Same exact items, keep in mind 1 less tactical console, and the fleet patrol can have an additional science console for increased tankage. Also the Alive Crew.
I expect a lockbox ship to be better than what is readily available. The constant statements of "Jem'Hadar Attackship is an I Win Button" is misleading. The fact that I can see, is a lot of high end PvPers have Attack Ships, thus giving additional credit to the ship rather than the pilot.
But opinions?
Um... the Fleet Escort has Less Hull, Less Shields, Slower Turn Rate and Overall Speed (Which reduces its defense bonus and ability to keep on target), one fewer Engineering Console which is where your tanking really happens and, a worse BOFF layout. The ONLY advantage the Fleet Escort has is more Crew which vanish in the first Torp Hit and are irrelevant.
Now is the Bug an "I Win" button? Eeeehhh... Not really. It cannot defeat anything and everything without question in a single volley. However, is it OP? Yes. It is very much Over Powered for a ship who's claim to fame was being able to kill big cruisers by RAMMING them and thus sacrificing itself. It is Over Powered as a ship with nearly as much tank as a Cruiser but the nimbleness of a B'Rel and nearly the firepower of a Bortasqu' Tactical.
That is my opinion on this thing. Especially if you have the Jem'hadar set on it (which is a rather decent set BTW).
I have just about all the escorts in the game and most of all the other ships. They all have endearing qualities and some not so endearing lol. The bug is the one I keep coming back to because it has the grin factor, it's freaking awesome and I think a lot of the hostility towards it is from people that are just jealous. If they were sent one in the mail you can be sure they'd go silent pretty quick!
i dare you to send me one. even though i NEED the ec, i would fraps a video of me deleting it from existence. its against my principles to allow 1 of these things to exist if i had the opportunity to snuff one. they are bad for the game balance, its not ok for an anomaly thats best at everything with no disadvantages to exist in the competitive arena that is pvp.
Um... the Fleet Escort has Less Hull, Less Shields, Slower Turn Rate and Overall Speed (Which reduces its defense bonus and ability to keep on target), one fewer Engineering Console which is where your tanking really happens and, a worse BOFF layout. The ONLY advantage the Fleet Escort has is more Crew which vanish in the first Torp Hit and are irrelevant.
he can claim its more durable because it can slot more shield hp consoles :rolleyes: but no, the superior movement will do a better job keeping it alive.
Think it would be good for everyone to watch this if they have not had a chance before.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.....they only ones who should really be complaining are the KDF. The difference between 5 tac consoles on the Jem and 4 on fed escorts is 1.....that's the same difference that the Raptor will be short of vs. the new fed escorts. The shields on the Raptor are also much weaker compared to those escorts, actually compared to about anything. Turn rate? Well, honestly don't know if the turn axis point has been fixed or not. It just cracks me up to hear the complaints of the OP Jem ship when everyone is completely ok with an even more lopsided comparison of KDF escort to Fed escort.
I flew my Raptor for a Looong time all the while have a completely borked as turn axis. Had to completely modify the way I would fly and had to simply accept the fact I would never be able to out turn any fed escort or BoP I ran into. Still did ok last time I checked. I understand some people not being happy with the Jem ship but my lord....out of everything F****d up in this game this is what you guys choose to make a crusade about?
The new fed escorts will be showing up soon enough in pvp and they are going to have the same number of tac consoles. I'm not sure what the difference in shields will be but I'm guessing it's very close no? So it might turn a bit better....get over it seriously. I'd love to trade the Raptors for the Fed escort options then see how much everyone would cry. The new fleet refit Raptor has a shield modifier of like .65 or some ****.....it's ****ing terrible.
I don't know maybe most of you guys are playing FvF mostly and run into them all the time or something. On KDF side I see more feds with them then KDF that's for sure. I also see about every single fed escort having an advantage over the KDF counterparts in every match but they still play. You guys actually would have had a chance getting the Jem changed if it were merely a KDF ship but since it's not my guess you are just going to have to live with it.
Still did ok last time I checked. I understand some people not being happy with the Jem ship but my lord....out of everything F****d up in this game this is what you guys choose to make a crusade about?
its just the numbers, they are so good in every category. there is nothing like it so grossly better then the other alternatives then the bug ship is to basically every other ship. except maybe that tholian ground ice shotgun thing.
aside from the numbers, its the only escort i cant trounce fairly easily solo in my very tactical cruisers. even when i can tell the bug user isn't great, its still twice as hard to kill then any other escort. and its extra console causes TT defeating damage no other escorts can. ive fought them a hundred times, its the same thing every time. the numbers allow for it to perform way beyond anything else. the margins for effectiveness are extreamly close, the bugs much better numbers blow way beyond those margins. its much better then the users will ever admit.
The new fed escorts will be showing up soon enough in pvp and they are going to have the same number of tac consoles. I'm not sure what the difference in shields will be but I'm guessing it's very close no? So it might turn a bit better....get over it seriously. I'd love to trade the Raptors for the Fed escort options then see how much everyone would cry. The new fleet refit Raptor has a shield modifier of like .65 or some ****.....it's ****ing terrible.
don't be to discouraged about the somra, i can confirm that the saber and ktinga have a higher then listed shield mod. my ktinga is listed at .94, the tool tip on shields goes off .94, but per facing the shield mod is 1.07 not sure about the saber and somra, but its likly got a .9+ shield mod.
Um... the Fleet Escort has Less Hull, Less Shields, Slower Turn Rate and Overall Speed (Which reduces its defense bonus and ability to keep on target), one fewer Engineering Console which is where your tanking really happens and, a worse BOFF layout. The ONLY advantage the Fleet Escort has is more Crew which vanish in the first Torp Hit and are irrelevant.
Shield and Hull difference is nill.
The Engineering Consoles are exactly the same, the science console and tact consoles are different by 1.
I have to agree with dontdrunk to an extent... I don't know the exact numbers or what it is about the Jem that makes it hit so hard... the total numbers I can understand, it's just naturally going to get a lot more time on target than anything else. But apparently that fifth Tac is doing something, because without even really trying a JHAS alpha shreds through shields like they're butter. Let's say it's another ~26% purplaron... that's what, ~40 more dmg per volley? Nothing to sneeze at but I'm still not sure why it makes so much of a difference.
I tried one on Tribble a while back and even with a terrible loadout (I had blue APs... lol) I was still a little god of death. IDK.
Tbh, a fully shield buffed jhas target that has extends will give that jemmy "blue balls.
The ship is powerful, but its ugly and that's its nerf
Sadly the best way to kill it is a full team effort in some cases. The other way is a home depot run and pick up a can of raid, just don't get it near roach.
