Assassin vs Fist BM?

I think all the posts comparing DPS, without even knowing how interval stacks work with speed buffs, pretty much makes any technical arguement a waste of time here

Rib Strike doesn't ruin a fist BM's DPS, because they perma-spark in PvE on bosses (no idea why a team mate would target their own party instead of the boss), and they will not be doing Demon sparking in PvP vs. anyone but an arrogant barb outside of very extenuating circumstances. Either way, no go. And no, a 50% attack debuff will not do a flat cut in half rate of their attack speed, it's not how speed buffs work.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

comparing DPS is stupid regardless because no one knows how a sin will work in higher lvls. its all pure speculation. most of the arguments in this thread are only showing what a BM is capable of, but in no way is it proving which of the 2 is better. can we all just say both classes have there own usefulness already like the sane ppl in this thread already stated and stfu about it already x.x we dont even have our sage/demon skills yet.

agrguing about it has been fun, but i think its time to give it a rest now and even if the -50% does not straight cut there atk speed inhalf it does still reduce it which still helps in the long run. but i am tired of arguing this rly. a sin will not be better then a BM and a BM will not be better then a sin. they both specialize in there own areas.

DPS is always and forever going to be auto attack. So it can already be debated, because the attack rate of daggers is known, their damage ratio can be found, and the refinement rate is already in game. The only real unknown is what animation ceiling daggers will have for the max APS.

If anyone thinks a skill exists that will out-damage 5-13 (depends on cast/channel time and how many attacks are used) normal attacks, then they have not given thought to it. It does not matter what adds their demon/sage skills have, it will still not out-do the DPS of normal attack. So unless the interval deficit of daggers is made up somehow, they will not out-DPS fists.

And in the earlier post I did say they had different specialties and each role was equal, was just explaining to budding new assassin's not to listen to incorrect information about assassin's being higher DPS than a fister, and the inanity of even trying to that route instead of building towards their specialty: high damage spikes that cause useful status effects while boosting their spike the longer it goes on. By the time the charm first ticks, they should have enough buff stacks to easily finish off the target before the charm recharges.

Here comes Arrons random Pro's and Con's!! (personal experience)

-Fist BM-
Pros: Survivability, P.def party buff, 1.43 base dps, HP, non-skill reliant, stuns.
Cons: Easier death from mages due to lower mdef.

-Assassin-
Pros: High natural crit, damage, evade, and acc. Stealth, Higher mdef.
Cons: Low pdef and HP, strictly 1v1 with lack of stun and aoe, lower dps than fist, reliant on skills.

Feel free to make edits :P

id just like to add one other thing altho its completely not related to the topic. mage classes like venos/wizards/psys will have a tought time with sins. im only speaking from my experiences and this has NOTHING to do on how they will work in higher lvls. but currently i am having a blast killing off mages. i must have fought 20 mages last night and only 3 out of that 20 actually beat me. a few of them were high lvl then i was and i was able to interrupt so many of there spells and teleport straight to them when they tried to kite.

but the real LOL was when i was fighting this wizard. he was 2 lvls higher then me i beleive. i was able to teleport to him and immobolize so he couldnt kite and intterupt alot of his powerful skills with knife throw and silent. the funny thing is, he nearly killed. he had about half half but i was only at like 300 HP out of the 1.1k i had. so i forced stealth and that saved my **** like litterally. so i used some MP pots to keep me in stealth for a lil while while i let some of my skills cooldown and get a little of my HP back. he had no idea where i was so he litterally ran around like a chicken with his head chopped off lol. he had no idea where i was and he didnt even know wh at to do to defend himself against my inevitable next first atk.

not knowing when i was going to atk him i waited a bit longer to throw him off guard. after i then came up to him and slept him. i then used my sparked that force stealth gave me and i double critted him with rib slash and slip stream lol. lucky crits but it got the job done cuz i was able to take his HP down pretty quick with normal hits and bleed after that. that one was actually the closest he came to beating me. i dueled the guy like 7 or 8 times i swear and he never beat me lol. he was pretty good tho, but he just had absolutely no idea on how to deal with me.

anyway thats just my story i wanted to tell out of boredom. has nothing to do with fist BMs vs sins but idc cuz this thread is about to die anyway XD

idk why ur still bothering with these ppl. its obvious that they cant read or just plain to stupid to understand most things ppl are sayingb:surrender there now even going as far as to go on there lvl 1 alts so they can save themselves embarrassment on there main.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

idk why ur still bothering with these ppl. its obvious that they cant read or just plain to stupid to understand most things ppl are sayingb:surrender there now even going as far as to go on there lvl 1 alts so they can save themselves embarrassment on there main.

It's obvious what people (most anyway) are saying is that a Fist BM can win 1 vs 1 based on logic and statistics, which you seem to have a hard time understanding due to your undying love for Assassins. Personally I'd like to see this thread keep going because some nice debate points have been brought up and (most) people have been mature about it. Sure it's pointless but a good debate topic is never waste of time. Forums aren't always about fanboyism. Remember that people.

