the best escort pilots in the game are OP no matter what ship they are in.
there will always be a few either ahead of, or directly on top of the curve....you cannot fault individuals for that, a great pilot will make it work.....even if the turnrate is a little off....or you get a ltcm sci slot instead of a lt....ect ect.....same applies for cruiser pilots, and the oddy....same arguments will persist. just on different powers/build objectives.
Right. If this bug would be a fleet escort, available in both sides, or a zstore ship, a lot of the complaints here would vanish. On the other side, I understand frosty and dontdrunk, they also have a good point. Thing is that with where the game is going and the target at the horizon (not being funny, lol) those will be the new ships, that gradually would replace the old ones. But a great escort pilot (or simply a great pilot) will always kick rear, even if a less experienced player will have a better box ship and will have a slight advantage. I think that's the reality where we are and all we can do is maybe to ask cryptic for more box ships, lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I would agree with prometheus... bugs can fail just as hard as any other ship, and that isn't the bug's fault, it's the pilot's. The best way to put it I think is that it's a force multiplier. A good pilot becomes great in the bug, and a great pilot becomes nigh unstoppable.
In Beta (maybe Gamma) MVAM I can take a good Tac bug about two or three times out of ten.
With anything else there's really no contest, without a dedicated bug-fighting loadout you cannot go toe to toe against one in something like the Saber or the Patrol Escort. With those two, your best chance would be t-beam spam, that and cranking full aux before popping Aux2ID.
I would also agree with dontdrunk, the place I'd start is with the bug's survivability. In just about every serious game under the sun you find a strong tradeoff between damage-dishing capability and innate hardiness, and at the minute the bug doesn't pay (if anything it's rewarded) for its speed and assault power. A glass cannon should be just that: a glass cannon, shiny but easily shattered.
will be the new ships, that gradually would replace the old ones.
sure about that, are you? The fleet ships threathened to approach the Bugs level, and they slapped an extra tac console on it to make sure it's still superior...
I would agree with prometheus... bugs can fail just as hard as any other ship, and that isn't the bug's fault, it's the pilot's. The best way to put it I think is that it's a force multiplier. A good pilot becomes great in the bug, and a great pilot becomes nigh unstoppable.
In Beta (maybe Gamma) MVAM I can take a good Tac bug about two or three times out of ten.
With anything else there's really no contest, without a dedicated bug-fighting loadout you cannot go toe to toe against one in something like the Saber or the Patrol Escort. With those two, your best chance would be t-beam spam, that and cranking full aux before popping Aux2ID.
I would also agree with dontdrunk, the place I'd start is with the bug's survivability. In just about every serious game under the sun you find a strong tradeoff between damage-dishing capability and innate hardiness, and at the minute the bug doesn't pay (if anything it's rewarded) for its speed and assault power. A glass cannon should be just that: a glass cannon, shiny but easily shattered.
Agreed. Every other hard-hitting escort/DPSer out there has to sacrifice at least some survivability to get their advantage (Bops sacrificing hull, shield modifier, and tac consoles in exchange for universal boffs slots and battlecloak, for example). The Defiant is a relatively nimble, hard-hitting escort that sacrificing tanking ability to get it. As others have mentioned, the Jem'hadar doesn't feature this. For all intents and purposes, it's the perfect escort vessel. . .hardest-hitting and as tanky as a MVAE or other 'tanking' escort, if not better. The only thing that screws the JHAS up, as others have said, is the skill of the pilot.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
the skill of the pilot is irreverent sidetracking of the issue anyway, that being that the numbers that determines the ships potential performance are better in every way then all alternatives and it lacks a single dump stat. no ship should have stats that can be described like that in a game that depends on a balance being in place. any one who cant agree to that has had their objectivity compromised.
the skill of the pilot is irreverent sidetracking of the issue anyway, that being that the numbers that determines the ships potential performance are better in every way then all alternatives and it lacks a single dump stat. no ship should have stats that can be described like that in a game that depends on a balance being in place. any one who cant agree to that has had their objectivity compromised.
Dontdrunk, the fleet defiant is very close. In fact, with cloak, may be even worse than the bug, despite a not so good turning rate (which with skills and good equipment/abilities - turn console, aux to id, etc will compensate the bug turn rate easily). I think your point applies also to fleet mvam, 4 sci consoles on an escort doesn't make mvam a bad alternative either. What I'm saying is that the game evolves to superior ships, where bug gets the advantage of better impulse and better turn (all other are really not so important IMO), which is indeed an advantage, but any new fleet ship is greatly superior to old alternatives. I do believe that only a very skilled pilot can beat you in a bug, and also maybe that pilot wouldn't be able to do that (or it would be much harder to do it) on an old escort. In few months, when everybody will have access to new ships, I'm sure we will see more defeated bugs than we see now.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Don't bet on it, I'm already putting together a Fleet Defiant Killer, can't wait for a good scrap but the bug will reign supreme and the whiners that don't have one will keep whining LOL.
You gotta send you wife out on the streets, ransom your kids, rob a bank, whatever it takes, just get a Bug or be bugged by bugs and end up buggered!
At least the mvam can fight any bug to a standstill with enough correct use of VM, tractor locks, and phaser procs. Mind that's about the best you can hope for if both pilots are equally skilled but it's better than the poor fleet defiant is going to fare.
Don't bet on it, I'm already putting together a Fleet Defiant Killer, can't wait for a good scrap but the bug will reign supreme and the whiners that don't have one will keep whining LOL.
You gotta send you wife out on the streets, ransom your kids, rob a bank, whatever it takes, just get a Bug or be bugged by bugs and end up buggered!
