Reduce Primal Mighty Swing mass pvp efficiency

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

rofl @ the amount of ignorance in this comment

you can purify cleanse occult ice, you cant do the same with mighty swing

you cant land occult ice as any other CC on a anti-stun\purify proc

you can land paralyze on that tho

wtf you seriously calling wizards as the worse treat in mass pvp?

there are sins that can 1skill you down from stealth, but no wizards are the threat XD

Yeah, wizards go "1skill you down" one by one, not in stealth. While a wizard kills 10 a sin kills 1 from stealth.

Its funny how you insist showing you class's weak spots and concealing their big assets, while exposing other classes strong assets and concealing their flaws, just to make "Justice" look a bit more favorable to you.

I'm an assassin and I prefer to fight other sin with elimination than a wizard.

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Well said, also it seems to me like the people trying to convince us that paralyze isn't broken are all barbs, I wish people weren't so Bias towards their class. At least try and see things from the perspective of people you're fighting and try and think about the overall balance of the game, win with skill not the fact that with the latest patch you're the most OP.
Don't you think PvP on this game would be a lot more fun if the game was balanced? Try and think about that instead of feeling the need to "be the current most OP class".

/Edit



Okay, let me explain, I've been 1v1ing a BM on my server who I would say Is one of the best skilled BMs I've seen. Before he got his Dragon Rising I could last a long time against him, without having expel on my genie and without really fearing his lock downs too much.
Now after he's gotten Dragon Rising I'm struggling to survive being paralyzed even once, but the kicker is after I expel to save myself from dying as soon as my expel wears off guess what is off cool down already? Dragons Rising, meaning that I'm locked down again with no way to defend myself and my charm has just ticked. It's actually impossible to survive in this situation if he gets a few lucky zerk crits.

From my perspective an AoE stun is OP if timed right and has other classes standing behind the barb/bm channeling high damage aoe skills.
You have to remember stuns for me are very high cost or luck based, so from my point of view in a mass PvP situation a stun that can stun everyone in the area and allow for AoEs to be dropped on those stunned players is greatly OP.
But that's just my perspective, other people like yourself obviously don't view it that way.

Enjoy eating your keyboard btw, I hope it's really yummy!

b:cry omg your post is so appealing! Poor seekers victims to mean barbs OMG! b:cry

/endsarcasm

I hope you know they test everything in chinese test servers and if they did release something then YES it is balanced. The chinese way.

I am a sin and looking really towards my class I am not favorable to 35/40 att levels from chill of the deep because it really makes assassins murderous. But I don't also agree with how dull sins are against 2 or more ranged targets. Furthermore how archers can leap 20m twice and we sins like 35m once every 15s. Wizards can leap 28/30m once every 10s (further more with Arcane defense). This would be ok and funny if sin were a tanky class, but really, its the most vulnerable (least defenses combined with lame range) class in the game.

So in the end, all overpowerness sin ended getting just "covers" the weakness they had in the first place.

Oh wayt have you seen that? I was exposing all my class weakness and concealing its overpowerness to weight balance in my favor, just like you guys are doing all day long.

Yes every class is overpowered in one aspect and underpowered in other, deal with it.

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Well said, also it seems to me like the people trying to convince us that paralyze isn't broken are all barbs, I wish people weren't so Bias towards their class. At least try and see things from the perspective of people you're fighting and try and think about the overall balance of the game, win with skill not the fact that with the latest patch you're the most OP.
Don't you think PvP on this game would be a lot more fun if the game was balanced? Try and think about that instead of feeling the need to "be the current most OP class".

/Edit



Okay, let me explain, I've been 1v1ing a BM on my server who I would say Is one of the best skilled BMs I've seen. Before he got his Dragon Rising I could last a long time against him, without having expel on my genie and without really fearing his lock downs too much.
Now after he's gotten Dragon Rising I'm struggling to survive being paralyzed even once, but the kicker is after I expel to save myself from dying as soon as my expel wears off guess what is off cool down already? Dragons Rising, meaning that I'm locked down again with no way to defend myself and my charm has just ticked. It's actually impossible to survive in this situation if he gets a few lucky zerk crits.

