Assassin vs Fist BM?

Hichel - Harshlands

Lusca - Sanctuary wrote: »

what does a skill that stops the bm from being stunned or frozen help said bm to stun lock anything?





lol people mentioned i think in a different thread that fist bms have a skill that gives them 25% more crit rate so that they would have a higher crit rate than assassins but if this is the skill, you guys forgot to mention the 50% less attack power part

Dragons bane

Mana 200
Channel Instant
Cooldown 5 minutes
Weapon Any

Requisite Cultivation Aware of Vacuity
Invented by a famous Blademaster while fighting a beastly dragon. This ferocious technique
promised him victory, and was taught to others with the name Dragon Bane. Reduces attack power by 50% but increases critical hit by 25% for 30 seconds.

Requires one Spark.
Note: Critical hits will not be displayed if landed.

the reduced attack is only the strength attack not weapon atk base, so it will hardly change a lot the damage(if im wrong please correct me)

shadowvzs87

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

umm really are we gonna do this now? *sigh* well as i said in the other thread i beleive a sin will be a better DPSer then a fist BM. the main reason i say this is because in higher lvls a sin will have a insane ammount of NATURAL crit rate. and on top of that NATURAL crit rate they will get even more crit rate from there gears/etc. and on top of that they have a skill that increases there crit rate even more. + they also have a skill that increases the dmg they do with there crits by 30%....

so ya... i think its pretty obvious that a sin can potentialy out dps a fist BM because of the huge ammount of crit rate they will have end game.

*puts flame shield on*

but assassin buff only short duration no? when he cast again he lose hits.

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sins are -.15 away from 5 hits per second so they'll never hit 5 per second stop saying their a dps class their spike oriented

Any class can use fists to 5 hit per second with demon spark if they have proper equipment. It would be interesting to see if assassin buffs work with fists, might be able to out-DPS a fist BM like fist Barbs do. I just wish the pw calculator was updated.

BM average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 10559.5 x 5 hits = 52797.5 + 24% crit rate damage factor = 65468.9 DPS

Barb average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 9995 + 526.75 wood damage (Poison Fang) = 10521.75 x 5 hits = 52608.75 + 28% crit rate damage factor = 67339.2 DPS

Edit: fixed broken link

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sins are -.15 away from 5 hits per second so they'll never hit 5 per second stop saying their a dps class thier spike oreinted

Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for pure dps goes, Sin would win since a fist BM have to split points between STR for damage and DEX for crit while a Sin of the same level would have higher crit % while more points towards damage.

But 1 v 1 goes, I think fist BM would win. Imagine fighting an Archer that doesn't have metal damage and can only melee. The reason Archers are so powerful is because their high crit AND that they can do magic damage, which hurts a lot. Even if I don't stun lock the **** out of a Sin, just using Roar and Aeolian once in a while can mess up Sin's dps. Sin's gotta hit through HA while fist BM is punching at LA. Ask a demon fist BM to Dragon Bane and spark on an Archer for you and have the Archer not kite and see how fast the Archer drops. When I was fist fighting against Minigod, lvl 100 Archer, I had to Bane then spark at the start because I wasn't charmed and he was. He sparked right after I did of course, but when his immunity ran out, he died in a couple of seconds. It was so fast I couldn't believe it. I don't think I even had my FC fists and - int bracer at that moment.

neither of u have no idea on how a sin is played do u?b:surrender i really think ALL of use needs to stop this pointless argument untill we see some pvp videos of 80+ sins vs archers and vs fist BMs and in TWs. the damn expansion hasnt even been out for a week and ppl are making such crude assumptions =/. and do u seriously think sins will never hit 5 per second...?

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

DarkHam - Harshlands wrote: »

If they were both at max level, with the best equips, and equal playing experience.

Who would win

DPS wise i would think its sin. Thing is tho, all the fist BMs ive seen were 'decked out' TO BE a fist BM so they were already equiped for it. For now what i see is that assassin has a extremely high DPS regardless any sort of -%interval gear.

