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Retro Set Change, bad idea

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  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    Frankly I have 1 thing to say about this change "AT LONG LAST!!"

    Look, it's this set that allows everyone to tank to stupid degrees take this away and you do two things that benefit two communities:

    1: You end the reign of tac tank/scorts thus giving the other ships a reason in PvE (admittedly it's only half the reform needed here but it's a start)

    2: You end invincible cruisers in PvP, I run a shield strip cruiser, the only thing tat stops it is the borg shield heal

    So I say to Cryptic "FINALLY! One step in the right direction, now can we end the DPS race as well?"

    So replace one reign with another, in a few months people will be moaning about the unfairness of a Chimera with Phased Tets...

    Seriously this is not the answer. The answer is to upgrade everything and actually give people a choice why do you think a lot of people were going with Borg 2 or 3 because the other sets frankly offered nothing at 3 Piece. Aegis, Breen and Jem were worthless at end game... so the solution is not replace one reign with another but to upgrade the sets and offer people a real alternative.

    This frankly does nothing for the problem and as an aside utterly ruins whats left of the Science users in this game.
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    verlaine11 wrote: »
    It would be different if the other sets were just as good as the Borg set, looking at the set bonuses of the MACO and Omega sets to me they are not that good, if i want to keep with a 3 piece Borg + Console i would have to use the Borg shield and i would drop from 14,500 to 11,200 shields but gain a Tractor beam with a horrible cooldown, great trade off. If i want to keep as i am, MACO shields + 2 piece now im very much worse off with no regen shield or tractor beam but the same shield

    Im sure there are a lot of people who are worried thier set up is now going to be junk, i know adapt or die will be said but i dont know, its all very confusing and not good, have to see how it goes.

    This is kinda how I feel about it. Ultimately it's not the end of the world and new ideas'll come up instead, but the root of the problem is that:

    a) MACO shields are so good;

    b) all of the non-Borg sets have lacklustre bonuses and really high opportunity costs.
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This is kinda how I feel about it. Ultimately it's not the end of the world and new ideas'll come up instead, but the root of the problem is that:

    a) MACO shields are so good;

    b) all of the non-Borg sets have lacklustre bonuses and really high opportunity costs.

    What high opportunity costs? What else would you use? I'd use 3 part omega just for the individual boost as KDF 90% of the time.

    Tet glider? Torp bonus damage? Polaron bonus damage? Transphasic damage? Aegis defensive boost?
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    What high opportunity costs? What else would you use? I'd use 3 part omega just for the individual boost as KDF 90% of the time.

    Tet glider? Torp bonus damage? Polaron bonus damage? Transphasic damage? Aegis defensive boost?

    It's hard to describe without seeing it in practice, but basically if you do Fedscort there's a big difference between running tet glider and running Borg instead. Tet glider is good if you build around it and you're playing with people you trust, but the argument goes that if you're dead you're dealing no damage so Borg is still king.

    Klink-side I almost always go torps for KHG so it's kinda a different deal altogether.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • liquidraven26liquidraven26 Member Posts: 94 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Wonder if they are trying to "force" our hand into buying fleet weapons and shields and stuff. Outside of the borg set, I am not a fan of any of the other sets bonuses
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited October 2012
    Looks like I'll have to swap out the engines on my B'rel Retrofit and get something a tad more useful.

    Possibly go with the full HG set or the Omega engines. Honestly, the hull heals are sufficient enough to keep my torp boat alive.

    My Fed character has only the borg console, so I'm not too broken up about this change.
    Wonder if they are trying to "force" our hand into buying fleet weapons and shields and stuff. Outside of the borg set, I am not a fan of any of the other sets bonuses
    I have been, more or less, unimpressed with all of the Fleet gear. With the exceptions of the Advanced Fleet ground weapons and the Advanced Fleet Impulse Engines.
  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    It's hard to describe without seeing it in practice, but basically if you do Fedscort there's a big difference between running tet glider and running Borg instead. Tet glider is good if you build around it and you're playing with people you trust, but the argument goes that if you're dead you're dealing no damage so Borg is still king.

    Klink-side I almost always go torps for KHG so it's kinda a different deal altogether.

    What context are you talking about? PvE, PvP? I haven't used Borg set for PvP nor PvE in so long I'm having trouble getting the need of it.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    shookyang wrote: »
    Looks like I'll have to swap out the engines on my B'rel Retrofit and get something a tad more useful.

    Possibly go with the full HG set or the Omega engines. Honestly, the hull heals are sufficient enough to keep my torp boat alive.

