The jem ship makes raptors and destroyers obsolete because it's vastly superior in every aspect. I'm not sure it's the way to go.
Escorts turnrate is 15-17
BoPs turnrate is 21-23
Jem is at 20.
So that ship is closer to a BoP than an escort, and it even has 1 more eng console than a BoP where you can slot an RCS and outmaneuvers that poor BoP.
On top of that it has a lot of firepower, tons of hull and shields, an unique and faster speed mod, and one of the best consoles configuration (don't tell me science slots are good for tanking when adding shield cap is only good for a 6 seconds fight).
I'm not even counting hitbox, crew recovery rate (yep for some reason having less crew is best) and universal bo slots.
While feds have 2 other viable options (fleet advanced escort with multi-vector console and fleet escort carrier thanks to runabout spam), KDF has nothing to compete with it in term of firepower, maneuvering or speed.
Other lockbox ships aren't that superior to their class counterparts.
Now in practice, my raptor has no chance against jem ships because of that insane turnrate. Experience it yourself with a normal escort against a skilled jem pilot and you will see what I mean.
If it had 16 in turnrate it would still be superior but not unbeatable for escort pilots.
Other lockbox ships aren't that superior to their class counterparts.
YES they are...
The Galor is not better then an Assualt Cruiser ? ya ok
The Kora... doesn't make most of the other cruisers look like a complete piece... yes it does. The fleet vorcha compares well and that's the point a few of us are making.
The fed fleet escorts match up nicely vs the bug... there simply isn't anyone that has unlocked them... give it another month and that will be fixed.
The KDF problem Yes I agree... they get the best Fleet Cruiser hands down... and the worst fleet escorts no doubt.
Cryptic needs to rethink the specs on the fleet KDF escorts... and raiders for that matter.... Cause ya they all blow.
Unless the galor has a lt cmdr uni (it's a Tac IIRC) it doesn't make the AC look bad.
For tacs maybe, but for engies Hell To the No It Don't. Galor is a suck TRIBBLE healer. Just like the Excelsi.
'Kora is > Excelsior, but again it sure as hell isn't a healer.
The AC, and TRIBBLE (I mean Oddy) still have roles on the battlefield comparably speaking.
The Bug on the other hand obsoletes all but Sci Bops, in the Not Cruiser Or Sci Ship categories, in every aspect.
Sure it has. It is a durable ship that does enough sustainable damage to be a real threat, so it must be destroyed, which will take effort... and that buys time that the less durable ships need for recovering.
Then why don't they just swap target and kill one of your friends? ehhmmm... you DO have friends, hmm?
Unless the galor has a lt cmdr uni (it's a Tac IIRC) it doesn't make the AC look bad.
For tacs maybe, but for engies Hell To the No It Don't. Galor is a suck TRIBBLE healer. Just like the Excelsi.
'Kora is > Excelsior, but again it sure as hell isn't a healer.
The AC, and TRIBBLE (I mean Oddy) still have roles on the battlefield comparably speaking.
The Bug on the other hand obsoletes all but Sci Bops, in the Not Cruiser Or Sci Ship categories, in every aspect.
Well the Only really logical setup on the bug... is the fleet escort setup... So I could agree that it one ups the Patrol escort slightly... and I guess the Klink nausican refit ship with the same layout. Is it better then a fleet defiant or a fleet Mvam... Hell to the no it don't.
I did say the galor was better then the assualt... which I would say is the intended "Assault" cruiser ya know. Yes the Galor is better, then the other Offensive minded cruisers. Cruisers are all over the place and depending on the ship have very different uses. Escorts are all a lot more specific in there design. Its not like there is a "healing" version escort. They are ALL designed to deliver the Pew. Escorts have one roll and one roll only.
I mean just look at the other lockbox ships then.... Cause you know the recluse is surely not better then a vorque..... and the Orb is in no way better then the gorn sci. Yes the Jem is better then the other escorts... no kidden its the lockbox escort... just like the lockbox cruisers are better, and the lock box sci is better... and the lock box Carrier is better. I don't see the point... the OP compared the specs of the best comparable easily obtainable ship "The Fleet Patrol" and yes the specs IMO are pretty comparable... there is only one advantage that would be noticed in a match. If we pull up the other lockboxes and start running down the feature sheets... they are going to have at least 1 major advantage and likely more.
