Reduce Primal Mighty Swing mass pvp efficiency

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nope, no other class can spam an uncounterable CC, any other class spammable CC can be countered\cleansed\purified , allowing both "parts" a fair trade (CC from one side therefore CD or chi cost for most likely genie or antistun CD on the other side)

(acknowledged that other classes have spammable CCs, but i am not sure if any other class can spam the very same CC in the same solid way Mighty Swing can be spammed)

again i am not saying that the proc itself is broken,

i keep saying for the 100th time that the cooldown and the chi cost should be way and way higher, cause i dont know if you have ever faced 2 barbs in a pk session, but if those 2 barbs target you, you wont be able to do anything until eventually those 2 barbs land purge and kill you or you simply receive AA and you are dead w\o the option of a comeback,
Imho, cooldown/chi cost is ok for a class with few or amost no CCs. But indeed, barbs aren't meant to be kings of CCing because their main role is to tank in first place.

now name me, another mmorpg where CCs dont have a counter, or where the tank can provide the best support available in game...

non-tanky support classes should have mighty swing, a solid CC skill with a proc like that i would consider it legit just on venomancers cause bms are offtanks anyways...

assassins are another kettle of fish, their ccs are annoyance in 1on1 but in mass pvp they will get purified cleansed etch... the biggest threat of a sin in mass pvp its the ridicolous amount of DPS they can dish out...

now if you dont want the game to be reduced to Mighty Swing + Elimination, devs need to nerf both of those skills

By the other hand, I would be unable to name a better solution to give barbs a good PvP Tankness (other than Raging Slap), A Mighty swing spamming barb is sure to become a focus, at least for the person being CCd by that barb. Anyone who got targeted by a human form mighty swinging barb would probably focus the barb and silence/stun him in order to get out of it.

A well timed Force of will when freeze is about to end is sure to interrupt what you call "Perma Lock" from mighty swing.

Once again, I don't think any Freeze/Stun effects should bypass "Imune to imobilization effects" buff, because it kills the purpose of antistun buffs in the first place. Makes antistun description more accurate if stating "Almost imune to imobilization effects."

Anything in a MMORPG that doesn't have a counter is broken, I agree something needed to counter purify spell, but bypassing vacuity powders/archer antistun and other anti-stun/imob effects is just messed up. Maybe these 'ignorant' freeze effects should have a chance to actually ignore antistun and become unpurifyable, like, if freeze lands has 20% chance to ignore antistun effects (Then it would counter purify spell in some way but wouldn't be 100% uncounterable)

Also, 3s immobilization from Elimination is negligible I wouldn't bother if they chose to take it away, its messed up to have a hard hitting and antistun ignoring CC skill anyways, maybe make sage/demon tackling slash have 20% chance to ignore purify spell antistun effect instead, idk.

Colum - Raging Tide

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

yand barb being the tank class is not supposed to deal damage on pair with other classes, cause your role is not the Damage Dealer, is not the support, is the go.ddamn Tank role... eventho you have sh.it like Armageddon and Berserker's Wrath

Eh, here you are forgetting barb builds.

In order to deal "damage on pair with other classes" barb has to be strenght build, which means less vitality, thus less survivalibity, thus less tankiness.

A vit build full JOSD barb is definitely not hitting as hard as a str barb would, let alone deity str barb (though I wouldnt consider deity as an option, that's just too squishy). Also, most barbs with dangerous damage are demons due to their ability to land zerk crits lot easier than a sage would thanks t demon BO. Demons are less tanky than sages.

//EDIT and what comes to Arma from vit builds... that is easy to predict, easy to avoid, costs two sparks and ticks the barb's charm...

Azura - Lost City

Paralize is broken in bms too. Even though it costs some chi to use, they can make that chi really fast because there are other new primal skills from the Spear tree that allows them to gain chi really fast. Even if I keep draining their chi, they still manage to use the skill, and while I'm paralized they spam that skill (I think it's far strike). It seems almost useless to drain their chi.

Paralize it's just stupid, it shouldn't exist. There should be a way to counter it like any other stun.

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

again i repeat if PWI will mantain this line about current class skill balance, most of the player base, to be able to compete mass-pvp wise (that is all what the game is about at the moment)

No, most will simply quit.

Veritanis - Dreamweaver

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Paralize is broken in bms too. Even though it costs some chi to use, they can make that chi really fast because there are other new primal skills from the Spear tree that allows them to gain chi really fast. Even if I keep draining their chi, they still manage to use the skill, and while I'm paralized they spam that skill (I think it's far strike). It seems almost useless to drain their chi.

Paralize it's just stupid, it shouldn't exist. There should be a way to counter it like any other stun.



No, most will simply quit.

If you look closely for a barb its okay for its a class with few CC.

But for a BM which already has like 1000 stuns and 1000 imobilizations, its very messed up.

It is there to counter purify spell which been OP in the first place, also with new Primal Passives and skills venos have been valued, purge became a stronger asset and primal demon ironwood/myriad rainbows became the most effective defense debuffs in the game, along with bm's glacial spike.

It is starting to get more balanced towards 1v1 than mass pvp if you look closely, and seekers are way more overpowered than barbs with zerking magical crits and high defenses.

As for "Double barbs spamming Mighty swing", a pair of sins or bms would be just as annoying, a pair of archers would be dangerous for a caster, a pair of mystics/clerics would be annoying as hell too, so I don't think thats a valid way to compare stuff. A pair of venos... I don't even wanna think about that.