I already have the bug. And I only got 2 doffs packages on last day of promotion, last one was the winner. So I'm a lucky TRIBBLE, lol. I'm also planning on getting the defiant and mvam, and im on the same page w frosty, I think Fleet mvam can be a bug killer easier than fleet defiant. Gotta see it though...
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
with all of these talented players posting here, i am continually baffled at the the continued attention to vilify this ship.
its the pilot guys. bugs can be killed, just like any other escort. right in between the tac team cycle. i kill bugs daily.....both in my defiant, and in my bug. (and now in my bleedthru bop)
here is a link to a video by my good friend zorena, its me in my defiant against regulus in his bug. regulus is a well respected pilot from lag industries. not one of us here would hesistate calling him our peer.
with all of these talented players posting here, i am continually baffled at the the continued attention to vilify this ship.
its the pilot guys. bugs can be killed, just like any other escort. right in between the tac team cycle. i kill bugs daily.....both in my defiant, and in my bug. (and now in my bleedthru bop)
here is a link to a video by my good friend zorena, its me in my defiant against regulus in his bug. regulus is a well respected pilot from lag industries. not one of us here would hesistate calling him our peer.
with the proper gameplan and timing, any ship can be defeated in 1v1, and its even easier to do in 5v5 because of all the added variables.
have fun kill bad guys
Yeah, and the bug also can be built accordingly to have multiple tools to survive during the gap between TTs.
The thing is, the Bug also has more offensive tools than any other Escort in it's arsenal due to it's agility. You simply put, get far more opportunities in the bug than you will in any other escort. Especially those that don't have either the same # of consoles, or the agility (or both) I too have hit Reg's bug with a can of raid and I've fought Kedrics to a complete standstill several times. In Beta Command.
The problem is, once beta is done. the only ship that can feesibly do it, can't. The Defiant is the next closest to being able to perform the job, and frankly it has flat out numeric disadvantages as well.
Again go look at my highlight reel of what the bug has vs the other Escorts. It is Flat Out A Better Ship Statistically. You can say "pilot zomg zomg zomg" all you want, but to deny Facts, is well, denying reality. The Bug is a Better Toy than any other Escort in the game, period.
the video was taken from the camera man's perspective....i dont know how he does it, but zorena of tsi has some nice quality vids. if you notice i have a distance value on my reticle box.
and ghostly, im not really arguing, the bug is the best escort. just like the oddy is the best cruiser. or maybe that new tholian carrier is a better healer...idunno, but put an engineer in one of those, and as an escort guy im calling foul!
yet i don't really call foul. and if you don't think that an engineer in a sci oddy isnt horribly healing overpowered, and has the ability to out tank every other ship, and has more opportunities for big team heals, then you have not flown one. but it still has its weaknesses. just like all the ships. the bug gets 1 sci console. there's one. honestly, it needs another one too, prolly mainly a lower hull capacity. leave it the most agile, thats fine....
the video was taken from the camera man's perspective....i dont know how he does it, but zorena of tsi has some nice quality vids. if you notice i have a distance value on my reticle box.
and ghostly, im not really arguing, the bug is the best escort. just like the oddy is the best cruiser. or maybe that new tholian carrier is a better healer...idunno, but put an engineer in one of those, and as an escort guy im calling foul!
yet i don't really call foul. and if you don't think that an engineer in a sci oddy isnt horribly healing overpowered, and has the ability to out tank every other ship, and has more opportunities for big team heals, then you have not flown one. but it still has its weaknesses. just like all the ships. the bug gets 1 sci console. there's one. honestly, it needs another one too, prolly mainly a lower hull capacity. leave it the most agile, thats fine....
They maybe the best, but even they have draw backs namely mobiity compared to other cruisers. Yeah, in 99 percent of cases the Oddy and Reculse are > any other choice save for tacs. But even they have slight drawbacks. There's powers they can't use because of their lack of mobility comparatively speaking, when they roll as healers, namely in the CC dept.
Nah the bugs Shield Mod makes it = to a ship that has 2 field gens believe it or not.
And yes that is the only thing you put in a sci console on an escort these days. It's the Defacto Choice.
Seriously, the bug with a field gen = 3 field gen mvams on shield points. That's not really a draw back. Now if they gave it Saber mods, then yeah I'd be alot more fine with it.
Yeah, and the bug also can be built accordingly to have multiple tools to survive during the gap between TTs.
The thing is, the Bug also has more offensive tools than any other Escort in it's arsenal due to it's agility. You simply put, get far more opportunities in the bug than you will in any other escort. Especially those that don't have either the same # of consoles, or the agility (or both) I too have hit Reg's bug with a can of raid and I've fought Kedrics to a complete standstill several times. In Beta Command.
The problem is, once beta is done. the only ship that can feesibly do it, can't. The Defiant is the next closest to being able to perform the job, and frankly it has flat out numeric disadvantages as well.
Again go look at my highlight reel of what the bug has vs the other Escorts. It is Flat Out A Better Ship Statistically. You can say "pilot zomg zomg zomg" all you want, but to deny Facts, is well, denying reality. The Bug is a Better Toy than any other Escort in the game, period.
Seriously, the bug with a field gen = 3 field gen mvams on shield points. That's not really a draw back. Now if they gave it Saber mods, then yeah I'd be alot more fine with it.
Do you even know what you are saying half of the time?
Saying the oddy isn't better for every one but the bug is is a flawed argument.
Cruisers have more then one role... Escorts DO NOT.
When you have a ship that only has one role, period.
Well sorry its impossible for it not to be true that ONE of the choices is going to be the best one. In this case Cryptic has choose a rare lockbox ship, to inject for people to salivate over. Yes its just a bit better... OP is going far. Would I tone down 1 or 2 things if I was doing it.... I am not sure honestly mabey, but I don't think leaving it as is destroys the balance.