Anyone incapable of seeing how a 60 degree turn rate, with superior durability to a Fleet Escort, and 5 tac consoles is a significant advantage is not good at pvp.
Yes, it's an advantage for about the twenty millionth time, but it's not as big an advantage as it's made out to be.
We've had a number of people in this thread who have actually flown the fracking thing say so repeatedly yet still the have-nots persist with claiming it's an iWin godship.
and its extra console causes TT defeating damage no other escorts can.
'TT defeating damage'; A preposterous notion if ever I heard one. If you really believe that, the fleet defiant will also posess it, and then some.
its much better then the users will ever admit.
And not quite as good as the counter position claims.
So it's fair to say that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. [Not even counting the fact that one side has actually flown the thing]
Yes, it's an advantage for about the twenty millionth time, but it's not as big an advantage as it's made out to be.
We've had a number of people in this thread who have actually flown the fracking thing say so repeatedly yet still the have-nots persist with claiming it's an iWin godship.
'TT defeating damage'; A preposterous notion if ever I heard one. If you really believe that, the fleet defiant will also posess it, and then some.
And not quite as good as the counter position claims.
So it's fair to say that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. [Not even counting the fact that one side has actually flown the thing]
Yes it is. Tell you what, go fly an mvam for a while, against Skilled players, that have bugs. Then come back and tell us that the bug isn't all that and a bag of chips. Not an Iwin button? By your definition of Iwin maybe. Which I assume is some ludicrous "it wins the fight for me". Which I can assure you it probably does. But here's what I win really means. It means the more $ you shovel the more advantage you get. The bug represents the theoretically largest monetary investment required to get in sto. Someone opened their wallets to get it. If not you, someone else certainly did. Iwin button? no by your ludicrously stupid and extreme definition that you use to sleep better at night, no it's not. Iwin by Pay To Win standards? Oh yes yes it is. It is hands down the superior ship. That's all I'm arguing. There is no mysterious "balancing factor" to the bug. It has none. Not a single one. Sure a complete Dumb TRIBBLE will fail in one. But he'll fail far less in it than any other Escort, especially KDF side.
It's so far over the top, that there are Cruisers in this game that have lesser shield and hull point totals. It also has bar none the best Boff slot efficiency in the game with the twin universals, making it by far the best choice out of any speed ship. The only thing it can't do well is heal other ships in combat.
These are the Facts about the bug vs the next two most agile ships in the game Escort wise (you don't want me to get started on the poor bop in all of this) You can not deny this no matter how hard you try.
1: It has as many shield points as an MVAM does, when the mvam is loaded up on 3 consoles and is separated. The bug has more hull by a healthy margin as the MVAM, Non Separated, let alone separated. To equal the bugs durability the MVAM has to sacrifice effectively fifty percent of it's offense, while the bug sacrifices none of it's effectiveness.
The coming .09 shield mod for the MVAM will not make up for the shield disparity when in Command Mode, so it will still have to eat all 3 sci consoles to stay even with the bug.
It has more shield points than the Defiant with 2 consoles. And more hull and more engineering consoles. The coming new shield modifier for the Fleet Defiant, still will not give it equal shields, meaning the Bug is superior for durability.
2: It has a much better pivot point than does the MVAM seperated or not.
With 2 RCs consoles (and still has room for an Armor afterwards) It out Turns the MVAM. While still having superior HDR.
3: It has +1 tac console, and a superior boff layout to the MVAM, and the Defiant both.
The mvam, because of the Lt Cmdr tac slot being stronger than lt Cmdr Sci, and the Defiant due to the presence of not one but 2 universal slots. This one is mitigated by the coming 5th tac slots at least.
4: It has a superior Impulse Modifier to both ships, making it faster.
5: It also has better Inertia than both the Defiant and MVAM making it's ability to change direction superior, especially when coupled with 4.
6: for the MVAM to keep up, in a given dog fight, it has to blow a 10 minute cooldown, in addition to a precious console slot. The bug gets to exist, statically with super speed.
Now here's it's advantages over the Fleet Escort, and whatever it's fleet version is called.
1: It has a Far superior turnrate, while maintaining excellent durability.
2: It can mimick every single boff setup that the FE does.
3: It has +1 tac console
4: it has superior shield and hull points
5: it has a superior impulse modifier, and Inertia.
6: it possesses a better pivot point than the FE.
Now For All Escorts, speed is Survival against other Escorts. Between that and it's ludicrous to the point that having only 1 field gen is not a problem shield modifiers, it's tougher, and far more able to apply damage to a given target. If you're half as good as you think you are, you know he that wins escort fights, is he with the best agility, and shield tanking capability, if all other things are equal. Guess what ship wins that contest, hands down.
Now tell me, why does it get to be better than even the Fleet ships, fedside, let alone those sorry excuse for Fleet Ships the KDF get in their Escort and BOP Classes. Because you "ground your TRIBBLE off" for it? Tell me, what do you think we're doing for our Fleet Ships? Sitting around with our thumbs up our collective TRIBBLE? We're shoveling doffs, dilithium, skill points, EC, having to play PvE into the grinder known as the starbase. For what so people that either opened their wallet, or allegedly "ground their TRIBBLE off" can still be better.
personly if u dont have a bug ship u have no right to say its over powerd. consider every crying about it is someone who doesnt have but wants.
i have one and i think the defiant is better
As pointed out before in this thread the thought process of jealousy is wrong b/c people (including myself) know when something is that out of whack which we have (eg Phaser Procs, Kar-Fi pets etc) we tend not to use/abuse it. It doesn't take owning one to know how good it is for its role compared to everything else. It's not a jealousy thing, it's trying to avoid large imbalances P2W ships or not (again see phaser procs compared to most other procs sans polarons which is arguably just as abusive).
As others have pointed out it is by the numbers head and shoulders better than all other escorts at doing damage and being able to apply the damage not to mention it's survivablity options. By in large KDF ships have been left in the dust. I use plas leech console for the gain to make up for it. But, this doesn't mean I can't see how OP an item which can give +20-25 power consistantly is. It's a crappy solution to a real problem in terms of balance. The better solution would be to have reasonably balanced ships and consoles w/modest boosts.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Yes it is. Tell you what, go fly an mvam for a while, against Skilled players, that have bugs. Then come back and tell us that the bug isn't all that and a bag of chips. Not an Iwin button?
I have been doing so up until the point when I got my bug
What do you think I had been flying before that happened? :rolleyes:
It is hands down the superior ship. That's all I'm arguing.