Really fast forward 3-6 months its going to get worse folks... if you don't have a fleet ship you will be disadvantaged... and there WILL be another lock box ship before Xmas... and I wouldn't bet against seeing 2 more before then.
Well the Only really logical setup on the bug... is the fleet escort setup... So I could agree that it one ups the Patrol escort slightly... and I guess the Klink nausican refit ship with the same layout. Is it better then a fleet defiant or a fleet Mvam... Hell to the no it don't.
I did say the galor was better then the assualt... which I would say is the intended "Assault" cruiser ya know. Yes the Galor is better, then the other Offensive minded cruisers. Cruisers are all over the place and depending on the ship have very different uses. Escorts are all a lot more specific in there design. Its not like there is a "healing" version escort. They are ALL designed to deliver the Pew. Escorts have one roll and one roll only.
I mean just look at the other lockbox ships then.... Cause you know the recluse is surely not better then a vorque..... and the Orb is in no way better then the gorn sci. Yes the Jem is better then the other escorts... no kidden its the lockbox escort... just like the lockbox cruisers are better, and the lock box sci is better... and the lock box Carrier is better. I don't see the point... the OP compared the specs of the best comparable easily obtainable ship "The Fleet Patrol" and yes the specs IMO are pretty comparable... there is only one advantage that would be noticed in a match. If we pull up the other lockboxes and start running down the feature sheets... they are going to have at least 1 major advantage and likely more.
Really fast forward 3-6 months its going to get worse folks... if you don't have a fleet ship you will be disadvantaged... and there WILL be another lock box ship before Xmas... and I wouldn't bet against seeing 2 more before then.
Sure it does, the best you can hope for in an mvam against a bug in even coverage is a standstill, if you've loaded upon 3x field gens and switch power levels like a mad man, while dancing out of his arcs as best you can. (and probably failing since a bug with a couple RCS is more agile than Beta Command is, particularly due to not just speed and turn, but also pivot point) Sure the mvam can carry VM. But that's not an equalizer when the other ship in question, so easily fields face rolling shield piercing power that it's not even funny.
Then the mvam dies, and you're stuck with if you're lucky Alpha command.. or worse No Command. Let's also not forget the MVAM mode is a Console, so the ship is effectively down a console to the bug, in addition to being down a Tac Console (till you get the T4 fleet mvam). So down 2 consoles, it's not as durable, it's not as agile.... woo it can carry Vm... yes, that is sooo special compared to face melt power alright.
The AC has always been a healers ship. Always. Also Gecko wouldn't know Intent of a ships role based on it's boffs if instructions bit him on the TRIBBLE and told him to stop facerolling himself in that spreadsheet.
The Recluse and the voquv, and atrox are all kind of even really.
As far as Gorn goes. Dude it's a DSSV, the DSSV was a TRIBBLE ship, since launch. Now, compare the Orb to say a Intrepid, Sci Bop (which is a better sci ship than the gorn), Fleet Nova, Fleet Recon, Nebula. Much more even slant.
The Bugs "only advantage" is a HUGE advantage and you know it. Now, you want to justify to yourself, that's fine, but quit trying to pass off that as sage advice. We both know better.
The Galor is not better then an Assualt Cruiser ? ya ok
The Kora... doesn't make most of the other cruisers look like a complete piece... yes it does. The fleet vorcha compares well and that's the point a few of us are making.
The fed fleet escorts match up nicely vs the bug... there simply isn't anyone that has unlocked them... give it another month and that will be fixed.
The KDF problem Yes I agree... they get the best Fleet Cruiser hands down... and the worst fleet escorts no doubt.
Cryptic needs to rethink the specs on the fleet KDF escorts... and raiders for that matter.... Cause ya they all blow.
While it's true the galor and d'kora are good dmg dealers, they don't outperform every other cruiser in both tanking, healing, dmg and maneuverability.
It's also true feds didn't get super awesome cruisers, but I think a star cruiser is best for healing.
As you said, these lockbox ships compares well with KDF fleet cruisers. From my point of view, they are equal to the fleet vor'cha if not not a little worse.
Now if you compare the bug to other escorts, you will realize you want a fleet tactical one if you really (I mean, really) want that cloak and a fleet carrier one if you plan spamming runabouts.