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

you said that mighty swing proc spam is dangerous just for arcanes and squishies (LAs i suppose, such archers cause i wouldnt include sins in the squishy list)

man you just listed 6/10 of the available classes in this game, 7/10 if we should consider assassins

that means 60% of the players will get completely disrupted\removed from the fight, in mass pvp by just one single skill...


you cant call that balanced...


I am not going to say it's balanced as I can make a QQ thread about every single class having something that is 'unbalanced' per say. But that would be a waste of time for me so I will work with what is given. I will AGAIN point out that this game isn't about 'balance' it's still about making money, and clearly PW has found a way to make money despite players crying about 'unbalanced' skills or classes.

As I stated before, yes the new MS is mainly dangerous as far as I am concerned to squishies and arcanes and I stand by that statement. But here is the flip side to that, it may be dangerous to them but nothing is stopping them from anticpating it in a mass PvP setting or at least coordinating with their squad to CC the barb or barbs in question.

Also don't forget, so far all these scenarios spoken about in this thread appear to involve Team A(0 barbs) VS Team B which contains 1-2 more barbs. Team A can also consist of barbs allowing them to act as support against the opposing barbs. This all assuming the teams are evenly matched gear AND class wise. Meaning both sides at least have 1 cleric and a proper DD.


and barb being the tank class is not supposed to deal damage on pair with other classes, cause your role is not the Damage Dealer, is not the support, is the ******n Tank role... eventho you have **** like Armageddon and Berserker's Wrath

the barb role in mass pvp is to taunt with raging slap, poke, harass and yes i agree its role includes to disrupt \ CC also, but not with the current overpowered consistency,

You need to get your mind outside of what YOU think is right, because ultimately that's probably why you're having such a hard time dealing with this MS issue.This game is designed by the devs they way THEY want it to be. So you either play and learn to deal with how the classes and PvP mechanics were designed or just stop playing.

Anyway, Vit build barbs having laughable damage in PvP but are extremely tanky, so that being said they wouldn't be able to deal damage on par with other classes CONSISTENTLY. The only way a barb really becomes a power house in PvP damage wise is if they are a str build(Which I feel is the best build for PvP end game wise with full+12 gear), but they sacrifice the defense and HP for it. So I think thats a fair trade off.

Again a STR build can still tank, but that is just how it is, their skills are centered around tanking in the first place. But that doesn't really matter because thats like me saying how come a PURE MAG cleric can do so much damage+Pro CC ability AND STILL HEAL!?! Well duh they are clerics lol.

So again ultimately saying you 'cause your role is not the Damage Dealer', is wrong because that is based on the build of the barb and ultimately game mechanics.

the proc is legit, such as a major chi or cd cost is legit aswell

again i repeat if PWI will mantain this line about current class skill balance, most of the player base, to be able to compete mass-pvp wise (that is all what the game is about at the moment)

will reroll barb either assassin, cause it takes 2 barbs and 1 sin in the same squad to kill any-team @ endgame gears

Whats the problem if they choose to reroll? PW doesn't care as long as they are paying in the end. People said the same thing about sins and many players rerolled sins but the fact remains they ARE STILL PLAYING. That is what is primarily important business wise.

(after i saw Rinc videos where he soloes entire r9 cata squads, i would say that it could take just a good sin to do that job, but the mighty swing spam combined with the sin dps burst will just make you win the team-fight scenario on a 100% chance)

p.s.: i forgot to reply @ barbs not being the best support class in game...

yes they are the best support class in game, they can CC, they can debuff, they can purge, taunt with raging slap and they can land a solid CC loop comparable only to SoG but w\o providing the damage reduction

while

having the best survivability in game

they are man...

Barbs naturally do have the best survivability in the game. That is how they were designed. Yes they have SOME CC's, yes they have the ability to purge and debuff(Like almost every class lol...), but I still fully disagree they are the best support PvP wise. The 'best support' for me comes strictly down to the PvP situation and who I am fighting against.

Lets see if I can break this down based on your points listed above.

@Veritanis

Also that's also my thoughts, I would be much more concerned about 2 archers ganking me VS 2 barbs any day.

Suprprutty - Lost City

But for a BM which already has like 1000 stuns and 1000 imobilizations, its very messed up.

You can counter those with anti stuns. As far as I know, all (or most) of BMs immobilize skills cost chi and/or have a reasonable cooldown or both. Paralyze cannot be countered with anti-stun but it still costs 1 spark and has a cooldown. Also their stun skills can miss? I don't know about their paralyze.

In mass PvP, BMs have to be on the front lines and Rotp and use dragons and all that stuff and there goes their chi..and are pretty exposed to begin with, IG runs out, they gotta run or do something, use a genie, stuff. In 1v1 they were already good but that's not the point.

Mighty Swing has a short cooldown, doesn't cost chi, gives chi, it's spammable, cannot be purified and cannot be countered with anti-stun. Cannot miss as far as I know? Totally reasonable. /sarcasm

It is there to counter purify spell which been OP in the first place

They should have nerfed purify proc but they aren't ballsy enough to nerf stuff, instead they try to counter things with more OP things that only cause more problems. What about the classes that don't have purify proc. GG?

also with new Primal Passives and skills venos have been valued, purge became a stronger asset

You cannot purge the passives or the defences/hp/attack from the Nuema and War Avatars as far as I know. Not saying purge is useless but it's definitely not "more valued" than before. The other skills were nothing special and our Paralyze is not even worth using. Only good thing was Stunning Blow never missing.

and primal demon ironwood/myriad rainbows became the most effective defense debuffs in the game, along with bm's glacial spike.