There is no disagreement there, and there never has been.
It's so far over the top, that there are Cruisers in this game that have lesser shield and hull point totals.
Yeah, T4's maybe.
It also has bar none the best Boff slot efficiency in the game with the twin universals, making it by far the best choice out of any speed ship. The only thing it can't do well is heal other ships in combat.
The twin uni slots is moot. There's no point or logic in using anything other than a FE layout.
Now tell me, why does it get to be better than even the Fleet ships, fedside, let alone those sorry excuse for Fleet Ships the KDF get in their Escort and BOP Classes. Because you "ground your TRIBBLE off" for it? Tell me, what do you think we're doing for our Fleet Ships? Sitting around with our thumbs up our collective TRIBBLE? We're shoveling doffs, dilithium, skill points, EC, having to play PvE into the grinder known as the starbase. For what so people that either opened their wallet, or allegedly "ground their TRIBBLE off" can still be better.
I can't answer that question as you well know; I don't make the rules.
I can guess though. It's a lock box ship and it's meant to be better, just like the D'Kora and Galor. I don't make the rules. You should be asking Geko. If I had to guess (I'm quite sure you know the answer to this anyway), I'd suggest that the reason is that as you yourself said 'The bug represents the theoretically largest monetary investment required to get in sto'. It would be poor form to invalidate a ?200 ship (what would be the incentive to spend ?200 if it wasn't any better) weeks after getting it. With the release of fleet ships, so they buffed it by the same magnitude (it was better than it's peers before, and it is still better by the same ammount) they did the rest of the fleet ships.
I saw it coming, and I saw the associated pve grind with starbases and I made a decision to get a bug to save myself the aforementioned grind by doing it early, and in a less annoying way (you know yourself, which is more tedious to grind, ec's or pve missions).
I have been doing so up until the point when I got my bug
What do you think I had been flying before that happened? :rolleyes:
There is no disagreement there, and there never has been.
Yeah, T4's maybe.
The twin uni slots is moot. There's no point or logic in using anything other than a FE layout.
I can't answer that question as you well know; I don't make the rules.
I can guess though. It's a lock box ship and it's meant to be better, just like the D'Kora and Galor. I don't make the rules. You should be asking Geko. If I had to guess (I'm quite sure you know the answer to this anyway), I'd suggest that the reason is that as you yourself said 'The bug represents the theoretically largest monetary investment required to get in sto'. It would be poor form to invalidate a ?200 ship (what would be the incentive to spend ?200 if it wasn't any better) weeks after getting it. With the release of fleet ships, so they buffed it by the same magnitude (it was better than it's peers before, and it is still better by the same ammount) they did the rest of the fleet ships.
I saw it coming, and I saw the associated pve grind with starbases and I made a decision to get a bug to save myself the aforementioned grind by doing it early, and in a less annoying way (you know yourself, which is more tedious to grind, ec's or pve missions).
Now tell me how many bugs did you kill flown by people Skilled in the Trade before you got your own bug in light coverage situations?
I suggest you check out the Vorcha Rs SP and HP. The bug has more in both than it does. the Fleet Vorchas SP and HP are nearly even. However the Bug is still a better ship for durability due to it's agility.
There are times when you frankly don't need the sci boff. For those you can run 2 Lt Engs. That's 2 EPTS2s, or EPTS2 -and- an RSP, coupled with 1 EPTS1 and an EPTE1, or ET1.
There's also the option to go EPTS2 and DEM1. Or EPTS2 and Asif1. Or EPTS2 and Aux to damp.
Thing is the Galor and Dkora aren't better in Every Role the Cruiser is meant for than even the now venerable Assault Cruiser and Starcruisers. Both of those do Healing far better than the Galor and Dkora. Neither of them do CC duties as well as the older cruisers either. The Negvar, and even lowly Vorcha R are able to keep up in DPS, as is the Excelsior (even if the excelsis layout is abit inefficient for the role it still has > agility over the Dkora) So that excuse for the bug doesn't fly with me.
I'm more likely to chalk it up to Captain Gecko having the intelligence and mental faculties of an inbred freak child than any intentional game design, because of the bunch of lock box ships we've had up to this point the Bug is far and away the best of them in it's weight class. Even the Tholian Sci ship, isn't in all circumstances better than the Fleet Nova, or even Recon, or Intrepid, or Golfball. The Recluse, is a fantastic healer, or good solid damage ship (but incapable of matching the Karfi's sheer output potential). And the Galor and Dkora see above.
the 2k fleet ships vs a Lockbox ship there's still incentive to do one or the other in literally every single case. the Lockbox ships should represent a "quick investment and return chance". You WANT people playing your game for longer, the longer they play the more chance they have of spending $. People also often spend far far more than 2k zen points on a fleet ship due to the Doff investment required, Dilith investments as well.
Tbh, a fully shield buffed jhas target that has extends will give that jemmy "blue balls.
The ship is powerful, but its ugly and that's its nerf
Sadly the best way to kill it is a full team effort in some cases. The other way is a home depot run and pick up a can of raid, just don't get it near roach.
What, raid or the bug? Lol. Roach and the bug should have a perfect harmony...
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
If two people of equal skill face off in a 1v1 and one of them has Mk XII very rare weapons, while the other has common Mk X's, is that an equally undeserved victory for the better equipped player? Or is it the fault of the lesser equipped player for not being better prepared?
The difference is that Mk XII gear drops in the game still, and are "re-stocked" for want of a better term, add to that the fact fleet weapons can be stocked at will rather than waiting or shopping for the right drop. The JHAS on the other hand exists in a fixed quantity and will diminish. Supply will never exceed demand, especially with a growing player base, which is why the prices are as high as they are. You can't grind it, you can't buy it on the C-store, you can't craft it, and you can't get it in a loot drop. Production has ceased for all intents and purposes.
If something's going to be so demonstrably superior, and in all honesty, the JHAS could be toned down and still comfortably keep it's crown as King of the 'scorts, it shouldn't be something that's limited, but that everyone can grind for or buy. I know they're on the exchange from time to time, but that's hardly adequate availability for something that is a class-beater like no other ship in this game is. The D'kora and Galor don't outclass other cruisers in the same way the bug does, because they don't exceed it so much in their primary attributes, they also give up something elsewhere for their improvements in agility or firepower. So while you're not getting the "oooh, it looks cool" factor 'cos it's different, it's not like cruiser drivers are losing out on the "top end" of their ship roster.