Limeball - Heavens Tear

Morty - Raging Tide wrote: »

Low def ain't a priority over level 30.

This statement makes me think you've never been over level 30.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Until people find the damage ratio, refine ratio, and animation sequence ceiling for attacks per second of daggers, then any assassin saying that they will out -DPS fisters is pure uneducated opinion. Especially when their skills, eq, and general focus is on spike through skill spam.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Until people find the damage ratio, refine ratio, and animation sequence ceiling for attacks per second of daggers, then any assassin saying that they will out -DPS fisters is pure uneducated opinion. Especially when their skills, eq, and general focus is on spike through skill spam.

Have you played an assassin? if so up to what lvl?

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Any class can use fists to 5 hit per second with demon spark if they have proper equipment. It would be interesting to see if assassin buffs work with fists, might be able to out-DPS a fist BM like fist Barbs do. I just wish the pw calculator was updated.

BM average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 10559.5 x 5 hits = 52797.5 + 24% crit rate damage factor = 65468.9 DPS

Barb average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 9995 + 526.75 wood damage (Poison Fang) = 10521.75 x 5 hits = 52608.75 + 28% crit rate damage factor = 67339.2 DPS

Edit: fixed broken link

The problem is using demon spark your attack speed only goes up by 25%, which at 3.33 attacks per second ends up at around 4.1625 attacks. Blademasters have a spammable speed buff that keeps their normal attack speed always 20% higher than a barbarians (if demon). So their base will be 3.996 attacks per second without the spark, and 5 if spark is added on. That is assuming those do stack, which since im sage i have never tested this (if they did not stack 5 aps would be impossible so i will assume they do). Barbs could possibly use relentless courage but that only lasts for 8 seconds with an enormous cooldown based on genie magic regen. Any other class doing this would run into the same problem save mabye an archer because of minus interval rank gear.
___________________________________________________________________________________
Also I agree sins will special attack spam to deal their damage. This is mostly due to the fact I notice they have skills like chill from the deep, increasing attack level but decreasing attack speed...completely useless for normal attacks, but total pwnage for special attacks. They also have many skill type chi skills to replace what they would lose from using fast normal attacks, and allowing them to spam skills with silence effects or double spark skills. In addition minus interval on daggers would yield less dps than fists anyway due to the base attack speed of the weapon class being far less.

I would say however vs a pure fist bm an assasin could completely skrew over their primary source of damage...attack speed. Rib strike easily reduces attack speed by 50% and is spammable (takes attack speed from 3.33 to 1.665ish base, leading to only 1.998 buffed aps)...that would completely cripple a fist bms power + chi gain. At that point the bm would need to switch to their spike damage and skill type weapons or they would not deal enough damage, even with the heavy armor vs LA. Assassins can also dodge 50% of status ailments with their one self buff, which for a bm means half their stuns will fail. Using their silence skill in combo with that attack speed decrease would make the fight extremely hard on a bm. Also Id like to point out the fact that the best way to kill something with high evasion is to hit it as many times as possible, giving you the greatest chance of landing as many successful hits as possible... forcing a bm to skill spam would put them at an even greater disadvantage due to the fact missing against the high evasion would hurt them alot more with a more limited number of attacks.

An example of what a sin could do is... shadow escape to avoid the bm triple spark, thus leaving the bm no target to gain chi back from and wasting the bm 3 sparks. Then come back with the skill which teleports to target and stuns target, use the silence for x seconds move to prevent the bm from using stuns, use rib strike to kill their attack speed, then after the silence wears off use their immune stun skill, then its just a matter of dealing enough damage....really there is alot of combinations, but all of this leads to the fact a skilled sin vs a fist bm would be a rather even contest.

Thats about as much as i can say from only having read the various information laying around.

Quilue - Sanctuary

i don't think anyone's going to be triple sparking during that fight. the other opponent would just up and leave, unless you can hold them in place for longer than 3s or something from a single cast so you can triple spark then land hits. we're not fighting bosses that stand there going hurrdurrdurr when you triple spark here.