That's not true actually.
Demon Ironwood is and will become the best buff yes, but it's proc rate is only 20% (the skill also costs chi btw). That is balance.

Primal Ironwood "aka Redstone" is pretty useless. First you can't tell which debuff you proc'd the 40% or the 180%? Secondly, 180% is not even comparable to Demon Ironwood's debuff. This skill is good for PvE venos that farm and stuff.

Myriad, Sage/Primal Ironwood and Primal Demon Redstone are actually weaker because of the passives. All the debuffs are becoming weaker, especially once lvl10 or higher passives will be available plus war avatars. We'll have to rely more and more on amps rather than debuffs.

As for "Double barbs spamming Mighty swing", a pair of sins or bms would be just as annoying, a pair of archers would be dangerous for a caster, a pair of mystics/clerics would be annoying as hell too, so I don't think thats a valid way to compare stuff. A pair of venos... I don't even wanna think about that.

You missed the part of "two undergeared barbs can just spam this on you and get away with it" Hot mentioned in some older post. Two undergear anything else can't cause you as much trouble. In the barb scenario you can't do much or..anything. Well, venos can get away with being undergeared and just purging things but even then you can still react to that.

And do not translate that to "so undergeared people shouldn't have a chance?" <- this is completely missing the point.

Sins are a whole other topic imo and shouldn't be brought here.

Veritanis - Dreamweaver

A pair of 'undergeared' barbarians can be easily taken down by a self-titled "Wizard-god" like XxHotxX.
You don't need much more than Absolute Domain + Ironguard to take both (and some 3 or 4 more) down.

Bms do have a freeze that ignores antistun, now if you're saying BMs get "Open when in frontline yadda yadda", a barb also gets open when he turns to human form to spam mighty swing.

A barb can't run at 10ms while human formed, as said before here: 2 barbs spamming mighty swing in 1 person is strategically using 2 persons of a team to troll/annoy 1 person of the other team, that leaves the team with 2 barbs with 1 person less in the rest of the fight.

Also about the "Wizard-god" ranting on "Having to focus a barb", that's what barbs are meant for in the first place.

Edit: Also, the barb is open to 3rd party (or even victim) attacks/CC while spamming mighty swing in 1 person so "Reduce MASS pvp efficiency of mighty swing" is slightly stupid.

Also a barb does only have 2 attacks to reach far enough while victim of imobilization, means a Silent Seal/Tackling slash is ****ing annoying when you're a barb. (You just sit in your *** taking damage from 4 or 5 people until the buff is gone, or you just die there if you don't use apos/genie)

XXHotXx - Morai

Kiymori - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lets see if I can break this down based on your points listed above.

@Veritanis

Also that's also my thoughts, I would be much more concerned about 2 archers ganking me VS 2 barbs any day.

Classes have lot of perks, but the overpowered things i see in game are:

elimination+sage tidal

primal mighty swing cooldown

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depends on the build? no it doesnt, no other class can invoke solid shield cornered beast, no other class has the HP and the res of a barbarian,

if you compare a str deity DD barb to any other full DD deity class, the barb will still have more survivability than said class thanks to his HP res and barb skills

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putting players at the reroll or quit choice due to skill imbalance and ***** up gameplay, wont be a win win decision business-wise, cause the gap between lvl 0 and endgame is way more spread than it was few years back, players will really consider a quit most likely than a reroll

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some ccs? you cant say its just some if they can loop you into a paralyze status, all the classes can purge debuff cc etch, no other class can do it with the safety given by the barbarian defensive skills, any other class will have no way to sustain a melee paralyze stunlock, barbs can just loop invoke cornered solid AD apo invoke etch while landing paralyzes

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@ veritanis, there is no wizard-god at current state of the game and i never claimed to be one,
i am a non-factor like any other wizard is in mass pvp atm

you are suggesting to deplete genie+apo to get out a 5 sec cd stun, in the time of a ad+ig you cant kill an endgame barb, IG is 12 seconds, invoke is 20 seconds just by itself

another suggestion you giving is redirect the AA of the team to the barb cause of his stun,

you should already know that redirecting the focus fire to the tank, will expose your team to the enemy focus fire, and while everyone in your squad is wasting resources trying to take down the hardest to kill class, said squad will get *****

-

pwi game is an (mmo)RPG game, Role-Playing Game

the barb plays the tank role, they are not DD , they are not support, they are the TANKs

the new mighty swing proc spammability ABSOLUTELY dont suit or fit the tank or offtank role

its a skill that suits a support class such venomancer or cleric, classes that actually dont have the massive sustain a Tank class has and they are classes that wont be able to land that uncounterable CC in such a solid way

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

Classes have lot of perks, but the overpowered things i see in game are:

elimination+sage tidal

I personally believe that both these skills are unbalanced as of now and COULD be changed IF the assassin class was made differently. But due to how assassins were designed and the general OPness of other classes especially nowadays it seems this how Devs countered it, instead of just spending money and time redesigning the classes(which I can't blame them it's a cheaper alternative).

primal mighty swing cooldown

And again, as I suggested before. The Cooldown on the skill is just fine. What they could have done is have made that the skill is 100% chance to stun or freeze but can still be purified. As far as I am concerned the introduction of a paralyze was 'NOT necessary' but they did it anyway.