Sure we could hope Cryptic would give us a 100% perfect balance of escorts... but why should they.
They do NOT have a 100% perfect balance on the cruiser end of things... the only reason one cruiser doesn't shine so much over the others even though it gets basicly better everything... is because the cruiser is a multi purpose ship.
Ditto for the Sci ships... One lock box sci ship... gets A Commander Sci... A Lt. Commander Eng... and a Universal Lt. Commander to go with... 3 Tac units with no real cost... sure we could say ya but the turn... but really there is only 1 sci that really out turns it... the rest are either very slightly better or worse.... Yet we don't complain about it do we... I guess perhaps in 10 months when the few left in the system go for 300 mil there may be a small number of sci guys that don't have one that will bring it up.
YES the bug is the best on paper escort.... and very likely the best all round escort real world as well.... SO what. Its still not OP.... single role ships will have a winner. Right now its the bug. I still think in a month or so or what ever it takes... my outlook on that may shift to the Fleet Advanced.
Saying the oddy isn't better for every one but the bug is is a flawed argument.
Cruisers have more then one role... Escorts DO NOT.
When you have a ship that only has one role, period.
Well sorry its impossible for it not to be true that ONE of the choices is going to be the best one. In this case Cryptic has choose a rare lockbox ship, to inject for people to salivate over. Yes its just a bit better... OP is going far. Would I tone down 1 or 2 things if I was doing it.... I am not sure honestly mabey, but I don't think leaving it as is destroys the balance.
Sure we could hope Cryptic would give us a 100% perfect balance of escorts... but why should they.
They do NOT have a 100% perfect balance on the cruiser end of things... the only reason one cruiser doesn't shine so much over the others even though it gets basicly better everything... is because the cruiser is a multi purpose ship.
Ditto for the Sci ships... One lock box sci ship... gets A Commander Sci... A Lt. Commander Eng... and a Universal Lt. Commander to go with... 3 Tac units with no real cost... sure we could say ya but the turn... but really there is only 1 sci that really out turns it... the rest are either very slightly better or worse.... Yet we don't complain about it do we... I guess perhaps in 10 months when the few left in the system go for 300 mil there may be a small number of sci guys that don't have one that will bring it up.
YES the bug is the best on paper escort.... and very likely the best all round escort real world as well.... SO what. Its still not OP.... single role ships will have a winner. Right now its the bug. I still think in a month or so or what ever it takes... my outlook on that may shift to the Fleet Advanced.
To an extent yeah escorts have a single role, but Cryptic has (to some degree) tried to give the escorts different paths to that role. The Patrol and Advanced are tankier in engi and sci respectively with the MVAE going more toward a sci offensive ability with that. The Defiant could be argued to be the pure escort, pretty much just pew pew in philosophy. And the Armitage doing a more cc path. The differences do make sense and they have some tradeoff. They each give up a bit of something as they specialize in their slight variation.
The general problem with the bug is that while it does follow a different path, agility specifically, it doesn't really trade anything. It loses some sci compared to the MVAE but has the same compared to every other escort in BOffs with 1 console less then the Patrol and Defiant. But with the same amount of Engi consoles as the Patrol generally running the same BOff layout...with the same Tac consoles as the Defiant, with Hull just below the Armitage, and shields better then all of them.
Generally it is why I agree with Drunk's suggestion. Just take some away from shield and hull. I'd put it just below the Defiant in Hull with the same shields.
lets all get real though... no amount of QQ is going to change it. Doing so would effect any future sales of lockbox items... I am not saying Cryptic has a ton of trust... but changing specs on ships people dropped a ton of real life $ on would not go over well.
Its a lockbox ship and this is a F2P game based on the policy that Slightly out of balance = Money in our pockets.
I have come to terms with the fact that this game is F2P... we can debate the advantages of a perfect balance system... and a perfectly imbalanced system.
This game started its life with devs going for the perfect balance system...
It was bought by a company that has almost perfected, and really has created the template for how to monetize a perfectly imbalanced system to create income on a game they give away.
There will be no more... this ship has this so this ship looses this stuff...
EVERY SINGLE lock box ship at this point is going to be BETTER plain out... in almost every way. To at least a degree. I point out the multi role because it seems to be less obvious to some on the cruisers and the sci ships.... (but make no mistake they where desgined to be BETTER then the other ships... some even got special weapons that where also designed ot be better)
Make no mistake future lockbox escorts will continue to be better then any zen store or in game grind aquire ship.
The questions you need to ask yourselves at this point...
Can I cope with and still enjoy this game knowing that its now a Perfectly Imbalance concept design... meaning there is likely always going to be a handful of ships and items that are plain better?
OR
Do I agree with the Perfect Imbalance system ?
I have asked myself both questions and I can say... that I am fine with the P2W as long as they don't go to far. (the bug is the closest to going over... but I don't think it does myself)
Yes I can live with the idea of perfect imbalance... in fact I think I argued for to much balance previously.
