Assassin vs Fist BM?

Lusca - Sanctuary wrote: »

what does a skill that stops the bm from being stunned or frozen help said bm to stun lock anything?





lol people mentioned i think in a different thread that fist bms have a skill that gives them 25% more crit rate so that they would have a higher crit rate than assassins but if this is the skill, you guys forgot to mention the 50% less attack power part

Dragons bane

Mana 200
Channel Instant
Cooldown 5 minutes
Weapon Any

Requisite Cultivation Aware of Vacuity
Invented by a famous Blademaster while fighting a beastly dragon. This ferocious technique
promised him victory, and was taught to others with the name Dragon Bane. Reduces attack power by 50% but increases critical hit by 25% for 30 seconds.

Requires one Spark.
Note: Critical hits will not be displayed if landed.

the reduced attack is only the strength attack not weapon atk base, so it will hardly change a lot the damage(if im wrong please correct me)

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sins are -.15 away from 5 hits per second so they'll never hit 5 per second stop saying their a dps class their spike oriented

Any class can use fists to 5 hit per second with demon spark if they have proper equipment. It would be interesting to see if assassin buffs work with fists, might be able to out-DPS a fist BM like fist Barbs do. I just wish the pw calculator was updated.

BM average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 10559.5 x 5 hits = 52797.5 + 24% crit rate damage factor = 65468.9 DPS

Barb average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 9995 + 526.75 wood damage (Poison Fang) = 10521.75 x 5 hits = 52608.75 + 28% crit rate damage factor = 67339.2 DPS

Edit: fixed broken link

DarkHam - Harshlands wrote: »

If they were both at max level, with the best equips, and equal playing experience.

Who would win

DPS wise i would think its sin. Thing is tho, all the fist BMs ive seen were 'decked out' TO BE a fist BM so they were already equiped for it. For now what i see is that assassin has a extremely high DPS regardless any sort of -%interval gear.

Until people find the damage ratio, refine ratio, and animation sequence ceiling for attacks per second of daggers, then any assassin saying that they will out -DPS fisters is pure uneducated opinion. Especially when their skills, eq, and general focus is on spike through skill spam.

Bartack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Any class can use fists to 5 hit per second with demon spark if they have proper equipment. It would be interesting to see if assassin buffs work with fists, might be able to out-DPS a fist BM like fist Barbs do. I just wish the pw calculator was updated.

BM average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 10559.5 x 5 hits = 52797.5 + 24% crit rate damage factor = 65468.9 DPS

Barb average base damage per hit (Demon Sparked) = 9995 + 526.75 wood damage (Poison Fang) = 10521.75 x 5 hits = 52608.75 + 28% crit rate damage factor = 67339.2 DPS

Edit: fixed broken link

The problem is using demon spark your attack speed only goes up by 25%, which at 3.33 attacks per second ends up at around 4.1625 attacks. Blademasters have a spammable speed buff that keeps their normal attack speed always 20% higher than a barbarians (if demon). So their base will be 3.996 attacks per second without the spark, and 5 if spark is added on. That is assuming those do stack, which since im sage i have never tested this (if they did not stack 5 aps would be impossible so i will assume they do). Barbs could possibly use relentless courage but that only lasts for 8 seconds with an enormous cooldown based on genie magic regen. Any other class doing this would run into the same problem save mabye an archer because of minus interval rank gear.
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Also I agree sins will special attack spam to deal their damage. This is mostly due to the fact I notice they have skills like chill from the deep, increasing attack level but decreasing attack speed...completely useless for normal attacks, but total pwnage for special attacks. They also have many skill type chi skills to replace what they would lose from using fast normal attacks, and allowing them to spam skills with silence effects or double spark skills. In addition minus interval on daggers would yield less dps than fists anyway due to the base attack speed of the weapon class being far less.

I would say however vs a pure fist bm an assasin could completely skrew over their primary source of damage...attack speed. Rib strike easily reduces attack speed by 50% and is spammable (takes attack speed from 3.33 to 1.665ish base, leading to only 1.998 buffed aps)...that would completely cripple a fist bms power + chi gain. At that point the bm would need to switch to their spike damage and skill type weapons or they would not deal enough damage, even with the heavy armor vs LA. Assassins can also dodge 50% of status ailments with their one self buff, which for a bm means half their stuns will fail. Using their silence skill in combo with that attack speed decrease would make the fight extremely hard on a bm. Also Id like to point out the fact that the best way to kill something with high evasion is to hit it as many times as possible, giving you the greatest chance of landing as many successful hits as possible... forcing a bm to skill spam would put them at an even greater disadvantage due to the fact missing against the high evasion would hurt them alot more with a more limited number of attacks.