I'm still at a loss as to why there are no "almost as good" escorts on the Fleet roster, especially KDF side. I'd have thought the Sabre and Somraw would be primary candidates for more agile than normal escorts, although they seem to've been relegated to "Well, we'll let you fly it at tier 5, but don't expect it to be good" territory.
In short, I don't mind it being awesome, but the Fleet roster was the chance to put stuff in that would've also been awesome, if different so's not to tread on it's toes. The Galor and D'kora are different, but have equally different and effective fleet and C-store cruisers to fly alongside. The Orb Weaver is the same, as is the Recluse. The JHAS is alone in that it totally outclasses it's class, even when it comes to the C-store.
We've had a number of people in this thread who have actually flown the fracking thing say so repeatedly yet still the have-nots persist with claiming it's an iWin godship.
Statements like this tend to polarize. For example they make me think to myself...
I don't have one, yet I have not called it OP.
Then I ruminate to myself...
I mean one could argue that the entire concept of OP is relative. That when something has all the advantages with little to no drawbacks and everyone, from have nots like me to haves like you, flat out agree it is the best. Well you could say it has earned a little ire just on merit of being the best, having most of the best traits, and few tradeoffs for those wonderful traits.
I have not called that OP but some might argue that relative to the opposition, it is.
I would not call it an example of "prefect imbalance" that's for sure.
Seeing that I have nearly popped one flown by a better than average player, with my sub-par tourney spec, (as in no +1 consoles), Garumba, I will quit playing devils advocate now and not call it flat out OP.
pi "no better than an average PvP'er" wright.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
The difference is that Mk XII gear drops in the game still, and are "re-stocked" for want of a better term, add to that the fact fleet weapons can be stocked at will rather than waiting or shopping for the right drop. The JHAS on the other hand exists in a fixed quantity and will diminish. Supply will never exceed demand, especially with a growing player base, which is why the prices are as high as they are. You can't grind it, you can't buy it on the C-store, you can't craft it, and you can't get it in a loot drop. Production has ceased for all intents and purposes.
If you want to grind purple MK XII gear to PvP you will never actually PvP because all your time will be spent trying to get the drops. Then you have to hope you get the right energy type and the right weapon and the right modifiers. If you are going for a specific weapon of a specific energy type with specific modifiers it is practically impossible to get them through gameplay. I find it hard to believe anyone has ever done this, and then on top of that being able to create the specific purple XII consoles you will want at your on-board engineer with strange alien artifacts you got from doffing. It's not going to happen.
I was thinking about switching to purple XII phasers, but when when I searched the exchange there was only 1 DHC with Accx3 and it was 125 mil. EC. So even though the supply may replenish, their drop rate is so low and demand so high that their supply is lower than that of the Jem Bug. It would cost around ONE BILLION EC to equip yourself with the best DHCs, turrets, and consoles, which is a lot more than the Jem Bug. Everything in STO is P2W, whether it be through EC or Zen. So why aren't you people complaining about people that are running better weapons/consoles than you can afford since they are actually more expensive and harder to obtain than the Jem Bug?
So, guys, what is your solution and how do you plan to implement it?
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
Ok, and as for the second part of my question - how do you plan to implement it?
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
And how do you plan on implementing it? Surely Cryptic aren't going to listen to you...
Why on earth would they nerf the ship after all this time?
Unless you can get every bug ship user to stop commanding or captaining their ship, I think all this whining isn't doing anything for the 'problem.'
I have a FPEscort and it's awesome. I've killed plenty of Jems with it.
I really don't think complaining about something that you can't change is very productive...
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
Now tell me, why does it get to be better than even the Fleet ships, fedside, let alone those sorry excuse for Fleet Ships the KDF get in their Escort and BOP Classes. Because you "ground your TRIBBLE off" for it? Tell me, what do you think we're doing for our Fleet Ships? Sitting around with our thumbs up our collective TRIBBLE? We're shoveling doffs, dilithium, skill points, EC, having to play PvE into the grinder known as the starbase. For what so people that either opened their wallet, or allegedly "ground their TRIBBLE off" can still be better.
Yes, because, KDF can't have Jem'hadar Attack Ships O.O
Yes, because, KDF can't have Jem'hadar Attack Ships O.O
To play devil's advocate
How does the suggestion Drunk made not balance the ship? This answer also has to be more detailed then "It might allow me to be killed more."
and for the second part, that is a red herring. It has never been in contention that KDF can't get the ship. But it also makes no sense to talk about alternatives to the bug as if the KDF has access to Fed Fleet ships. As such each side has other alternatives, and compared to the Feds the alternatives on the KDF side are sorely lacking.
How does the suggestion Drunk made not balance the ship? This answer also has to be more detailed then "It might allow me to be killed more."
and for the second part, that is a red herring. It has never been in contention that KDF can't get the ship. But it also makes no sense to talk about alternatives to the bug as if the KDF has access to Fed Fleet ships. As such each side has other alternatives, and compared to the Feds the alternatives on the KDF side are sorely lacking.
I'll sum up this with, does the Attack Ship have a Battle Cloak?
The Attack Ship is/was equally available for both sides, the amount of players is irrelevant as the KDF faction, no matter how hard it tries, will always have less than the federation side. More Defiants, Less BoPs, More Cat Carriers, less Shrimp Boats, and so on.
he can claim its more durable because it can slot more shield hp consoles :rolleyes: but no, the superior movement will do a better job keeping it alive.
She can claim in this case and indeed Dodging and reducing damage > Shield or Hull HP. Also with more Eng Consoles you get more Resistance and if your resists are high enough then it can be a nightmare to kill you.
The Engineering Consoles are exactly the same, the science console and tact consoles are different by 1.
The BOFF layout is exactly what is needed "worse"
The difference in Hull and Shield may be minor but when you factor in the enormous speed and turn rate difference even a little difference becomes a lot of difference especially when you also add in that Engineering console which grants more resistance to that little bit of extra Hull.
Consoles:
Bug| T: 5, E: 4, S: 1
FE| T: 4, E: 3, S: 2
They are not the same.
The Bug has 2 Universal Lt. Boffs whereas the Fleet Escort is stuck with its setup. You can argue that the Fleet Escort's setup is ideal anyway but the flexibility of the Bug is a boon. There is a reason people love the Bird of Prey.
I have to agree with dontdrunk to an extent... I don't know the exact numbers or what it is about the Jem that makes it hit so hard... the total numbers I can understand, it's just naturally going to get a lot more time on target than anything else. But apparently that fifth Tac is doing something, because without even really trying a JHAS alpha shreds through shields like they're butter. Let's say it's another ~26% purplaron... that's what, ~40 more dmg per volley? Nothing to sneeze at but I'm still not sure why it makes so much of a difference.
