The difference is that Mk XII gear drops in the game still, and are "re-stocked" for want of a better term, add to that the fact fleet weapons can be stocked at will rather than waiting or shopping for the right drop. The JHAS on the other hand exists in a fixed quantity and will diminish. Supply will never exceed demand, especially with a growing player base, which is why the prices are as high as they are. You can't grind it, you can't buy it on the C-store, you can't craft it, and you can't get it in a loot drop. Production has ceased for all intents and purposes.
If you want to grind purple MK XII gear to PvP you will never actually PvP because all your time will be spent trying to get the drops. Then you have to hope you get the right energy type and the right weapon and the right modifiers. If you are going for a specific weapon of a specific energy type with specific modifiers it is practically impossible to get them through gameplay. I find it hard to believe anyone has ever done this, and then on top of that being able to create the specific purple XII consoles you will want at your on-board engineer with strange alien artifacts you got from doffing. It's not going to happen.
I was thinking about switching to purple XII phasers, but when when I searched the exchange there was only 1 DHC with Accx3 and it was 125 mil. EC. So even though the supply may replenish, their drop rate is so low and demand so high that their supply is lower than that of the Jem Bug. It would cost around ONE BILLION EC to equip yourself with the best DHCs, turrets, and consoles, which is a lot more than the Jem Bug. Everything in STO is P2W, whether it be through EC or Zen. So why aren't you people complaining about people that are running better weapons/consoles than you can afford since they are actually more expensive and harder to obtain than the Jem Bug?
So, guys, what is your solution and how do you plan to implement it?
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
Ok, and as for the second part of my question - how do you plan to implement it?
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
And how do you plan on implementing it? Surely Cryptic aren't going to listen to you...
Why on earth would they nerf the ship after all this time?
Unless you can get every bug ship user to stop commanding or captaining their ship, I think all this whining isn't doing anything for the 'problem.'
I have a FPEscort and it's awesome. I've killed plenty of Jems with it.
I really don't think complaining about something that you can't change is very productive...
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
Now tell me, why does it get to be better than even the Fleet ships, fedside, let alone those sorry excuse for Fleet Ships the KDF get in their Escort and BOP Classes. Because you "ground your TRIBBLE off" for it? Tell me, what do you think we're doing for our Fleet Ships? Sitting around with our thumbs up our collective TRIBBLE? We're shoveling doffs, dilithium, skill points, EC, having to play PvE into the grinder known as the starbase. For what so people that either opened their wallet, or allegedly "ground their TRIBBLE off" can still be better.
Yes, because, KDF can't have Jem'hadar Attack Ships O.O
Yes, because, KDF can't have Jem'hadar Attack Ships O.O
To play devil's advocate
How does the suggestion Drunk made not balance the ship? This answer also has to be more detailed then "It might allow me to be killed more."
and for the second part, that is a red herring. It has never been in contention that KDF can't get the ship. But it also makes no sense to talk about alternatives to the bug as if the KDF has access to Fed Fleet ships. As such each side has other alternatives, and compared to the Feds the alternatives on the KDF side are sorely lacking.
How does the suggestion Drunk made not balance the ship? This answer also has to be more detailed then "It might allow me to be killed more."
and for the second part, that is a red herring. It has never been in contention that KDF can't get the ship. But it also makes no sense to talk about alternatives to the bug as if the KDF has access to Fed Fleet ships. As such each side has other alternatives, and compared to the Feds the alternatives on the KDF side are sorely lacking.
I'll sum up this with, does the Attack Ship have a Battle Cloak?
The Attack Ship is/was equally available for both sides, the amount of players is irrelevant as the KDF faction, no matter how hard it tries, will always have less than the federation side. More Defiants, Less BoPs, More Cat Carriers, less Shrimp Boats, and so on.
he can claim its more durable because it can slot more shield hp consoles :rolleyes: but no, the superior movement will do a better job keeping it alive.
She can claim in this case and indeed Dodging and reducing damage > Shield or Hull HP. Also with more Eng Consoles you get more Resistance and if your resists are high enough then it can be a nightmare to kill you.