An example of what a sin could do is... shadow escape to avoid the bm triple spark, thus leaving the bm no target to gain chi back from and wasting the bm 3 sparks. Then come back with the skill which teleports to target and stuns target, use the silence for x seconds move to prevent the bm from using stuns, use rib strike to kill their attack speed, then after the silence wears off use their immune stun skill, then its just a matter of dealing enough damage....really there is alot of combinations, but all of this leads to the fact a skilled sin vs a fist bm would be a rather even contest.

Thats about as much as i can say from only having read the various information laying around.

I'm pretty sure this guy is right about the 5 hits per sec, and he generates a constant demon spark condition in his vid without any skills. I don't even see him using bestial rage. Also pretty sure speed buffs don't stack, but I have never used cyclone heel, so cant say for sure

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

i don't think anyone's going to be triple sparking during that fight. the other opponent would just up and leave, unless you can hold them in place for longer than 3s or something from a single cast so you can triple spark then land hits. we're not fighting bosses that stand there going hurrdurrdurr when you triple spark here.

they have force steal which increases 1 spark and the lvl 59 chi gain skill which gives 2 sparks at lvl 1. and a sin has plenty of moves to hold a target in place or they can just plain use these things while in stealth mode. i know that there sleep skill last 5 secs and there immobolize last 5 secs to. so thats basicaly 10 seconds of the target staying in place if used right after the other one ends. and its spammable with 100% chance. and the lvl 59 skill stuns u. they also have a silencer.

also the other guy on page 7 made a good point. we do have a skill that reduces a fist bms atk speed by 50% for 30 seconds so that will severely damper a fist BM. it also does damn good dmg on top of that. so it dont matter if they have 5 atk per second sense a sin will just reduce it to where they atk with less hits then they do. this is in a pvp situation tho, but not in regards to a boss fight or something obviously.

the more and more i think about it, the more i realize that a sin is a class to basically severly incapacitate there target so they can do more dmg to them without getting hurt themselves.

That combination only gives 3.33 base which with the 25% boost from spark erupt only turns into 4.16 attacks per second...I have found that the attack speed stat in the char sheet rounds and gives inaccurate values of actual attack speed. I have 1.82 attacks per second normally, id use my cyclone heel for +12% attack speed and only have 2.00 attacks per second...however when i upgraded this to sage cyclone heel which gives 15% attack speed that number jumped up to 2.22 attacks per second...both of which make no sense whatsoever. In an rb it is also 2.22 even though rb is 25% attack speed boost and visually it appears to be way faster than with just cyclone.

If attack speed boosts do not stack then the 5 aps stat on the char sheet must also be a bug. Otherwise there is no other possible explanation for how it is possible to obtain it without stacking two buffs. Also at 4.16 attacks per second chi gain should be roughly 20 per second...or just over 300 chi over 15 seconds, enough to power endless demon sparks. Now if you look at the video link above the barb appears to be attacking with just enough chi gained after 15 seconds to spark again after the first spark runs out with just a slight bit extra. This makes sense with a 4.16 attack speed, now if it was 5 that same barb should of been able to gain 375 chi. The game must glitch and report an incorrect speed.

Also yes my example was a pretty stupid **** bm for sparking just for the sake of sparking, a demon bm can open with drake bash and stun the target for 7.5 seconds, gain back chi for 3 sparks (1 second of attacks), then erupt (+3 seconds), another 2 seconds of attacks to carry out a lion roar, and keep their opponent stunlocked during a spark eruption. But I was just giving an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar8102OO_rU

Fist BM ftw?

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

seals and freeze won't cut it against a bm, only stuns do. i don't know how long your stuns are when maxed, but it's the bms with the 6s stuns.

a fist bm only has one stun. Your mixing them up with axe bm.. I would know i have a lvl 90 bm b:pleased

just before i give my personal opinion, i want you all to know that i have no personal preference of each class. neither bm nor sin appeals to me so if you don't like my opinion, make sure you realize its just an opinion and don't rage.

if we're talking about pure damage output per second (dps)
then definitely by all means a sin will win. The reason is because they have the ability to be a "pure" build where 4 dex every single level increases their damage. bm's can't do that because they have to balance out str and dex of which only str adds to their damage. that same str is also what reduces their crit rates and all that. people can say that bm's get crit rates from demon skills, but sins get it from their normal skills, not to mention that we havent even heard what their sage/demon books will give. maybe more crits. who knows.

if we're talking about a 1v1 fight, then i think that a bm will win hands down.
the reason alone for that is the heavy armor. once you hit 15k pdef or higher, getting hit by phys attacks is just silly. your crits AND bleed will mean very little against the bm because incase you all don't know, bleed damage is physical damage which bm's reduce significantly. all this goes without say that bm's can also change from one weapon to another efficiently. yes a fist bm can only use one stun while equipping fists, however, its not like they cant switch back and forth quickly to use their other stuns. don't be offended sins, your job is not to kill bm's or barbs, that's just not your role in pvp. your roll is to take out the robed and maybe other LA's quickly and quietly.

Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

thats pretty impressive. but u dont realize that a sin will have even more criticals then that at that lvl purely from there pure dex build with 4 dex per lvl at lvl 100 a pure dex sin will have over 400 dex. and this does NOT include other dex bonuses from gear and such.

so i dont see ur point with posting this vid other then to show off win a sin can do that many criticals if not more at the same lvl as the bm in that vid.

I guess you don't realize that Demon Glacial Spike reduces all defenses by 50% in addition to 100% crits.

Daizengar - Sanctuary wrote: »

I guess you don't realize that Demon Glacial Spike reduces all defenses by 50% in addition to 100% crits.

wat does that matter if i have tidal protection and focus mind to avoid that? and even if i DONT avoid it i can STILL remove it with force stealth. or did u forget what force stealth does? so ya good luck with that b:bye

@ Deceptistar Made an assassin and a psychic on the first day. Already started posting tricks and ideas for the assassin, and tried correcting people talking about DPS and the ATK lvl buff in the same post. Also think I was the first to post about assassin sleep skill not being broken by their bleed DoT, though that was under the psychic section. Think it's mid-20s, was gonna fruit/oracle them both, until I realized lazy people wanted to give me 400k per scarlet fruit. Thanks go to them and JJ

@ the BM who doesn't know how speed buffs work. 3.33 attack speed natural (only -interval gear counted) demon sparked WILL be 5 attacks per second. There is not fractions in the way interval is counted, it always rounds to the nearest .05 interval. 25% is also the break point for 3.33 to get a -.1 interval added on. Speed buffs do not stack, only over-write.

As for assassin, playing it after all the other 6 classes made many things clear quite quickly. The assassin has huge adds for bonus damage on their skills compared to other class' respective skills at that level. Their status causing skills are also tied in to using daggers, and the status themselves are pretty short duration for many of them. Making them more a transition or set up as opposed to ones from other classes. They don't have -interval daggers out as a mold/TT weapon, their end game weapon is Sac Strike/Adv Sac Strike adds; again, something more in line with spike which is going to be from their highly damaging skills. Their ATK lvl boost makes their normal attacks non-existant, relying on their skills. So why is it a leap to notice that it is a skill that will be relying on skill combinations to do their damage? This isn't a put down, but it is what everything in the game seems to point towards.

And people thinking of getting 5 APS with daggers? They are already -.25 behind fists, which need high end gear to just reach their 5 APS. And that is
assuming that all weapons have an animation sequence max of 5 APS, which is highly unlikely. If the ceiling is the same for all weapons, then the more -int gear comes out swords and blades will be the DPS weapons due to their higher refinement rate. And for an idea of how much every point of -interval counts, the last .1 interval drop for fists causes a 50% increase in damage and chi gain. Factor in constant spark, and it's a much larger increase for PvE.

Assassins will excel in being able to use strategies no fist BM can hope to get away with in PvP. Celestial Spark in battle? Not a problem if they tp/stun the target, and sleep them while stunned. Then spark, chi gain, use stun attack. After that, beat the hell out of the target. Or spark before even getting there, and tp in from 35 m away. Not like the target can really run, and they may not even know they are the target. Anyone trying to use the light show as a kill invitation, will be stepping into their long distance reach and be stunned and beaten on shortly thereafter.

The damage of dagger compared to fist/claw is pretty much similar. The refine rate is also likely to be the same. Because there is no way to make up the full .25 interval difference (.1 from base APS, .1 from weapon add, .05 from HA TT99), they will not be able to bridge that all important final .1 which will enable fist BMs to out-DPS an auto-attack assassin. And using their attack skills to boost their crit or other advantages will place them farther behind the BM. After all, a skill that takes 2 secs to use means the BM just did 10 sparked attacks and gained 50 chi. Whatever benefit the skill they used did, prolly isn't going to beat that even in the long run.

Now if something is introduced to change these things, then that will be different. But currently there is nothing in the game that will allow them to out-DPS a fist master BM when the assassin uses daggers. Also not sure why they would want to win, as that means they'd have aggro. But alot of their skills do have me viewing the assassin as a character I would view as a must have in the group for TT or instance without a doubt. The Blood Paint is obvious, and the attack speed debuff stacked with Myriads and BB means some really easy runs where bosses in TT do really manageable damage (Rib Strike, Myriad lock, BB b:dirty)

And my assassin is sticking to pure build with the intention of getting in, killing in a few seconds, and getting back out/moving to the next target. While some may want to spend all their sparks on one target, I view the spark gains and existence of two seperate teleports as reason to have 2 targets in mind each time I go in. The second can either be the real target after a fake out, or simply someone to kill on the way out. Chaos on the battlefield is gonna be so fun to do though

So, I take it not everyone has figured out this thread is a pointless waste of time.

Keep it going!! It is still a nice read for me on my down time.