Really at this point I fly my bug when I feel like it... and honestly I don't think its much better then the 11 or so other combos I have on my other toons... can't wait to see how crazy the next lockbox ship will be. :> lol
Dontdrunk, the fleet defiant is very close. In fact, with cloak, may be even worse than the bug, despite a not so good turning rate (which with skills and good equipment/abilities - turn console, aux to id, etc will compensate the bug turn rate easily). I think your point applies also to fleet mvam, 4 sci consoles on an escort doesn't make mvam a bad alternative either. What I'm saying is that the game evolves to superior ships, where bug gets the advantage of better impulse and better turn (all other are really not so important IMO), which is indeed an advantage, but any new fleet ship is greatly superior to old alternatives. I do believe that only a very skilled pilot can beat you in a bug, and also maybe that pilot wouldn't be able to do that (or it would be much harder to do it) on an old escort. In few months, when everybody will have access to new ships, I'm sure we will see more defeated bugs than we see now.
in case it wasn't clear, im not anymore happy that those things exist too. thats all fine and good that there will be ships that can more easily fight the bug on its own level, but that just means everyone else will that much more commonly terrorized by escorts with over the top firepower. the game is not in a better place with the more bug level ships there are.
with all of these talented players posting here, i am continually baffled at the the continued attention to vilify this ship.
its the pilot guys. bugs can be killed, just like any other escort. right in between the tac team cycle. i kill bugs daily.....both in my defiant, and in my bug. (and now in my bleedthru bop)
here is a link to a video by my good friend zorena, its me in my defiant against regulus in his bug. regulus is a well respected pilot from lag industries. not one of us here would hesistate calling him our peer.
with the proper gameplan and timing, any ship can be defeated in 1v1, and its even easier to do in 5v5 because of all the added variables.
have fun kill bad guys
you completely took away his ability to turn with those mines, and thus his ability to fight. beyond skill, stats and everything else, that factor won that fight. plus his build didn't seem great, i couldn't even tell if he had a single copy of omega. and torpedoes? lol for killing noobs quickest maybe, but not in an escort duel, not ever. regardless of the skill you 2 had your build shut his ability to do anything down, he was just flying a nondescript ball of hitpoints at that points. his damage score was half of what yours was, his forward weapons were cold 80% of that fight. and judging by the healing did he even have borg set or distro doffs?
last time i took my raptor for a spin right before i got my ktinga, i did similar to a bug, killed it with a tractor beam and some crummy mkX chrono mines that a fleet support ship had dropped. equipped them for the lulz and they all but guaranteed escort duel victory. killed him a few times that match, he was understandably pissed. all you need to do is remove movement and any escort has the firepower to kill any other escort. does that make me think that the bug is fine the way it is because i could beat it in a raptor of all things? god no.
how an inferior bug build fares against a superior any other escort build is no litmus test, the bug still terrorizes any other non escort in an unparalleled fashion, with its stats its the only escort a cruiser cant out attrition without SIGNIFICANT effort since it basically has the same hitpoints as most cruisers and twice the firepower or more. against a non escort a bug can easily have a 90% on target forward gun up time.
Ditto for the Sci ships... One lock box sci ship... gets A Commander Sci... A Lt. Commander Eng... and a Universal Lt. Commander to go with... 3 Tac units with no real cost... sure we could say ya but the turn... but really there is only 1 sci that really out turns it... the rest are either very slightly better or worse.... Yet we don't complain about it do we... I guess perhaps in 10 months when the few left in the system go for 300 mil there may be a small number of sci guys that don't have one that will bring it up.
the other lockbox ships are nothing like the bug. with the galor and dkora, their enhancements are to their secondary focus, damage. support and survivability are their primary focus, that was dipped into to give them more offense. they are some of the more ineffective ships at doing what a cruiser is supposed to do, they are just kinda fun to kirk around in.
the tholian ships for what ever reason were given the tools to be the best science based support ships possible, with the absolutely ideal station configurations for that goal. or they can science really well, but science is kind of lame currently.
then theres the bug. was its non primary role enhanced just like all the other lockbox ships? hell no, they took every stat that effects its ability to do its primary roll, and buffed it up to 11, or 15, wile at the same time they buffed its defense to inappropriate levels. everything else fits fine within perfect imbalance, and that makes it interesting. the bug is beyond that, and drains the fun out of every match it participates in when allowed to run wild.
in case it wasn't clear, im not anymore happy that those things exist too. thats all fine and good that there will be ships that can more easily fight the bug on its own level, but that just means everyone else will that much more commonly terrorized by escorts with over the top firepower. the game is not in a better place with the more bug level ships there are.
...
then theres the bug. was its non primary role enhanced just like all the other lockbox ships? hell no, they took every stat that effects its ability to do its primary roll, and buffed it up to 11, or 15, wile at the same time they buffed its defense to inappropriate levels. everything else fits fine within perfect imbalance, and that makes it interesting. the bug is beyond that, and drains the fun out of every match it participates in when allowed to run wild.
Just want to say kudos to everything you said. All very true.
There have been matches when my Jemmy has been stopped in it's tracks and I'm left with the puzzled expression on my face like a cat that's just had it's catnip removed.
On a side note, I'm a bit dismayed at the level of grief that gets opened up against that ship in arena or C&H. People take things way to personally and sometimes feels like the Jemmy becomes the ONLY target.
Jemmy + good healer = invincibility. Without a doubt.
This is still going on after TWENTY SIX PAGES? The BUG is OP, we know this. It's been said by everyone in and out of the game and on these forums since it's inception. This has been discussed to exaustion. You all know the BUG isn't going to be nerfed. Why would it? People don't tend to buy stuff thats less capable then what could be gained from normal play.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
This is still going on after TWENTY SIX PAGES? The BUG is OP, we know this. It's been said by everyone in and out of the game and on these forums since it's inception. This has been discussed to exaustion. You all know the BUG isn't going to be nerfed. Why would it? People don't tend to buy stuff thats less capable then what could be gained from normal play.
lets all get real though... no amount of QQ is going to change it. Doing so would effect any future sales of lockbox items... I am not saying Cryptic has a ton of trust... but changing specs on ships people dropped a ton of real life $ on would not go over well.
