Honestly this entire conversation reminds me of when people used to ba ba ba BOP... is BS OP TRIBBLE. It can out turn anything. Of course after 4 or 5 more ships got released the BOP ain't so OP anymore right.
I will say this... they should have taken the recent bump it got with the 5th console and waited 1-2 months after season 6 to release it... this way they would have had more of the fleet ships in the wild first.... also they may have even sold a few more fleet ship to people that owned bugs... hahaha
Frankly if you don't like the bug don't worry... we are close to another doff pack promotions or something that will drop a small handful of them back into the system... Cryptic will use it to drive a weekend sale here soon enough.
We are most probably a month away from the end of the tholian box as well... the sales are starting to die down... anyone have any bets how good this next lock box Escort is going to be... lets be honest another escort is due up right.
You want an advantage, to compensate for your lack of ability. You're willing to shell out oodles of money to get it. What happens when cryptic does it again, and makes something more powerful than your ship. What are you going to then? Open your wallet again?
I'll ignore the rest of your rant and focus strictly on this one for now.
So I have a lack of ability do I? Under what data do you reason that statement with? Your complete lack of PvPing me in-game? Like Never? Even once?
Oh that is right, you think Attack Ship is an I-Win Button. Why? ? A lot of PvPers on this forum, spend 99% of their time in teams, this is highly limiting to the ability aspect, it forces you to rely on others whilst fighting a target. This is a fundamentally flawed way to balance a game, one must first know what it is like to fight those that do NOT do teams ( at least not all of the time ). Then they will know just what it is like.
Your clear lack of understanding on how Fleet starbase system works is clear. But let us ignore that for a second, you are going on a rant that "Oh Yeah well I worked hard to get it" comment. Now by that logic, you leveled up to get that RA ship, you felt like you worked hard for it? Should then, all ships be equal to the RA ship because you felt like you worked so hard to get it?
Now back to StarBases, you don't need to pump in endless resources, just enough to get 20k Fleet Credits, which if you aren't completely incompetent at this game, is an easy task to do. Then all you need is a fleet with the specific tier and permissions to buy from their store. Yeah, real challenging there, you don't even have to do anything for the fleet. ( Unless they require it, which will be rare )
Also I'll point out that most of everything that pops up in C-Store can also be bought off of the exchange. Including Ship modules, Attack Ships, Your dads TV, etc.
If you can't handle the heat, get out of the warp core.
Funny, when I spend twenty to sixty dollars for a game, I get a full product, that in most cases, I have a hard copy of. Not... you shell out sixty dollars for something that once the game dies and STO will die, you'll never get to use it again. If you want to be Stupid and spend hundreds of dollars for a Ship, go right ahead. But that doesn't mean you get to have in game advantages (or shouldn't) over someone that spent less than you because they had more sense than you. Or if you do feel that way, maybe you should have aimed abit higher than what you got since you don't feel it's superior enough.
Other people might say spending much money on a car is stupid. STO is a hobby and hey even gambling could be a hobby. So if someone has fun in opening lockboxes or buying ships, why the hell not. If you start selling your children it gets questionable but if you can afford it...
You should never try to tell people they are stupid for having fun their way.
The problem is something else. If you do pvp people often see it as a sport. And in sports you expect more or less equal chances due to equipment. If in boxing someone would put spikes on his gloves he would get an unfair advantage. Players want to measure their skills and not lose to a player with less skill because they could not afford some equipment.
Now that being said its still an MMO. There will always be differences, like some have MK XI and others MKXII. Small advantages are ok and if you have to pay to get them it is ok for me too. But the advantages shouldnt get too big. A little P2W is ok, it finances this game but I think the bug is a little too good. Not unbeatable but just a little too good.
The problem is something else. If you do pvp people often see it as a sport. And in sports you expect more or less equal chances due to equipment. If in boxing someone would put spikes on his gloves he would get an unfair advantage. Players want to measure their skills and not lose to a player with less skill because they could not afford some equipment.
Frankly that right there is sort of funny... there are different levels of sport clearly.
No one uses the best of the best equip in a weekend league... however I have played Hockey with guys that have spent $500 on a stick. Another that had a $700 pair of skates... I doubt they bought those because they felt they where equal to my $50 bauer skates and my old Canadian Tire Sherwood.
If you look at ANY professional sport... yes they spend thousands of dollars on equipment. How many of you golf and wouldn't like to upgrade your set of clubs ? In EVERY sport this is true... even in junk no one cares about, look at the olympics they barred swimmers from using there multi thousand dollar slick suites, ect ect ect.
Its Sport and people equip themselves the best they can.... HOWEVER... Wayne Gretzky would **** face with MY old sherwood... if Tiger woods was to show up at a golf course and pick up a set of rentals, do any of us think because we just picked up a new set of Callaways we would kick his backside ??? Come on gear is a nice bump but in any sport, people will look for that little extra bump... and frankly with or with out the cream always rises.
Originally Posted by aetam1
The problem is something else. If you do pvp people often see it as a sport. And in sports you expect more or less equal chances due to equipment. If in boxing someone would put spikes on his gloves he would get an unfair advantage. Players want to measure their skills and not lose to a player with less skill because they could not afford some equipment.