From my perspective an AoE stun is OP if timed right and has other classes standing behind the barb/bm channeling high damage aoe skills.
You have to remember stuns for me are very high cost or luck based, so from my point of view in a mass PvP situation a stun that can stun everyone in the area and allow for AoEs to be dropped on those stunned players is greatly OP.
But that's just my perspective, other people like yourself obviously don't view it that way.

Enjoy eating your keyboard btw, I hope it's really yummy!

I was going to give you some sarcastic response but Sevch beat me to it. Though I ended up having baked salmon instead of the keyboard since you seem to care.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:cry omg your post is so appealing! Poor seekers victims to mean barbs OMG! b:cry

/endsarcasm

I hope you know they test everything in chinese test servers and if they did release something then YES it is balanced. The chinese way.

I am a sin and looking really towards my class I am not favorable to 35/40 att levels from chill of the deep because it really makes assassins murderous. But I don't also agree with how dull sins are against 2 or more ranged targets. Furthermore how archers can leap 20m twice and we sins like 35m once every 15s. Wizards can leap 28/30m once every 10s (further more with Arcane defense). This would be ok and funny if sin were a tanky class, but really, its the most vulnerable (least defenses combined with lame range) class in the game.

So in the end, all overpowerness sin ended getting just "covers" the weakness they had in the first place.

Oh wayt have you seen that? I was exposing all my class weakness and concealing its overpowerness to weight balance in my favor, just like you guys are doing all day long.

Yes every class is overpowered in one aspect and underpowered in other, deal with it.

And what exactly is the chinese way? As it currently stands this game is far from anything even closely resembling balance. Do tell us how it's so well balanced O' wise one.

How dull you are against two ranged targets? I'm noticing the "two" in there. Assassins are light armor, they shouldn't be able to handle two DD type opponents on their own. As for the leaps of any of the classes... I understand your discontent. I mean.. they can leap out of your range and prevent you from doing anything since you don't have two 30+ meter teleports, a seal, stuns, a sleep, or a freeze. There's just no possible way for you to catch up to the-- Oh. Wait minute, you do have those? Well ****.

Assassins are the second most broken class in the game, if only because Barbarians are complete monsters in 1v1. If it weren't for the sheer amount of defenses Barbarians have to back their monstrous HP it'd honestly go to sins, but the title of most broken class currently belongs to the kitties. I really shouldn't have to explain why these two are at the top of the food chain in most cases. Of course, I will, so you can understand.

Barbs: Invoke, Solid Shield, Paralyze (spammable), Cornered Beast, Blood Rush.

Sins: Tidal, Deaden, Stealth, Immense CC, Chi regen that literally negates all chi costs (unless they play extremely stupidly), Elimination+Lifehunter.

If the thought "Sins are a lame class, worst defenses and worst range" ever pops into your head it's a sign you aren't fit to play this game. Kindly leave. Sins have more range than the other melee classes, have you ever sat there frozen out of a Sin's range tanking their onslaught and being unable to touch them? Trust me, it's a thing, and it's a massive pain.

The fact that you believe this game is balanced in any sense astounds me.

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Zanryu - Lothranis wrote: »

...

I did delete what you said to save up some space here.

You know shadow teleport has like 150 seconds cooldown its negligible unspammable and barely could be taken into acount when "Reaching" other classes.

When i talk of "Against 2 ranged DDs" im saying sins really can barely take on, they have to just give up and resort to stealthing away but WAIT, someone 1 lv below you can see you with apos.

And we see lots of wizards/psychics tanking 2 or more archers that wasn't also meant to happen.

So, you're suggesting that sins, with their incredible ability to kill 1 by 1 is too much more OP than a psy who kills a lot of other DDs easily before being even reached?

I think you're messing up stuff, you're forgetting to place some strong points in one side and weak points in the other of the scales, All the "Heavy CC" you say a sin can have is nothing against a purify spell caster, even less against a wizard.

If you say: But you're wrong on being a DPS sin, shoud you be a DPH sin fully R9R3 yadda yadda. This way I wouldn't deal damage quickly enough to take down a mystic/cleric/barb before they outheal my damage.