I tried one on Tribble a while back and even with a terrible loadout (I had blue APs... lol) I was still a little god of death. IDK.
I suspect part of it is Polarons. Yes, that 5th console does add a very noticeable damage boost, which I enjoy on my Bortasqu', but the Jemmy Set also adds more damage ontop of that and what most forget is that when Polarons are eating your shield Power the Resistance and Regeneration of those shields goes down. My Bird of Prey uses a Polaron setup and I can rip away most anyone's shields as long as no one is using Extend Shields on them because I can quickly bleed off all their Resistance and Regen and then dealing enough damage to wipe out a facing or 4 is rather easy. The Bug can do this even better and deal significantly more damage while it is at it.
@ghostyandfrosty I find myself unable to disagree with you in any fashion really. Well said.
So, guys, what is your solution and how do you plan to implement it?
I am with Don'tdrunk as to a solution and the Devs would have to implement it. It is all just a pipe dream however as it will not be fixed. Their real "Solution" will be to eventually release something in an up coming Lock Box that is even more blatantly OP then the Bug and make it even harder to obtain.
For my part, I do not really care that much either way about what does or does not become of the Bug. My only issue is that people do not smugly sit back and rest in the mistaken belief that the Bug is somehow on-par with other ships of its class. If you use it and are awesome with it then you ARE benefiting from the fact that it is blatantly superior to every other ship in its class. You may also be a very skilled pilot but do not presume that your ship is having no effect on your success. That would be the same as suggesting that one man armed with a Blunderbus and another with a Mordern Auto-Shotgun are basically equal and that their equipment will not factor in to how well they can kill things. It is an argument that simply flies in the face of all logic.
As for myself, I will gladly eat my own medicine here when it comes to my Odyssey. I consider myself a very skilled pilot but that thing is a true beast and I do not do the things I do with that ship simply because I am some kind of Unbelievably awesome, I do those things because I am skilled and my Ship is immensely powerful. After all it also clearly dominates all other ships in its class much like the Bug does. (Though Canonically it does have a MUCH better reason for doing that.)
She can claim in this case and indeed Dodging and reducing damage > Shield or Hull HP. Also with more Eng Consoles you get more Resistance and if your resists are high enough then it can be a nightmare to kill you.
I'd like to see you prove that, more speed = more shield/hull as a number rather than a miss, mathematically.
So if I have more speed, I have more defense, now I have 2.0 shield modifier, and 50% hull improvement? Shame that doesn't actually make sense, you need to treat the two separately as the game does in fact do. There are all kinds of variables to take into account when equating defense and speed.
Also, this is a discussion thread between Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship, not Fleet Escort and Attack Ship. The Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship have the same amount of engineering consoles. Also you are wrong, the Fleet Escort also has 4 Engineering Consoles.
Comparing a not [Fleet] Branded ship with other [Fleet] branded or lockbox ships, isn't very wise.
By the way the Fleet Escort ALSO has exactly what is needed for a boff layout and so doe the escort retro I still can't see what is so great about Fleet Escort Retro though.
I'll sum up this with, does the Attack Ship have a Battle Cloak?
The Attack Ship is/was equally available for both sides, the amount of players is irrelevant as the KDF faction, no matter how hard it tries, will always have less than the federation side. More Defiants, Less BoPs, More Cat Carriers, less Shrimp Boats, and so on.
The latter part of your post is irrelevant as to how much of a red herring this is. It is not about a lack of options it is about how horrid those options are. As I said it makes no sense comparing alternatives using only Fed Fleet ships when the KDF has no access to them. So I am still wondering why it is relevant to mention the KDF can have the bug when that hasn't been the point to being with.
For the other part...battle cloak again? Really? The only ship that has it has weaker shields, weaker hull, less weapons, less tac consoles, a lower impulse mod, and a Boff load out that is comparable to the bug (missing an Engisn in the case of the Hoh'Sus) and only arguably better in the case of the Ning'tao considering it has the hull of a shuttle.
Also really stop using battle cloak as a scapegoat. It's not that hard to overcome at all. Especially not when it is on a ship with the hull strength of paper.
Comments
Um... the Fleet Escort has Less Hull, Less Shields, Slower Turn Rate and Overall Speed (Which reduces its defense bonus and ability to keep on target), one fewer Engineering Console which is where your tanking really happens and, a worse BOFF layout. The ONLY advantage the Fleet Escort has is more Crew which vanish in the first Torp Hit and are irrelevant.
Now is the Bug an "I Win" button? Eeeehhh... Not really. It cannot defeat anything and everything without question in a single volley. However, is it OP? Yes. It is very much Over Powered for a ship who's claim to fame was being able to kill big cruisers by RAMMING them and thus sacrificing itself. It is Over Powered as a ship with nearly as much tank as a Cruiser but the nimbleness of a B'Rel and nearly the firepower of a Bortasqu' Tactical.
That is my opinion on this thing. Especially if you have the Jem'hadar set on it (which is a rather decent set BTW).
http://www.stowiki.org/Fleet_Escort
http://www.stowiki.org/Jem%27Hadar_Attack_Ship
i dare you to send me one. even though i NEED the ec, i would fraps a video of me deleting it from existence. its against my principles to allow 1 of these things to exist if i had the opportunity to snuff one. they are bad for the game balance, its not ok for an anomaly thats best at everything with no disadvantages to exist in the competitive arena that is pvp.
he can claim its more durable because it can slot more shield hp consoles :rolleyes: but no, the superior movement will do a better job keeping it alive.
Think it would be good for everyone to watch this if they have not had a chance before.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.....they only ones who should really be complaining are the KDF. The difference between 5 tac consoles on the Jem and 4 on fed escorts is 1.....that's the same difference that the Raptor will be short of vs. the new fed escorts. The shields on the Raptor are also much weaker compared to those escorts, actually compared to about anything. Turn rate? Well, honestly don't know if the turn axis point has been fixed or not. It just cracks me up to hear the complaints of the OP Jem ship when everyone is completely ok with an even more lopsided comparison of KDF escort to Fed escort.
I flew my Raptor for a Looong time all the while have a completely borked as turn axis. Had to completely modify the way I would fly and had to simply accept the fact I would never be able to out turn any fed escort or BoP I ran into. Still did ok last time I checked. I understand some people not being happy with the Jem ship but my lord....out of everything F****d up in this game this is what you guys choose to make a crusade about?