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depends on the build? no it doesnt, no other class can invoke solid shield cornered beast, no other class has the HP and the res of a barbarian,

if you compare a str deity DD barb to any other full DD deity class, the barb will still have more survivability than said class thanks to his HP res and barb skills

*sigh* I don't think I am getting through am I Lol? I just said already that a Vit barb is tankier overall than a STR barb mainly due to the fact they have a higher HP pool which grant them a higher survivability. But they suffer the Loss of damage.And also to add, if you want to be even tankier make it a sage vit barb b:laugh.

A demon STR built barb has MUCH higher damage, and can easily wreck a squishy class if they get purged and caught unable to counter. But again they suffer the lack of HP and therefore that's the trade off.

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putting players at the reroll or quit choice due to skill imbalance and ***** up gameplay, wont be a win win decision business-wise, cause the gap between lvl 0 and endgame is way more spread than it was few years back, players will really consider a quit most likely than a reroll

See players MAY quit, but players will come back or new ones will join. And I can base that on one simple fact. Look at the amount of players that still play this game even though s3 r9 compared to all other gears is completely unbalanced. They still spend money and go to NW/TW/Open PvP and get wrecked. Some may complain or 'quit' but they still for whatever reason stay. And I honestly believed it's because PW did an excellent job of making this game in such a way that the person may feel a high level of attachment to their character.

The amount of personal customization of your character visually easily beats out many other leading newer MMO's and think it's one of PW's strongest points.
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some ccs? you cant say its just some if they can loop you into a paralyze status, all the classes can purge debuff cc etch, no other class can do it with the safety given by the barbarian defensive skills, any other class will have no way to sustain a melee paralyze stunlock, barbs can just loop invoke cornered solid AD apo invoke etch while landing paralyzes

I made the statement 'some CC's' in a general sense. If you want me to look at it from a rational point of view it really is only 'some CC'. Again it's only truly demon barbs that get a chance at proper CC ability not Sage's(besides Alacrity). Sage gets a chance low chance to freeze(correct me if I am wrong) on Frighten only. Demon gets a low chance to stun on frighten, low chance to freeze on surf impact. And now with new MS a 50% Freeze or Paralyze. Remeber at the end of the day the paralyze or freeze are STILL 50% chance on either one. And both of Ancestral Rage if they learn t it of course, and untamed wrath which is just a 2 second freeze with a 1 minute cooldown.

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@ veritanis, there is no wizard-god at current state of the game and i never claimed to be one,
i am a non-factor like any other wizard is in mass pvp atm

you are suggesting to deplete genie+apo to get out a 5 sec cd stun, in the time of a ad+ig you cant kill an endgame barb, IG is 12 seconds, invoke is 20 seconds just by itself

another suggestion you giving is redirect the AA of the team to the barb cause of his stun,

you should already know that redirecting the focus fire to the tank, will expose your team to the enemy focus fire, and while everyone in your squad is wasting resources trying to take down the hardest to kill class, said squad will get *****

-

pwi game is an (mmo)RPG game, Role-Playing Game

the barb plays the tank role, they are not DD , they are not support, they are the TANKs

the new mighty swing proc spammability ABSOLUTELY dont suit or fit the tank or offtank role

its a skill that suits a support class such venomancer or cleric, classes that actually dont have the massive sustain a Tank class has and they are classes that wont be able to land that uncounterable CC in such a solid way

Hopefully my post above clarifies some things.

heerohex#3018

@ XXHotXx - Morai can you please put a vote on this thread please.

Yes
Undecided
No

The thread has been very active but im unable to make a decision on if to enter this into the logs with out a clear number of support. Ill continue to keep my eye on this thread and see where it ends.

Thanks,

XXHotXx - Morai

heero200 wrote: »

@ XXHotXx - Morai can you please put a vote on this thread please.

Yes
Undecided
No

The thread has been very active but im unable to make a decision on if to enter this into the logs with out a clear number of support. Ill continue to keep my eye on this thread and see where it ends.

Thanks,

will do,
you welcome

Kiymori - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hopefully my post above clarifies some things.

i agree on the fact that a nerf on that way (make the proc purifiable) would be good,

but that as long as you can't still prevent the paralyze, cause at that point it would just make the proc useless

Joe - Morai

you are all missing the point here. Barbs have always been the strongest class in this game ever since genies came out. period. (all on end-game perspectives...it can differ on lower end gear...but oh well)

And btw. Wizard are and have always been the 2nd strongest class. And while I agree that Barbs and sins got pushed the most with the primal skills...ya the wizards do come right after. The amount of possible dmg a wizard can dish out is still unparalleled in this game, new passives or not.

Survivability is the one thing. but tje only two classes that always had the possibility to kill any other class always have been wizards and barbs and that alone makes them the most OP.

If Barbs are 100% then wizards are 93% clerics and sins 85% and so on.

Leave the Barbs Mighty Swing as it is. this skill is not broken and a usual full vit barb does not dish out a huge amount of dmg (cept for arma which is easily blockable and depends on zerk crits pretty much).

To be honest. all casters should be grateful that they got purify proc. Without that they would just get stun locked and face rolled again like they used to pre r9r2.