While I don't exactly agree with your "Infinite" chi affirmation, we sins indeed have a very good chi balance. But:
- We spend 2 sparks for something bms can do with 1. (Headhunt Vs Drake Bash)
- Our AMP AoE barely reaches half BM's potential (Subsea vs Heaven's Flame)
- Our seal costs 1 spark (wizzie's costs no chi)
- Our Sleep costs 50 chi and only lasts for 5s.
- We don't have a mass stun for 35 chi.
- We can't bear as much damage as a BM can.
- LA armor Phys+Mag def values are lower than AA and HA armors.
- We cant reach as far as other squishy classes of the game. (only squishy melee class)
- Thank god we have all those weaknesses because they justify the strong points.

- Being able to stealth is but a defensive asset, even like any underleveled person with an apo can see you through stealth.
- Archers crit as hard as Zerkcrits from sins, but worse: Archer crits happen much more often than a sin Zerkcrit. Archers have 10% and 20% crit bonus from their spammable chi costless sage/demon skills.
- A Seeker Zerkrit with magical skill is too much more OP than a sin when placing against a BM/Barb/Archer/Sin for example.
- An assassin have the asset of the "First Hit" (by coming from stealth), which is lame unless it really kills the target. But While a sin can kill 1 target with their asset, an archer kills 5~10 targets with his asset (his range) OH and they can stealth too!

Now, sins have a giant Atk levels at a "negligible" cost (psychics lose def lvls to have OP att lv), IMO thats the most "OP" thing sins do have, everything else is just overrated. And know what? That's what saves sins from being a complete failure.

I prefer to fight another sin than fighting an archer, because its way easier, sins are way weaker than the others.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I did delete what you said to save up some space here.

You know shadow teleport has like 150 seconds cooldown its negligible unspammable and barely could be taken into acount when "Reaching" other classes.

I'd say a 3-5 second stun with a 30+ meter range is significant, so long as the Assassin in question doesn't waste it.


When i talk of "Against 2 ranged DDs" im saying sins really can barely take on, they have to just give up and resort to stealthing away but WAIT, someone 1 lv below you can see you with apos.

You sure about that? 'cause I've watched sins take on equal and even higher geared range DDs. They didn't lose.

And we see lots of wizards/psychics tanking 2 or more archers that wasn't also meant to happen.

Considering the immense defensive potential of both classes this isn't shocking. Though the Psychic can't do much while in white voodoo and the Wizard will be extremely vulnerable if purged, seeing as it lacks a large amount of CC. Sorry but what drawbacks does the sin have again?

So, you're suggesting that sins, with their incredible ability to kill 1 by 1 is too much more OP than a psy who kills a lot of other DDs easily before being even reached?

Both Tideborn classes are broken, it's been that way since their release. It just so happens that Assassins are more so. SoS has counters and checks, Tidal Protection does not.

I think you're messing up stuff, you're forgetting to place some strong points in one side and weak points in the other of the scales, All the "Heavy CC" you say a sin can have is nothing against a purify spell caster, even less against a wizard.

Except that it is. The sheer amount of damage dealt by the class is enough that even with Purify Spell surviving would be a challenge. Keep in mind that Purify Spell won't always activate, but with as much accuracy as they have an Assassin will almost always land its CC or damage skills.

If you say: But you're wrong on being a DPS sin, shoud you be a DPH sin fully R9R3 yadda yadda. This way I wouldn't deal damage quickly enough to take down a mystic/cleric/barb before they outheal my damage.

...wut?

While I don't exactly agree with your "Infinite" chi affirmation, we sins indeed have a very good chi balance. But:
- We spend 2 sparks for something bms can do with 1. (Headhunt Vs Drake Bash)
Once our chi is gone, it's gone. You effectively spend no chi on CC with proper skill management. No matter how well I manage my stunlock I'm losing chi. Period.
- Our AMP AoE barely reaches half BM's potential (Subsea vs Heaven's Flame)
At least you don't need your amp just to bring down a heavy armor.
- Our seal costs 1 spark (wizzie's costs no chi)
Yours does a large amount of damage and has the potential to amp if Sage. It also lasts longer. Also, again, you **** chi.
- Our Sleep costs 50 chi and only lasts for 5s.
That 5 seconds is often enough to let something cooldown. It's usually followed by Tackling Slash which GIVES 50 chi.
- We don't have a mass stun for 35 chi.
Neither do most other classes. My CC still pales in comparison to yours when it comes to single targets. Also, RotP is negated easily enough and quite predictable.
- We can't bear as much damage as a BM can.
I would hope not. You can passively resists debuffs, and in a lot of cases remain out of range of an attacker. You can also lock them better than any other class. These factors combined make Assassins able to tank extremely well. Or.. rather survive well.
- LA armor Phys+Mag def values are lower than AA and HA armors.
Your point being?
- We cant reach as far as other squishy classes of the game. (only squishy melee class)
You can jump to your target, stealth to get to them, and CC them once you do. Oh, and don't forget the extreme damage.
- Thank god we have all those weaknesses because they justify the strong points.
Your only weaknesses are a lack of defense. At least in the sense that your armor values are lower than the other two archetypes. However, you do possess more HP than Arcanes with your light armor and have a large amount of ways to control the fight. You are far from a weak class.