The new fed escorts will be showing up soon enough in pvp and they are going to have the same number of tac consoles. I'm not sure what the difference in shields will be but I'm guessing it's very close no? So it might turn a bit better....get over it seriously. I'd love to trade the Raptors for the Fed escort options then see how much everyone would cry. The new fleet refit Raptor has a shield modifier of like .65 or some ****.....it's ****ing terrible.
I don't know maybe most of you guys are playing FvF mostly and run into them all the time or something. On KDF side I see more feds with them then KDF that's for sure. I also see about every single fed escort having an advantage over the KDF counterparts in every match but they still play. You guys actually would have had a chance getting the Jem changed if it were merely a KDF ship but since it's not my guess you are just going to have to live with it.
its just the numbers, they are so good in every category. there is nothing like it so grossly better then the other alternatives then the bug ship is to basically every other ship. except maybe that tholian ground ice shotgun thing.
aside from the numbers, its the only escort i cant trounce fairly easily solo in my very tactical cruisers. even when i can tell the bug user isn't great, its still twice as hard to kill then any other escort. and its extra console causes TT defeating damage no other escorts can. ive fought them a hundred times, its the same thing every time. the numbers allow for it to perform way beyond anything else. the margins for effectiveness are extreamly close, the bugs much better numbers blow way beyond those margins. its much better then the users will ever admit.
don't be to discouraged about the somra, i can confirm that the saber and ktinga have a higher then listed shield mod. my ktinga is listed at .94, the tool tip on shields goes off .94, but per facing the shield mod is 1.07 not sure about the saber and somra, but its likly got a .9+ shield mod.
my analysis here
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=5391291&postcount=30
Shield and Hull difference is nill.
The Engineering Consoles are exactly the same, the science console and tact consoles are different by 1.
The BOFF layout is exactly what is needed "worse"
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
I tried one on Tribble a while back and even with a terrible loadout (I had blue APs... lol) I was still a little god of death. IDK.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
The ship is powerful, but its ugly and that's its nerf
Sadly the best way to kill it is a full team effort in some cases. The other way is a home depot run and pick up a can of raid, just don't get it near roach.
Yes, it's an advantage for about the twenty millionth time, but it's not as big an advantage as it's made out to be.
We've had a number of people in this thread who have actually flown the fracking thing say so repeatedly yet still the have-nots persist with claiming it's an iWin godship.
'TT defeating damage'; A preposterous notion if ever I heard one. If you really believe that, the fleet defiant will also posess it, and then some.
And not quite as good as the counter position claims.
So it's fair to say that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. [Not even counting the fact that one side has actually flown the thing]
Yes it is. Tell you what, go fly an mvam for a while, against Skilled players, that have bugs. Then come back and tell us that the bug isn't all that and a bag of chips. Not an Iwin button? By your definition of Iwin maybe. Which I assume is some ludicrous "it wins the fight for me". Which I can assure you it probably does. But here's what I win really means. It means the more $ you shovel the more advantage you get. The bug represents the theoretically largest monetary investment required to get in sto. Someone opened their wallets to get it. If not you, someone else certainly did. Iwin button? no by your ludicrously stupid and extreme definition that you use to sleep better at night, no it's not. Iwin by Pay To Win standards? Oh yes yes it is. It is hands down the superior ship. That's all I'm arguing. There is no mysterious "balancing factor" to the bug. It has none. Not a single one. Sure a complete Dumb TRIBBLE will fail in one. But he'll fail far less in it than any other Escort, especially KDF side.
It's so far over the top, that there are Cruisers in this game that have lesser shield and hull point totals. It also has bar none the best Boff slot efficiency in the game with the twin universals, making it by far the best choice out of any speed ship. The only thing it can't do well is heal other ships in combat.
These are the Facts about the bug vs the next two most agile ships in the game Escort wise (you don't want me to get started on the poor bop in all of this) You can not deny this no matter how hard you try.
1: It has as many shield points as an MVAM does, when the mvam is loaded up on 3 consoles and is separated. The bug has more hull by a healthy margin as the MVAM, Non Separated, let alone separated. To equal the bugs durability the MVAM has to sacrifice effectively fifty percent of it's offense, while the bug sacrifices none of it's effectiveness.
The coming .09 shield mod for the MVAM will not make up for the shield disparity when in Command Mode, so it will still have to eat all 3 sci consoles to stay even with the bug.
It has more shield points than the Defiant with 2 consoles. And more hull and more engineering consoles. The coming new shield modifier for the Fleet Defiant, still will not give it equal shields, meaning the Bug is superior for durability.
2: It has a much better pivot point than does the MVAM seperated or not.
With 2 RCs consoles (and still has room for an Armor afterwards) It out Turns the MVAM. While still having superior HDR.
3: It has +1 tac console, and a superior boff layout to the MVAM, and the Defiant both.
The mvam, because of the Lt Cmdr tac slot being stronger than lt Cmdr Sci, and the Defiant due to the presence of not one but 2 universal slots. This one is mitigated by the coming 5th tac slots at least.
4: It has a superior Impulse Modifier to both ships, making it faster.
5: It also has better Inertia than both the Defiant and MVAM making it's ability to change direction superior, especially when coupled with 4.
6: for the MVAM to keep up, in a given dog fight, it has to blow a 10 minute cooldown, in addition to a precious console slot. The bug gets to exist, statically with super speed.
Now here's it's advantages over the Fleet Escort, and whatever it's fleet version is called.
1: It has a Far superior turnrate, while maintaining excellent durability.
2: It can mimick every single boff setup that the FE does.
3: It has +1 tac console
4: it has superior shield and hull points
5: it has a superior impulse modifier, and Inertia.
6: it possesses a better pivot point than the FE.
Now For All Escorts, speed is Survival against other Escorts. Between that and it's ludicrous to the point that having only 1 field gen is not a problem shield modifiers, it's tougher, and far more able to apply damage to a given target. If you're half as good as you think you are, you know he that wins escort fights, is he with the best agility, and shield tanking capability, if all other things are equal. Guess what ship wins that contest, hands down.
Now tell me, why does it get to be better than even the Fleet ships, fedside, let alone those sorry excuse for Fleet Ships the KDF get in their Escort and BOP Classes. Because you "ground your TRIBBLE off" for it? Tell me, what do you think we're doing for our Fleet Ships? Sitting around with our thumbs up our collective TRIBBLE? We're shoveling doffs, dilithium, skill points, EC, having to play PvE into the grinder known as the starbase. For what so people that either opened their wallet, or allegedly "ground their TRIBBLE off" can still be better.
i have one and i think the defiant is better
As pointed out before in this thread the thought process of jealousy is wrong b/c people (including myself) know when something is that out of whack which we have (eg Phaser Procs, Kar-Fi pets etc) we tend not to use/abuse it. It doesn't take owning one to know how good it is for its role compared to everything else. It's not a jealousy thing, it's trying to avoid large imbalances P2W ships or not (again see phaser procs compared to most other procs sans polarons which is arguably just as abusive).