The Engineering Consoles are exactly the same, the science console and tact consoles are different by 1.
The BOFF layout is exactly what is needed "worse"
The difference in Hull and Shield may be minor but when you factor in the enormous speed and turn rate difference even a little difference becomes a lot of difference especially when you also add in that Engineering console which grants more resistance to that little bit of extra Hull.
Consoles:
Bug| T: 5, E: 4, S: 1
FE| T: 4, E: 3, S: 2
They are not the same.
The Bug has 2 Universal Lt. Boffs whereas the Fleet Escort is stuck with its setup. You can argue that the Fleet Escort's setup is ideal anyway but the flexibility of the Bug is a boon. There is a reason people love the Bird of Prey.
I have to agree with dontdrunk to an extent... I don't know the exact numbers or what it is about the Jem that makes it hit so hard... the total numbers I can understand, it's just naturally going to get a lot more time on target than anything else. But apparently that fifth Tac is doing something, because without even really trying a JHAS alpha shreds through shields like they're butter. Let's say it's another ~26% purplaron... that's what, ~40 more dmg per volley? Nothing to sneeze at but I'm still not sure why it makes so much of a difference.
I tried one on Tribble a while back and even with a terrible loadout (I had blue APs... lol) I was still a little god of death. IDK.
I suspect part of it is Polarons. Yes, that 5th console does add a very noticeable damage boost, which I enjoy on my Bortasqu', but the Jemmy Set also adds more damage ontop of that and what most forget is that when Polarons are eating your shield Power the Resistance and Regeneration of those shields goes down. My Bird of Prey uses a Polaron setup and I can rip away most anyone's shields as long as no one is using Extend Shields on them because I can quickly bleed off all their Resistance and Regen and then dealing enough damage to wipe out a facing or 4 is rather easy. The Bug can do this even better and deal significantly more damage while it is at it.
@ghostyandfrosty I find myself unable to disagree with you in any fashion really. Well said.
So, guys, what is your solution and how do you plan to implement it?
I am with Don'tdrunk as to a solution and the Devs would have to implement it. It is all just a pipe dream however as it will not be fixed. Their real "Solution" will be to eventually release something in an up coming Lock Box that is even more blatantly OP then the Bug and make it even harder to obtain.
For my part, I do not really care that much either way about what does or does not become of the Bug. My only issue is that people do not smugly sit back and rest in the mistaken belief that the Bug is somehow on-par with other ships of its class. If you use it and are awesome with it then you ARE benefiting from the fact that it is blatantly superior to every other ship in its class. You may also be a very skilled pilot but do not presume that your ship is having no effect on your success. That would be the same as suggesting that one man armed with a Blunderbus and another with a Mordern Auto-Shotgun are basically equal and that their equipment will not factor in to how well they can kill things. It is an argument that simply flies in the face of all logic.
As for myself, I will gladly eat my own medicine here when it comes to my Odyssey. I consider myself a very skilled pilot but that thing is a true beast and I do not do the things I do with that ship simply because I am some kind of Unbelievably awesome, I do those things because I am skilled and my Ship is immensely powerful. After all it also clearly dominates all other ships in its class much like the Bug does. (Though Canonically it does have a MUCH better reason for doing that.)
She can claim in this case and indeed Dodging and reducing damage > Shield or Hull HP. Also with more Eng Consoles you get more Resistance and if your resists are high enough then it can be a nightmare to kill you.
I'd like to see you prove that, more speed = more shield/hull as a number rather than a miss, mathematically.
So if I have more speed, I have more defense, now I have 2.0 shield modifier, and 50% hull improvement? Shame that doesn't actually make sense, you need to treat the two separately as the game does in fact do. There are all kinds of variables to take into account when equating defense and speed.
Also, this is a discussion thread between Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship, not Fleet Escort and Attack Ship. The Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship have the same amount of engineering consoles. Also you are wrong, the Fleet Escort also has 4 Engineering Consoles.
Comparing a not [Fleet] Branded ship with other [Fleet] branded or lockbox ships, isn't very wise.