Its a lockbox ship and this is a F2P game based on the policy that Slightly out of balance = Money in our pockets.
I have come to terms with the fact that this game is F2P... we can debate the advantages of a perfect balance system... and a perfectly imbalanced system.
This game started its life with devs going for the perfect balance system...
It was bought by a company that has almost perfected, and really has created the template for how to monetize a perfectly imbalanced system to create income on a game they give away.
There will be no more... this ship has this so this ship looses this stuff...
EVERY SINGLE lock box ship at this point is going to be BETTER plain out... in almost every way. To at least a degree. I point out the multi role because it seems to be less obvious to some on the cruisers and the sci ships.... (but make no mistake they where desgined to be BETTER then the other ships... some even got special weapons that where also designed ot be better)
Make no mistake future lockbox escorts will continue to be better then any zen store or in game grind aquire ship.
The questions you need to ask yourselves at this point...
Can I cope with and still enjoy this game knowing that its now a Perfectly Imbalance concept design... meaning there is likely always going to be a handful of ships and items that are plain better?
OR
Do I agree with the Perfect Imbalance system ?
I have asked myself both questions and I can say... that I am fine with the P2W as long as they don't go to far. (the bug is the closest to going over... but I don't think it does myself)
Yes I can live with the idea of perfect imbalance... in fact I think I argued for to much balance previously.
Really at this point I fly my bug when I feel like it... and honestly I don't think its much better then the 11 or so other combos I have on my other toons... can't wait to see how crazy the next lockbox ship will be. :> lol
Perfectly imbalanced does not mean better so you'll drop tons of real life cash for it.
Perfectly imbalanced means it looks OP till you figure out what it is weak against then that becomes the new flavor of the month. This way the meta game always evolves just on the merit of what paper, scissor or rock beats what that month. In other words there is always a way to work the curve.
The bug has so many advantages and so few drawbacks that for the foreseeable future nothing will beat it till them come out with a new escort lockbox. That my friend is not perfect imbalance.
If you are a pickle in a pickle jar you know every pickle's different, sort of, but really they're all just pickles...
Actually yes. I do. You act like we don't know how to do math. Or that some how we don't have access to stats.
Yes you did the "math" for an older ship, not bothering to compare it to the new fleet advanced escort which comes with a better shield modifier, or considered what mode said ship was even in.
Furthermore I think my post clearly pointed out the nill difference between shields and hull here, yet you glorify those minor numbers as some kind of game breaking mechanic. FURTHERMORE, Field Generators? Really? ~
PvP 1v1, before you type, please. Until then, I recommend questioning your reasoning behind "You suck because I never PvPd you"
Yes you did the "math" for an older ship, not bothering to compare it to the new fleet advanced escort which comes with a better shield modifier, or considered what mode said ship was even in.
Furthermore I think my post clearly pointed out the nill difference between shields and hull here, yet you glorify those minor numbers as some kind of game breaking mechanic. FURTHERMORE, Field Generators? Really? ~
Make sure you guys get a video with the skirmish and post it. I wanna see it. So what's gonna be, bug vs ... Or fleet patrol vs ...?
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
PvP 1v1, before you type, please. Until then, I recommend questioning your reasoning behind "You suck because I never PvPd you"
Yes you did the "math" for an older ship, not bothering to compare it to the new fleet advanced escort which comes with a better shield modifier, or considered what mode said ship was even in.
Furthermore I think my post clearly pointed out the nill difference between shields and hull here, yet you glorify those minor numbers as some kind of game breaking mechanic. FURTHERMORE, Field Generators? Really? ~
1 no one knows who you are. You're a pug hero, and have stated this many times with your "I 1v5 I am legendary!" rants.
Actually even for the new MVAM in Command mode it will come up short. Sorry again kiddo. I've already covered that little detail. It's not my fault you are as illiterate as you are poor for teamplay. Minor #s mean a big deal in MMOs. The sooner you learn that the faster you'll stop being a faceroller. To say nothing of the other myriad of advantages the bug still has over the fleet ships which I also covered, again lrn2read. Maybe I should get you http://www.youtube.com/user/hookedonphonicstv?feature=results_main for christmas?
RE RE about small differences, the "small" differences between the Oddy, starcruiser and assault cruiser were enough to put the AC and SC into virtual Rest Home Status. The only people left flying them are those that refuse to buy something so hideous for a performance gain, and people that don't know better. The funny thing is the bug has many many more small gains than the Oddy does compared to standard cruisers.
Frosty, I think you criticize all p2w games business models. You either have to play this game as a full time job, to grind enough dilithium and exchange it for z credits (and really, who can really afford it except few people) and buy all the goodies, either open your wallet. Husanak nailed it right, you want to stay competitive, maybe even getting a slight edge, you must buy the zstore ships or open lots of boxes and take your chances in winning a better ship. This game is not what it was before pwe acquired cryptic, it follows a different model that by definition creates advantages for people that get best gear. And right now, this seems to work for cryptic better than it worked in the past, when they tried to have more ballanced ships/gear. I'm pretty sure mwo will follow the same path. The only difference would be that the gear may be less expensive (or more for that reason). P2w seems to be the key to success for mmos these days.
What I would do, is to offer some "upgrade" option that would transform your ship in a +1, or another upgrade that will give you whatever station in a ship as a universal. It would still mean "open your wallet" but let some people to keep their favorite choice ship.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Frosty, I think you criticize all p2w games business models. You either have to play this game as a full time job, to grind enough dilithium and exchange it for z credits (and really, who can really afford it except few people) and buy all the goodies, either open your wallet. Husanak nailed it right, you want to stay competitive, maybe even getting a slight edge, you must buy the zstore ships or open lots of boxes and take your chances in winning a better ship. This game is not what it was before pwe acquired cryptic, it follows a different model that by definition creates advantages for people that get best gear. And right now, this seems to work for cryptic better than it worked in the past, when they tried to have more ballanced ships/gear. I'm pretty sure mwo will follow the same path. The only difference would be that the gear may be less expensive (or more for that reason). P2w seems to be the key to success for mmos these days.