Bartack - Heavens Tear

I'm pretty sure this guy is right about the 5 hits per sec, and he generates a constant demon spark condition in his vid without any skills. I don't even see him using bestial rage. Also pretty sure speed buffs don't stack, but I have never used cyclone heel, so cant say for sure

Quilue - Sanctuary

oh you can pull it off with Lionheart armor and getting an Ashura bonus from TT99 evasion orns. then theres the tome and cape with the -interval, as well as lunar claws giving -interval.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

i don't think anyone's going to be triple sparking during that fight. the other opponent would just up and leave, unless you can hold them in place for longer than 3s or something from a single cast so you can triple spark then land hits. we're not fighting bosses that stand there going hurrdurrdurr when you triple spark here.

they have force steal which increases 1 spark and the lvl 59 chi gain skill which gives 2 sparks at lvl 1. and a sin has plenty of moves to hold a target in place or they can just plain use these things while in stealth mode. i know that there sleep skill last 5 secs and there immobolize last 5 secs to. so thats basicaly 10 seconds of the target staying in place if used right after the other one ends. and its spammable with 100% chance. and the lvl 59 skill stuns u. they also have a silencer.

also the other guy on page 7 made a good point. we do have a skill that reduces a fist bms atk speed by 50% for 30 seconds so that will severely damper a fist BM. it also does damn good dmg on top of that. so it dont matter if they have 5 atk per second sense a sin will just reduce it to where they atk with less hits then they do. this is in a pvp situation tho, but not in regards to a boss fight or something obviously.

the more and more i think about it, the more i realize that a sin is a class to basically severly incapacitate there target so they can do more dmg to them without getting hurt themselves.

Quilue - Sanctuary

seals and freeze won't cut it against a bm, only stuns do. i don't know how long your stuns are when maxed, but it's the bms with the 6s stuns.

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary

That combination only gives 3.33 base which with the 25% boost from spark erupt only turns into 4.16 attacks per second...I have found that the attack speed stat in the char sheet rounds and gives inaccurate values of actual attack speed. I have 1.82 attacks per second normally, id use my cyclone heel for +12% attack speed and only have 2.00 attacks per second...however when i upgraded this to sage cyclone heel which gives 15% attack speed that number jumped up to 2.22 attacks per second...both of which make no sense whatsoever. In an rb it is also 2.22 even though rb is 25% attack speed boost and visually it appears to be way faster than with just cyclone.

If attack speed boosts do not stack then the 5 aps stat on the char sheet must also be a bug. Otherwise there is no other possible explanation for how it is possible to obtain it without stacking two buffs. Also at 4.16 attacks per second chi gain should be roughly 20 per second...or just over 300 chi over 15 seconds, enough to power endless demon sparks. Now if you look at the video link above the barb appears to be attacking with just enough chi gained after 15 seconds to spark again after the first spark runs out with just a slight bit extra. This makes sense with a 4.16 attack speed, now if it was 5 that same barb should of been able to gain 375 chi. The game must glitch and report an incorrect speed.

Also yes my example was a pretty stupid **** bm for sparking just for the sake of sparking, a demon bm can open with drake bash and stun the target for 7.5 seconds, gain back chi for 3 sparks (1 second of attacks), then erupt (+3 seconds), another 2 seconds of attacks to carry out a lion roar, and keep their opponent stunlocked during a spark eruption. But I was just giving an example.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

chi gaining rly isnt a issue with sins either tho and infact its better with sins. they have so many skills to INSTANTLY gain chi that its insane. and on top of there reg hits. they dont have many skills that use chi either.

so even if a fist BM can gain 300 chi in 15 secs a sin can gain 1 spark fro force stealth, and another 2 sparks from the chi gain skill we get at lvl 59, and another 50 chi from another skill and 150 chi from rising dragin strik. (sorry some of the names slip my mind atm)

so with just those 4 skills we gained 450 chi almost instantly. and all except for 2 of them does dmg to the opponent at the same time.