By the way the Fleet Escort ALSO has exactly what is needed for a boff layout and so doe the escort retro I still can't see what is so great about Fleet Escort Retro though.
I'll sum up this with, does the Attack Ship have a Battle Cloak?
The Attack Ship is/was equally available for both sides, the amount of players is irrelevant as the KDF faction, no matter how hard it tries, will always have less than the federation side. More Defiants, Less BoPs, More Cat Carriers, less Shrimp Boats, and so on.
The latter part of your post is irrelevant as to how much of a red herring this is. It is not about a lack of options it is about how horrid those options are. As I said it makes no sense comparing alternatives using only Fed Fleet ships when the KDF has no access to them. So I am still wondering why it is relevant to mention the KDF can have the bug when that hasn't been the point to being with.
For the other part...battle cloak again? Really? The only ship that has it has weaker shields, weaker hull, less weapons, less tac consoles, a lower impulse mod, and a Boff load out that is comparable to the bug (missing an Engisn in the case of the Hoh'Sus) and only arguably better in the case of the Ning'tao considering it has the hull of a shuttle.
Also really stop using battle cloak as a scapegoat. It's not that hard to overcome at all. Especially not when it is on a ship with the hull strength of paper.
The latter part of your post is irrelevant as to how much of a red herring this is.
Actually my logic is intact, he wanted to nerf the Attack Ship to BoP levels, you defended him, I pointed out the Attack Ship doesn't have a cloak. Pure logic, red herring no.
Actually my logic is intact, he wanted to nerf the Attack Ship to BoP levels, you defended him, I pointed out the Attack Ship doesn't have a cloak. Pure logic, red herring no.
Which only makes sense if you don't consider all the advantages I just listed for the bug, you would in effect be taking 2 away from 6, and that would only be relevant to the Hoh'sus as it would still have better hull then the ning'tao. Not to mention, as has been explained to you before, or tried, battle cloak is not a huge advantage given how much the BoP gives up. Not when the bug would have a Boff Loadout with an extra ensign compared to the BoP with more tactical consoles, more engineering consoles, 2 less sci consoles, a better impulse mod, a turn rate 1 point lower, and more weapons.
Which only makes sense if you don't consider all the advantages
Other than a 5th tact console, what advantages would attack ship have over the fleet hos with his proposed nerfs? Or did you forget about all those universal boff slots? and built in battle cloak?
Which only makes sense if you don't consider all the advantages
Other than a 5th tact console, what advantages would attack ship have over the fleet hos with his proposed nerfs? Or did you forget about all those universal boff slots? and built in battle cloak?
Other than a 5th tact console, what advantages would attack ship have over the fleet hos? Or did you forget about all those universal boff slots? and built in battle cloak?
Aside from being faster, having more weapons, similar maneuverability, more damage output, higher resists due to more engi consoles, the same repair rate, and a Boff loadout that the BoP might emulate if not going for spike damage (except it can't as the bug has an extra ensign)? The Universal slots are at most now a novelty, but they are no longer novel. And if a BoP were to battlecloak against a Bug sporting the damage advantage it is without getting out of range first then it would more or less pop in the middle of cloaking.
If you want to grind purple MK XII gear to PvP you will never actually PvP because all your time will be spent trying to get the drops. Then you have to hope you get the right energy type and the right weapon and the right modifiers. If you are going for a specific weapon of a specific energy type with specific modifiers it is practically impossible to get them through gameplay. I find it hard to believe anyone has ever done this, and then on top of that being able to create the specific purple XII consoles you will want at your on-board engineer with strange alien artifacts you got from doffing. It's not going to happen.
I was thinking about switching to purple XII phasers, but when when I searched the exchange there was only 1 DHC with Accx3 and it was 125 mil. EC. So even though the supply may replenish, their drop rate is so low and demand so high that their supply is lower than that of the Jem Bug. It would cost around ONE BILLION EC to equip yourself with the best DHCs, turrets, and consoles, which is a lot more than the Jem Bug. Everything in STO is P2W, whether it be through EC or Zen. So why aren't you people complaining about people that are running better weapons/consoles than you can afford since they are actually more expensive and harder to obtain than the Jem Bug?