Even in sports, you don't do squat if you don't have the financial means. Money makes the world spin around man, lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Of course in every sport there are different lvls of equipment but for it to remain interesting it should be a measurement of skill not items. If you spend 500$ on a Hockey stick it will only help you if you know how to use it. It might provide an advantage but at a certain skill lvl I suppose all are using something like that. If you could win every game by simply getting a better stick no one would be interested in the sport.
I have no problem with people spending money to get the bug, or AMS, or things like that. I just feel the bug got a little too much love but it is not game breaking.
the balance in this game should be like the rules in any professional sport. every conceivable thing is regulated so no one has an unfair advantage. in game there should be parameters that can only be exceeded if you give something up. advantages with disadvantages. something different but not necessarily better. anything less creates a replacement for skill, but if the skilled use that replacement for skill, the fair chance to win is gone. the competitive aspect has been removed and the compotition is made meaningless. the only winning move is not to play.
to go with the beyond parameter offense and mobility, it should have a defensive penalty, thats even canon. say 25k hitpoints and a .83 shield mod. go ahead and have 5 tac consoles, 4 eng consoles and a 20 turn rate, you give something up for that. its still worth trying to get, its offensive ability is unparalleled, just being different and better in a few ways is enough for it to be desirable.
i frankly dont care if all you bug users are of the opinion that it is not game breaking, your definition of game breaking must be very different from mine. removing a fair chance in a situation were you are apposing another ship is game breaking as far as im concerned.
Honestly this entire conversation reminds me of when people used to ba ba ba BOP... is BS OP TRIBBLE. It can out turn anything. Of course after 4 or 5 more ships got released the BOP ain't so OP anymore right.
I will say this... they should have taken the recent bump it got with the 5th console and waited 1-2 months after season 6 to release it... this way they would have had more of the fleet ships in the wild first.... also they may have even sold a few more fleet ship to people that owned bugs... hahaha
Frankly if you don't like the bug don't worry... we are close to another doff pack promotions or something that will drop a small handful of them back into the system... Cryptic will use it to drive a weekend sale here soon enough.
We are most probably a month away from the end of the tholian box as well... the sales are starting to die down... anyone have any bets how good this next lock box Escort is going to be... lets be honest another escort is due up right.
there was frankly rightful cause for the bug to be called op, a LONG time ago now. back when sci could run amok, the long stuns during an alpha were death sentence, there was no distributing TT, shield striping was functional, all that kind of stuff. a bop cant do a quarter of the stuff it used to be able to do, and on top of that there is a federation only escort that can use all the bops best station combinations. claims that the bop was op ALWAYS being bs is an exaggeration. at least in this case the bop gave up a dramatic amount of survivability for its advantages. thanks to F2P and the unchecked power creep, any attempt to balance advantages with disadvantages has been abandon, and the bop is a sad relic of a better time.
Eh the Bug is no more op then any of the 200 cruisers that have been released that are better then the star cruiser.
Honestly you will find me in the ques in my bug... and the first time I get into a match that doesn't have a....
Bortas... Or Oddy.... Or Fleet Vorcha... Or Galor... Or dkora... Or Excel... Or Even a Dread
I'll put my bug in the garage... and get my old advanced escort out... hahaha
You can all look forward to seeing my bug for awhile I think.
Frankly having to fire at a cruiser for 20 min before it gets into any real trouble is far more game breaking then my bug having 7% more DPS then my advanced escort.... well at least till we unlock the Fleet Mvam then you can start complaining about that one.
Frankly having to fire at a cruiser for 20 min before it gets into any real trouble is far more game breaking then my bug having 7% more DPS then my advanced escort.
Except a cruiser is supposed to be a tank. It should have superior defense and hp. The tradeoff is that it's inferior dps against a skilled escort pilot won't put a scratch on it. Even if it does, the Escort Captain can just pop Omega and be out of combat range within 2 seconds. With no chance of a pursuit, the Escort heals up and the Cruiser renews it cooldowns for round 2.
Cruiser defense has since been nerfed into the ground since the days of pre-F2P. Tanking more than 1 skilled enemy isn't really possible anymore and healing a focus-fired teammate is frustrating at best, drawing the focus on yourself at worst.
Until New Maps and Objective-based PvP mechanics are added, this won't change and fighter ships will continue to rule the galaxy.
Superior Speed and Turnrate boosts defense immensely with no tradeoff. That's why I don't understand why everyone cries about a cruiser using FAW and it's "OP'd" accuracy.
Eh the Bug is no more op then any of the 200 cruisers that have been released that are better then the star cruiser.
Honestly you will find me in the ques in my bug... and the first time I get into a match that doesn't have a....
Bortas... Or Oddy.... Or Fleet Vorcha... Or Galor... Or dkora... Or Excel... Or Even a Dread
I'll put my bug in the garage... and get my old advanced escort out... hahaha
You can all look forward to seeing my bug for awhile I think.
Frankly having to fire at a cruiser for 20 min before it gets into any real trouble is far more game breaking then my bug having 7% more DPS then my advanced escort.... well at least till we unlock the Fleet Mvam then you can start complaining about that one.
Thing is you are doing far more than a mere 7 percent dps more. particularly if you have XII purps in the consoles.
Not only that but due to the superior speed and agility your time on target is increased by more than 7 percent against fast movers, since they will have a much harder time shaking you. The pivot point is also much more turn friendly than other escorts, particularly the poor Craptor, and MVAM/AE.