- Being able to stealth is but a defensive asset, even like any underleveled person with an apo can see you through stealth.
Those pots take time to use. A good Assassin only needs that long to launch their counter attack. As long as they get a second or two reprieve from attacks they can turn the fight in their favor because if you can't see it.. you can't hit it, and if you can't hit it, it has free reign to do what it needs to. Even if it's only a few seconds.
- Archers crit as hard as Zerkcrits from sins, but worse: Archer crits happen much more often than a sin Zerkcrit. Archers have 10% and 20% crit bonus from their spammable chi costless sage/demon skills.
You have nearly the same passive crit as they do, as well as the ability to lock them down and stay on them. Oh, and of course stealth for a moment or two to let things cooldown.
- A Seeker Zerkrit with magical skill is too much more OP than a sin when placing against a BM/Barb/Archer/Sin for example.
I'm not going to argue the nature of Seeker zerk crits, it's well known that they're broken as well.
- An assassin have the asset of the "First Hit" (by coming from stealth), which is lame unless it really kills the target. But While a sin can kill 1 target with their asset, an archer kills 5~10 targets with his asset (his range) OH and they can stealth too!
What kind of people are you fighting where an Archer kills 5-10 in the time it takes for an Assassin to kill 1? There must be some serious gear difference between the Assassin and Archer, or the targets they have.

Now, sins have a giant Atk levels at a "negligible" cost (psychics lose def lvls to have OP att lv), IMO thats the most "OP" thing sins do have, everything else is just overrated. And know what? That's what saves sins from being a complete failure.

You.. Just.. I don't.. What even.. I.. Just.. wow. No words dude.

I prefer to fight another sin than fighting an archer, because its way easier, sins are way weaker than the others.

Replies in red.

opkossy

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When i talk of "Against 2 ranged DDs" im saying sins really can barely take on, they have to just give up and resort to stealthing away but WAIT, someone 1 lv below you can see you with apos.

.... Wut.

Unless the sin is using level 10 shadow escape (which we wouldn't assume in a discussion based on endgame), they have to be your level or greater. Level 11 shadow escape is 11 stealth levels, remember?

... And if the sin is using shadow walk the fight's already over since you can't use that in combat. That plus the fact detect pots do have a cooldown and have a slight delay (or a long delay depending on your quest latency at the time) since all they do is, in essence, activate a quest.

Zheii - Archosaur

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:cry omg your post is so appealing! Poor seekers victims to mean barbs OMG! b:cry

/endsarcasm

I hope you know they test everything in chinese test servers and if they did release something then YES it is balanced. The chinese way.

I am a sin and looking really towards my class I am not favorable to 35/40 att levels from chill of the deep because it really makes assassins murderous. But I don't also agree with how dull sins are against 2 or more ranged targets. Furthermore how archers can leap 20m twice and we sins like 35m once every 15s. Wizards can leap 28/30m once every 10s (further more with Arcane defense). This would be ok and funny if sin were a tanky class, but really, its the most vulnerable (least defenses combined with lame range) class in the game.

So in the end, all overpowerness sin ended getting just "covers" the weakness they had in the first place.

Oh wayt have you seen that? I was exposing all my class weakness and concealing its overpowerness to weight balance in my favor, just like you guys are doing all day long.

Yes every class is overpowered in one aspect and underpowered in other, deal with it.

Did you even bother to read my post? Or did you just assume that I was QQing about barbs, because I hardly even mentioned them in my post at all, I was talking about the BM paralyze mostly, Also I can't believe you called a class that has tidal protection vulnerable lmfao.