And no, this is my only account. I don't use the forum much. The only embarrassment here is you paying attention to people's avatars instead of speaking out against points you don't agree on. It makes you look miserable tbh.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

the more i look at it the more i see it as a rather even machup with a slight edge to the bm

yall be forgeting that

A. attack levels crit amp and zerk all affect geni to

B. bramble rage and T-storm

C. fists are an endgame build sin vs fist pre level 90 or 99 is kinda gimping the fister a little

also a quick thought....what would happen if leap back was used same time as sin tele? or tiger leap? or wizzie blink....

Also idk if anyone said this (kinda busy and didnt read it all xD;) but sins have rib strike and from an earlier post fist bms are all dps right? We can spark more use amp more and i think someone mentioned in a skill spam fight we'd win. So from speculation(by no means a fact seeing as i havent pvp 80+ fist bms nor am i 80+) looks like sins would win. But only time can tell.

E/nY - Sanctuary wrote: »

Also idk if anyone said this (kinda busy and didnt read it all xD;) but sins have rib strike and from an earlier post fist bms are all dps right? We can spark more use amp more and i think someone mentioned in a skill spam fight we'd win. So from speculation(by no means a fact seeing as i havent pvp 80+ fist bms nor am i 80+) looks like sins would win. But only time can tell.

IMO, it depends on player skills.
You amp, (smart)Fist BM stuns you cant take advantage of it.
You can spark more but BMs would have a much larger defense to even it out.
+Phys Def buff
+Diamond Sutra Heal would balance out bloodpaint.
skill spam fight you may win but you'd both be manaless soon...b:surrender

maocchi wrote: »

It's obvious what people (most anyway) are saying is that a Fist BM can win 1 vs 1 based on logic and statistics, which you seem to have a hard time understanding due to your undying love for Assassins. Personally I'd like to see this thread keep going because some nice debate points have been brought up and (most) people have been mature about it. Sure it's pointless but a good debate topic is never waste of time. Forums aren't always about fanboyism. Remember that people.

And no, this is my only account. I don't use the forum much. The only embarrassment here is you paying attention to people's avatars instead of speaking out against points you don't agree on. It makes you look miserable tbh.

sigh.... this post is EXACTLY what im talking about. if u READ most of my post ud see im saying the same thing. a fist BM can win 1v1 no one has denied that... and assassin can also win 1v1. no where in this thread did i ever say an assassin can completly annialate a fist BM 100% of the time. they both have equal chances of winning just like any other class does against a fist BM. most of the things i said was to try and make ppl realize that a assassin can go toe to toe with a fist BM which quite a few ppl in this thread think a sin wont stand a chance against a fist BM. they both have equal chances of winning and it all depends on who is the better player not which class is more OPed compared to the other... so no its not about "fanboyism" or me being in love with the assassin class.

now please, start freaking READING ppls post instead of making urself look stupid with these damn assumptions u want to put on everyone. anyway, ima end this disccussion with u by repeating ur first sentance only chanced around a bit.


It's obvious what people (most anyway) are saying is that a assassin can win 1 vs 1 based on logic and statistic, which you seem to have a hard time understanding due to your undying love for fist BMs.

kthx have a good day b:bye oh and PLEASE learn to ****ing read

uh no not rly. most of us are just saying that a sin can take on a fist BM. but so many ppl in this thread think fist BMs are soooooooo OPed and a sin is sooooooooo weak that they wont be able to do that. all of my post and a few other ppls post have been to make ppl realize that that is not the case. but no matter what we say some of the ppl in this thread just do not want to realize how usefull a sin can be and instead bash how useless they will be and how much better a fist BM will be instead.

what does that sound like to u? if it does sound like im being a bit overprotective then its mainly because ppl just keep on insisting that a sin is going to be utterly useless compared to fist BMs

i think its a whoever stuns 1st type of thing...like the archer wizzy fight scenarios..but an assassin has a sleep an immobilize..a stun a TELESTUN
critstrike boosts...evasion boosts...rage damage boosts...a move that cheats death then heals us after...a move that dec chance for us to get negative status effect and maze steps MAZE STEPS MAKES US IMMUNE TO STUNS PEOPLE chi increasing moves....the 2nd stealth we get isnt even used for stealth its used like a purify and it gives us a free spark...we also have a move that gives us chi and the immobilizing move gives the exact amount of chi needed to use the sleep one...when the bm is asleep we get a free amount of time to lets say...increase our chi or let one of our old skills charge..then we can stun again...then again becuase we have 2...not to mention our stuns arent just stuns they deal damage with every blow
we have have a 100% accuracy move...

fist bm build is 2str 3 dex.....pure dd assassin build is 1str 4dex...more dex..more dmg...more crit...more evasion...luck plays alot with those things but stats influence them alot...

the BMs speed gets crippled by rib strike..dont give me bull about us getting stunned after rib strike..we have plenty of time with one of our many disabling moves to throw that move in there unharmed

thats my POV now give me a BMs one

maocchi wrote: »

Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where people stated Assassins are utterly useless. Can you kindly point it out to me?