Your superior shield and hull mods also gaurantee durability, while having 2 universals to back you up, and Cmdr and Ltcmdr tacs.
Actually, I thought the Mirandas were the most-destroyed ship on screen? :P
You see annihilated Mirandas in First Contact (battle with the Borg Cube) and pretty much every other large-scale battle scene. They're cannon fodder. . .
Heh, no, even the Mirandas are like the USS Enterprise-E compared to Jem'Hadar bugships. Bugships were destroyed without hesitation on DS9. It seemed like they died by their groups of 3 on a regular basis whenever combat occurred. It was like lemmings jumping over a cliff, that's how frequently bugships were going kaput.
Yet here in STO, they are the most clearly superior ship in the game. Hands down.
Except a cruiser is supposed to be a tank. It should have superior defense and hp. The tradeoff is that it's inferior dps against a skilled escort pilot won't put a scratch on it. Even if it does, the Escort Captain can just pop Omega and be out of combat range within 2 seconds. With no chance of a pursuit, the Escort heals up and the Cruiser renews it cooldowns for round 2.
Cruiser defense has since been nerfed into the ground since the days of pre-F2P. Tanking more than 1 skilled enemy isn't really possible anymore and healing a focus-fired teammate is frustrating at best, drawing the focus on yourself at worst.
Frankly your doing something wrong in your build... I don't just fly escorts... and I don't just have tacs... My Engi Galor is going to cream most bug ships... if you are not designing your builds to put out some pew along with the "Tank" your supposed to have. (btw there is no such thing as a tank in STO PvP)... well then perhaps you need to reconsider your build and your piloting tactics.
With out support most (and I say most some players are better then others) escorts and bugs are no different still have issues attacking one well built cruiser.
Thing is you are doing far more than a mere 7 percent dps more. particularly if you have XII purps in the consoles.
Not only that but due to the superior speed and agility your time on target is increased by more than 7 percent against fast movers, since they will have a much harder time shaking you. The pivot point is also much more turn friendly than other escorts, particularly the poor Craptor, and MVAM/AE.
Well if I have 4 Purple MK XII consoles in my 4 console escort wth is the difference... yes its aprox a 7% increase in DPS adding the 5th unit.
Frankly I don't build my other escorts in the same way I loadout my bug... I never really had any issue keeping my guns on target 90% of the match in my other ships. Using the noodle on my shoulders helps a lot... I will agree the BUG ship has a more forgiving setup... its easier to correct an over steer ect.
What the bug does is enable middle of the road pilots to do quite a bit better. Those are the guys and gals the benefit most from the forgiving nature of having a the extra turn rate.
Frankly all the top tier escort guys I know... where still the top tier guys BEFORE the bug.
I think the bug won't seem nearly as powerful to everyone once they see a Fleet Defiant Decloak on someone... or once they see that Fleet MVAM tear someone a new one.
The bug does have the best specs yes. It is THE BEST escort in the game no doubt. Is it better to the point of being OP... I don't think so. Its better then what is currently out... and when we start seeing the 2 new fed fleet escorts... I am not honestly sure it is better. Lining up a fleet defiant alpha burst is going to be sick... and I can think of some wickedly evil things to do with that fleet advanced when it hits.
Of course the klink side does really have nothing to run with the big boys anymore... well unless you sent your klink toon a bug. I didn't think I would ever say something like this... but I hope the next lock box ship is a sweet new escort so I can keep my klink toons geared to compete cause Really I can't afford another bug.
Except a cruiser is supposed to be a tank. It should have superior defense and hp. The tradeoff is that it's inferior dps against a skilled escort pilot won't put a scratch on it. Even if it does, the Escort Captain can just pop Omega and be out of combat range within 2 seconds. With no chance of a pursuit, the Escort heals up and the Cruiser renews it cooldowns for round 2.
Cruiser defense has since been nerfed into the ground since the days of pre-F2P. Tanking more than 1 skilled enemy isn't really possible anymore and healing a focus-fired teammate is frustrating at best, drawing the focus on yourself at worst.
Until New Maps and Objective-based PvP mechanics are added, this won't change and fighter ships will continue to rule the galaxy.
Superior Speed and Turnrate boosts defense immensely with no tradeoff. That's why I don't understand why everyone cries about a cruiser using FAW and it's "OP'd" accuracy.
Actually, I've seen skilled cruiser pilots square off against 2-3 other skilled players and tank them to a standstill. I think you're underestimating the crunchiness a cruiser can have in the right hands. Usually a cruiser will go down if the player's timing is off and there's a gap in their buff defenses (usually the opportune time for me in my Hegh'ta to decloak and deliver a punishing alpha-strike with attack buffs activated). Even then, it doesn't always work, because some players can react impressively fast.
Of course, even the best tank can be defeated if enough ships are deploying a wide enough array of effective skills against it (warp plasma/theta radiation, delta/beta debuffs, etc). The nastiest sort of thing I've see is the subnucleonic beams, those can throw even skilled players off their game.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
Except a cruiser is supposed to be a tank. It should have superior defense and hp. The tradeoff is that it's inferior dps against a skilled escort pilot won't put a scratch on it. Even if it does, the Escort Captain can just pop Omega and be out of combat range within 2 seconds. With no chance of a pursuit, the Escort heals up and the Cruiser renews it cooldowns for round 2.