Kiymori - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I was going to give you some sarcastic response but Sevch beat me to it. Though I ended up having baked salmon instead of the keyboard since you seem to care.

A sarcastic response to what? Me expressing my thoughts on an issue that is being talked about in this thread? I was hardly mean or unjustified in my response. I really don't understand why you guys feel the need to lash out with something like sarcasm, it's honestly the lowest form of humor by far.
Also baked salmon sounds yummy, I'm glad you didn't eat your keyboard, that didn't sound very pleasant in the slightest.

Eoria - Harshlands

Sins failing to understand how broken their class is never fails to amuse me.

Joe - Morai

The most OP side of sins has always been that their dmg is far ahead their survivability and ofc most of the times far beyond the survivability of other classes. You see so many ppl running around in full r9 full +10 and I have to admit that sins are nearly the only class that really demands gear equal to their dmg output to last.

Most sind refine their weap to +12...thats the first thing the do while running around with other ****ty refines. But honestly...and that could be proofen on any pserver...at maxed gears sins are still at a disadvantage (although that mostly apllies to melee chars) aimply because they cant raise their dmg even higher...so as ppl gear up and getting closer to full josd full +12...the sins are getting weaker in comparision.

No one can tell me (as a barb/bm or seeker) that they would lose to a sin in endgame? redicolous. never. too much damn HP and too much def. OFC sins do have a neck for AA classes. they will always surpass them and nearly always deal enough dmg to kill them before they can even react. But really. the only OP thing is Tidal Protection...all other skills can easily be blocked with no problem. If you make a special anti sin genie there is no kiting either.

Without tidal it would go:

Hey I'm a sin...I'm going to hi...stun...getting hit...hit...hit...dead. But with tidal its like:
Hey I'm a sin...triple spark...I hit you...hit.hit.hithithithithithithit....oh you tried to stun me 6 times til you dropped dead? too bad...I didnt even notice.

Really sins depend on tidal. without that they would drop like flies.

And ya. like I said the bm paralyze is far more OP then the barb one. And honestly...you guys should play on pservers more often. I have absolutely no prob to fight barbs and sins with any class then especially on maxed gears it depends alot more on player skill. sure you got a great basis...but if you cant use that basis you will loose anyway.

xD its not like I would always pretend barbs are the best because I'm a barb. I'm better then the majority of player with ALL classes. so...its just that barbs really are the strongest and I could tell you guys that a bazillion times. Mighty swing is nice to have but it is not the reason for barbs being OP. Although I have to admit that most ppl are simply too dumb to come up with a counterstrategy especially against their nemesis class.

And just as a little note...ppl always forget to mention one particular skill that makes Barbs even more OP then the paralyze. Poison fang. with that little skill we can just ignore anything lile expel or PW and stun/paralyze you amyways and purge ofc no other melee class got this advantage (dont start with condensed thorn...an attack isnt to be compared to a buff).

I promise. I could easily kill any barb with a maxed out cleric or psy or wizard in 1on1 and I wouldnt even sweat. Myst could be hard due to their lack of DDing but its possible too. and venos dont have any problem as they are the most broken class. If they catch you off guard you are dead no matter what.

What i'm trying to say is that all classes...especially all AA classes should have no problem beating a barb if you do it right. If you'd lile to read a 20 pages long post (which I'm probably too lazy to create) I could write a strategy down for any class to beat another) .

Any class is beatable.. Although as a conclusion xD sins really are the most OP class...cuz I cant think of any strategy an AA class could beat a sin without luck and if the sin knows what he does (on equal gears, end game)...the odds are just too high for the sin to win...but meh...maybe wizards and myst can sustain the dmg long enough to land a lucky hit or two...depends.