This ^^^^.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
The Fleet Defiant will be here soon enough, then the Bug will be just another very powerful Escort. Personally I think the Bug should have 6 TAC consoles and another Sci so that it is clearly superior to the Fleet ships otherwise why would anyone wast $hundreds trying to win it when they can just get a fleet ship for a few quid.
I have bad news.
The fleet Defiant didn't get the shield buff it was supposed to. A fleet Saber (.77 Shield Mod) actually has more shields than the fleet Defiant (.9 Shield Mod). Screenshots posted below that illustrate what I'm talking about. I'm using Maco Mk XI shields and 2 Mk XII Purple Field generators in each example. In fact, the Fleet Defiant has the exact same shield modifier as the Defiant-R does which means it didn't get a 10% fleet bonus to shields at all.
The fleet Nova (1.11 Shield Mod) also somehow managed to get the same shield capacity numbers as the fleet Recon (1.43 Shield Mod). I'm coming in at over 14k total shield capacity on both ships (identical numbers) whilst both equipped with the same gear (Maco shields Mk XII and 1 Mk XII Purple Field generator). The Fleet Nova's actual shield numbers should be much lower than the Fleet Recon but this isn't the case.
Score it up to Geko's copy and paste work. Way to be thorough.
'TT defeating damage'; A preposterous notion if ever I heard one. If you really believe that, the fleet defiant will also posess it, and then some.
there goes my lieing eyes again, i really need to stop believing what i see in real time in front of me. in case it isn't clear, TT defeating damage is damage that is so abrupt, and so heavy that TT cant transfer shields to the facing being hit faster then the damage cancels it out. the result is enough damage makes it to your hull to remove 50% of it, wile the rest of your shields are mostly intact, trying desperately to out pace incoming damage.
secret panda hax below:
ok i don't know if this is an official panda hax or just a well kept secret of those that have figure it out, but any escort can 'defeat TT', hell i could proboly do it in my fleet vorcha. it is done by flying really fast at your target, nearly outpacing the speed of your DHC shots so they all land at once. TT cant out pace every one of those shots hitting at basically the same 2 or 3 server ticks. sorry if i just blew that secret, but im all about full disclosure.
from what ive experienced, the bug doesn't even need to use that hax to defeat TT, but when it does, thats when your hulls half gone after the first volley. a bug going fast enough, and with a delicate enough user, can have turned around in time to fire the second volley in the same manner as the first was fired, and the 3rd, and the 4th.
this is in the category of advanced reasons why the bug is an overpowered i win button. the tactics that it can use, and ONLY it can use because of all of its 1 better then everything else stats. BOPs and kinda but not really the defiant can do the same, and the ones that do are the really dangerous ones, but the bops has a large damage penalty, and the defiant aint quite maneuverable to pull it off easily. the bug can do it MUCH easier then the defiant, and deal MUCH more damage then a bop doing it.
yes, i do. oh that was sarcasm. if you cared about balance you wouldn't be ok with an escort that is better at absolutely everything without a single weakness.
how in the slightest is this a valid question? the only answer i can give is a cant do a damn thing except put it out there on the forum.
That's my point. The continuous rambling about the Bug being OP is plain stupid. Cryptic is not going to turn around and nerf it as you've suggested. You and the others that are doing this are only making yourselves look like whiny kids. The Bug has been out for almost a whole year now, and has received what? A buff. Take that as a message that Cryptic will not be balancing it with the other escorts.
That's my point. The continuous rambling about the Bug being OP is plain stupid. Cryptic is not going to turn around and nerf it as you've suggested. You and the others that are doing this are only making yourselves look like whiny kids. The Bug has been out for almost a whole year now, and has received what? A buff. Take that as a message that Cryptic will not be balancing it with the other escorts.
if theres 1 thing ive learned about posting balance and bug issues in this forum, its that a dev listens and addresses the problem.