As others have pointed out it is by the numbers head and shoulders better than all other escorts at doing damage and being able to apply the damage not to mention it's survivablity options. By in large KDF ships have been left in the dust. I use plas leech console for the gain to make up for it. But, this doesn't mean I can't see how OP an item which can give +20-25 power consistantly is. It's a crappy solution to a real problem in terms of balance. The better solution would be to have reasonably balanced ships and consoles w/modest boosts.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Tbh, the turnrate makes it king as said 9k times. Let's be honest you fly a defiant because:
1)tired of hate tells
2)cloak alpha thrills
3)you have an awesome healer to keep your glass cannon alive.
Personally I would not go into a pug premade ( no true premades left) with a defiant.
What do you think I had been flying before that happened? :rolleyes:
There is no disagreement there, and there never has been.
Yeah, T4's maybe.
The twin uni slots is moot. There's no point or logic in using anything other than a FE layout.
I can't answer that question as you well know; I don't make the rules.
I can guess though. It's a lock box ship and it's meant to be better, just like the D'Kora and Galor. I don't make the rules. You should be asking Geko. If I had to guess (I'm quite sure you know the answer to this anyway), I'd suggest that the reason is that as you yourself said 'The bug represents the theoretically largest monetary investment required to get in sto'. It would be poor form to invalidate a ?200 ship (what would be the incentive to spend ?200 if it wasn't any better) weeks after getting it. With the release of fleet ships, so they buffed it by the same magnitude (it was better than it's peers before, and it is still better by the same ammount) they did the rest of the fleet ships.
I saw it coming, and I saw the associated pve grind with starbases and I made a decision to get a bug to save myself the aforementioned grind by doing it early, and in a less annoying way (you know yourself, which is more tedious to grind, ec's or pve missions).
Now tell me how many bugs did you kill flown by people Skilled in the Trade before you got your own bug in light coverage situations?
I suggest you check out the Vorcha Rs SP and HP. The bug has more in both than it does. the Fleet Vorchas SP and HP are nearly even. However the Bug is still a better ship for durability due to it's agility.
There are times when you frankly don't need the sci boff. For those you can run 2 Lt Engs. That's 2 EPTS2s, or EPTS2 -and- an RSP, coupled with 1 EPTS1 and an EPTE1, or ET1.
There's also the option to go EPTS2 and DEM1. Or EPTS2 and Asif1. Or EPTS2 and Aux to damp.
Thing is the Galor and Dkora aren't better in Every Role the Cruiser is meant for than even the now venerable Assault Cruiser and Starcruisers. Both of those do Healing far better than the Galor and Dkora. Neither of them do CC duties as well as the older cruisers either. The Negvar, and even lowly Vorcha R are able to keep up in DPS, as is the Excelsior (even if the excelsis layout is abit inefficient for the role it still has > agility over the Dkora) So that excuse for the bug doesn't fly with me.
I'm more likely to chalk it up to Captain Gecko having the intelligence and mental faculties of an inbred freak child than any intentional game design, because of the bunch of lock box ships we've had up to this point the Bug is far and away the best of them in it's weight class. Even the Tholian Sci ship, isn't in all circumstances better than the Fleet Nova, or even Recon, or Intrepid, or Golfball. The Recluse, is a fantastic healer, or good solid damage ship (but incapable of matching the Karfi's sheer output potential). And the Galor and Dkora see above.
the 2k fleet ships vs a Lockbox ship there's still incentive to do one or the other in literally every single case. the Lockbox ships should represent a "quick investment and return chance". You WANT people playing your game for longer, the longer they play the more chance they have of spending $. People also often spend far far more than 2k zen points on a fleet ship due to the Doff investment required, Dilith investments as well.
What, raid or the bug? Lol. Roach and the bug should have a perfect harmony...
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
The difference is that Mk XII gear drops in the game still, and are "re-stocked" for want of a better term, add to that the fact fleet weapons can be stocked at will rather than waiting or shopping for the right drop. The JHAS on the other hand exists in a fixed quantity and will diminish. Supply will never exceed demand, especially with a growing player base, which is why the prices are as high as they are. You can't grind it, you can't buy it on the C-store, you can't craft it, and you can't get it in a loot drop. Production has ceased for all intents and purposes.
If something's going to be so demonstrably superior, and in all honesty, the JHAS could be toned down and still comfortably keep it's crown as King of the 'scorts, it shouldn't be something that's limited, but that everyone can grind for or buy. I know they're on the exchange from time to time, but that's hardly adequate availability for something that is a class-beater like no other ship in this game is. The D'kora and Galor don't outclass other cruisers in the same way the bug does, because they don't exceed it so much in their primary attributes, they also give up something elsewhere for their improvements in agility or firepower. So while you're not getting the "oooh, it looks cool" factor 'cos it's different, it's not like cruiser drivers are losing out on the "top end" of their ship roster.
I'm still at a loss as to why there are no "almost as good" escorts on the Fleet roster, especially KDF side. I'd have thought the Sabre and Somraw would be primary candidates for more agile than normal escorts, although they seem to've been relegated to "Well, we'll let you fly it at tier 5, but don't expect it to be good" territory.
In short, I don't mind it being awesome, but the Fleet roster was the chance to put stuff in that would've also been awesome, if different so's not to tread on it's toes. The Galor and D'kora are different, but have equally different and effective fleet and C-store cruisers to fly alongside. The Orb Weaver is the same, as is the Recluse. The JHAS is alone in that it totally outclasses it's class, even when it comes to the C-store.
God knows how we won the Dominion War.:D
Statements like this tend to polarize. For example they make me think to myself...
I don't have one, yet I have not called it OP.
Then I ruminate to myself...
I mean one could argue that the entire concept of OP is relative. That when something has all the advantages with little to no drawbacks and everyone, from have nots like me to haves like you, flat out agree it is the best. Well you could say it has earned a little ire just on merit of being the best, having most of the best traits, and few tradeoffs for those wonderful traits.
I have not called that OP but some might argue that relative to the opposition, it is.
I would not call it an example of "prefect imbalance" that's for sure.