Cruiser defense has since been nerfed into the ground since the days of pre-F2P. Tanking more than 1 skilled enemy isn't really possible anymore and healing a focus-fired teammate is frustrating at best, drawing the focus on yourself at worst.
Until New Maps and Objective-based PvP mechanics are added, this won't change and fighter ships will continue to rule the galaxy.
Superior Speed and Turnrate boosts defense immensely with no tradeoff. That's why I don't understand why everyone cries about a cruiser using FAW and it's "OP'd" accuracy.
Most legitimate PvPers would declare a loss if they left the battle field to heal up. Speaking strictly 1v1s here.
I've seen some cruisers tank so much that not even 3 high yield escort players could take it down ;p
Being a tank has no place in STO PvP... Sure, in PvE, if you can pull the aggro of the NPCs, you may be a useful tank. In PvP, any moderately skilled player will just ignore the tank and kill his teammates 15 times. And you can be the best tank in the whole world and contribute nothing to your team.
A cruiser is supposed to be a healer, AND deliver pressure-DPS. (Not spike-DPS for the kill, but sustained DPS that forces the enemies to burn a few heals now and then, to reduce the available heals for cross-healing) Ofc, when targeted, the cruiser should be hard to kill, but this is not really difficult to bake into the main role.
Sure it has. It is a durable ship that does enough sustainable damage to be a real threat, so it must be destroyed, which will take effort... and that buys time that the less durable ships need for recovering.
You don't do a lot of arena play, do you?
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
The jem ship makes raptors and destroyers obsolete because it's vastly superior in every aspect. I'm not sure it's the way to go.
Escorts turnrate is 15-17
BoPs turnrate is 21-23
Jem is at 20.
So that ship is closer to a BoP than an escort, and it even has 1 more eng console than a BoP where you can slot an RCS and outmaneuvers that poor BoP.
On top of that it has a lot of firepower, tons of hull and shields, an unique and faster speed mod, and one of the best consoles configuration (don't tell me science slots are good for tanking when adding shield cap is only good for a 6 seconds fight).
I'm not even counting hitbox, crew recovery rate (yep for some reason having less crew is best) and universal bo slots.
While feds have 2 other viable options (fleet advanced escort with multi-vector console and fleet escort carrier thanks to runabout spam), KDF has nothing to compete with it in term of firepower, maneuvering or speed.
Other lockbox ships aren't that superior to their class counterparts.
Now in practice, my raptor has no chance against jem ships because of that insane turnrate. Experience it yourself with a normal escort against a skilled jem pilot and you will see what I mean.
If it had 16 in turnrate it would still be superior but not unbeatable for escort pilots.
Other lockbox ships aren't that superior to their class counterparts.
YES they are...
The Galor is not better then an Assualt Cruiser ? ya ok
The Kora... doesn't make most of the other cruisers look like a complete piece... yes it does. The fleet vorcha compares well and that's the point a few of us are making.
The fed fleet escorts match up nicely vs the bug... there simply isn't anyone that has unlocked them... give it another month and that will be fixed.
The KDF problem Yes I agree... they get the best Fleet Cruiser hands down... and the worst fleet escorts no doubt.
Cryptic needs to rethink the specs on the fleet KDF escorts... and raiders for that matter.... Cause ya they all blow.
Unless the galor has a lt cmdr uni (it's a Tac IIRC) it doesn't make the AC look bad.
For tacs maybe, but for engies Hell To the No It Don't. Galor is a suck TRIBBLE healer. Just like the Excelsi.
'Kora is > Excelsior, but again it sure as hell isn't a healer.
The AC, and TRIBBLE (I mean Oddy) still have roles on the battlefield comparably speaking.
The Bug on the other hand obsoletes all but Sci Bops, in the Not Cruiser Or Sci Ship categories, in every aspect.
Sure it has. It is a durable ship that does enough sustainable damage to be a real threat, so it must be destroyed, which will take effort... and that buys time that the less durable ships need for recovering.
Then why don't they just swap target and kill one of your friends? ehhmmm... you DO have friends, hmm?
Unless the galor has a lt cmdr uni (it's a Tac IIRC) it doesn't make the AC look bad.
For tacs maybe, but for engies Hell To the No It Don't. Galor is a suck TRIBBLE healer. Just like the Excelsi.
'Kora is > Excelsior, but again it sure as hell isn't a healer.
The AC, and TRIBBLE (I mean Oddy) still have roles on the battlefield comparably speaking.
The Bug on the other hand obsoletes all but Sci Bops, in the Not Cruiser Or Sci Ship categories, in every aspect.
Well the Only really logical setup on the bug... is the fleet escort setup... So I could agree that it one ups the Patrol escort slightly... and I guess the Klink nausican refit ship with the same layout. Is it better then a fleet defiant or a fleet Mvam... Hell to the no it don't.
I did say the galor was better then the assualt... which I would say is the intended "Assault" cruiser ya know. Yes the Galor is better, then the other Offensive minded cruisers. Cruisers are all over the place and depending on the ship have very different uses. Escorts are all a lot more specific in there design. Its not like there is a "healing" version escort. They are ALL designed to deliver the Pew. Escorts have one roll and one roll only.