Aside of the fleet MVAM, there is no real reason to pick anything else than the bug (and I'm not even sure for the MVAM because I don't know how agile are the sections).
the galor is a +1 excelsior, more maneuverable, less redundant ensigns, and has the ability to have 3 sci or 5 tac stations. it has the best station setup for a cruiser flown tactically imo. the limitation is that it cant mount DHCs, so its really only a good drop in replacement for an excelsior user, and not necessarily a vorcha user. the dkora is basically a fater, more tactical vorcha, its tactical mode's maneuverability is inferior to a vorcha though. the fleet vorcha outclasses it hard if you want to use cannons. no engineer should be within a mile of any of these ships, science is a waste in them too
for every bit of tactical edge these ships get, they lose more and more of what makes cruisers useful to a team, and they become more and more fragile themselves. the closer you get to the middle ground between cruiser and escort the more ineffective you become. next to the bug, none of these ships are op at all
these ships are hybrids, blurring the line between ship types. the bug is a double downed escort, that also has cruiser hull, consoles and shield mod. there is NO comparison. for the bug to be in the same category it would have to be less escort and more cruiser, like having a TLC and LT eng stations or something.
oh also i dueled a fleet patrol a few times yesterday in my fleet vorcha, that i still haven't got a build i like for yet, i need some engineer training bad. it was VERY durable, and dealt good damage, but i could tank him for several minutes. it was a long attrition battle that he won with his ability to absorb damage so well, and my builds ineffectiveness. it was NOTHING like fighting a bug, the fleet patrol couldn't maneuver or fly around fast enough to capitalize on low shield facings, or alpha nearly hard enough to defeat TT like a bug can so easily. if it wasn't so durable i could have wore it down and killed it like every other non fleet escort. its good, but it only has what makes the bug hard to kill, not what makes it dangerous.
just a side thought, I always wondered what a team of bugs would be like... not all tac dps but rather mixed like with a typical engi healer... it'd be pretty 'funny' if the bughealer did just as good a job as a oddy... probably would pop less.
just a side thought, I always wondered what a team of bugs would be like... not all tac dps but rather mixed like with a typical engi healer... it'd be pretty 'funny' if the bughealer did just as good a job as a oddy... probably would pop less.
I'm gonna swap to a DSSV ship, with the "shoe" design. Should allow for easy bug-swatting!
But why do none of you KDF players ever equate the fact that your ships ( not all ) have built in cloak? :P
Because for the most part its junk... out side of the alpha stike... which frankly the defiant does better.
If the only ships feds flew around in where assualt crusiers and star cruisers and fleet escorts... ya the cloak would be a pretty nice advantage... but when they fly around in oddys, and intrepids, and Jems, and Cloaked Defiants... its really not worth what the klink ships trade to get them.
I find it hilarious that there are several posts that claim that it is the best and still say it's not OP.
If it's the best, then it has an advantage.
If something has an advantage, it is not balanced, otherwise there would be no advantage.
Logic dictates that it being the best makes it OP and is a fail on balance. This is incontrovertible. And those defending it are making themselves look quite silly. The fact of the matter is we have what is essentially a patrol escort, with the Defiant's firepower, and the turn rate that is in BoP territory. The best of all worlds. No, it's not an I-win button, but if two players of equal skill face off, and one is in a bug, and the other in another escort, the one in the other escort is clearly not going to win. Thus the other player undeniably has an undeserved victory. Defending this is something I can't fathom, that is, defending it without an ulterior motive.
Hell, I'd still get one, but I'd also still support nerfing its durability as well. I'd much rather have the game just balanced properly than have the bug. The sole point of desirability is to maintain parity in most cases. It didn't entirely exist before, but the bug ship's dragged itself across what semblance of parity or balance there was with it's front legs like a dog with an itchy TRIBBLE.
Also, I'd like to point out that comparing it to the BoP to justify the JHAS is fail logic, and actually proves the opposite point. The BoP gave up plenty for battle cloak and turn rate. It's had all of it's best boff loadouts replicated in escorts that give nothing up for them already of course. But the JHAS makes no sacrifice anywhere for it's improvements. The BoP if anything epitomized balance in the gain here/lose there approach.
I find it amusing that people equate "Over Powered" with better. Over Powered implies game breaking additions.
People will always choose a better item over a lesser so. XII items are fundamentally better than their XI counterparts, are then XII items OverPowered?
Over Powered vs Under Powered, which implies that they go over or under the overall game balance by an extreme, not a moderation.
There will always be a ship that is slightly better... that doesn't make them OP by any stretch.