And judging from my point of view...the paralyze misses more then it hits for me and if it was for me xD I would have made paralyze completely unblockable, even for tidal, faith and that kinda stuff then and only then it could be considered way too OP.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

you are all missing the point here. Barbs have always been the strongest class in this game ever since genies came out. period. (all on end-game perspectives...it can differ on lower end gear...but oh well)

And btw. Wizard are and have always been the 2nd strongest class. And while I agree that Barbs and sins got pushed the most with the primal skills...ya the wizards do come right after. The amount of possible dmg a wizard can dish out is still unparalleled in this game, new passives or not.

Survivability is the one thing. but tje only two classes that always had the possibility to kill any other class always have been wizards and barbs and that alone makes them the most OP.

If Barbs are 100% then wizards are 93% clerics and sins 85% and so on.

Leave the Barbs Mighty Swing as it is. this skill is not broken and a usual full vit barb does not dish out a huge amount of dmg (cept for arma which is easily blockable and depends on zerk crits pretty much).

To be honest. all casters should be grateful that they got purify proc. Without that they would just get stun locked and face rolled again like they used to pre r9r2.

And judging from my point of view...the paralyze misses more then it hits for me and if it was for me xD I would have made paralyze completely unblockable, even for tidal, faith and that kinda stuff then and only then it could be considered way too OP.

joe you missed the point that had been debated for 13 pages, the whole argument is not if the proc is legit or not and which class is best and which is not

the argument is paralyze spammability mass-pvp wise, a single paralyze proc opens a fkload of opportunities for AA or else, a paralyze loop makes you 100% dead w.e. the class you are

as i said previously the proc is legit, and it is negligible in 1on1, it is an hard counter to purify, eventho purify already had other counters and its ok

the fact that in mass pvp, if you get into a paralyze chain, you wont be able to do anything to counter it and you ll be dead..

moreover this proc makes assassin class even more powerful,
since the only way to resist the loop is to have sage tidal or deplete genie\apo (that by the way works only once, and the skill has 5 seconds cooldown)

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

joe you missed the point that had been debated for 13 pages, the whole argument is not if the proc is legit or not and which class is best and which is not

the argument is paralyze spammability mass-pvp wise, a single paralyze proc opens a fkload of opportunities for AA or else, a paralyze loop makes you 100% dead w.e. the class you are

as i said previously the proc is legit, and it is negligible in 1on1, it is an hard counter to purify, eventho purify already had other counters and its ok

the fact that in mass pvp, if you get into a paralyze chain, you wont be able to do anything to counter it and you ll be dead..

moreover this proc makes assassin class even more powerful,
since the only way to resist the loop is to have sage tidal or deplete genie\apo (that by the way works only once, and the skill has 5 seconds cooldown)

I guess the best fix to that mass spamming would be to make the skill unoverwriteable like a normal stun or freeze. That way you would need to time it properly if you really want to lock someone up. Although you should be aware that BMs could lock you up way more efficiantly. Demon BMs para lasts for 7.5 seconds and has a 100% chance to proc if the hit doesnt miss. course it costs a spark...but if you take some bms just for this purpose then it will use you nothing to just nerf the barb skill.

And sure. I wouldnt mind if they boost the purify skill a bit so it could puri paralyze. The devs just would have to make it purify Only and I'm talking about the actual cleric skill. I guess that would enhance the teamplayability between the group and a cleric as well.

Like I said. the only OP thing is the overwriteability of paralyze. Right now you could let a bm use paralyze and you count roughly to 6 and let another bm use paralyze as well. no timing needed and absolutely unblockable cept for purify...but due to the fact that they could just spam it randomly it might take you by surprise anyways.

Just my 2 cents.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

I guess the best fix to that mass spamming would be to make the skill unoverwriteable like a normal stun or freeze. That way you would need to time it properly if you really want to lock someone up. Although you should be aware that BMs could lock you up way more efficiantly. Demon BMs para lasts for 7.5 seconds and has a 100% chance to proc if the hit doesnt miss. course it costs a spark...but if you take some bms just for this purpose then it will use you nothing to just nerf the barb skill.

And sure. I wouldnt mind if they boost the purify skill a bit so it could puri paralyze. The devs just would have to make it purify Only and I'm talking about the actual cleric skill. I guess that would enhance the teamplayability between the group and a cleric as well.

Like I said. the only OP thing is the overwriteability of paralyze. Right now you could let a bm use paralyze and you count roughly to 6 and let another bm use paralyze as well. no timing needed and absolutely unblockable cept for purify...but due to the fact that they could just spam it randomly it might take you by surprise anyways.

Just my 2 cents.

the main problem is that doesnt overwrite, problem is theorically you have 1 second mirror between first mighty swing proc and the second mighty swing

if the barbs are 2 you will just get paralyze, then paralyze again right after you wont even have that 1 second mirror

you say ok if you put 2 bms will be the same thing,

nope it would not, cause bms have significant cooldown and chi cost for it, after they land it the first time they wont be able to land it right after

eventho bms have other bugged\broken mass pvp mechanics such reeling the on-ground target in the air and then freezing it there w\o the option to take any action
but thats a plain bug its not the skill by itself... and its already abused by some bms on our server...

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

the main problem is that doesnt overwrite, problem is theorically you have 1 second mirror between first mighty swing proc and the second mighty swing

if the barbs are 2 you will just get paralyze, then paralyze again right after you wont even have that 1 second mirror

you say ok if you put 2 bms will be the same thing,

nope it would not, cause bms have significant cooldown and chi cost for it, after they land it the first time they wont be able to land it right after

eventho bms have other bugged\broken mass pvp mechanics such reeling the on-ground target in the air and then freezing it there w\o the option to take any action
but thats a plain bug its not the skill by itself... and its already abused by some bms on our server...

a 15 sec CD on a 7.5 sec paralyze is supposed to be weaker then a 60% chance paralyze? Are you kidding me? if the two bms are able to time it properly you wont have a tiny chance to get out of it. On barbs you still have the chance for the skill to miss. No such thing for bms. An lets be serious here. On well teamed situations any play is dead if you cant do a thing in 15 seconds, it doesnt really matter what kind of CD those skills have.