And I don't understand. Isn't the whole points of this thread to speculate who would win in a fight? So if people say that a Fist BM will win based on speculations, that is accomplishing the objective of the thread. Why are you being a butthurt? If you don't like the result, argue in a professional debating manner instead of attacking people for making speculations. Or just don't look at the thread anymore.

your ignorance astounds me... will u just stfu and read what me and all the others been saying in this thread? its no different from what the BMs have been saying. like i said COUNTLESS ****ING times already we are discussing what a sin will be able to do against a BM and vice versa.

seriously dude go back and read what we were discussing since u seem to not even understand wat we are talking about. not once in any of my posts did i say i didnt like the result. i even said lots of times a BM can beat a sin and a sin can beat a BM. it all depends on the player. so where the **** a re u getting this BS assumptions about me from?

first off i dont know at all so its not about me liking or disliking u. 2nd u came in here calling me a fanboy just because i "countered" the arguments of most of the BMs in this thread.

a Fist BM has more chance of winning in 1vs1.

this is the kind of stuff that i was arguing against and u just happen to bring it up again to prove my point. a fist BM does not have more of a chance to beat a sin just like a sin doesnt have more of a chance to beat a BM. i said awhile back that there chances of winning are about equal. 4th, ur saying im being a "butthurt" yet u are taking what i say very seriously when i was countering the arguments some of the fist BMs put out. infact u call me a fanboy just because i was disagreeing with other BMs arguments... yet your arguments about a fist BM are so far superior to my argument about a sin right? of course.

You disapproving other people's speculations = you not liking the result. Capiche?

LOL, u disapproved of nearly everything i said about sin so far. the only thing u actually agreed with me on is that a sin can beat a fist BM but u still stick with ur argument of a fist BM having more of a chance to kill a sin. is that not disapproving of my speculations? do you not like the result? oh w8, this only applies to me but not u because obviously im the only person in this thread disapproving of other ppls speculation and clearly u are not. of courseb:surrender

you had to go out of your way to label them as pointless and baseless.

pls bring up the post in where i said labeled them as pointless and baseless as u claim.




pretty much u disproved many of the things me and other ppl said about sins yet u call me a butthurt or w/e just because i disproved of what the fist BMs said? right... i really want u to bring up the posts where i was showing my "fanboyism" as u said in one of ur other posts. almost every single post i made regarding sin vs fist BM in this thread were just counter arguments against them. is counter arguments not apart of a debate anymore? an example is when someone mentioned "a BM can simply stunlock the sin" and my counter argument was that they have maze steps which makes them immune from stun and 2 skills that makes them avoid it all together. a BM also have the same skill and i never argued against that.

another argument was about the fists BMs fast atk speed. my counter argument was that a sin can reduces there atk speed by 50%. its not much but it IS something to help them out in long run. and id much rather reduced there atk speed by 50% rather then having them at full atk speed. most of the thread was counter argument after counter argument between fist BM vs sin. so again, pls tell me where u are basing ur assumptions of me from?

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

OK, so backing this thread away from the flame (I hope) I was going to ask you assassins out there about how long your buffs last. Reason being, I like to tinker with different max-interval fist builds on the other classes. Not that I would consider ANY class to be sufficient as an ONLY fist build (even bm's need some skills from other weapon paths to be really effective) but I have noticed some barbs swapping to fists near end-game for some DD output. Would an assassin be useless with a heavy armor dex based fist build, swapping to daggers for skills?

that might work....
but im going to guess that bm gets more points per str than a sin does, they also get more evasion per dex than a sin does "from what I've read"
so just wearing the heavy armor and using the fists like a bm wouldn't have anywhere near the same effect for a sin
so I dont think it would work

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

we realized it on the first page. u can tell the OP even made the thread as a joke because no one can be serious on something like this. but we all like to argue cuz we bored =p





wtf are u talking about? did u even bother to read wat i said rofl? as a matter of fact, did u even read the damn title of this thread? heres something to help u out with that tho.

http://www.hookedonphonics.com/index.aspx?ShowPopup=0&gclid=CMbAgtHg7J4CFQIhDQoduzKVMA

since it will take u time ill just simplified what u failed to read. i was comparing the DPS of a fist BM in pvp/pve with the potential DPS of a sin in pvp/PvE just like the great majority of this thread was doing anyway.

i'd like to start by saying that you're an idiot.
now that that's settled, you're a 3x sin... you have absolutely no experience yet you talk all big and strong as if you know exactly whats going on
third... you're an idiot.. just had to say it again.
so now that i used those three, extremely logical points, i have decided to side with bm's because you're simply an idiot and people like you make me hate the class they play.
in conclusion, fist bm's are better just because you're a noob.
kthxbye