    My Fed character has only the borg console, so I'm not too broken up about this change.


    I have been, more or less, unimpressed with all of the Fleet gear. With the exceptions of the Advanced Fleet ground weapons and the Advanced Fleet Impulse Engines.

    3 part KHG bonus is TRIBBLE. Combat engines are next to useless KHG or not. Go w/Aegis or Omega.
    [Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
    Random Quote from Kerrat
    "Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
    C&H Fed banter
  • shookyangshookyang Member Posts: 1,122
    edited October 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    3 part KHG bonus is TRIBBLE. Combat engines are next to useless KHG or not. Go w/Aegis or Omega.
    Yeah, but I don't really care about speed. It's high enough as it is, plus the turn rate on it is ridiculous. I'm cloaked the majority of the time anyways.

    However, now that you've mentioned the Aegis engine, I may consider that.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    So replace one reign with another, in a few months people will be moaning about the unfairness of a Chimera with Phased Tets...

    This I would have no issue with, it's just another design choice phased tets hit with the phaser proc more than tetryon anyway and if you have any power insulators it becomes like blue phaser fire anyway
    Seriously this is not the answer.

    It may not be the best solution but it is a step in the right direction , the borg set is the ONLY reason escorts are as tanky as they are and thereby putting cruises out of a job in PvE and rendering them harmless in PvP
    The answer is to upgrade everything and actually give people a choice why do you think a lot of people were going with Borg 2 or 3 because the other sets frankly offered nothing at 3 Piece. Aegis, Breen and Jem were worthless at end game... so the solution is not replace one reign with another but to upgrade the sets and offer people a real alternative.

    I agree that the other set bonuses leave something to be desired by comparison to the borg set but that's mainly sue to the mass healing from said set, before I got the Mk XII MACO set I used the Aegis one and was still very hard to kill, I do think the 3 piece bonus could use a boost although I hear that people had called for it to be nerfed shortly after it's creation which is a shame as I liked it's reactive shielding
    This frankly does nothing for the problem and as an aside utterly ruins whats left of the Science users in this game.

    And it doesn't ruin science at all, there are a lot of threats to science but this is not one of them, my science uses Omega set and does just fine. The real problem with the game as stated in "buff cruisers" threads everywhere is the DPS race that the endgame has become, fix that, sci powers (de-nerf them), escort tanking and perhaps bring their damage down a little and you fix the game
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  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    diogene0 wrote: »
    Currently, without a full team perfectly working on some escorts, they're impossible to kill in pvp....

    So often you hear this, and how no one ever thinks to say the same is true of cruisers. Lets not kid ourselves, PvP as a whole will never work right because the game simply isn't balanced for pvp, its not about classes or ship types, its far more fundamental than that.
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    p2wsucks wrote: »
    What context are you talking about? PvE, PvP? I haven't used Borg set for PvP nor PvE in so long I'm having trouble getting the need of it.

    I only ever really post about PvP. Borg is pretty common there at all play levels. Very few people won't at least go two-piece, even on escorts, because the opportunity cost is so low (you get one part from a console that's awesome in its own right, so).
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  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    adamkafei wrote: »
    It may not be the best solution but it is a step in the right direction , the borg set is the ONLY reason escorts are as tanky as they are and thereby putting cruises out of a job in PvE and rendering them harmless in PvP

    This isn't remotely true and misinfo like this is part of why balance is so wild, random and messy.
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  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    This isn't remotely true and misinfo like this is part of why balance is so wild, random and messy.

    I will have to disagree. Not that misinformation is bad and causes lots of unnecessary headaches, because it does. But I disagree on the part of why balance is "wild, random and messy". A dev once explained HOW they balance things. Its done against what they perceive an average player will do. Where an average player might get a 100 bonus to "X", a PvPer will naturally build around "X" to get a 300 bonus to it. This is why pvp will never work in STO as more than a nice diversion now and then. I do think PvP could be improved despite this... but it would involve pug and premades having different queues.
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    So often you hear this, and how no one ever thinks to say the same is true of cruisers. Lets not kid ourselves, PvP as a whole will never work right because the game simply isn't balanced for pvp, its not about classes or ship types, its far more fundamental than that.

    I don't expect perfect balance in any game, perfect balance requires games with very simple mechanics, or, in complex ones, everyone with the same ship, the same gear, the same build, or something very smilar to the "champion mode" in age of empires online, where you play with your civ without any gear and a standard build. But there's still a lot of room for improvement, and this change is IMO a step in the right direction.
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  • carl103carl103 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Yeah as i've said allready this is a good thing. Before you could allways have a good sheild and some great borg set regen bonusus. Now you have to pick between the two. When there was a fundamental issue with that healing being too good, (along with other heals shimmerless), in some circumstances the anwser isn';t to make everything else as good as that does nothing to reduces the undesirable amounts of healing. Nerfing our ability to acess it is a tottally good thing.