QueNa - Sanctuary

Of course barbs are going to defend it since they finally get something broken/OP.. who wouldn't want their class to have OP stuff? just like sins defending sage tidal, just like casters defending purify proc etc etc etc

XXHotXx - Morai

QueNa - Sanctuary wrote: »

Of course barbs are going to defend it since they finally get something broken/OP.. who wouldn't want their class to have OP stuff? just like sins defending sage tidal, just like casters defending purify proc etc etc etc

well but this go beyond any reasonable "extreme" perk such purify...

purify has plenty of counters,

mighty swing has 1 counter: Damage immunity

elimination has 1 counter: Damage immunity

sage tidal has no counters

now find which classes use the skills with less\no counters and here you found the overpowered\unbalanced ones

i share also what zanny pointed out, cept the fact that imo assassins still have the edge on barbs, i receive solid 15-18ks on my full buffs (120 def lvl, 500 spirit and 50k p res) from deity sins,
thats the same damage a josd barb would take,
if the barb would be vit built well that damage will be doubled...

there is a josd barb on my server that got 2shotted from a stealthed deity sin...
hacks? b:chuckle
_____________________________________________________________________________

@ who said that wiz takes down 10 sins easy...

wow, @ endgame and on equal gears wizard has the lowest base magical attack in game due to our weapon damage range (magic sword),

back in time wizard damage was great, cause our skills were adding a lot of damage compared to the average of the endgame mag atk...

now that the skill damage output of every class at endgame is 90% based on the base physical, magical atk value and the damage added by skill itself is negligible (unless those skills multiply the base damage such as elimination, leading that skill to be broken in damage)

and now, that debuffs got more than halved in their efficiency, thus leading wiz spike damage to drop by roughly 70% (if you consider the endgame res values and the asymptotic ele res curve)

wizard is one of the lowest hitter class in game

wizard class was relying on debuffs to be able to dph, that is the only thing wizard can do with our current channelling+cast+cooldown times, last patch gave us a joke of a DPS skill that alone has no use (frozen flame), if pwi wanted to change wizard mechanics moving our class from being pure DPHer to hybrid DPSers, they should've cut by half all our cast times
but probably they messed it up or they just applied a thoughtless nerf...

and dont come and say it was time genie spark to get the nerf, cause spark has a f.ckload of counters, it is predictable and it wasnt game breaking

now debuffs are negligible, and our damage is lowest among the arcane classes... we cant even DPS... enough said

i dont even know why i am replying to someone that did not experience endgame pvp... ><

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

well but this go beyond any reasonable "extreme" perk such purify...

purify has plenty of counters,

mighty swing has 1 counter: Damage immunity

elimination has 1 counter: Damage immunity

sage tidal has no counters

now find which classes use the skills with less\no counters and here you found the overpowered\unbalanced ones

i share also what zanny pointed out, cept the fact that imo assassins still have the edge on barbs, i receive solid 15-18ks on my full buffs (120 def lvl, 500 spirit and 50k p res) from deity sins,
thats the same damage a josd barb would take,
if the barb would be vit built well that damage will be doubled...

there is a josd barb on my server that got 2shotted from a stealthed deity sin...
hacks? b:chuckle
_____________________________________________________________________________

@ who said that wiz takes down 10 sins easy...

wow, @ endgame and on equal gears wizard has the lowest base magical attack in game due to our weapon damage range (magic sword),

back in time wizard damage was great, cause our skills were adding a lot of damage compared to the average of the endgame mag atk...

now that the skill damage output of every class at endgame is 90% based on the base physical, magical atk value and the damage added by skill itself is negligible (unless those skills multiply the base damage such as elimination, leading that skill to be broken in damage)

and now, that debuffs got more than halved in their efficiency, thus leading wiz spike damage to drop by roughly 70% (if you consider the endgame res values and the asymptotic ele res curve)

wizard is one of the lowest hitter class in game

wizard class was relying on debuffs to be able to dph, that is the only thing wizard can do with our current channelling+cast+cooldown times, last patch gave us a joke of a DPS skill that alone has no use (frozen flame), if pwi wanted to change wizard mechanics moving our class from being pure DPHer to hybrid DPSers, they should've cut by half all our cast times
but probably they messed it up or they just applied a thoughtless nerf...

and dont come and say it was time genie spark to get the nerf, cause spark has a f.ckload of counters, it is predictable and it wasnt game breaking

now debuffs are negligible, and our damage is lowest among the arcane classes... we cant even DPS... enough said

i dont even know why i am replying to someone that did not experience endgame pvp... ><

Hot thats not enterily true. You act as if Spark + undine would do nothing atm. You can still kill ppl with it, ok granted, not with an ease as you used to but still. With those debuffs the dmg output from wizards is still unparalleled compared to all other AA classes in this game + you do know that venos got the lowest base DMG of all AA classes cuz its more like a hybrid class (gets more outta vit but less outta mag).