The Bug has been out for almost a whole year now, and has received what? A buff. Take that as a message that Cryptic will not be balancing it with the other escorts.
Could not agree with this more.
This isn't the first
'WAHH WAHH, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship Is Sah OP, I WANTZ NERF NAOW!' thread...
(to your credit Mewi I know it didn't start that way but it's what it has become )
I see the logic here, if they've buffed it, I see no reason for them to nerf it because people say so, unless you wortk for Cryptic there is nothing you can do about it except cry OP.
I had a duel with bug ship in Kerrat. I was in my B'rel and he was a surian science in his bug. Nowwe had quite interesting match as he could sensor scan to decloak me while I could unleash torpedo hell at him. He was unable to take me down and same with me.
Point is that you are not dead if you know how to attack and when to attack if you are in brel at least.
Grinding for MkIV epic gear?
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
Why not go a bit further? Take off 20k and get it down to the level of the Fleet Norgh BoP! 16,500HP, just the same as a To'Duj Fighter! (that's 1,500 HP LESS than a Thoron Shuttle FYI) Sure, F-Norgh has a 0.66 shield modifier where the To'Duj has a 0.5 but still....
Why should the Bug have more HP than the F-Norgh? It has more boffs, more consoles, better turnrate, better inertia, more weapons and a LOT more shields. Fleet Nogh has cloak and one higher boff station. This spells an insane advantage to the Bug! I think they would be better balanced by having the same HP.
[Just to make a point of just how useless the KDF fleet ships are. Saying the Bug will be in line once the Feds get their fleet ships isn't much of a point. Just proves the new AE/Defiant are also out of line. Right?
Yes, I DO see what I'm saying here. I know it would be a joke to actually do this. I just want to make a point of the fact that we're comparing the Bug to the arguably OP new fed escorts. Comparing two OP items and finding them equal does not mean they're not OP. Especially when the new fleet escorts are not available to one faction.
So, guys, what is your solution and how do you plan to implement it?
I'd remove about 7k hp, and change the shield modifier to what the Fleet Sabers is. We've already seen that in this game apparently speed means you lose durability. This means of course I would bring the Sabers agility up to par with the Defiant. (not the bug) This gives bug owners an advantage over Early fleet ships, but not the mid grade and above. (and the Saber and it would be fairly comparable at that point)
It'll never happen of course, because Cryptic is Faceroller Friendly. And the facerollers have spoken, the bug is apparently not OP despite having all of the advantages I previously posted.
Comments
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
If you want to grind purple MK XII gear to PvP you will never actually PvP because all your time will be spent trying to get the drops. Then you have to hope you get the right energy type and the right weapon and the right modifiers. If you are going for a specific weapon of a specific energy type with specific modifiers it is practically impossible to get them through gameplay. I find it hard to believe anyone has ever done this, and then on top of that being able to create the specific purple XII consoles you will want at your on-board engineer with strange alien artifacts you got from doffing. It's not going to happen.
I was thinking about switching to purple XII phasers, but when when I searched the exchange there was only 1 DHC with Accx3 and it was 125 mil. EC. So even though the supply may replenish, their drop rate is so low and demand so high that their supply is lower than that of the Jem Bug. It would cost around ONE BILLION EC to equip yourself with the best DHCs, turrets, and consoles, which is a lot more than the Jem Bug. Everything in STO is P2W, whether it be through EC or Zen. So why aren't you people complaining about people that are running better weapons/consoles than you can afford since they are actually more expensive and harder to obtain than the Jem Bug?
@DevolvedOne
hack 10k hitpoints off it, lower its shield mod to .85 and its good. it can be the fastest, most maneuverable, heaviest damage dealer, but its got to pay for it by being as fragile as it was in canon. it still makes the bop look like a joke in comparison, but at least it has more in common with it
Ok, and as for the second part of my question - how do you plan to implement it?
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
And how do you plan on implementing it? Surely Cryptic aren't going to listen to you...
Why on earth would they nerf the ship after all this time?
Unless you can get every bug ship user to stop commanding or captaining their ship, I think all this whining isn't doing anything for the 'problem.'