    That said for any sci build that relied on MACE + 3pc borg this is a huge nerf in PVE and PVP. The issue of course is that escorts and sci are both that littile bit less tanky than cruisers in base stats terms, but escorts have the extra speed. This makes sci very weak. Cruisers have long been where they need to be tank wise and i don't see them suffering that much from this. Escorts have been too good. But IMHO sci have been about right and this is going to have harsh negetive effects on them. Of course if they fix tac team so sci team is viable without nerfing overall sheild tanking in the process then i can see sci clawing that back and then some.
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    diogene0 wrote: »
    I don't expect perfect balance in any game.....

    I agree that perfect balance will never occur in a game with as much choice and variables as STO has, some of which are even hidden from players and stealth changed. BUT! That does not give Cryptic a pass! I think they are so far away from balanced that its clear they're not even giving it lip service.
  • finiesfinies Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Actually They are just bringing the retro set up to the other console sets out there . Sure its a nerf .. they have to weaken the stuff we got so the new stuff is more desirable . I'm sure ( sarcasm ) they have a plan that will come together and all will be reviled and there will be great rejoicing ! But still fun game , just wish they would stop changing stuff we have been using for years now !
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I will have to disagree. Not that misinformation is bad and causes lots of unnecessary headaches, because it does. But I disagree on the part of why balance is "wild, random and messy". A dev once explained HOW they balance things. Its done against what they perceive an average player will do. Where an average player might get a 100 bonus to "X", a PvPer will naturally build around "X" to get a 300 bonus to it. This is why pvp will never work in STO as more than a nice diversion now and then. I do think PvP could be improved despite this... but it would involve pug and premades having different queues.

    I'm in full agreement but honestly the skies'll fall before we'll get a real queue system, I'm just grateful we have one at all.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • skyranger1414skyranger1414 Member Posts: 1,785 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I'm in full agreement but honestly the skies'll fall before we'll get a real queue system, I'm just grateful we have one at all.

    I hear the new and improved queue system doesn't even show how many people are queued up for each thing...... an attempt to get more people to queue up to more things since they won't know what's popping and what isn't, or a new "bonus" feature?
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    I hear the new and improved queue system doesn't even show how many people are queued up for each thing...... an attempt to get more people to queue up to more things since they won't know what's popping and what isn't, or a new "bonus" feature?

    I was on Tribble an hour or so ago and yeah, there's definitely been a big UI change to the queues... not sure about PvP since my first instinct on Tribble isn't to hit up the arenas lol

    I actually kind of like the idea of not showing how many people are queued, for exactly the possible reason you just stated... problem is that I doubt they'll fix the estimated time counter to refresh a little more often, so it's gonna be a pain trying to guess whether you'll get a game in the next century or not.
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    [9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
  • hanoverhanover Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    diogene0 wrote: »
    I'm not opposed to that change, that's just a bit harsh, but more diversity can't hurt the game. 80% of starfleet is currently using 3 parts of the borg set, that's not really diversity, and escorts are tanking too much, that's a fact.

    No, that is an opinion. The fact that crybaby cruiser captains don't like it doesn't prove anything.
    You'll do better based on your individual skills, not thanks to your gear, isn't that the purpose of a game?

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  • thlaylierahthlaylierah Member Posts: 2,987 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    How exactly do I get these new weapons to recomplete this set I worked so hard for before?

    Do I have to grind STFs for Omega marks? How many? Can you get them on normal difficulty?

    Who do I go to to trade marks for these weapons? DS9 still?

    Do I have to be lucky to get some extra rare drop like the current system?

    Edit: So I went to DS9 and the Maco vendors don't seem to sell either the Kinetic cutting beam or the Omega Plasma torpedo launcher?

    Where can I find these items? Are they not "live" on Tribble?
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    hanover2 wrote: »
    No, that is an opinion. The fact that crybaby cruiser captains don't like it doesn't prove anything..

    My two main chars are flying escorts currently, and one of them is a tac. I'm definitely not a cruiser captain, I don't use that. So when I say that escorts need a nerf I'll be the first to experience it. Because I know how much it can tank. That's insane for a dps class. :)

    In pvp i often get the first or second heal and first or second dps values in my team. At the same time. With my sci on an escort. This shouldn't happen.
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  • thisisoverlordthisisoverlord Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Regardless, nerfing this set does nothing to advance the variety and diversity of builds in this game.