What I would do, is to offer some "upgrade" option that would transform your ship in a +1, or another upgrade that will give you whatever station in a ship as a universal. It would still mean "open your wallet" but let some people to keep their favorite choice ship.
That would be cool except a lot of us have ships that are Tier I to III of which are our favorite ships. Mine is the Miranda Class. I love that ship design. Second is the Ambassador, third is my Galaxy Class.
That would be cool except a lot of us have ships that are Tier I to III of which are our favorite ships. Mine is the Miranda Class. I love that ship design. Second is the Ambassador, third is my Galaxy Class.
I'm sure cryptic will follow up with something like this, so far we have fleet saber (edit: or escort carrier for that reason with Akira skin). I bet they'll add more ships from lower tiers as new fleet ships or box ships. For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised to offer opposite faction ships as mirror universe box ship, with cloak and all the goodies. Heck, if that means more sales, why wouldn't they do it, lol.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Comments
Right. If this bug would be a fleet escort, available in both sides, or a zstore ship, a lot of the complaints here would vanish. On the other side, I understand frosty and dontdrunk, they also have a good point. Thing is that with where the game is going and the target at the horizon (not being funny, lol) those will be the new ships, that gradually would replace the old ones. But a great escort pilot (or simply a great pilot) will always kick rear, even if a less experienced player will have a better box ship and will have a slight advantage. I think that's the reality where we are and all we can do is maybe to ask cryptic for more box ships, lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
In Beta (maybe Gamma) MVAM I can take a good Tac bug about two or three times out of ten.
With anything else there's really no contest, without a dedicated bug-fighting loadout you cannot go toe to toe against one in something like the Saber or the Patrol Escort. With those two, your best chance would be t-beam spam, that and cranking full aux before popping Aux2ID.
I would also agree with dontdrunk, the place I'd start is with the bug's survivability. In just about every serious game under the sun you find a strong tradeoff between damage-dishing capability and innate hardiness, and at the minute the bug doesn't pay (if anything it's rewarded) for its speed and assault power. A glass cannon should be just that: a glass cannon, shiny but easily shattered.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
sure about that, are you? The fleet ships threathened to approach the Bugs level, and they slapped an extra tac console on it to make sure it's still superior...
Agreed. Every other hard-hitting escort/DPSer out there has to sacrifice at least some survivability to get their advantage (Bops sacrificing hull, shield modifier, and tac consoles in exchange for universal boffs slots and battlecloak, for example). The Defiant is a relatively nimble, hard-hitting escort that sacrificing tanking ability to get it. As others have mentioned, the Jem'hadar doesn't feature this. For all intents and purposes, it's the perfect escort vessel. . .hardest-hitting and as tanky as a MVAE or other 'tanking' escort, if not better. The only thing that screws the JHAS up, as others have said, is the skill of the pilot.
Dontdrunk, the fleet defiant is very close. In fact, with cloak, may be even worse than the bug, despite a not so good turning rate (which with skills and good equipment/abilities - turn console, aux to id, etc will compensate the bug turn rate easily). I think your point applies also to fleet mvam, 4 sci consoles on an escort doesn't make mvam a bad alternative either. What I'm saying is that the game evolves to superior ships, where bug gets the advantage of better impulse and better turn (all other are really not so important IMO), which is indeed an advantage, but any new fleet ship is greatly superior to old alternatives. I do believe that only a very skilled pilot can beat you in a bug, and also maybe that pilot wouldn't be able to do that (or it would be much harder to do it) on an old escort. In few months, when everybody will have access to new ships, I'm sure we will see more defeated bugs than we see now.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
At least the mvam can fight any bug to a standstill with enough correct use of VM, tractor locks, and phaser procs. Mind that's about the best you can hope for if both pilots are equally skilled but it's better than the poor fleet defiant is going to fare.
I already have the bug. And I only got 2 doffs packages on last day of promotion, last one was the winner. So I'm a lucky TRIBBLE, lol. I'm also planning on getting the defiant and mvam, and im on the same page w frosty, I think Fleet mvam can be a bug killer easier than fleet defiant. Gotta see it though...
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
its the pilot guys. bugs can be killed, just like any other escort. right in between the tac team cycle. i kill bugs daily.....both in my defiant, and in my bug. (and now in my bleedthru bop)
here is a link to a video by my good friend zorena, its me in my defiant against regulus in his bug. regulus is a well respected pilot from lag industries. not one of us here would hesistate calling him our peer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSMPhsVkJNY&feature=plcp
with the proper gameplan and timing, any ship can be defeated in 1v1, and its even easier to do in 5v5 because of all the added variables.
have fun kill bad guys
Yeah, and the bug also can be built accordingly to have multiple tools to survive during the gap between TTs.
The thing is, the Bug also has more offensive tools than any other Escort in it's arsenal due to it's agility. You simply put, get far more opportunities in the bug than you will in any other escort. Especially those that don't have either the same # of consoles, or the agility (or both) I too have hit Reg's bug with a can of raid and I've fought Kedrics to a complete standstill several times. In Beta Command.
The problem is, once beta is done. the only ship that can feesibly do it, can't. The Defiant is the next closest to being able to perform the job, and frankly it has flat out numeric disadvantages as well.
