Sins having best DPS in game

Firefeng - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is already a level 100 Sin with demon spark on Dreamweaver.

This proves you are stupid and need to shut up before you get yourself hurt.

Ri$en is a cash shopping player who has cash shopped his way to level 10x and his rank 8 gear. He also does not have demon spark because no amount of cash shopping can shop you a skill or spark that hasn't yet been coded into the game. Duuuuuuuur.

I ignored the rest of your post. Why?

It's already been said that Sins have the potential endgame ability to out DPS any other class and - yes - even with the limited maths we have at the moment this theory seems to be true.

The point is however, if you cannot use this DPS fully (save for PK) then it is pointless to brag about and pointless to claim you can out DD any class when you have to nerf on a boss as much as the next archer or wizard does.

/thread

Arguement still going on ?

Pretty pointless TBH since most of us Sins will not be able to get 5atk/s (same as most Bm's)due to the cost of doing it.

People should worry more about what they can do, not what they might be able to do. Maybe get more invites to squads that way.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but the issue this thread was meant to discuss was wether sins were THEORETHICALLY the highest dps in game. Wether this makes them the best dps class, the discussion is actually practical, or wether we should even be preocupied with it may be legitimate issues but not the point being contended.

Yes, sins may very well be an overpowered class. That their skills allow them to take hits in a manner other DDs can't, that they can use stealth to basically survive most PvE/PvP scenarios and that they may well be theoretically proven the potential highest dps in game all point to unbalance. However this isn't about the natural desire of other classes to affirm their relevance.

This is simply about proving a claim made in disgustingly arrogant and conceited terms. Unfortunately it seems what math has been made available points to confirming a claim that threatens to make as much as 4 classes in the game obsolete. As a veno (without an herc i may add) this concerns me as a class, being faced with a 30% debuff that stacks with extreme poison and seemingly the use of stealth to lure effectively (as if zeal hadn't already made puller an obsolete role), meaning sins can take over my class role effectively while bringing considerable DD prowess to the table. Since pets providing useful DD against (?) bosses seems to rely more on their ability to do so without stealing aggro or the little consequence it has if they sometimes do, an issue that may eventually be overcome by skilled sins, i am certainly well aware of the importance of discussing these matters.

However, this thread is about discussing max dps output. That sins may outdamage other classes even without 5 attacks a second (which now that some preliminary numbers have been obtained seems likely with even modest amounts of interval gear) makes this a much more important discussion than it may seem. As far as i'm concerned the issue is close to being settled, and it seems very likely it will not be on the side of a balanced field. It's over 50k damage per second that we are talking about, without any mp usage and the ability to have 2 sparks on command. In PvP it may not even be prevented because of the surprise factor intrinsic to stealth. With 90% dmg reduction this is still 5k a second. Even half that may be sufficient to bring down most classes within a couple of secs, and sins still have skills to not only deal with HA types but to escape unharmed even if someone manages a defense.

Now, to me that is what is at stake on this discussion so i would really appreciate any help in determining what this potential dps is, and it's realtive advantage, before we start wallowing in denial about it's irrelevance...

ShadowsWrath - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The dmg for PvP isnt really an issue and not a game breaker in itself. Since it will require gimped out gear, its not like every Sin will be running around doing that dmg.

Note: Bm's with gimped out claws can get the same 50k ish dmg range

And TBH 50k before dmg reduction is nothing to a Wiz hitting for 100k after dmg reduction.

52,195/2(50%pvp dmg reduction)=26,097/4(75%decent armor)=6524 which should kill most other classes (phys dmg vs Arcane[4]LA[1])in a couple of seconds. And i'm not including the 30% crit a lvl 100 sin is getting at minimum, nor use of skills. This is average dps not a big hit. And where are you getting your figures for wizz/fistie? Any info on that would actually be appreciated.

Edit; Including the nominal crit rate on average dps brings it to 67,854, how much would an undergeared sin be hittin for at that level? Half that?

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

52,195/2(50%pvp dmg reduction)=26,097/4(75%decent armor)=6524 which should kill most other classes (phys dmg vs Arcane[4]LA[1])in a couple of seconds.

PvP damage is reduced by 75%, not 50%.

Also; going back to the thread title.

Sins do not have the best DPS in the game. It's situational.

Like Elena mentioned, why are we neglecting AoE for candidature for highest DPS?

You all make silly assumptions like unlimited cash/coin/gold/creditcards why can't people assume AoE'ing an indefinite amount of foes (PvE or PvP)?

If you ask me, I would say Demon Barrage on an infinite number of foes takes the crown.

Now then, looks like the argument is over because of the title.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If there is an infinite number of targets, then any class can deal an infinite amount of damage with a single use of an AoE skill. This order of infinity is the same for each class (the same order as whole numbers). Further attacks against an infinite number of targets will not increase the order of infinity; this can be proven by using mathematical small induction or large induction. This is also true regardless of how often further attacks can be executed. In other words, attack rate and skill-cast rate are meaningless, given an infinite number of targets.

So if there is an infinite number of targets available, then all classes deal the an infinite amount of damage per second, with the same order of infinity, so long as every class has an AoE skill. This means all classes are equal.

However, we have to respect the limits of the game. Just as there is a software limit on the number of attacks per second, there is also a hardware limit on the memory usage of the game. Assuming a 64-bit processor, the addressing space would be 2^64 bytes, unless PWI was coded to have separate threads with separate addressing spaces for the purposes of handling mobs. I highly doubt they would do that, so that's 16,777,216 terrabytes of space to hold the data structure(s) representing mobs. While this amount of space can hold a large number of mobs, it is well below infinity.

Um, oops? Perhaps infinite wasn't the best assumption to make then.

Let's settle with "... 16,777,216 terrabytes of space to hold the data structure(s) representing mobs." assuming your numbers are right.