Saying the defiant has less fire power then the Jem is very misleading. The Regular old Defiant we have been stuck with has less fire power yes.... The fleet version that no one really has yet... no it has cloak + 5 tac slots it will do just fine dps wise.
Have heard this so many times in this game that, I have had enough of it. Excel is OP... Mvam is OP... oh my god Brels can heal while cloaked NERF it.....
Frankly its a bit old and silly at this point... The Jem Ship is a nice ship... I would even say it is the best escort in the game. However I wouldn't say its OP at all. I find they still go boom when I shoot at them... I have seen people in defients tank a stupid amount of dmg... I have seen no evidence that the bug ship is really much more sturdy then any other escort... the turn rate yes its crazy... its just shy of a BOP... lets be honest though ever single OH NOS its OP person would still be calling it such if the turn rate was = to the defiant. Don't fool yourselves otherwise.... The bug has become a convenient scap goat, for other larger issues with the game.
In the past the Bop was really OP...but after many complaints we Feds got the Oddy, the Intrepid, the Defiant, the Armitage, the Atrox...:D
Now only the best of the best like Cryox, Mini or Zirac (in alphabetical order) and the infamous targ packs scare us...but when we'll have the Fleet vessels...:cool:
Please, the bop wasn't op before those days either. Not even close. I still took them out **** Cheney style, with my AE back in the day.
I find it hilarious that there are several posts that claim that it is the best and still say it's not OP.
If it's the best, then it has an advantage.
If something has an advantage, it is not balanced, otherwise there would be no advantage.
Logic dictates that it being the best makes it OP and is a fail on balance. This is incontrovertible. And those defending it are making themselves look quite silly. The fact of the matter is we have what is essentially a patrol escort, with the Defiant's firepower, and the turn rate that is in BoP territory. The best of all worlds. No, it's not an I-win button, but if two players of equal skill face off, and one is in a bug, and the other in another escort, the one in the other escort is clearly not going to win. Thus the other player undeniably has an undeserved victory. Defending this is something I can't fathom, that is, defending it without an ulterior motive.
If two people of equal skill face off in a 1v1 and one of them has Mk XII very rare weapons, while the other has common Mk X's, is that an equally undeserved victory for the better equipped player? Or is it the fault of the lesser equipped player for not being better prepared?
In the past the Bop was really OP...but after many complaints we Feds got the Oddy, the Intrepid, the Defiant, the Armitage, the Atrox...:D
Now only the best of the best like Cryox, Mini or Zirac (in alphabetical order) and the infamous targ packs scare us...but when we'll have the Fleet vessels...:cool:
I agree with the second part of your post. In most cases, BoPs really have to gang up/fight in packs in order to win, because most BoPs have to sacrifice survivability for firepower in order to remain relevant as a DPSer, hence they have difficulty lasting long enough to take an enemy down by themselves in a prolonged 'duel'. Sure, it's possible to build a tanky BoP, to a certain extent. . .but it won't be as good as a well-built 'tank-oriented' escort, simply because of the lower hull and shield mod. Meanwhile, you're sacrificing DPS and tactical mobility for it.
When PvPing, I follow the Zirac method. . .and when you get the timing right, it's quite effective.
I can't wait to get my Fleet Hoh'sus, eventually. It's not as much of an improvement as I'd like to see, but it's better than nothing. That 4th tac console and slight improvement in hull and shield mod will be nice.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
If two people of equal skill face off in a 1v1 and one of them has Mk XII very rare weapons, while the other has common Mk X's, is that an equally undeserved victory for the better equipped player? Or is it the fault of the lesser equipped player for not being better prepared?
Gear can be overcome. A ship having flat out better shield modifiers, agility, impulse speed pivot point, and console slots not so much, if both pilots are equal.
The difference between X and XII while it is noticeable is far from insurmountable. Their dps out puts, crit ranges, weapon properties are all still relatively comparable.
The bug on the other hand, is so vastly superior that there is literally no flight moves, you can pull on a bug that he can't simply counter, his time on target unless he's Trash will be superior to your own, and his ships superior durability and twin universals gives him far more tactical options than you have in any other given ship.
The only ship that stands a chance at getting a Draw is an mvam in a duel with a bug. And that's if he has 3 field generators cranking and Beta Command. Then if the mvam dies, he's flat out out classed in every way to the bug.