The BM version of paralyze is by far more dangerous then the barb one but ok, give it a chi cost of 50 chi each hit but make it 100%, I so ****** wouldnt mind this as this would make the skill even more OP. But I dont blame you for having this disturbed picture about BMs. Cept for Zanryu all BMs on our server are complete failures. No timing, no skill, no nothing. That goes at least for all end-game geared BMs (full r9 and such).

But trust me on this. If the skill wouldnt be overwriteable it would solve most of your problems. With all the lag and delay and stuff its nearly impossible to perfectly time a hit like that. You would most of the time have the chance to jump away (as a wiz) or the skill will be in vain because the effect is still active.

Chrisalys - Dreamweaver

I don't think mighty swing is overpowered as it is.

If does a barb start to spam it, you can simply use a vacuity powder or your favorite antistun effect, 50% of the time it will land a blockable stun and the other 50% an unblockable one, you can just jump away and keep on doing what you was doing prior to Mighty Swing Spam.

Also, duration is 4 seconds, cooldown is 6 (SIX seconds, not five) Go look in the encyclopedia XxHotxX, this gives you at least 2 seconds of response time.

Also, if you have 2 (Even undergeared) BMs you'll have just as many trouble if they know to stun lock.

Just as you'd do with 2 undergeared bms, use Absolute Domain + Vacuity Powder, take both down and go back to your tab 1, tab 2 b:bye

Tankarei - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

the argument is paralyze spammability mass-pvp wise, a single paralyze proc opens a fkload of opportunities for AA or else, a paralyze loop makes you 100% dead w.e. the class you are

If you're noob, yes.
Being "overgeared" doesn't mean you're meant to tank 5+ people in the other side being a caster.

I'm pretty sure you're just a rager who cashed a lot to be able to kill in PvP even tho you suck at it, now you're just pissed off because you're being forced to learn how to play the game.

Zheii - Archosaur

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

So we have a BM complaining about a barb and sin stuns.

What must come of this world....

As a barb, i feel like we are kinda screwed on the stun department actually. We have only 1 and it lasts just long enough that you can make 1 max 2 more hits before they are gone again. Other players have stuns that can be chained and might alow them to kill me before i can retaliate.

Sure, i know, you cant break the stun of some of the new skills including mighty swing. Hardly a reason to scream imo. The other stuns can also only be broken until your anti stun skills are on cooldown while surely there are always more stuns to come.

I as a barb would be pretty damn happy if mighty swing as well as all other stun skills were removed from the game. (I actually think PWI PvP sucks balls because it is way to much focused on stuns. Not being able to do anything so often sucks. No stun in the game should last longer than 3s)

As a seeker, continuously locking someone down is not only practically impossible but also highly chi draining and mostly pointless. Barbs have an aoe stun, I mean you can't get much more OP than that, you also have speed that allows you to catch up to kiting targets along with numerous ways to keep someone from getting away, you're hardly lacking. You're not a CC class you're a Tank, your purpose isn't to lock people down.
You ask to have stuns removed but what would you have them replaced with? What on earth could they be replaced with? The new paralyze is broken, both the BM and Barb skills that use it need a lot longer cool down, currently They are so spam-able that it becomes impossible to combat it.
If I'm in a full on fight and I get paralyzed it's insta death most of the time, not because the BM/Barb/veno kills me but because I can't do anything to protect myself against the hard hitting DDs that have targeted me while I'm paralyzed.

Even just 1v1ing BMs now has become extremely challenging, I had to get Expel on my genie so that I wouldn't die while being paralyzed, And considering the amount of Phys def I have that's saying something x.x.

Tankarei - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

Imo devs have to nerf the proc Mass-pvp wise, like giving it a major cooldown or a major chi cost...

It is ridiculous to upgrade a skill that costs no chi in first place and it begins to cost chi in its newer/stronger version.

Barbs did need a decent CC, exactly EVERY class (even asssassins) can out-range barbs and DD from outside barb's range. Any poor crappy freeze is a pain in the *** when you're a barb.

Do make a barb and play the class, you'll see how YOUR class is overpowered instead.

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Even just 1v1ing BMs now has become extremely challenging, I had to get Expel on my genie so that I wouldn't die while being paralyzed, And considering the amount of Phys def I have that's saying something x.x.

"Victims" talk as if they don't have sage/demon unfetter, quid pro quo, genie, magical hitting skills...

Joe - Morai

the funny thing is. Ever since I'm here on the forums I always said that Barbs are the most OP class and got laughed at for it. Now all of a sudden several voices rise and want a nerf for Barbs cuz they are too OP. Seriously. The paralyze is a nice addon but nothing that would break the OPness of Barbs. The High survivability and the possible huge dmg output (if skilled right) is what makes barbs OP and Solid Shield ofc =P err genie overall I meant.

BTW Hot is pretty mean. If he would stop gearing up that much and give me the chance to catch up then I could show him HOW OP Barbs really are =P but ya know, farming things doesnt go that smooth these days with gold prices up to 3,5m each ._. I want my 1m golds back ._.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Tankarei - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"Victims" talk as if they don't have sage/demon unfetter, quid pro quo, genie, magical hitting skills...