I mean just look at the other lockbox ships then.... Cause you know the recluse is surely not better then a vorque..... and the Orb is in no way better then the gorn sci. Yes the Jem is better then the other escorts... no kidden its the lockbox escort... just like the lockbox cruisers are better, and the lock box sci is better... and the lock box Carrier is better. I don't see the point... the OP compared the specs of the best comparable easily obtainable ship "The Fleet Patrol" and yes the specs IMO are pretty comparable... there is only one advantage that would be noticed in a match. If we pull up the other lockboxes and start running down the feature sheets... they are going to have at least 1 major advantage and likely more.
Really fast forward 3-6 months its going to get worse folks... if you don't have a fleet ship you will be disadvantaged... and there WILL be another lock box ship before Xmas... and I wouldn't bet against seeing 2 more before then.
Well the Only really logical setup on the bug... is the fleet escort setup... So I could agree that it one ups the Patrol escort slightly... and I guess the Klink nausican refit ship with the same layout. Is it better then a fleet defiant or a fleet Mvam... Hell to the no it don't.
I did say the galor was better then the assualt... which I would say is the intended "Assault" cruiser ya know. Yes the Galor is better, then the other Offensive minded cruisers. Cruisers are all over the place and depending on the ship have very different uses. Escorts are all a lot more specific in there design. Its not like there is a "healing" version escort. They are ALL designed to deliver the Pew. Escorts have one roll and one roll only.
I mean just look at the other lockbox ships then.... Cause you know the recluse is surely not better then a vorque..... and the Orb is in no way better then the gorn sci. Yes the Jem is better then the other escorts... no kidden its the lockbox escort... just like the lockbox cruisers are better, and the lock box sci is better... and the lock box Carrier is better. I don't see the point... the OP compared the specs of the best comparable easily obtainable ship "The Fleet Patrol" and yes the specs IMO are pretty comparable... there is only one advantage that would be noticed in a match. If we pull up the other lockboxes and start running down the feature sheets... they are going to have at least 1 major advantage and likely more.
Really fast forward 3-6 months its going to get worse folks... if you don't have a fleet ship you will be disadvantaged... and there WILL be another lock box ship before Xmas... and I wouldn't bet against seeing 2 more before then.
Sure it does, the best you can hope for in an mvam against a bug in even coverage is a standstill, if you've loaded upon 3x field gens and switch power levels like a mad man, while dancing out of his arcs as best you can. (and probably failing since a bug with a couple RCS is more agile than Beta Command is, particularly due to not just speed and turn, but also pivot point) Sure the mvam can carry VM. But that's not an equalizer when the other ship in question, so easily fields face rolling shield piercing power that it's not even funny.
Then the mvam dies, and you're stuck with if you're lucky Alpha command.. or worse No Command. Let's also not forget the MVAM mode is a Console, so the ship is effectively down a console to the bug, in addition to being down a Tac Console (till you get the T4 fleet mvam). So down 2 consoles, it's not as durable, it's not as agile.... woo it can carry Vm... yes, that is sooo special compared to face melt power alright.
The AC has always been a healers ship. Always. Also Gecko wouldn't know Intent of a ships role based on it's boffs if instructions bit him on the TRIBBLE and told him to stop facerolling himself in that spreadsheet.
The Recluse and the voquv, and atrox are all kind of even really.
As far as Gorn goes. Dude it's a DSSV, the DSSV was a TRIBBLE ship, since launch. Now, compare the Orb to say a Intrepid, Sci Bop (which is a better sci ship than the gorn), Fleet Nova, Fleet Recon, Nebula. Much more even slant.
The Bugs "only advantage" is a HUGE advantage and you know it. Now, you want to justify to yourself, that's fine, but quit trying to pass off that as sage advice. We both know better.
The Galor is not better then an Assualt Cruiser ? ya ok
The Kora... doesn't make most of the other cruisers look like a complete piece... yes it does. The fleet vorcha compares well and that's the point a few of us are making.
The fed fleet escorts match up nicely vs the bug... there simply isn't anyone that has unlocked them... give it another month and that will be fixed.
The KDF problem Yes I agree... they get the best Fleet Cruiser hands down... and the worst fleet escorts no doubt.
Cryptic needs to rethink the specs on the fleet KDF escorts... and raiders for that matter.... Cause ya they all blow.
While it's true the galor and d'kora are good dmg dealers, they don't outperform every other cruiser in both tanking, healing, dmg and maneuverability.
It's also true feds didn't get super awesome cruisers, but I think a star cruiser is best for healing.
As you said, these lockbox ships compares well with KDF fleet cruisers. From my point of view, they are equal to the fleet vor'cha if not not a little worse.
Now if you compare the bug to other escorts, you will realize you want a fleet tactical one if you really (I mean, really) want that cloak and a fleet carrier one if you plan spamming runabouts.
Aside of the fleet MVAM, there is no real reason to pick anything else than the bug (and I'm not even sure for the MVAM because I don't know how agile are the sections).
Comments
I will say this... they should have taken the recent bump it got with the 5th console and waited 1-2 months after season 6 to release it... this way they would have had more of the fleet ships in the wild first.... also they may have even sold a few more fleet ship to people that owned bugs... hahaha
Frankly if you don't like the bug don't worry... we are close to another doff pack promotions or something that will drop a small handful of them back into the system... Cryptic will use it to drive a weekend sale here soon enough.
We are most probably a month away from the end of the tholian box as well... the sales are starting to die down... anyone have any bets how good this next lock box Escort is going to be... lets be honest another escort is due up right.