Seeing that I have nearly popped one flown by a better than average player, with my sub-par tourney spec, (as in no +1 consoles), Garumba, I will quit playing devils advocate now and not call it flat out OP.
pi "no better than an average PvP'er" wright.
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
If you want to grind purple MK XII gear to PvP you will never actually PvP because all your time will be spent trying to get the drops. Then you have to hope you get the right energy type and the right weapon and the right modifiers. If you are going for a specific weapon of a specific energy type with specific modifiers it is practically impossible to get them through gameplay. I find it hard to believe anyone has ever done this, and then on top of that being able to create the specific purple XII consoles you will want at your on-board engineer with strange alien artifacts you got from doffing. It's not going to happen.
I was thinking about switching to purple XII phasers, but when when I searched the exchange there was only 1 DHC with Accx3 and it was 125 mil. EC. So even though the supply may replenish, their drop rate is so low and demand so high that their supply is lower than that of the Jem Bug. It would cost around ONE BILLION EC to equip yourself with the best DHCs, turrets, and consoles, which is a lot more than the Jem Bug. Everything in STO is P2W, whether it be through EC or Zen. So why aren't you people complaining about people that are running better weapons/consoles than you can afford since they are actually more expensive and harder to obtain than the Jem Bug?
@DevolvedOne
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
Ok, and as for the second part of my question - how do you plan to implement it?
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
And how do you plan on implementing it? Surely Cryptic aren't going to listen to you...
Why on earth would they nerf the ship after all this time?
Unless you can get every bug ship user to stop commanding or captaining their ship, I think all this whining isn't doing anything for the 'problem.'
I have a FPEscort and it's awesome. I've killed plenty of Jems with it.
I really don't think complaining about something that you can't change is very productive...
Yeah, you care about game balance.
Yes, because, KDF can't have Jem'hadar Attack Ships O.O
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
To play devil's advocate
How does the suggestion Drunk made not balance the ship? This answer also has to be more detailed then "It might allow me to be killed more."
and for the second part, that is a red herring. It has never been in contention that KDF can't get the ship. But it also makes no sense to talk about alternatives to the bug as if the KDF has access to Fed Fleet ships. As such each side has other alternatives, and compared to the Feds the alternatives on the KDF side are sorely lacking.
I'll sum up this with, does the Attack Ship have a Battle Cloak?
The Attack Ship is/was equally available for both sides, the amount of players is irrelevant as the KDF faction, no matter how hard it tries, will always have less than the federation side. More Defiants, Less BoPs, More Cat Carriers, less Shrimp Boats, and so on.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
She can claim in this case and indeed Dodging and reducing damage > Shield or Hull HP. Also with more Eng Consoles you get more Resistance and if your resists are high enough then it can be a nightmare to kill you.
The difference in Hull and Shield may be minor but when you factor in the enormous speed and turn rate difference even a little difference becomes a lot of difference especially when you also add in that Engineering console which grants more resistance to that little bit of extra Hull.
Consoles:
Bug| T: 5, E: 4, S: 1
FE| T: 4, E: 3, S: 2
They are not the same.
The Bug has 2 Universal Lt. Boffs whereas the Fleet Escort is stuck with its setup. You can argue that the Fleet Escort's setup is ideal anyway but the flexibility of the Bug is a boon. There is a reason people love the Bird of Prey.
I suspect part of it is Polarons. Yes, that 5th console does add a very noticeable damage boost, which I enjoy on my Bortasqu', but the Jemmy Set also adds more damage ontop of that and what most forget is that when Polarons are eating your shield Power the Resistance and Regeneration of those shields goes down. My Bird of Prey uses a Polaron setup and I can rip away most anyone's shields as long as no one is using Extend Shields on them because I can quickly bleed off all their Resistance and Regen and then dealing enough damage to wipe out a facing or 4 is rather easy. The Bug can do this even better and deal significantly more damage while it is at it.
@ghostyandfrosty I find myself unable to disagree with you in any fashion really. Well said.
I am with Don'tdrunk as to a solution and the Devs would have to implement it. It is all just a pipe dream however as it will not be fixed. Their real "Solution" will be to eventually release something in an up coming Lock Box that is even more blatantly OP then the Bug and make it even harder to obtain.
For my part, I do not really care that much either way about what does or does not become of the Bug. My only issue is that people do not smugly sit back and rest in the mistaken belief that the Bug is somehow on-par with other ships of its class. If you use it and are awesome with it then you ARE benefiting from the fact that it is blatantly superior to every other ship in its class. You may also be a very skilled pilot but do not presume that your ship is having no effect on your success. That would be the same as suggesting that one man armed with a Blunderbus and another with a Mordern Auto-Shotgun are basically equal and that their equipment will not factor in to how well they can kill things. It is an argument that simply flies in the face of all logic.
As for myself, I will gladly eat my own medicine here when it comes to my Odyssey. I consider myself a very skilled pilot but that thing is a true beast and I do not do the things I do with that ship simply because I am some kind of Unbelievably awesome, I do those things because I am skilled and my Ship is immensely powerful. After all it also clearly dominates all other ships in its class much like the Bug does. (Though Canonically it does have a MUCH better reason for doing that.)
There we go.
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
I'd like to see you prove that, more speed = more shield/hull as a number rather than a miss, mathematically.
So if I have more speed, I have more defense, now I have 2.0 shield modifier, and 50% hull improvement? Shame that doesn't actually make sense, you need to treat the two separately as the game does in fact do. There are all kinds of variables to take into account when equating defense and speed.
Also, this is a discussion thread between Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship, not Fleet Escort and Attack Ship. The Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship have the same amount of engineering consoles. Also you are wrong, the Fleet Escort also has 4 Engineering Consoles.
Comparing a not [Fleet] Branded ship with other [Fleet] branded or lockbox ships, isn't very wise.
By the way the Fleet Escort ALSO has exactly what is needed for a boff layout and so doe the escort retro
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
The latter part of your post is irrelevant as to how much of a red herring this is. It is not about a lack of options it is about how horrid those options are. As I said it makes no sense comparing alternatives using only Fed Fleet ships when the KDF has no access to them. So I am still wondering why it is relevant to mention the KDF can have the bug when that hasn't been the point to being with.
For the other part...battle cloak again? Really? The only ship that has it has weaker shields, weaker hull, less weapons, less tac consoles, a lower impulse mod, and a Boff load out that is comparable to the bug (missing an Engisn in the case of the Hoh'Sus) and only arguably better in the case of the Ning'tao considering it has the hull of a shuttle.
Also really stop using battle cloak as a scapegoat. It's not that hard to overcome at all. Especially not when it is on a ship with the hull strength of paper.