I have a FPEscort and it's awesome. I've killed plenty of Jems with it.
I really don't think complaining about something that you can't change is very productive...
Yeah, you care about game balance.
Yes, because, KDF can't have Jem'hadar Attack Ships O.O
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
To play devil's advocate
How does the suggestion Drunk made not balance the ship? This answer also has to be more detailed then "It might allow me to be killed more."
and for the second part, that is a red herring. It has never been in contention that KDF can't get the ship. But it also makes no sense to talk about alternatives to the bug as if the KDF has access to Fed Fleet ships. As such each side has other alternatives, and compared to the Feds the alternatives on the KDF side are sorely lacking.
I'll sum up this with, does the Attack Ship have a Battle Cloak?
The Attack Ship is/was equally available for both sides, the amount of players is irrelevant as the KDF faction, no matter how hard it tries, will always have less than the federation side. More Defiants, Less BoPs, More Cat Carriers, less Shrimp Boats, and so on.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
She can claim in this case and indeed Dodging and reducing damage > Shield or Hull HP. Also with more Eng Consoles you get more Resistance and if your resists are high enough then it can be a nightmare to kill you.
The difference in Hull and Shield may be minor but when you factor in the enormous speed and turn rate difference even a little difference becomes a lot of difference especially when you also add in that Engineering console which grants more resistance to that little bit of extra Hull.
Consoles:
Bug| T: 5, E: 4, S: 1
FE| T: 4, E: 3, S: 2
They are not the same.
The Bug has 2 Universal Lt. Boffs whereas the Fleet Escort is stuck with its setup. You can argue that the Fleet Escort's setup is ideal anyway but the flexibility of the Bug is a boon. There is a reason people love the Bird of Prey.
I suspect part of it is Polarons. Yes, that 5th console does add a very noticeable damage boost, which I enjoy on my Bortasqu', but the Jemmy Set also adds more damage ontop of that and what most forget is that when Polarons are eating your shield Power the Resistance and Regeneration of those shields goes down. My Bird of Prey uses a Polaron setup and I can rip away most anyone's shields as long as no one is using Extend Shields on them because I can quickly bleed off all their Resistance and Regen and then dealing enough damage to wipe out a facing or 4 is rather easy. The Bug can do this even better and deal significantly more damage while it is at it.
@ghostyandfrosty I find myself unable to disagree with you in any fashion really. Well said.
I am with Don'tdrunk as to a solution and the Devs would have to implement it. It is all just a pipe dream however as it will not be fixed. Their real "Solution" will be to eventually release something in an up coming Lock Box that is even more blatantly OP then the Bug and make it even harder to obtain.
For my part, I do not really care that much either way about what does or does not become of the Bug. My only issue is that people do not smugly sit back and rest in the mistaken belief that the Bug is somehow on-par with other ships of its class. If you use it and are awesome with it then you ARE benefiting from the fact that it is blatantly superior to every other ship in its class. You may also be a very skilled pilot but do not presume that your ship is having no effect on your success. That would be the same as suggesting that one man armed with a Blunderbus and another with a Mordern Auto-Shotgun are basically equal and that their equipment will not factor in to how well they can kill things. It is an argument that simply flies in the face of all logic.
As for myself, I will gladly eat my own medicine here when it comes to my Odyssey. I consider myself a very skilled pilot but that thing is a true beast and I do not do the things I do with that ship simply because I am some kind of Unbelievably awesome, I do those things because I am skilled and my Ship is immensely powerful. After all it also clearly dominates all other ships in its class much like the Bug does. (Though Canonically it does have a MUCH better reason for doing that.)
There we go.
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
I'd like to see you prove that, more speed = more shield/hull as a number rather than a miss, mathematically.
So if I have more speed, I have more defense, now I have 2.0 shield modifier, and 50% hull improvement? Shame that doesn't actually make sense, you need to treat the two separately as the game does in fact do. There are all kinds of variables to take into account when equating defense and speed.
