs, but it's impressively tanky even without them.
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  • gpgtxgpgtx Member Posts: 1,579 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    the extra defense is a nice bonus as well
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    trenttyler wrote: »
    Im not a fan generally of cut and paste builds. But, the retro+Maco build is so widly used for a reason, ie, Cryptic has done nothing for STF in ages. They split them up to make the more user/time friendly and that is the last bit of love end game has received.

    You cant blame people for useing a set up that has proven itself in the only endgame content we in STO have. Give us more equipment suitable for end game and it will be two weeks before the new cut and paste build replaces the retro set.


    Yup. This has been my point exactly all along. You can't blame people for seeking the optimum. If Elite STFs predominantly had speedy TRIBBLE Borg Escorts in them, people would quickly adapt, and ere long the optimum would now be sets that gave you improved agility/speed.

    I have also argued your second point: namely, that if you nerf the current optimal set, soon a new optimum will be found, and people will start using the latter again en masse. I.e.: Borticus is embarking on a pointless nerfing cycle.

    I also wish to reiterate that there's nothing inherently wrong with some gear being better than others (or even 'best'). If all gear were about equally good, there's no longer any reason to not just stick with the one set you already have. Yawn. Sure game-killer.

    Furthermore, I wish to emphasize again, that the best way to have people vary in sets, is to offer variety in content. As long as you really only need to tank for DPS, though, people really only will use sets that do so best, and nothing else.

    tl;dr: look at causes, not at effects.
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Nothing wrong with something being better... sure ya thats semi true.

    The issue isn't that the borg set is best... its that its best by a country mile.

    Come on its a joke how much better it is.

    Its not like the game was unplayable before the borg set was introduced... it wasn't around at launch or something.

    It was added and immediately destroyed balance. The second people where able to get there borg set the aegis became useless... any non set gear was < by a ton.

    I use the borg set like everyone else... I'm not going to come hear and defend it cause I want to keep my uber heals. Its a joke.

    Come on it procs on my ship once every 45 seconds on the hull heal and gives me 2400 healing per tick... and removes any hazards on my ship... and when I run 3 piece... every 45 seconds it procs a shield heal that gives me a TSS 2 level heal again removing any hazards from my ship... while still giving me +10 power to a bunch of system... a deflector that boosts my hull stats... and I can run in combo with a shield that gives me a +10 power is resistant, has a bonus 10% dmg reduction... + a 20% plama reduction on top for borg mission... has a very nice cap... and still has better then average regen.

    YES it is the best combo in the game... but comapre it every other set... and sure we can say ya but all those sets suck... but do they ?

    Or is it that one set is doing its own thing ?

    Seems to me if everything else seems to suck accept one combo... perhaps its not that everything else sucks but that one set is way to good. lol
  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Like I've already said countless times this change is pointless unless we see upgrades to Mk XII for Aegis/Breen/Jem Hadar sets. As well as fixes for M.A.C.O's final tier power. That is if you actually want diversity, otherwise as has already been said people will find a new "I Win" set.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    Seems to me if everything else seems to suck accept one combo... perhaps its not that everything else sucks but that one set is way to good. lol

    There will always be one set to rule them all. Unless you plan to make every set exactly equally good. See, all your earlier ridicule despite, you were right about one thing: these optimal sets are not exactly a secret. In fact, news of optimal fittings travels pretty fast. Even if some PvP-er intended to keep his newfound set combo a secret, soon he would tell someone anyway ("Vanity, definitely my favorite sin."). Or another one would. And ere long the news will have trickled down to the masses via 'zone'.

    I give it a week before everyone has caught on. Then, a week later, I will watch you want a nerf for what is then the best set.
    The issue isn't that the borg set is best... its that its best by a country mile.

    Best for what? Exactly: for tanking DPS. At the risk of running in circles here, but it's really not that the other sets are TRIBBLE, or innately so much worse than the Borg set, but that they come with set features like speed, agility, etc., that are not needed in end-game scenarios. THAT is what needs to change. But as long as the devs will only make content that throws out DPS, or moar DPS, then tanking DPS is all people will ever look for in a set. And rightly so.

    I actually understand Borticus a lot better than I understand you. See, from a game-design perspective, it really *is* kinda weird that you can use the 'Regenerative Shielding' of a set, without even using the shield that comes with it. I remember asking about this in zone once, when I was rather new, and expected an answer like: "No, LOL, you need to use the Borg shield for that, of course!"

    You, on the other hand, just want to nerf because, for some reason, you can't stand something being the best. And nerfing based on that rationale is both silly and setting a dangerous precedent.
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    You, on the other hand, just want to nerf because, for some reason, you can't stand something being the best. And nerfing based on that rationale is both silly and setting a dangerous precedent.

    It has nothing to do with being the best... it has to do with being the best in a specific situation.

    Every set in this game is viable depending on what build you used.

    Honestly I don't see anyone set other then the borg becoming a standard set.

    The KHG set... has almost no bonus to shield performance or Hull numbers... But it gives you the most shield cap... but has a terrible regen rate. However for a torp build its the best set 2 piece hands down.