Quite simply put, the other guy in the fight will be pulling every move he has in his arsenal to get more time on target against the bug, more disables to render it more defensless, while the bug pilot on the other hand can be virtually asleep at the wheel, unless he is Trash. Not only this, but the Bug to make it worse has more hull, and more shields than some of the cruisers in this bargain bin game. So even the fabled and allegedly OP mvam? Not even in the same league, because it eats a 10 minute cool down AND a console slot AND durability just to get on the same Agility Level as the stupid TRIBBLE Bug. Oh and it eats 3 consoles, just to equal the bugs shield points.
Now if you think that's a good thing, and that it's okay to get victory just because you opened your wallet, I can see why you play this game. Cause you probably couldn't hack it in other games.
Comments
Escorts turnrate is 15-17
BoPs turnrate is 21-23
Jem is at 20.
So that ship is closer to a BoP than an escort, and it even has 1 more eng console than a BoP where you can slot an RCS and outmaneuvers that poor BoP.
On top of that it has a lot of firepower, tons of hull and shields, an unique and faster speed mod, and one of the best consoles configuration (don't tell me science slots are good for tanking when adding shield cap is only good for a 6 seconds fight).
I'm not even counting hitbox, crew recovery rate (yep for some reason having less crew is best) and universal bo slots.
While feds have 2 other viable options (fleet advanced escort with multi-vector console and fleet escort carrier thanks to runabout spam), KDF has nothing to compete with it in term of firepower, maneuvering or speed.
Other lockbox ships aren't that superior to their class counterparts.
Now in practice, my raptor has no chance against jem ships because of that insane turnrate. Experience it yourself with a normal escort against a skilled jem pilot and you will see what I mean.
If it had 16 in turnrate it would still be superior but not unbeatable for escort pilots.
YES they are...
The Galor is not better then an Assualt Cruiser ? ya ok
The Kora... doesn't make most of the other cruisers look like a complete piece... yes it does. The fleet vorcha compares well and that's the point a few of us are making.
The fed fleet escorts match up nicely vs the bug... there simply isn't anyone that has unlocked them... give it another month and that will be fixed.
The KDF problem Yes I agree... they get the best Fleet Cruiser hands down... and the worst fleet escorts no doubt.
Cryptic needs to rethink the specs on the fleet KDF escorts... and raiders for that matter.... Cause ya they all blow.
Problem solved.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
For tacs maybe, but for engies Hell To the No It Don't. Galor is a suck TRIBBLE healer. Just like the Excelsi.
'Kora is > Excelsior, but again it sure as hell isn't a healer.
The AC, and TRIBBLE (I mean Oddy) still have roles on the battlefield comparably speaking.
The Bug on the other hand obsoletes all but Sci Bops, in the Not Cruiser Or Sci Ship categories, in every aspect.
Then why don't they just swap target and kill one of your friends? ehhmmm... you DO have friends, hmm?
Well the Only really logical setup on the bug... is the fleet escort setup... So I could agree that it one ups the Patrol escort slightly... and I guess the Klink nausican refit ship with the same layout. Is it better then a fleet defiant or a fleet Mvam... Hell to the no it don't.
I did say the galor was better then the assualt... which I would say is the intended "Assault" cruiser ya know. Yes the Galor is better, then the other Offensive minded cruisers. Cruisers are all over the place and depending on the ship have very different uses. Escorts are all a lot more specific in there design. Its not like there is a "healing" version escort. They are ALL designed to deliver the Pew. Escorts have one roll and one roll only.
I mean just look at the other lockbox ships then.... Cause you know the recluse is surely not better then a vorque..... and the Orb is in no way better then the gorn sci. Yes the Jem is better then the other escorts... no kidden its the lockbox escort... just like the lockbox cruisers are better, and the lock box sci is better... and the lock box Carrier is better. I don't see the point... the OP compared the specs of the best comparable easily obtainable ship "The Fleet Patrol" and yes the specs IMO are pretty comparable... there is only one advantage that would be noticed in a match. If we pull up the other lockboxes and start running down the feature sheets... they are going to have at least 1 major advantage and likely more.
Really fast forward 3-6 months its going to get worse folks... if you don't have a fleet ship you will be disadvantaged... and there WILL be another lock box ship before Xmas... and I wouldn't bet against seeing 2 more before then.
Sure it does, the best you can hope for in an mvam against a bug in even coverage is a standstill, if you've loaded upon 3x field gens and switch power levels like a mad man, while dancing out of his arcs as best you can. (and probably failing since a bug with a couple RCS is more agile than Beta Command is, particularly due to not just speed and turn, but also pivot point) Sure the mvam can carry VM. But that's not an equalizer when the other ship in question, so easily fields face rolling shield piercing power that it's not even funny.