Also, this is a discussion thread between Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship, not Fleet Escort and Attack Ship. The Fleet Patrol Escort and Attack Ship have the same amount of engineering consoles. Also you are wrong, the Fleet Escort also has 4 Engineering Consoles.
Comparing a not [Fleet] Branded ship with other [Fleet] branded or lockbox ships, isn't very wise.
By the way the Fleet Escort ALSO has exactly what is needed for a boff layout and so doe the escort retro
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
The latter part of your post is irrelevant as to how much of a red herring this is. It is not about a lack of options it is about how horrid those options are. As I said it makes no sense comparing alternatives using only Fed Fleet ships when the KDF has no access to them. So I am still wondering why it is relevant to mention the KDF can have the bug when that hasn't been the point to being with.
For the other part...battle cloak again? Really? The only ship that has it has weaker shields, weaker hull, less weapons, less tac consoles, a lower impulse mod, and a Boff load out that is comparable to the bug (missing an Engisn in the case of the Hoh'Sus) and only arguably better in the case of the Ning'tao considering it has the hull of a shuttle.
Also really stop using battle cloak as a scapegoat. It's not that hard to overcome at all. Especially not when it is on a ship with the hull strength of paper.
Actually my logic is intact, he wanted to nerf the Attack Ship to BoP levels, you defended him, I pointed out the Attack Ship doesn't have a cloak. Pure logic, red herring no.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Which only makes sense if you don't consider all the advantages I just listed for the bug, you would in effect be taking 2 away from 6, and that would only be relevant to the Hoh'sus as it would still have better hull then the ning'tao. Not to mention, as has been explained to you before, or tried, battle cloak is not a huge advantage given how much the BoP gives up. Not when the bug would have a Boff Loadout with an extra ensign compared to the BoP with more tactical consoles, more engineering consoles, 2 less sci consoles, a better impulse mod, a turn rate 1 point lower, and more weapons.
Other than a 5th tact console, what advantages would attack ship have over the fleet hos with his proposed nerfs? Or did you forget about all those universal boff slots? and built in battle cloak?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Other than a 5th tact console, what advantages would attack ship have over the fleet hos with his proposed nerfs? Or did you forget about all those universal boff slots? and built in battle cloak?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Aside from being faster, having more weapons, similar maneuverability, more damage output, higher resists due to more engi consoles, the same repair rate, and a Boff loadout that the BoP might emulate if not going for spike damage (except it can't as the bug has an extra ensign)? The Universal slots are at most now a novelty, but they are no longer novel. And if a BoP were to battlecloak against a Bug sporting the damage advantage it is without getting out of range first then it would more or less pop in the middle of cloaking.
This ^^^^.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I have bad news.
The fleet Defiant didn't get the shield buff it was supposed to. A fleet Saber (.77 Shield Mod) actually has more shields than the fleet Defiant (.9 Shield Mod). Screenshots posted below that illustrate what I'm talking about. I'm using Maco Mk XI shields and 2 Mk XII Purple Field generators in each example. In fact, the Fleet Defiant has the exact same shield modifier as the Defiant-R does which means it didn't get a 10% fleet bonus to shields at all.
The fleet Nova (1.11 Shield Mod) also somehow managed to get the same shield capacity numbers as the fleet Recon (1.43 Shield Mod). I'm coming in at over 14k total shield capacity on both ships (identical numbers) whilst both equipped with the same gear (Maco shields Mk XII and 1 Mk XII Purple Field generator). The Fleet Nova's actual shield numbers should be much lower than the Fleet Recon but this isn't the case.
Score it up to Geko's copy and paste work. Way to be thorough.