I'll ignore the rest of your rant and focus strictly on this one for now.
So I have a lack of ability do I? Under what data do you reason that statement with? Your complete lack of PvPing me in-game? Like Never? Even once?
Oh that is right, you think Attack Ship is an I-Win Button. Why? ? A lot of PvPers on this forum, spend 99% of their time in teams, this is highly limiting to the ability aspect, it forces you to rely on others whilst fighting a target. This is a fundamentally flawed way to balance a game, one must first know what it is like to fight those that do NOT do teams ( at least not all of the time ). Then they will know just what it is like.
Now back to StarBases, you don't need to pump in endless resources, just enough to get 20k Fleet Credits, which if you aren't completely incompetent at this game, is an easy task to do. Then all you need is a fleet with the specific tier and permissions to buy from their store. Yeah, real challenging there, you don't even have to do anything for the fleet. ( Unless they require it, which will be rare )
Also I'll point out that most of everything that pops up in C-Store can also be bought off of the exchange. Including Ship modules, Attack Ships, Your dads TV, etc.
If you can't handle the heat, get out of the warp core.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Other people might say spending much money on a car is stupid. STO is a hobby and hey even gambling could be a hobby. So if someone has fun in opening lockboxes or buying ships, why the hell not. If you start selling your children it gets questionable but if you can afford it...
You should never try to tell people they are stupid for having fun their way.
The problem is something else. If you do pvp people often see it as a sport. And in sports you expect more or less equal chances due to equipment. If in boxing someone would put spikes on his gloves he would get an unfair advantage. Players want to measure their skills and not lose to a player with less skill because they could not afford some equipment.
Now that being said its still an MMO. There will always be differences, like some have MK XI and others MKXII. Small advantages are ok and if you have to pay to get them it is ok for me too. But the advantages shouldnt get too big. A little P2W is ok, it finances this game but I think the bug is a little too good. Not unbeatable but just a little too good.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Frankly that right there is sort of funny... there are different levels of sport clearly.
No one uses the best of the best equip in a weekend league... however I have played Hockey with guys that have spent $500 on a stick. Another that had a $700 pair of skates... I doubt they bought those because they felt they where equal to my $50 bauer skates and my old Canadian Tire Sherwood.
If you look at ANY professional sport... yes they spend thousands of dollars on equipment. How many of you golf and wouldn't like to upgrade your set of clubs ? In EVERY sport this is true... even in junk no one cares about, look at the olympics they barred swimmers from using there multi thousand dollar slick suites, ect ect ect.
Its Sport and people equip themselves the best they can.... HOWEVER... Wayne Gretzky would **** face with MY old sherwood... if Tiger woods was to show up at a golf course and pick up a set of rentals, do any of us think because we just picked up a new set of Callaways we would kick his backside ??? Come on gear is a nice bump but in any sport, people will look for that little extra bump... and frankly with or with out the cream always rises.
Even in sports, you don't do squat if you don't have the financial means. Money makes the world spin around man, lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I have no problem with people spending money to get the bug, or AMS, or things like that. I just feel the bug got a little too much love but it is not game breaking.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
to go with the beyond parameter offense and mobility, it should have a defensive penalty, thats even canon. say 25k hitpoints and a .83 shield mod. go ahead and have 5 tac consoles, 4 eng consoles and a 20 turn rate, you give something up for that. its still worth trying to get, its offensive ability is unparalleled, just being different and better in a few ways is enough for it to be desirable.
i frankly dont care if all you bug users are of the opinion that it is not game breaking, your definition of game breaking must be very different from mine. removing a fair chance in a situation were you are apposing another ship is game breaking as far as im concerned.
there was frankly rightful cause for the bug to be called op, a LONG time ago now. back when sci could run amok, the long stuns during an alpha were death sentence, there was no distributing TT, shield striping was functional, all that kind of stuff. a bop cant do a quarter of the stuff it used to be able to do, and on top of that there is a federation only escort that can use all the bops best station combinations. claims that the bop was op ALWAYS being bs is an exaggeration. at least in this case the bop gave up a dramatic amount of survivability for its advantages. thanks to F2P and the unchecked power creep, any attempt to balance advantages with disadvantages has been abandon, and the bop is a sad relic of a better time.
A car can get you laid, is tangible, can retain value better and be resold well after it was ceased to be manufactured.
Being an STO packrat just means you spend more money to buy gold, use bots or grind more than others. Hardly anything to be proud of.
Probably the same kind of people who spend 1000+ on gear in Diablo 3.
Will retain value much better. Can actually Gain in value, with your investments, in addition to those other benefits.
Honestly you will find me in the ques in my bug... and the first time I get into a match that doesn't have a....
Bortas... Or Oddy.... Or Fleet Vorcha... Or Galor... Or dkora... Or Excel... Or Even a Dread
I'll put my bug in the garage... and get my old advanced escort out... hahaha
You can all look forward to seeing my bug for awhile I think.
Frankly having to fire at a cruiser for 20 min before it gets into any real trouble is far more game breaking then my bug having 7% more DPS then my advanced escort.... well at least till we unlock the Fleet Mvam then you can start complaining about that one.
Except a cruiser is supposed to be a tank. It should have superior defense and hp. The tradeoff is that it's inferior dps against a skilled escort pilot won't put a scratch on it. Even if it does, the Escort Captain can just pop Omega and be out of combat range within 2 seconds. With no chance of a pursuit, the Escort heals up and the Cruiser renews it cooldowns for round 2.