Enix - Dreamweaver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar8102OO_rU

Fist BM ftw?

VVTH - Sanctuary

Drmelvin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Fist BM still have skills outside of the 4 skills in their specific weapon choice which would still benefit them like stuns so really all a good fist BM would need to do is keep the sin stun locked and smack them to death....

All you have really said is that for a sin to beat a bm they would need to spam skills but your forgetting other classes ability to keep people stun locked then your screwed

kthx. b:bye

assassins have two stuns at level 59, and silence, and sleep, oh and evade skills, should even continue? <<

VVTH - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

seals and freeze won't cut it against a bm, only stuns do. i don't know how long your stuns are when maxed, but it's the bms with the 6s stuns.

a fist bm only has one stun. Your mixing them up with axe bm.. I would know i have a lvl 90 bm b:pleased

Phoenix - Dreamweaver

I have a difficult time believing a Sin will out-DPS one of the class combos my faction uses to take out Cata Barbs in TW (and they said HA on HA action was pointless...tho thilly). Let's face it; demon sparked Fist BMs are f*cking monsters, and Sins aren't going to have anywhere near the defense or the HP of a true form Cata Barb.

However, I also know it's too early to tell. Between Stealth and the tele-port combo, an Assassin shouldn't have any trouble disabling a BM before he can get his Bodhi off. Start with a tele-stun, overlap with a Silence, and try to kill before your debuffs run out.

But just off the top of my head, Sins won't have it as easy as Archers; no magic skills. I'll just say that you should all level up your Dex genies like good little HA-killers and pray to your Bramble Rage god that the BM doesn't have Balance up when you pop off your genie skills.

Zhadou - Heavens Tear

just before i give my personal opinion, i want you all to know that i have no personal preference of each class. neither bm nor sin appeals to me so if you don't like my opinion, make sure you realize its just an opinion and don't rage.

if we're talking about pure damage output per second (dps)
then definitely by all means a sin will win. The reason is because they have the ability to be a "pure" build where 4 dex every single level increases their damage. bm's can't do that because they have to balance out str and dex of which only str adds to their damage. that same str is also what reduces their crit rates and all that. people can say that bm's get crit rates from demon skills, but sins get it from their normal skills, not to mention that we havent even heard what their sage/demon books will give. maybe more crits. who knows.

if we're talking about a 1v1 fight, then i think that a bm will win hands down.
the reason alone for that is the heavy armor. once you hit 15k pdef or higher, getting hit by phys attacks is just silly. your crits AND bleed will mean very little against the bm because incase you all don't know, bleed damage is physical damage which bm's reduce significantly. all this goes without say that bm's can also change from one weapon to another efficiently. yes a fist bm can only use one stun while equipping fists, however, its not like they cant switch back and forth quickly to use their other stuns. don't be offended sins, your job is not to kill bm's or barbs, that's just not your role in pvp. your roll is to take out the robed and maybe other LA's quickly and quietly.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Enix - Dreamweaver wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar8102OO_rU

Fist BM ftw?

thats pretty impressive. but u dont realize that a sin will have even more criticals then that at that lvl purely from there pure dex build with 4 dex per lvl at lvl 100 a pure dex sin will have over 400 dex. and this does NOT include other dex bonuses from gear and such.

so i dont see ur point with posting this vid other then to show off win a sin can do that many criticals if not more at the same lvl as the bm in that vid.

Daizengar - Sanctuary

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

thats pretty impressive. but u dont realize that a sin will have even more criticals then that at that lvl purely from there pure dex build with 4 dex per lvl at lvl 100 a pure dex sin will have over 400 dex. and this does NOT include other dex bonuses from gear and such.

so i dont see ur point with posting this vid other then to show off win a sin can do that many criticals if not more at the same lvl as the bm in that vid.