Fleet Defiant http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/treasurem_1975/screenshot_2012-08-26-22-50-26.jpg
Defiant R http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/treasurem_1975/screenshot_2012-08-17-09-06-18-1.jpg
Fleet Saber http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k246/treasurem_1975/screenshot_2012-08-17-08-57-56-1.jpg
there goes my lieing eyes again, i really need to stop believing what i see in real time in front of me. in case it isn't clear, TT defeating damage is damage that is so abrupt, and so heavy that TT cant transfer shields to the facing being hit faster then the damage cancels it out. the result is enough damage makes it to your hull to remove 50% of it, wile the rest of your shields are mostly intact, trying desperately to out pace incoming damage.
secret panda hax below:
ok i don't know if this is an official panda hax or just a well kept secret of those that have figure it out, but any escort can 'defeat TT', hell i could proboly do it in my fleet vorcha. it is done by flying really fast at your target, nearly outpacing the speed of your DHC shots so they all land at once. TT cant out pace every one of those shots hitting at basically the same 2 or 3 server ticks. sorry if i just blew that secret, but im all about full disclosure.
from what ive experienced, the bug doesn't even need to use that hax to defeat TT, but when it does, thats when your hulls half gone after the first volley. a bug going fast enough, and with a delicate enough user, can have turned around in time to fire the second volley in the same manner as the first was fired, and the 3rd, and the 4th.
this is in the category of advanced reasons why the bug is an overpowered i win button. the tactics that it can use, and ONLY it can use because of all of its 1 better then everything else stats. BOPs and kinda but not really the defiant can do the same, and the ones that do are the really dangerous ones, but the bops has a large damage penalty, and the defiant aint quite maneuverable to pull it off easily. the bug can do it MUCH easier then the defiant, and deal MUCH more damage then a bop doing it.
how in the slightest is this a valid question? the only answer i can give is a cant do a damn thing except put it out there on the forum.
yes, i do. oh that was sarcasm. if you cared about balance you wouldn't be ok with an escort that is better at absolutely everything without a single weakness.
That's my point. The continuous rambling about the Bug being OP is plain stupid. Cryptic is not going to turn around and nerf it as you've suggested. You and the others that are doing this are only making yourselves look like whiny kids. The Bug has been out for almost a whole year now, and has received what? A buff. Take that as a message that Cryptic will not be balancing it with the other escorts.
@f4tamy | Sad Pandas
if theres 1 thing ive learned about posting balance and bug issues in this forum, its that a dev listens and addresses the problem.
...What bug issues? I see no bugs...apart from the ones people worked hard to get.
You know? The ones that deserve to be better than your ship because it's a Lockbox ship?
Could not agree with this more.
This isn't the first
'WAHH WAHH, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship Is Sah OP, I WANTZ NERF NAOW!' thread...
(to your credit Mewi I know it didn't start that way but it's what it has become
I see the logic here, if they've buffed it, I see no reason for them to nerf it because people say so, unless you wortk for Cryptic there is nothing you can do about it except cry OP.
Point is that you are not dead if you know how to attack and when to attack if you are in brel at least.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
only by 10k?
Why not go a bit further? Take off 20k and get it down to the level of the Fleet Norgh BoP! 16,500HP, just the same as a To'Duj Fighter!
Why should the Bug have more HP than the F-Norgh? It has more boffs, more consoles, better turnrate, better inertia, more weapons and a LOT more shields. Fleet Nogh has cloak and one higher boff station. This spells an insane advantage to the Bug! I think they would be better balanced by having the same HP.
[Just to make a point of just how useless the KDF fleet ships are. Saying the Bug will be in line once the Feds get their fleet ships isn't much of a point. Just proves the new AE/Defiant are also out of line. Right?
Yes, I DO see what I'm saying here. I know it would be a joke to actually do this. I just want to make a point of the fact that we're comparing the Bug to the arguably OP new fed escorts. Comparing two OP items and finding them equal does not mean they're not OP. Especially when the new fleet escorts are not available to one faction.
I know... it's all just so... wrong...
"We're the KDF! We're known and feared for out tanky escorts!"
I'd remove about 7k hp, and change the shield modifier to what the Fleet Sabers is. We've already seen that in this game apparently speed means you lose durability. This means of course I would bring the Sabers agility up to par with the Defiant. (not the bug) This gives bug owners an advantage over Early fleet ships, but not the mid grade and above. (and the Saber and it would be fairly comparable at that point)
It'll never happen of course, because Cryptic is Faceroller Friendly. And the facerollers have spoken, the bug is apparently not OP despite having all of the advantages I previously posted.