    The Maco Set... has the highest pure number defense numbers with shield system and sif system boosts. It has as we have been talking about one of the best all around shields.

    The Omega Set... has a regen shield with a bit better cap number... gives a nice bit of extra offense. Bonus shield strip to all nrg... its not for every build but for builds built around full nrg and or shield stripping... its a fantastic set.

    The Jem set... has a few design issues... of course its not an STF set so it being a little less is to be expected... still it has a niche use.

    The Breen set... same as the Jem set pretty much

    Aegis set... used to be an interesting set... the 3 piece bonus used to be one of my favorite bonuses... the reactive hull resist was cool and worked well... the fact that almost no dmg gets in on hull till its to late anymore makes it a bit Meh... but if shield healing is reduced in general that can change. The 2 piece extra defense was great for escorts. I used to run full aegis on everything escort and I loved it. (I will second the idea of a Aegis Mk XII... perhaps they could be crafted still but require a rare piece that would drop from one of the STFS or something ?)

    I am not a nerf everything guy no... Frankly I have 15 toons and I still have some toons with pretty junk gear and I do fine in them. This is about making gear aprox even... with sets to fit any build choice. That is what we (cryptic) should be shooting for. Right now there is really no choice and we all know it... its 2 piece borg at a min.

    Let me also say once more people calling this a major nerf are not really thinking this one through.

    You can STILL run 2 piece borg and maco shield... you will ONLY be giving up the second shield heal.... you still get the 2 piece hull heal. You still keep all the bonuses from the maco shield. I don't even understand how anyone can really argue that that combo would deserve to keep the shield heal. lol
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This is also, not a better idea, forcing Tact, Sci, and Engineer to redo their builds on console use.
    If equalizing the ship's set to their proper use, like the Borg set should be used in its entirely...then that is fine. I was not a fan of the mixing either.
    zardonfar wrote: »
    I think this is a bad idea. A better idea would have been to increase Macro and Omega to a 4 piece set, allowing more flexability in your build out. Or increase all builds to a 6 piece set. Allowing more combinations in what special abilities suit your play style.

    But it looks like the dye is already set, so they is just another post in the wind.
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  • xantrisxantris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012

    This change is not good, focus on BOOSTING MACO and Omega Not nerfing Borg.

    This is a post generaly recapping what most ppl will think when this goes live,

    I don't agree at all. The 3 piece Borg + High Cap shield is too strong, so strong it's a defacto gear standard for everyone, while also being incredibly easy to obtain. Healing is already over the top in this game, and w/out a level cap increase, you have to be mindful of power creep. So yeah, it needed to be nerfed.

    Getting nerfed sucks, but it needed to be done.
  • seekerkorhilseekerkorhil Member Posts: 472
    edited October 2012
    xantris wrote: »
    I don't agree at all. The 3 piece Borg + High Cap shield is too strong, so strong it's a defacto gear standard for everyone, while also being incredibly easy to obtain. Healing is already over the top in this game, and w/out a level cap increase, you have to be mindful of power creep. So yeah, it needed to be nerfed.

    Getting nerfed sucks, but it needed to be done.

    This.

    Everyone knows the "best" thing to run was 3 piece borg and Maco shield. The reason everyone knows this is its obviously the best BY FAR.

    I have no problem with there being 1 set of gear that is better than all the rest but it should only be slightly better. Not miles better.
  • starboardnacellestarboardnacelle Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Since the Borg regenerative shield array proc will be impossible to use with other set-ups, can you buff it to offset the low shield capacity?
  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Since the Borg regenerative shield array proc will be impossible to use with other set-ups, can you buff it to offset the low shield capacity?

    I would rather bring the whole system to mk XII. Regenerative shields are fine otherwise...for what they do.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    I am not a nerf everything guy no...

    (...)

    Aegis set... used to be an interesting set... the 3 piece bonus used to be one of my favorite bonuses... the reactive hull resist was cool and worked well... the fact that almost no dmg gets in on hull till its to late anymore makes it a bit Meh... but if shield healing is reduced in general that can change.

    And yet, in the same breath, you're already gearing up for the next nerf (probably related to your avid attempts, elsewhere, to get Tactical Team nerfed, right?).
    Let me also say once more people calling this a major nerf are not really thinking this one through.

    When a set that, by your own admission, *everyone* uses gets weakened, then doing so is by definition a 'major nerf.'
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,608 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    And yet, in the same breath, you're already gearing up for the next nerf (probably related to your avid attempts, elsewhere, to get Tactical Team nerfed, right?).

    When a set that, by your own admission, *everyone* uses gets weakened, then doing so is by definition a 'major nerf.'

    Yes indeed it if where up to me... which it isn't... Tac team would be turned back... and the misinformed changes that happened to it would be removed. However most likely it will have a duration reduction on the low level version at least. We'll see what the Cryptic guys do... however yes they have said it is on the short list for a revisit, along with Shield Distro doffs which more then likely will simply get a major healing reduction.