Then the mvam dies, and you're stuck with if you're lucky Alpha command.. or worse No Command. Let's also not forget the MVAM mode is a Console, so the ship is effectively down a console to the bug, in addition to being down a Tac Console (till you get the T4 fleet mvam). So down 2 consoles, it's not as durable, it's not as agile.... woo it can carry Vm... yes, that is sooo special compared to face melt power alright.
The AC has always been a healers ship. Always. Also Gecko wouldn't know Intent of a ships role based on it's boffs if instructions bit him on the TRIBBLE and told him to stop facerolling himself in that spreadsheet.
The Recluse and the voquv, and atrox are all kind of even really.
As far as Gorn goes. Dude it's a DSSV, the DSSV was a TRIBBLE ship, since launch. Now, compare the Orb to say a Intrepid, Sci Bop (which is a better sci ship than the gorn), Fleet Nova, Fleet Recon, Nebula. Much more even slant.
The Bugs "only advantage" is a HUGE advantage and you know it. Now, you want to justify to yourself, that's fine, but quit trying to pass off that as sage advice. We both know better.
While it's true the galor and d'kora are good dmg dealers, they don't outperform every other cruiser in both tanking, healing, dmg and maneuverability.
It's also true feds didn't get super awesome cruisers, but I think a star cruiser is best for healing.
As you said, these lockbox ships compares well with KDF fleet cruisers. From my point of view, they are equal to the fleet vor'cha if not not a little worse.
Now if you compare the bug to other escorts, you will realize you want a fleet tactical one if you really (I mean, really) want that cloak and a fleet carrier one if you plan spamming runabouts.
Aside of the fleet MVAM, there is no real reason to pick anything else than the bug (and I'm not even sure for the MVAM because I don't know how agile are the sections).
for every bit of tactical edge these ships get, they lose more and more of what makes cruisers useful to a team, and they become more and more fragile themselves. the closer you get to the middle ground between cruiser and escort the more ineffective you become. next to the bug, none of these ships are op at all
these ships are hybrids, blurring the line between ship types. the bug is a double downed escort, that also has cruiser hull, consoles and shield mod. there is NO comparison. for the bug to be in the same category it would have to be less escort and more cruiser, like having a TLC and LT eng stations or something.
oh also i dueled a fleet patrol a few times yesterday in my fleet vorcha, that i still haven't got a build i like for yet, i need some engineer training bad. it was VERY durable, and dealt good damage, but i could tank him for several minutes. it was a long attrition battle that he won with his ability to absorb damage so well, and my builds ineffectiveness. it was NOTHING like fighting a bug, the fleet patrol couldn't maneuver or fly around fast enough to capitalize on low shield facings, or alpha nearly hard enough to defeat TT like a bug can so easily. if it wasn't so durable i could have wore it down and killed it like every other non fleet escort. its good, but it only has what makes the bug hard to kill, not what makes it dangerous.
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I'm gonna swap to a DSSV ship, with the "shoe" design. Should allow for easy bug-swatting!
Bug<shoe
But why do none of you KDF players ever equate the fact that your ships ( not all ) have built in cloak? :P
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Because for the most part its junk... out side of the alpha stike... which frankly the defiant does better.
If the only ships feds flew around in where assualt crusiers and star cruisers and fleet escorts... ya the cloak would be a pretty nice advantage... but when they fly around in oddys, and intrepids, and Jems, and Cloaked Defiants... its really not worth what the klink ships trade to get them.
If it's the best, then it has an advantage.
If something has an advantage, it is not balanced, otherwise there would be no advantage.
Logic dictates that it being the best makes it OP and is a fail on balance. This is incontrovertible. And those defending it are making themselves look quite silly. The fact of the matter is we have what is essentially a patrol escort, with the Defiant's firepower, and the turn rate that is in BoP territory. The best of all worlds. No, it's not an I-win button, but if two players of equal skill face off, and one is in a bug, and the other in another escort, the one in the other escort is clearly not going to win. Thus the other player undeniably has an undeserved victory. Defending this is something I can't fathom, that is, defending it without an ulterior motive.