    I am all for this split if it meant that the M.A.C.O set would be getting a Graviton beam power that actually did something cool, if Aegis was competitive again and if the Breen and Jem kits also benefited from an XII upgrade.

    That is what I want to see, if we're going to remove the base from which people start their STF careers they should be heading into with an Aegis/Breen/Jem set that will actually be of use in an STF.

    :cool:
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  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited October 2012
    I disagree with retro balancing being a bad idea

    I think it is a step I'n the right direction

    The Borg set is too cheep on cost compared
    To it's value currently

    You can get 5 STF data chips I'n very little time
    15 for a whole set little time the 4th piece the module
    Is easy to get

    No way something this cheep should be better
    Than a class 12 Maco omega or Khg set
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
  • outlaw51825outlaw51825 Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Escorts need the tank. Why? BECAUSE CRUISER PILOTS CANT PLAY THEIR ****ING ROLE!

    When i can pull aggro off of two Cruisers while not even using anything more than base weapons fire you KNOW there is a ****ing problem. All these cruiser pilots better learn their damned roles and start speccing for it properly or you're gonna find a lot more failed pugs when the DPS is sitting out for a minute and a half because the tanks cant even establish aggro because they SUCK THAT MUCH!

    I'm pretty sure this will cause me to fully change out my Sci and Engi stations in total on my fleet tactical because having shield options so i dont die fifty thousand times is about to be pointless. My tank has saved my life when the cruisers cant think of holding aggro and just try to be pure DPS.

    I'm also going full fleet gear for good. No sets, no more of this BS. Just full pure fleet. I'll grind it out that way rather than deal with this TRIBBLE.

    Congrats PWE and Cryptic. You've angered the playerbase in such a way i find it reminiscent of some of the EVE online nerfs and a few other games. Unfortunately for you the way the talk banters around here i wonder how much of it is actually hanging by a thread. More than i think in the other games. We'll see what happens when this makes Holodeck.
  • sirsrisirsri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2012
    Needs to be done, making new stuff EVEN more powerful than the borg set to make people finally ditch it seems like it would trivialize all existing PVE content.

    As it is my mobius is nearly unkillable in PVE, which, while fun once, is bad overall (on live)

    Edit: (on live).
  • lostusthornlostusthorn Member Posts: 844
    edited October 2012
    Escorts need the tank. Why? BECAUSE CRUISER PILOTS CANT PLAY THEIR ****ING ROLE!

    Wrong, escorts are so tanky that cruisers don't need to protect them in 99% of all cases. Which leads the cruisers to not learning how to since there is no need for them to.
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited October 2012
    Escorts need the tank. Why? BECAUSE CRUISER PILOTS CANT PLAY THEIR ****ING ROLE!

    When i can pull aggro off of two Cruisers while not even using anything more than base weapons fire you KNOW there is a ****ing problem. All these cruiser pilots better learn their damned roles and start speccing for it properly or you're gonna find a lot more failed pugs when the DPS is sitting out for a minute and a half because the tanks cant even establish aggro because they SUCK THAT MUCH!
    Perhaps there role isn't very fun and they want to
    Be able to blow up something as well so they didnt
    Waste any points I'n threat control because there is
    Little to no benefit I'n it for them


    I'm pretty sure this will cause me to fully change out my Sci and Engi stations in total on my fleet tactical because having shield options so i dont die fifty thousand times is about to be pointless. My tank has saved my life when the cruisers cant think of holding aggro and just try to be pure DPS.
    Perhaps the cruisers have spent all there skill points
    Trying to raise there very low Dps

    I'm also going full fleet gear for good. No sets, no more of this BS. Just full pure fleet. I'll grind it out that way rather than deal with this TRIBBLE.

    Congrats PWE and Cryptic. You've angered the playerbase in such a way i find it reminiscent of some of the EVE online nerfs and a few other games. Unfortunately for you the way the talk banters around here i wonder how much of it is actually hanging by a thread. More than i think in the other games. We'll see what happens when this makes Holodeck.

    Perhaps if enough Tac players try to get
    Cruiser engineers buffed up and made fun to play
    Tac skippers would jave good healers and tanks
    I'n there missions , as a cruiser skipper myself engineer
    Cruiser was so (unfun ) to play I went to escort with my
    Engineer and don't plan on returning until it's fixed.
    Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
    Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
    Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

    JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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