Again go look at my highlight reel of what the bug has vs the other Escorts. It is Flat Out A Better Ship Statistically. You can say "pilot zomg zomg zomg" all you want, but to deny Facts, is well, denying reality. The Bug is a Better Toy than any other Escort in the game, period.
and ghostly, im not really arguing, the bug is the best escort. just like the oddy is the best cruiser. or maybe that new tholian carrier is a better healer...idunno, but put an engineer in one of those, and as an escort guy im calling foul!
yet i don't really call foul. and if you don't think that an engineer in a sci oddy isnt horribly healing overpowered, and has the ability to out tank every other ship, and has more opportunities for big team heals, then you have not flown one. but it still has its weaknesses. just like all the ships. the bug gets 1 sci console. there's one. honestly, it needs another one too, prolly mainly a lower hull capacity. leave it the most agile, thats fine....
They maybe the best, but even they have draw backs namely mobiity compared to other cruisers. Yeah, in 99 percent of cases the Oddy and Reculse are > any other choice save for tacs. But even they have slight drawbacks. There's powers they can't use because of their lack of mobility comparatively speaking, when they roll as healers, namely in the CC dept.
Nah the bugs Shield Mod makes it = to a ship that has 2 field gens believe it or not.
And yes that is the only thing you put in a sci console on an escort these days. It's the Defacto Choice.
Seriously, the bug with a field gen = 3 field gen mvams on shield points. That's not really a draw back. Now if they gave it Saber mods, then yeah I'd be alot more fine with it.
You'd hate to fight me in PvP ;3
Do you even know what you are saying half of the time?
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Cruisers have more then one role... Escorts DO NOT.
When you have a ship that only has one role, period.
Well sorry its impossible for it not to be true that ONE of the choices is going to be the best one. In this case Cryptic has choose a rare lockbox ship, to inject for people to salivate over. Yes its just a bit better... OP is going far. Would I tone down 1 or 2 things if I was doing it.... I am not sure honestly mabey, but I don't think leaving it as is destroys the balance.
Sure we could hope Cryptic would give us a 100% perfect balance of escorts... but why should they.
They do NOT have a 100% perfect balance on the cruiser end of things... the only reason one cruiser doesn't shine so much over the others even though it gets basicly better everything... is because the cruiser is a multi purpose ship.
Ditto for the Sci ships... One lock box sci ship... gets A Commander Sci... A Lt. Commander Eng... and a Universal Lt. Commander to go with... 3 Tac units with no real cost... sure we could say ya but the turn... but really there is only 1 sci that really out turns it... the rest are either very slightly better or worse.... Yet we don't complain about it do we... I guess perhaps in 10 months when the few left in the system go for 300 mil there may be a small number of sci guys that don't have one that will bring it up.
YES the bug is the best on paper escort.... and very likely the best all round escort real world as well.... SO what. Its still not OP.... single role ships will have a winner. Right now its the bug. I still think in a month or so or what ever it takes... my outlook on that may shift to the Fleet Advanced.
Are you drunk? I bet you're just a faceroller that does 'well" in kerrat. You got nothin on me kiddo.
Actually yes. I do. You act like we don't know how to do math. Or that some how we don't have access to stats.
To an extent yeah escorts have a single role, but Cryptic has (to some degree) tried to give the escorts different paths to that role. The Patrol and Advanced are tankier in engi and sci respectively with the MVAE going more toward a sci offensive ability with that. The Defiant could be argued to be the pure escort, pretty much just pew pew in philosophy. And the Armitage doing a more cc path. The differences do make sense and they have some tradeoff. They each give up a bit of something as they specialize in their slight variation.
The general problem with the bug is that while it does follow a different path, agility specifically, it doesn't really trade anything. It loses some sci compared to the MVAE but has the same compared to every other escort in BOffs with 1 console less then the Patrol and Defiant. But with the same amount of Engi consoles as the Patrol generally running the same BOff layout...with the same Tac consoles as the Defiant, with Hull just below the Armitage, and shields better then all of them.
Generally it is why I agree with Drunk's suggestion. Just take some away from shield and hull. I'd put it just below the Defiant in Hull with the same shields.
Its a lockbox ship and this is a F2P game based on the policy that Slightly out of balance = Money in our pockets.
I have come to terms with the fact that this game is F2P... we can debate the advantages of a perfect balance system... and a perfectly imbalanced system.
This game started its life with devs going for the perfect balance system...
It was bought by a company that has almost perfected, and really has created the template for how to monetize a perfectly imbalanced system to create income on a game they give away.
There will be no more... this ship has this so this ship looses this stuff...
EVERY SINGLE lock box ship at this point is going to be BETTER plain out... in almost every way. To at least a degree. I point out the multi role because it seems to be less obvious to some on the cruisers and the sci ships.... (but make no mistake they where desgined to be BETTER then the other ships... some even got special weapons that where also designed ot be better)
Make no mistake future lockbox escorts will continue to be better then any zen store or in game grind aquire ship.
The questions you need to ask yourselves at this point...
Can I cope with and still enjoy this game knowing that its now a Perfectly Imbalance concept design... meaning there is likely always going to be a handful of ships and items that are plain better?
OR
Do I agree with the Perfect Imbalance system ?
I have asked myself both questions and I can say... that I am fine with the P2W as long as they don't go to far. (the bug is the closest to going over... but I don't think it does myself)
Yes I can live with the idea of perfect imbalance... in fact I think I argued for to much balance previously.