Hell, I'd still get one, but I'd also still support nerfing its durability as well. I'd much rather have the game just balanced properly than have the bug. The sole point of desirability is to maintain parity in most cases. It didn't entirely exist before, but the bug ship's dragged itself across what semblance of parity or balance there was with it's front legs like a dog with an itchy TRIBBLE.
Also, I'd like to point out that comparing it to the BoP to justify the JHAS is fail logic, and actually proves the opposite point. The BoP gave up plenty for battle cloak and turn rate. It's had all of it's best boff loadouts replicated in escorts that give nothing up for them already of course. But the JHAS makes no sacrifice anywhere for it's improvements. The BoP if anything epitomized balance in the gain here/lose there approach.
People will always choose a better item over a lesser so. XII items are fundamentally better than their XI counterparts, are then XII items OverPowered?
Over Powered vs Under Powered, which implies that they go over or under the overall game balance by an extreme, not a moderation.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Saying the defiant has less fire power then the Jem is very misleading. The Regular old Defiant we have been stuck with has less fire power yes.... The fleet version that no one really has yet... no it has cloak + 5 tac slots it will do just fine dps wise.
Have heard this so many times in this game that, I have had enough of it. Excel is OP... Mvam is OP... oh my god Brels can heal while cloaked NERF it.....
Frankly its a bit old and silly at this point... The Jem Ship is a nice ship... I would even say it is the best escort in the game. However I wouldn't say its OP at all. I find they still go boom when I shoot at them... I have seen people in defients tank a stupid amount of dmg... I have seen no evidence that the bug ship is really much more sturdy then any other escort... the turn rate yes its crazy... its just shy of a BOP... lets be honest though ever single OH NOS its OP person would still be calling it such if the turn rate was = to the defiant. Don't fool yourselves otherwise.... The bug has become a convenient scap goat, for other larger issues with the game.
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
well.. I admit... ONE Jem ship is in no way OP compared to FIVE defiants!
I didn't mean 5 defiants, I meant 5 tactical consoles :P
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
If anyone wants one of those 5 Tac Defiants - contact me in game. (also selling Fleet Novas)
Please, the bop wasn't op before those days either. Not even close. I still took them out **** Cheney style, with my AE back in the day.
Nah. My engineer could sleep through their best efforts in his AC.
I agree with the second part of your post. In most cases, BoPs really have to gang up/fight in packs in order to win, because most BoPs have to sacrifice survivability for firepower in order to remain relevant as a DPSer, hence they have difficulty lasting long enough to take an enemy down by themselves in a prolonged 'duel'. Sure, it's possible to build a tanky BoP, to a certain extent. . .but it won't be as good as a well-built 'tank-oriented' escort, simply because of the lower hull and shield mod. Meanwhile, you're sacrificing DPS and tactical mobility for it.
When PvPing, I follow the Zirac method. . .and when you get the timing right, it's quite effective.
I can't wait to get my Fleet Hoh'sus, eventually. It's not as much of an improvement as I'd like to see, but it's better than nothing. That 4th tac console and slight improvement in hull and shield mod will be nice.
Gear can be overcome. A ship having flat out better shield modifiers, agility, impulse speed pivot point, and console slots not so much, if both pilots are equal.
The difference between X and XII while it is noticeable is far from insurmountable. Their dps out puts, crit ranges, weapon properties are all still relatively comparable.
The bug on the other hand, is so vastly superior that there is literally no flight moves, you can pull on a bug that he can't simply counter, his time on target unless he's Trash will be superior to your own, and his ships superior durability and twin universals gives him far more tactical options than you have in any other given ship.
The only ship that stands a chance at getting a Draw is an mvam in a duel with a bug. And that's if he has 3 field generators cranking and Beta Command. Then if the mvam dies, he's flat out out classed in every way to the bug.
Quite simply put, the other guy in the fight will be pulling every move he has in his arsenal to get more time on target against the bug, more disables to render it more defensless, while the bug pilot on the other hand can be virtually asleep at the wheel, unless he is Trash. Not only this, but the Bug to make it worse has more hull, and more shields than some of the cruisers in this bargain bin game. So even the fabled and allegedly OP mvam? Not even in the same league, because it eats a 10 minute cool down AND a console slot AND durability just to get on the same Agility Level as the stupid TRIBBLE Bug. Oh and it eats 3 consoles, just to equal the bugs shield points.
Now if you think that's a good thing, and that it's okay to get victory just because you opened your wallet, I can see why you play this game. Cause you probably couldn't hack it in other games.