    Again how is it a major nerf... the set should NOT be giving free shield heals unless you run the borg shield itself... you have even said yourself that that is only logical. You can STILL go 2 piece borg + Maco Shield... you still keep the borg hull healing proc... you simply loose the shield heal. No it is not a major nerf... Major nerf would have been a 50% reduction to the strength of both procs + the set changes. ;) (honestly thats what I would have done be grateful I'm not one of the devs)
  • nicha0nicha0 Member Posts: 1,456 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    A lot of people have summed up what I feel on these changes.
    You can nerf one set and a new one will become completely Op, so why bother? The devs don't really understand combat in depth enough to balance well, they know their spreadsheets but when it comes to what really happens in a game they are out of it.

    Right now the gates fire torps that can eat through a full charged EPtS3 Maco shield (during RSP) facing and half your hull in one shot, so are you going to tell me the endless one shotting isn't going to be back after this "balance"?

    Maco and 3 pc borg is a sci or escort defense set, it keeps your hull alive because those ships lack any decent hull healing. Its not a great cruiser set, the 2 pc omega is going to give a cruiser better turn, defense and more damage (lets not refer to the countless cruisers suck thread filled with people running maco and borg gear)

    The aegis set is a starter end set, its not meant to be on par with STF gear, nothing in crafting is. The Jem and Breen sets are on the same level as Aegis and are meant to be there.

    The KHG shield performs better than expected, putting that on a high defense ship could be pretty Op.
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  • seekerkorhilseekerkorhil Member Posts: 472
    edited October 2012
    nicha0 wrote: »
    The aegis set is a starter end set, its not meant to be on par with STF gear, nothing in crafting is.

    Personally, and this is just my opinion so don't go crazy, I always considered to 2 piece Aegis bonus to be great when 1 of those pieces is the engine. +10% Defence is pretty good when you are already at 80/90%. I'd rather the Borg Heavy Plasma Torpedo miss me than hit me and not kill me. That 10% seems to make a huge difference when a Borg Isometric Charge is heading for you lol.

    I suspect people may finally realise, with these changes, that Aegis Engine, Aegis Deflector and Maco Shield is the way to go, on escorts at least.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    husanakx wrote: »
    Yes indeed it if where up to me... which it isn't... Tac team would be turned back... and the misinformed changes that happened to it would be removed. However most likely it will have a duration reduction on the low level version at least.

    And since running 2x Tactical Team is really only practical on ensign positions (can't really expect people to sacrifice things like THY2/BO2, just for having shields), we're *again* looking at a major nerf.
    We'll see what the Cryptic guys do... however yes they have said it is on the short list for a revisit, along with Shield Distro doffs which more then likely will simply get a major healing reduction.

    (...)

    Major nerf would have been a 50% reduction to the strength of both procs + the set changes. ;) (honestly thats what I would have done be grateful I'm not one of the devs)

    The question is, of course, why? Why do you want everything nerfed so much? Is it some sort of resentment/mockery towards 'carebears' who have it too easy? I'm asking seriously, cuz I don't really understand where this desire to purposely harm people's game comes from. And yes, from crippling the Borg set, to decoupling shield distribution from TT, to gravely reducing the effectiveness of shield distro doffs, this nerfing streak will hurt the game *incredibly* so (now you understand why I'm so set against this Borg set nerf, as it's part of a whole unnerving nerfing packagge deal). Maybe it won't harm you. Word goes you're one of the most skilled pilots around; so you'll probably be fine. But for the other 99%, merrily doing their PvE thing, with Cryptic already turning up the DPS heat, in preparation of Season 7, all this severe nerfing just means people will die a lot faster. Now, where's the fun in that? Can't we just stipulate you're the better pilot, and would survive most nerfs (no sarcasm intended), and then you just stop trying to break the game for everyone else at every turn?
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  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    "Diversity" is not an end unto itself. I personally do not care about anyone's desire to be a unique little snowflake, and I'm actually really tired of stupid n00bs experimenting with sub-optimal builds in STFs.
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  • seekerkorhilseekerkorhil Member Posts: 472
    edited October 2012
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The question is, of course, why? Why do you want everything nerfed so much?

    Just because someone wants some of the most over-used abilities in the game to be toned down slightly is no reason to go screaming the N word.

    This game has problems. Anyone who is paying attention can see this. Power creep is not even the biggest. I rate the OTT survivability of escorts as a problem. As do a lot of people. As does almost any escort pilot who is being honest.

    Decreasing the effectivness of some of the games best self heals is a good step in the right direction. Low rank heals (read ensign, lt) are too effective. This isnt even just a pvp issue. Where is the challenge in an ESTF where you are never really at risk of dying in an escort. Sure, 1 shots are no fun but because of how powerful healing is in this game anything less than a 1 shot might as well not happen.

    It keeps coming back to escorts because running any other ship is sub-optimal in the game we are playing. There is no real drawback to flying an escort and that is a problem. One of two things needs to change. Either low rank healing skills need "nerfing" or Escorts need a build in penalty to such heals.

    Decreasing the effectiveness of healing is the first step to decreasing the number of 1 shots in the game (as they will no longer be necessary) and increasing enjoyment for all.
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