Cruiser defense has since been nerfed into the ground since the days of pre-F2P. Tanking more than 1 skilled enemy isn't really possible anymore and healing a focus-fired teammate is frustrating at best, drawing the focus on yourself at worst.
Until New Maps and Objective-based PvP mechanics are added, this won't change and fighter ships will continue to rule the galaxy.
Superior Speed and Turnrate boosts defense immensely with no tradeoff. That's why I don't understand why everyone cries about a cruiser using FAW and it's "OP'd" accuracy.
Thing is you are doing far more than a mere 7 percent dps more. particularly if you have XII purps in the consoles.
Not only that but due to the superior speed and agility your time on target is increased by more than 7 percent against fast movers, since they will have a much harder time shaking you. The pivot point is also much more turn friendly than other escorts, particularly the poor Craptor, and MVAM/AE.
Your superior shield and hull mods also gaurantee durability, while having 2 universals to back you up, and Cmdr and Ltcmdr tacs.
Lies, I'm old school
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t132/mewimi/Screenshot054.jpg
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Heh, no, even the Mirandas are like the USS Enterprise-E compared to Jem'Hadar bugships. Bugships were destroyed without hesitation on DS9. It seemed like they died by their groups of 3 on a regular basis whenever combat occurred. It was like lemmings jumping over a cliff, that's how frequently bugships were going kaput.
Yet here in STO, they are the most clearly superior ship in the game. Hands down.
Frankly your doing something wrong in your build... I don't just fly escorts... and I don't just have tacs... My Engi Galor is going to cream most bug ships... if you are not designing your builds to put out some pew along with the "Tank" your supposed to have. (btw there is no such thing as a tank in STO PvP)... well then perhaps you need to reconsider your build and your piloting tactics.
With out support most (and I say most some players are better then others) escorts and bugs are no different still have issues attacking one well built cruiser.
Well if I have 4 Purple MK XII consoles in my 4 console escort wth is the difference... yes its aprox a 7% increase in DPS adding the 5th unit.
Frankly I don't build my other escorts in the same way I loadout my bug... I never really had any issue keeping my guns on target 90% of the match in my other ships. Using the noodle on my shoulders helps a lot... I will agree the BUG ship has a more forgiving setup... its easier to correct an over steer ect.
What the bug does is enable middle of the road pilots to do quite a bit better. Those are the guys and gals the benefit most from the forgiving nature of having a the extra turn rate.
Frankly all the top tier escort guys I know... where still the top tier guys BEFORE the bug.
I think the bug won't seem nearly as powerful to everyone once they see a Fleet Defiant Decloak on someone... or once they see that Fleet MVAM tear someone a new one.
The bug does have the best specs yes. It is THE BEST escort in the game no doubt. Is it better to the point of being OP... I don't think so. Its better then what is currently out... and when we start seeing the 2 new fed fleet escorts... I am not honestly sure it is better. Lining up a fleet defiant alpha burst is going to be sick... and I can think of some wickedly evil things to do with that fleet advanced when it hits.
Of course the klink side does really have nothing to run with the big boys anymore... well unless you sent your klink toon a bug. I didn't think I would ever say something like this... but I hope the next lock box ship is a sweet new escort so I can keep my klink toons geared to compete cause Really I can't afford another bug.
Actually, I've seen skilled cruiser pilots square off against 2-3 other skilled players and tank them to a standstill. I think you're underestimating the crunchiness a cruiser can have in the right hands. Usually a cruiser will go down if the player's timing is off and there's a gap in their buff defenses (usually the opportune time for me in my Hegh'ta to decloak and deliver a punishing alpha-strike with attack buffs activated). Even then, it doesn't always work, because some players can react impressively fast.
Of course, even the best tank can be defeated if enough ships are deploying a wide enough array of effective skills against it (warp plasma/theta radiation, delta/beta debuffs, etc). The nastiest sort of thing I've see is the subnucleonic beams, those can throw even skilled players off their game.
Most legitimate PvPers would declare a loss if they left the battle field to heal up. Speaking strictly 1v1s here.
I've seen some cruisers tank so much that not even 3 high yield escort players could take it down ;p
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
no...no....no....
Being a tank has no place in STO PvP... Sure, in PvE, if you can pull the aggro of the NPCs, you may be a useful tank. In PvP, any moderately skilled player will just ignore the tank and kill his teammates 15 times. And you can be the best tank in the whole world and contribute nothing to your team.
A cruiser is supposed to be a healer, AND deliver pressure-DPS. (Not spike-DPS for the kill, but sustained DPS that forces the enemies to burn a few heals now and then, to reduce the available heals for cross-healing) Ofc, when targeted, the cruiser should be hard to kill, but this is not really difficult to bake into the main role.
+ 10,000
Word !
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
You don't do a lot of arena play, do you?
He just does one vs one. Late at night he does 5v1.
Escorts turnrate is 15-17
BoPs turnrate is 21-23
Jem is at 20.
So that ship is closer to a BoP than an escort, and it even has 1 more eng console than a BoP where you can slot an RCS and outmaneuvers that poor BoP.
On top of that it has a lot of firepower, tons of hull and shields, an unique and faster speed mod, and one of the best consoles configuration (don't tell me science slots are good for tanking when adding shield cap is only good for a 6 seconds fight).