Demon Barrage takes the crown when used on 16,777,216 terrabytes of space to hold the data structure(s) representing mobs.

skyxiii wrote: »

This is getting out of hand.
Look, we're talking about achievable scenarios here. There may be only a small number of people that actually achieve this potential, but it is achievable none the less.

I agree that DPS can be discussed in more ways than one. Area of effect does play a part in DPS and this can't be ignored.

But I believe that the context of this thread is dealing with DPS to a single target, judging by the points that have been brought up by other posters.

I'm just responding to the title. It's a false statement.

If we're arguing DPS then AoE on 50 mobs in 3rd map will certainly be more achievable than the silly many billion coin sin gear investment (if you can even call it an investment...) and do much more "DPS" than a 5aps sin build.

Thing is when an archer sets barrage both in pvp and pve things tend to die really fast.During a TW you get 3 catas on the crystal and 4-5 archers aoeing around the crystal nothing gets near and game over.I doubt even 10 sins can do both that much damage and actually beeing usefull in protecting.Mind you not only sins but no other classes comes close to be that efficient.

@ShadowsWrath; Thank you for the screenie, it really was the last piece of evidence that i needed.
@Ballistyxz; I CONCEDE. I'm man enough to admit that i was wrong. It has now been suficiently proven that SINS THEORICALLY POSSES THE HIGHEST POTENTIAL DPS.
@Ephemerai; You're right, i misread Ecatomb.
@Legerity; Thanks for the correction, the revised figure for PvP dps including a 30% crit rate would now be 4240, still enough to kill most classes in a couple of seconds. As for AoE this is obviously not the point under discussion and only a child would argue that the title was misleading. There are many situational ways in which dps can be so discussed. Some are useful (highest sustained dps without stealing aggro from a competent same level barb) some whimsical (highest dps achieved only using skills with one word names). On the absence of any indication most adults familiar with MMOs would not consider AoE as being a benchmark. Furthermore we are talking about such obscene amounts of dps that sins may actually still come on top of classes capable of sustained aoe by just tab targetting and auto attacking.

I now believe that with the sustained use of skills such as Wolf Emblem and Power Dash a sin's dps may even approach the 100k figure. To me this is worrysome. In PvP being able to access such damage figures through the use of demon spark alone (which can be used under stealth) is devastatingly unbalancing. Sins are the one class that can survive the highest crits even wizzies can achieve (using Deaden Nerves) and can force stealth to disengage from any fight that isn't going their way.

As i've said before (notwithstanding Ephemerai's correction) they threaten to make as many as four classes obsolete in PvE. A high level sin with only interval gear enough for a 3 attacks/second rate could still deal upwards of 30k dps, perhaps 50k with skills. Max dps for a fully geared sin is yet to be ascertained (furthermore it may be improved with the availability of sage/demon). The working figure currently stands at 67,854 dps.

Sins may achieve this using weapons that provide them with full access to all of their skills. They may also benefit from a pure dex build using bows. Add to this their evassion and speed skills and i'm begining to think they pose a real threat to the game's balance. That however is a topic for a different thread. All that remains here is calculating figures for an undergeared sin's damage, as well as max sustained output through the use of skills...

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

nope she is right, it is going deep and very literal but i wont argue against it. but it doesnt change the fact that it only works when aoeing mobs. and i also didnt have aoe in mind when i made this thread. perhaps i should change it to single target dps? but i was under the impression that when someone mentions "DPS" no one goes so deep as to include aoe in it.

someone hasnt taken a peak into his ranged cousin's forum. these ladies provide lots of numbers beyond the expected. id like to do it too, but there isnt much they havent already tested lol.

I really have no idea what this post is suppose to prove other than sins can land more attacks in a second than other classes, which is juts how fast they can hit per sec. Hell a barb could land more damage per sec with one attack if you want to put it that way, it all comes down to the definition like someone brought up.

So it's great and all but what does it mean? Can you aoe a ton of mobs at once? no. If you get debuffed by a bow that has a debuff effect, will it work? no. If you get ganked will it even matter? no. Will you hit your target all the time against someone with killer evasion? no. If you get two-shot by a +12 wep, does it still matter? no.

I don't know why anyone wants to apply a cookie cutter situation to this type of thing, because it just doesn't work. I'm not going to blazing arrow a monster that has fire immunity, I'm not going to use electric attacks on mobs that have metal immunity.

Other than proving that sins can attack faster per sec, and proving a bet, I don't know what people are getting so worked up about. These kind of things really depend on cirumstances, and it would have to be one of those perfect circumstances to have things go your way. Because there will be those ****ty moments where you will miss, (unless you're using magic.) I dunno what the big deal is, show me a video of a bh run or something and show me something impressive about it. Other than that I think everyone is just overreacting a bit.

@MagicHamsta that is frighteningly freakishly aweosme 0_o

Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »

PvP damage is reduced by 75%, not 50%.

Also; going back to the thread title.

Sins do not have the best DPS in the game. It's situational.

Like Elena mentioned, why are we neglecting AoE for candidature for highest DPS?

You all make silly assumptions like unlimited cash/coin/gold/creditcards why can't people assume AoE'ing an indefinite amount of foes (PvE or PvP)?

If you ask me, I would say Demon Barrage on an infinite number of foes takes the crown.

Now then, looks like the argument is over because of the title.

Because it's pointless to consider damage output from AOEs. So what if a class can do 1m damage per sec if there's never enough targets/survivability?
Looking at which class can, for example, take down the timed boss in 3-1 faster, is much more reasonable. There's still no point in doing it in the end but there's far too many variables when you include AOEs. And really, when you want to do a lot of damage as fast as you can it's usually because you're trying to kill a boss... not AOE. (at endgame, obviously)