I guess you don't realize that Demon Glacial Spike reduces all defenses by 50% in addition to 100% crits.

warrenbaxter

Assassins can crit more than a fist BM... But all the Assassin attack are physical damage, so the question is how good is physical damage against Heavy Armor.. on other hand a fist Bm also inflicts physical damage but on a Light Armor Assasin .. so its a hard question to answer only time can answer this question when we see two equal lvl fist bm and sin doing PvP against each other. b:victory

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

Daizengar - Sanctuary wrote: »

I guess you don't realize that Demon Glacial Spike reduces all defenses by 50% in addition to 100% crits.

wat does that matter if i have tidal protection and focus mind to avoid that? and even if i DONT avoid it i can STILL remove it with force stealth. or did u forget what force stealth does? so ya good luck with that b:bye

Quilue - Sanctuary

VVTH - Sanctuary wrote: »

a fist bm only has one stun. Your mixing them up with axe bm.. I would know i have a lvl 90 bm b:pleased

bah does it still count as fist if one switches to axe to land a stun real quick? b:chuckle

overall this discussion is stupid. assassins have their whole tree available while OP is restricting the bm to only using one. that's like saying archers vs axe bm or something

Telarith - Sanctuary

@ Deceptistar Made an assassin and a psychic on the first day. Already started posting tricks and ideas for the assassin, and tried correcting people talking about DPS and the ATK lvl buff in the same post. Also think I was the first to post about assassin sleep skill not being broken by their bleed DoT, though that was under the psychic section. Think it's mid-20s, was gonna fruit/oracle them both, until I realized lazy people wanted to give me 400k per scarlet fruit. Thanks go to them and JJ

@ the BM who doesn't know how speed buffs work. 3.33 attack speed natural (only -interval gear counted) demon sparked WILL be 5 attacks per second. There is not fractions in the way interval is counted, it always rounds to the nearest .05 interval. 25% is also the break point for 3.33 to get a -.1 interval added on. Speed buffs do not stack, only over-write.

As for assassin, playing it after all the other 6 classes made many things clear quite quickly. The assassin has huge adds for bonus damage on their skills compared to other class' respective skills at that level. Their status causing skills are also tied in to using daggers, and the status themselves are pretty short duration for many of them. Making them more a transition or set up as opposed to ones from other classes. They don't have -interval daggers out as a mold/TT weapon, their end game weapon is Sac Strike/Adv Sac Strike adds; again, something more in line with spike which is going to be from their highly damaging skills. Their ATK lvl boost makes their normal attacks non-existant, relying on their skills. So why is it a leap to notice that it is a skill that will be relying on skill combinations to do their damage? This isn't a put down, but it is what everything in the game seems to point towards.

And people thinking of getting 5 APS with daggers? They are already -.25 behind fists, which need high end gear to just reach their 5 APS. And that is
assuming that all weapons have an animation sequence max of 5 APS, which is highly unlikely. If the ceiling is the same for all weapons, then the more -int gear comes out swords and blades will be the DPS weapons due to their higher refinement rate. And for an idea of how much every point of -interval counts, the last .1 interval drop for fists causes a 50% increase in damage and chi gain. Factor in constant spark, and it's a much larger increase for PvE.

Assassins will excel in being able to use strategies no fist BM can hope to get away with in PvP. Celestial Spark in battle? Not a problem if they tp/stun the target, and sleep them while stunned. Then spark, chi gain, use stun attack. After that, beat the hell out of the target. Or spark before even getting there, and tp in from 35 m away. Not like the target can really run, and they may not even know they are the target. Anyone trying to use the light show as a kill invitation, will be stepping into their long distance reach and be stunned and beaten on shortly thereafter.

The damage of dagger compared to fist/claw is pretty much similar. The refine rate is also likely to be the same. Because there is no way to make up the full .25 interval difference (.1 from base APS, .1 from weapon add, .05 from HA TT99), they will not be able to bridge that all important final .1 which will enable fist BMs to out-DPS an auto-attack assassin. And using their attack skills to boost their crit or other advantages will place them farther behind the BM. After all, a skill that takes 2 secs to use means the BM just did 10 sparked attacks and gained 50 chi. Whatever benefit the skill they used did, prolly isn't going to beat that even in the long run.