I'm not even counting hitbox, crew recovery rate (yep for some reason having less crew is best) and universal bo slots.
While feds have 2 other viable options (fleet advanced escort with multi-vector console and fleet escort carrier thanks to runabout spam), KDF has nothing to compete with it in term of firepower, maneuvering or speed.
Other lockbox ships aren't that superior to their class counterparts.
Now in practice, my raptor has no chance against jem ships because of that insane turnrate. Experience it yourself with a normal escort against a skilled jem pilot and you will see what I mean.
If it had 16 in turnrate it would still be superior but not unbeatable for escort pilots.
YES they are...
The Galor is not better then an Assualt Cruiser ? ya ok
The Kora... doesn't make most of the other cruisers look like a complete piece... yes it does. The fleet vorcha compares well and that's the point a few of us are making.
The fed fleet escorts match up nicely vs the bug... there simply isn't anyone that has unlocked them... give it another month and that will be fixed.
The KDF problem Yes I agree... they get the best Fleet Cruiser hands down... and the worst fleet escorts no doubt.
Cryptic needs to rethink the specs on the fleet KDF escorts... and raiders for that matter.... Cause ya they all blow.
Problem solved.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
For tacs maybe, but for engies Hell To the No It Don't. Galor is a suck TRIBBLE healer. Just like the Excelsi.
'Kora is > Excelsior, but again it sure as hell isn't a healer.
The AC, and TRIBBLE (I mean Oddy) still have roles on the battlefield comparably speaking.
The Bug on the other hand obsoletes all but Sci Bops, in the Not Cruiser Or Sci Ship categories, in every aspect.
Then why don't they just swap target and kill one of your friends? ehhmmm... you DO have friends, hmm?
Well the Only really logical setup on the bug... is the fleet escort setup... So I could agree that it one ups the Patrol escort slightly... and I guess the Klink nausican refit ship with the same layout. Is it better then a fleet defiant or a fleet Mvam... Hell to the no it don't.
I did say the galor was better then the assualt... which I would say is the intended "Assault" cruiser ya know. Yes the Galor is better, then the other Offensive minded cruisers. Cruisers are all over the place and depending on the ship have very different uses. Escorts are all a lot more specific in there design. Its not like there is a "healing" version escort. They are ALL designed to deliver the Pew. Escorts have one roll and one roll only.
I mean just look at the other lockbox ships then.... Cause you know the recluse is surely not better then a vorque..... and the Orb is in no way better then the gorn sci. Yes the Jem is better then the other escorts... no kidden its the lockbox escort... just like the lockbox cruisers are better, and the lock box sci is better... and the lock box Carrier is better. I don't see the point... the OP compared the specs of the best comparable easily obtainable ship "The Fleet Patrol" and yes the specs IMO are pretty comparable... there is only one advantage that would be noticed in a match. If we pull up the other lockboxes and start running down the feature sheets... they are going to have at least 1 major advantage and likely more.
Really fast forward 3-6 months its going to get worse folks... if you don't have a fleet ship you will be disadvantaged... and there WILL be another lock box ship before Xmas... and I wouldn't bet against seeing 2 more before then.
Sure it does, the best you can hope for in an mvam against a bug in even coverage is a standstill, if you've loaded upon 3x field gens and switch power levels like a mad man, while dancing out of his arcs as best you can. (and probably failing since a bug with a couple RCS is more agile than Beta Command is, particularly due to not just speed and turn, but also pivot point) Sure the mvam can carry VM. But that's not an equalizer when the other ship in question, so easily fields face rolling shield piercing power that it's not even funny.
Then the mvam dies, and you're stuck with if you're lucky Alpha command.. or worse No Command. Let's also not forget the MVAM mode is a Console, so the ship is effectively down a console to the bug, in addition to being down a Tac Console (till you get the T4 fleet mvam). So down 2 consoles, it's not as durable, it's not as agile.... woo it can carry Vm... yes, that is sooo special compared to face melt power alright.
The AC has always been a healers ship. Always. Also Gecko wouldn't know Intent of a ships role based on it's boffs if instructions bit him on the TRIBBLE and told him to stop facerolling himself in that spreadsheet.
The Recluse and the voquv, and atrox are all kind of even really.
As far as Gorn goes. Dude it's a DSSV, the DSSV was a TRIBBLE ship, since launch. Now, compare the Orb to say a Intrepid, Sci Bop (which is a better sci ship than the gorn), Fleet Nova, Fleet Recon, Nebula. Much more even slant.
The Bugs "only advantage" is a HUGE advantage and you know it. Now, you want to justify to yourself, that's fine, but quit trying to pass off that as sage advice. We both know better.
While it's true the galor and d'kora are good dmg dealers, they don't outperform every other cruiser in both tanking, healing, dmg and maneuverability.
It's also true feds didn't get super awesome cruisers, but I think a star cruiser is best for healing.
As you said, these lockbox ships compares well with KDF fleet cruisers. From my point of view, they are equal to the fleet vor'cha if not not a little worse.
Now if you compare the bug to other escorts, you will realize you want a fleet tactical one if you really (I mean, really) want that cloak and a fleet carrier one if you plan spamming runabouts.
Aside of the fleet MVAM, there is no real reason to pick anything else than the bug (and I'm not even sure for the MVAM because I don't know how agile are the sections).