Because Unfetter can block paralyze/be used after being paralyzed and Barbs can't straight up tank whatever combo comes their way?

XXHotXx - Morai

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Because Unfetter can block paralyze/be used after being paralyzed and Barbs can't straight up tank whatever combo comes their way?

+1
well that tankarei calls me noob but dont bring argument, i've plenty of barb players that honestly admitted that the primal Mighty Swing as it is now its way too overpowered...

one thing is to stun, another thing is to permanently lock your target in an uncounterable CC

@ joe: well you know already if we'd 1on1 i wont use apo or anyways i ll try to bring it equal >-<


barbs can be considered op cause of their massive sustain\survivability, they are able to tank entire factions in TWs for several minutes...
but thats not being op, thats being the tank role... and its legit...

tho the tank shouldn't have features that completely go beyond the tank role such as a spammable uncounterable CC

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

+1
well that tankarei calls me noob but dont bring argument, i've plenty of barb players that honestly admitted that the primal Mighty Swing as it is now its way too overpowered...

one thing is to stun, another thing is to permanently lock your target in an uncounterable CC

@ joe: well you know already if we'd 1on1 i wont use apo or anyways i ll try to bring it equal >-<


barbs can be considered op cause of their massive sustain\survivability, they are able to tank entire factions in TWs for several minutes...
but thats not being op, thats being the tank role... and its legit...

tho the tank shouldn't have features that completely go beyond the tank role such as a spammable uncounterable CC

But thats the point. The only troublesome Barb Built one could encounter that makes the paralyze a bit unfair is the max str built or a built equal to mine (with a bit more dex).

Ofc if you get spammparalyzed by alot of players it is unfair also. but if you nerf the paralyze of a barb then you will eliminate all full vit (tw built) barbs to kill anything on their own.

This is not entirely a game that is focused on mass PvP. Surely it has some PvP events that rely on that...but not neccesarily.

And that whole picture of "roles" in that game...well have you taken a look onto other games lately? Isnt it good enough for you guys that all classes can achieve amazing survivability in this game? Look at other games. DD classes are most of the time built to dish out amazing dmg but once you get them they die like nothing. Although it is hard to kill tanks in any game.

The concept of a DD would be the image of a wiz (for example) being a glass cannon and thats it. If you follow the regular RPG Concepts of classes then you Hot, as a wiz has to die instantly when a phys DD stands beside you and hitting on you.

I noticed this quite often lately. ppl wanna push certain classes into something they think woul dbe the regular term for this class and on the other hand refuse to see that if that would apply to one class it would have to apply to all classes.

The fact alone that any DD in this game could survive a combined attack of 2 or more players breaks this concept, that shouldnt be. A DD is not made to be tanky at all, not a bit. So you see this whole "tank" concept doesnt apply at all, because the whole "DD" and "healer" concept doesnt apply as well.

TBH any class can kill any other class in PvP. Its just the fact that some classes have to try a little harder to beat someone else although it heavily depends on player skill as well. Its not all about gear and the class...a little bit of skill still matters.

PS: Something important for me: Please ppl stop complaining about anything mass PvP related. That will always be an insta death fest if you get ganked. for. any. class. Whats even the point to ramble about a skill that isnt even an AOE? If two or more chars are needed to bring you down then you alrdy did a great job in the mass PvP situation. What they do to you doesnt matter at all. Its about efficiency. Just let some groups have the possibility to kill someone with 2 or more ppl...which would be a total normal thing in any other friggin MMORPG there is.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

But thats the point. The only troublesome Barb Built one could encounter that makes the paralyze a bit unfair is the max str built or a built equal to mine (with a bit more dex).

Ofc if you get spammparalyzed by alot of players it is unfair also. but if you nerf the paralyze of a barb then you will eliminate all full vit (tw built) barbs to kill anything on their own.

This is not entirely a game that is focused on mass PvP. Surely it has some PvP events that rely on that...but not neccesarily.

And that whole picture of "roles" in that game...well have you taken a look onto other games lately? Isnt it good enough for you guys that all classes can achieve amazing survivability in this game? Look at other games. DD classes are most of the time built to dish out amazing dmg but once you get them they die like nothing. Although it is hard to kill tanks in any game.

The concept of a DD would be the image of a wiz (for example) being a glass cannon and thats it. If you follow the regular RPG Concepts of classes then you Hot, as a wiz has to die instantly when a phys DD stands beside you and hitting on you.

I noticed this quite often lately. ppl wanna push certain classes into something they think woul dbe the regular term for this class and on the other hand refuse to see that if that would apply to one class it would have to apply to all classes.

The fact alone that any DD in this game could survive a combined attack of 2 or more players breaks this concept, that shouldnt be. A DD is not made to be tanky at all, not a bit. So you see this whole "tank" concept doesnt apply at all, because the whole "DD" and "healer" concept doesnt apply as well.

TBH any class can kill any other class in PvP. Its just the fact that some classes have to try a little harder to beat someone else although it heavily depends on player skill as well. Its not all about gear and the class...a little bit of skill still matters.