Really at this point I fly my bug when I feel like it... and honestly I don't think its much better then the 11 or so other combos I have on my other toons... can't wait to see how crazy the next lockbox ship will be. :> lol
in case it wasn't clear, im not anymore happy that those things exist too. thats all fine and good that there will be ships that can more easily fight the bug on its own level, but that just means everyone else will that much more commonly terrorized by escorts with over the top firepower. the game is not in a better place with the more bug level ships there are.
you completely took away his ability to turn with those mines, and thus his ability to fight. beyond skill, stats and everything else, that factor won that fight. plus his build didn't seem great, i couldn't even tell if he had a single copy of omega. and torpedoes? lol for killing noobs quickest maybe, but not in an escort duel, not ever. regardless of the skill you 2 had your build shut his ability to do anything down, he was just flying a nondescript ball of hitpoints at that points. his damage score was half of what yours was, his forward weapons were cold 80% of that fight. and judging by the healing did he even have borg set or distro doffs?
last time i took my raptor for a spin right before i got my ktinga, i did similar to a bug, killed it with a tractor beam and some crummy mkX chrono mines that a fleet support ship had dropped. equipped them for the lulz and they all but guaranteed escort duel victory. killed him a few times that match, he was understandably pissed. all you need to do is remove movement and any escort has the firepower to kill any other escort. does that make me think that the bug is fine the way it is because i could beat it in a raptor of all things? god no.
how an inferior bug build fares against a superior any other escort build is no litmus test, the bug still terrorizes any other non escort in an unparalleled fashion, with its stats its the only escort a cruiser cant out attrition without SIGNIFICANT effort since it basically has the same hitpoints as most cruisers and twice the firepower or more. against a non escort a bug can easily have a 90% on target forward gun up time.
the other lockbox ships are nothing like the bug. with the galor and dkora, their enhancements are to their secondary focus, damage. support and survivability are their primary focus, that was dipped into to give them more offense. they are some of the more ineffective ships at doing what a cruiser is supposed to do, they are just kinda fun to kirk around in.
the tholian ships for what ever reason were given the tools to be the best science based support ships possible, with the absolutely ideal station configurations for that goal. or they can science really well, but science is kind of lame currently.
then theres the bug. was its non primary role enhanced just like all the other lockbox ships? hell no, they took every stat that effects its ability to do its primary roll, and buffed it up to 11, or 15, wile at the same time they buffed its defense to inappropriate levels. everything else fits fine within perfect imbalance, and that makes it interesting. the bug is beyond that, and drains the fun out of every match it participates in when allowed to run wild.
Just want to say kudos to everything you said. All very true.
There have been matches when my Jemmy has been stopped in it's tracks and I'm left with the puzzled expression on my face like a cat that's just had it's catnip removed.
On a side note, I'm a bit dismayed at the level of grief that gets opened up against that ship in arena or C&H. People take things way to personally and sometimes feels like the Jemmy becomes the ONLY target.
Jemmy + good healer = invincibility. Without a doubt.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
The End
I'm selling them....cheap. PM me in-game.
Perfectly imbalanced does not mean better so you'll drop tons of real life cash for it.
Perfectly imbalanced means it looks OP till you figure out what it is weak against then that becomes the new flavor of the month. This way the meta game always evolves just on the merit of what paper, scissor or rock beats what that month. In other words there is always a way to work the curve.
The bug has so many advantages and so few drawbacks that for the foreseeable future nothing will beat it till them come out with a new escort lockbox. That my friend is not perfect imbalance.
PvP 1v1, before you type, please. Until then, I recommend questioning your reasoning behind "You suck because I never PvPd you"
Yes you did the "math" for an older ship, not bothering to compare it to the new fleet advanced escort which comes with a better shield modifier, or considered what mode said ship was even in.
Furthermore I think my post clearly pointed out the nill difference between shields and hull here, yet you glorify those minor numbers as some kind of game breaking mechanic. FURTHERMORE, Field Generators? Really? ~
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
Make sure you guys get a video with the skirmish and post it. I wanna see it. So what's gonna be, bug vs ... Or fleet patrol vs ...?
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Wish I had fleet patrol, it is beautiful
| Join Date: January 2009 | Computer | Fleet: Broken Wings |
1 no one knows who you are. You're a pug hero, and have stated this many times with your "I 1v5 I am legendary!" rants.
Actually even for the new MVAM in Command mode it will come up short. Sorry again kiddo. I've already covered that little detail. It's not my fault you are as illiterate as you are poor for teamplay. Minor #s mean a big deal in MMOs. The sooner you learn that the faster you'll stop being a faceroller. To say nothing of the other myriad of advantages the bug still has over the fleet ships which I also covered, again lrn2read. Maybe I should get you http://www.youtube.com/user/hookedonphonicstv?feature=results_main for christmas?
RE RE about small differences, the "small" differences between the Oddy, starcruiser and assault cruiser were enough to put the AC and SC into virtual Rest Home Status. The only people left flying them are those that refuse to buy something so hideous for a performance gain, and people that don't know better. The funny thing is the bug has many many more small gains than the Oddy does compared to standard cruisers.
What I would do, is to offer some "upgrade" option that would transform your ship in a +1, or another upgrade that will give you whatever station in a ship as a universal. It would still mean "open your wallet" but let some people to keep their favorite choice ship.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
That would be cool except a lot of us have ships that are Tier I to III of which are our favorite ships. Mine is the Miranda Class. I love that ship design. Second is the Ambassador, third is my Galaxy Class.
I'm sure cryptic will follow up with something like this, so far we have fleet saber (edit: or escort carrier for that reason with Akira skin). I bet they'll add more ships from lower tiers as new fleet ships or box ships. For that reason, I wouldn't be surprised to offer opposite faction ships as mirror universe box ship, with cloak and all the goodies. Heck, if that means more sales, why wouldn't they do it, lol.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...