Now if something is introduced to change these things, then that will be different. But currently there is nothing in the game that will allow them to out-DPS a fist master BM when the assassin uses daggers. Also not sure why they would want to win, as that means they'd have aggro. But alot of their skills do have me viewing the assassin as a character I would view as a must have in the group for TT or instance without a doubt. The Blood Paint is obvious, and the attack speed debuff stacked with Myriads and BB means some really easy runs where bosses in TT do really manageable damage (Rib Strike, Myriad lock, BB b:dirty)

And my assassin is sticking to pure build with the intention of getting in, killing in a few seconds, and getting back out/moving to the next target. While some may want to spend all their sparks on one target, I view the spark gains and existence of two seperate teleports as reason to have 2 targets in mind each time I go in. The second can either be the real target after a fake out, or simply someone to kill on the way out. Chaos on the battlefield is gonna be so fun to do though

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear

honestly guys, stop using the demon BMs as an example. how can u compare a demon BM to a non demon sin? the tides dont have there demon skills yet so u cant rly compare the 2. its honestly not a fare argument right now. but as it stand a sin is more of a disabling class. they are meant to incapacitate u while doing high dmg at the same time.

i keep hearing the ppl talking about atk per second adding to the DPS of a fist bm which is true, but as far as pvp goes sins do have a skill that reduces there atk speed by 50% at max. now if it works like i think it does then -50% of 5 atk per second fist BMs can do will become 2.5 atk per second unless im missing something? and in PvE im pretty sure a sin wont have much of a problem with dps because of there constant crits. they have a steady flow of crit rate from being pure dex and a skill that increases that natural crit rate even furter. they also have a skill that increases there crit dmg by 30% called wolf emblem so they will definatly do higher criticals then a fist BM can do. and since this crit rate is pretty much constant it will add very good dps to a target unlike fists BMs whos main argument seems to be that they get a 50% CHANCE to gain 100% crit rate for only 5 seconds... id much rater have a contant and unchanging 50% crit rate in my atks rather then using a skill that grants a CHANCE to gain 100% for only a measly 5 seconds.

not to mention the heals from blood paint from those high and constant crits will be worthwhile for any squad.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear

So, I take it not everyone has figured out this thread is a pointless waste of time.

Keep it going!! It is still a nice read for me on my down time.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

honestly guys, stop using the demon BMs as an example. how can u compare a demon BM to a non demon sin? the tides dont have there demon skills yet so u cant rly compare the 2. its honestly not a fare argument right now. but as it stand a sin is more of a disabling class. they are meant to incapacitate u while doing high dmg at the same time.

i keep hearing the ppl talking about atk per second adding to the DPS of a fist bm which is true, but as far as pvp goes sins do have a skill that reduces there atk speed by 50% at max. now if it works like i think it does then -50% of 5 atk per second fist BMs can do will become 2.5 atk per second unless im missing something? and in PvE im pretty sure a sin wont have much of a problem with dps because of there constant crits. they have a steady flow of crit rate from being pure dex and a skill that increases that natural crit rate even furter. they also have a skill that increases there crit dmg by 30% called wolf emblem so they will definatly do higher criticals then a fist BM can do. and since this crit rate is pretty much constant it will add very good dps to a target unlike fists BMs whos main argument seems to be that they get a 50% CHANCE to gain 100% crit rate for only 5 seconds... id much rater have a contant and unchanging 50% crit rate in my atks rather then using a skill that grants a CHANCE to gain 100% for only a measly 5 seconds.

not to mention the heals from blood paint from those high and constant crits will be worthwhile for any squad.

there are no "pure bm's" at endgame

fist bm will be demon and most likely have all 4 paths at lvl 10

so call this "all weapon bm vs sin" if you must but your ignorace is grating thin here