PS: Something important for me: Please ppl stop complaining about anything mass PvP related. That will always be an insta death fest if you get ganked. for. any. class. Whats even the point to ramble about a skill that isnt even an AOE? If two or more chars are needed to bring you down then you alrdy did a great job in the mass PvP situation. What they do to you doesnt matter at all. Its about efficiency. Just let some groups have the possibility to kill someone with 2 or more ppl...which would be a total normal thing in any other friggin MMORPG there is.

well the tank offtank classes are barb seeker and bm ...

then there are broken features like sage tidal but thats another kettle of fish...

and trust me wizard is not a reliable DD atm...

wizard was the DPHer for excellence, after debuffs got considerably nerfed, there is almost no such thing as dph

there are 2 ways to kill endgame, dps down or bypass charm...

bypassing charm most likely require high crit rate \ zerkcrits and debuffs\amps...

debuffs are not reliable anymore, also you have to consider stuff like deaden nerves, cornered or mystic resurrect, so the best chance to kill someone @ endgame is to dps him down

now which are the classes that can dps?

sins, archers (tho not as solid dpsers as they were in past), mystics, psychics.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

No, to making it purifiable (purify proc would run too far rampant again), yes to a genie/apo removal of the proc.

Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721

Kitty haz only one thing to say to those who insist on nerfing Primal Mighty Swing 'cause "too OP in mass PVP".

Noobz.

Two barbs spamming Mighty Swing doesn't differ much from 2 APS-sins spamming Occult Ice. Actually latter are worse as they tend to do more DPS among sparking and full str OI procs more often. And if you don't have genie prepared to counter, then it's your own slackiness.

Finally barbs got something to stop dem effin wizzies with(though ofc barbs already had Ancestral Rage, but excluding that good wizzies were almost impossible to catch by a mere barb)f:cool

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

As a seeker, continuously locking someone down is not only practically impossible but also highly chi draining and mostly pointless. Barbs have an aoe stun, I mean you can't get much more OP than that, you also have speed that allows you to catch up to kiting targets along with numerous ways to keep someone from getting away, you're hardly lacking. You're not a CC class you're a Tank, your purpose isn't to lock people down.
You ask to have stuns removed but what would you have them replaced with? What on earth could they be replaced with? The new paralyze is broken, both the BM and Barb skills that use it need a lot longer cool down, currently They are so spam-able that it becomes impossible to combat it.
If I'm in a full on fight and I get paralyzed it's insta death most of the time, not because the BM/Barb/veno kills me but because I can't do anything to protect myself against the hard hitting DDs that have targeted me while I'm paralyzed.

Even just 1v1ing BMs now has become extremely challenging, I had to get Expel on my genie so that I wouldn't die while being paralyzed, And considering the amount of Phys def I have that's saying something x.x.

Oh my PvP has become more challenging for you I am so sorry to hereb:cry.By they way, did you just seriously say Barbs AOE stun is OP LOL!? Please someone tell me I mis read that....*Debates eating keyboard*

Zheii - Archosaur

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

Because Unfetter can block paralyze/be used after being paralyzed and Barbs can't straight up tank whatever combo comes their way?

Well said, also it seems to me like the people trying to convince us that paralyze isn't broken are all barbs, I wish people weren't so Bias towards their class. At least try and see things from the perspective of people you're fighting and try and think about the overall balance of the game, win with skill not the fact that with the latest patch you're the most OP.
Don't you think PvP on this game would be a lot more fun if the game was balanced? Try and think about that instead of feeling the need to "be the current most OP class".

/Edit

Kiymori - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh my PvP has become more challenging for you I am so sorry to hereb:cry.By they way, did you just seriously say Barbs AOE stun is OP LOL!? Please someone tell me I mis read that....*Debates eating keyboard*

Okay, let me explain, I've been 1v1ing a BM on my server who I would say Is one of the best skilled BMs I've seen. Before he got his Dragon Rising I could last a long time against him, without having expel on my genie and without really fearing his lock downs too much.
Now after he's gotten Dragon Rising I'm struggling to survive being paralyzed even once, but the kicker is after I expel to save myself from dying as soon as my expel wears off guess what is off cool down already? Dragons Rising, meaning that I'm locked down again with no way to defend myself and my charm has just ticked. It's actually impossible to survive in this situation if he gets a few lucky zerk crits.

From my perspective an AoE stun is OP if timed right and has other classes standing behind the barb/bm channeling high damage aoe skills.
You have to remember stuns for me are very high cost or luck based, so from my point of view in a mass PvP situation a stun that can stun everyone in the area and allow for AoEs to be dropped on those stunned players is greatly OP.
But that's just my perspective, other people like yourself obviously don't view it that way.

Enjoy eating your keyboard btw, I hope it's really yummy!

XXHotXx - Morai

Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »

Kitty haz only one thing to say to those who insist on nerfing Primal Mighty Swing 'cause "too OP in mass PVP".

Noobz.

Two barbs spamming Mighty Swing doesn't differ much from 2 APS-sins spamming Occult Ice. Actually latter are worse as they tend to do more DPS among sparking and full str OI procs more often. And if you don't have genie prepared to counter, then it's your own slackiness.

Finally barbs got something to stop dem effin wizzies with(though ofc barbs already had Ancestral Rage, but excluding that good wizzies were almost impossible to catch by a mere barb)f:cool

rofl @ the amount of ignorance in this comment

you can purify cleanse occult ice, you cant do the same with mighty swing

you cant land occult ice as any other CC on a anti-stun\purify proc

you can land paralyze on that tho

wtf you seriously calling wizards as the worse treat in mass pvp?

there are sins that can 1skill you down from stealth, but no wizards are the threat XD