And the hell? You know I always walk around just selfbuffed in PvP and I never got hit that high even from a triple sparked elimination from trinity o.O Who the hell is that full josd barb you are referring to xD? But it is how it is. All other barbs on our server besides me and OverLord are negligible. I can say that for sure because I thought all of them and I won over all of them in 1on1 situations and I had worse gear then them most of the time...so that gives assumptions about their "skill". Not trying to brag or something. I'm just curious which full josd fail barb got himself killed by trini? xDDD

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

Hot thats not enterily true. You act as if Spark + undine would do nothing atm. You can still kill ppl with it, ok granted, not with an ease as you used to but still. With those debuffs the dmg output from wizards is still unparalleled compared to all other AA classes in this game + you do know that venos got the lowest base DMG of all AA classes cuz its more like a hybrid class (gets more outta vit but less outta mag).

And the hell? You know I always walk around just selfbuffed in PvP and I never got hit that high even from a triple sparked elimination from trinity o.O Who the hell is that full josd barb you are referring to xD? But it is how it is. All other barbs on our server besides me and OverLord are negligible. I can say that for sure because I thought all of them and I won over all of them in 1on1 situations and I had worse gear then them most of the time...so that gives assumptions about their "skill". Not trying to brag or something. I'm just curious which full josd fail barb got himself killed by trini? xDDD

i can still kill people with undine+spark (struggling still, considered i am landing a 200% fire res debuff), but thats because i use a 160 dex genie and i outgear anyone on the server...

no other wizard on the server can afford to use the genie i use (no AD, no Expel, no Chi eruption)
and no other wizard have my spirit and mag atk value...

right after NH patch, when i still had a 80 dex genie, the genie i used to have last 2 years, i was hitting 7k crits undine spark on average +10 citrine archers...
thats the undine-sparked damage you would receive if endgame equal geared (consider also that @ endgame equal geared, the wizard cant afford a no AD no Expel no chi eruption genie)


probably you were full buffed, i think a full buffed barb would reach phys res cap, he was self buffed but still he had def lvl p res and spirit values similar to mine

trinity knife thrown a +12 archer in my faction for 21k on his full buffs... nothing much you can do when you have to face this kind of damage

Zoldi - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

All other barbs on our server besides me and OverLord are negligible. I can say that for sure because I thought all of them and I won over all of them in 1on1 situations and I had worse gear then them most of the time...

Seriously? b:chuckle

1) This is not because you win 1v1 against someone same class as you that you are better. Maybe you win against people that are better versus other classes... To be honest I don't even know how a barb can kill another barb endgame...
2) You're really saying there is no good barb at all on our server except you and OverLord just because of that?

Joe - Morai

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Seriously? b:chuckle

1) This is not because you win 1v1 against someone same class as you that you are better. Maybe you win against people that are better versus other classes... To be honest I don't even know how a barb can kill another barb endgame...
2) You're really saying there is no good barb at all on our server except you and OverLord just because of that?

Not only because of that...but tbh...it was kinda weired...before I started to actively PvP on our server all barbs were laughed at. But when I started out somehow after a while anyone started to fear barbs. that is indeed no surprise. After I went active alot of known barbs changed from being full vit to full str. I really dont know how much of an influence I was at this time, but it's a kinda weired coincidence.

And ya tbh. You can only see which one is better at the same class by just fighting against each other. Although I have to admit that a full str barb will just wipe out a full vit barb...the dmg difference is just too extreme. It's not that hard to kill in a barb vs barb scenario.Get his solid shield wasted -> triple spark (purge before ofc) -> penetrate armor + tangling mire + Occult Ice to lock him up and hoping for some nice zerk crits. Thats pretty much it. Pretty simple huh? xD

I give you an example which is quite recent. I fought tryx a few weeks ago in NW. We had a 1on1 going at the falg spot...mainly because we were nearly alone on the map. he used solid shield against me and the fight lasted for about 3 minutes or so. Still I got him killed although he got way!!! better refines and even more Attack/HP/Res then I have. I didnt even use solid shield nor def charms and wasnt even close to lose against him. Why? No pentrate armor...no mighty swing spam, no usage of Bestial onslaught, no nothing. Just like he was just randomly smashing buttons. The same thing can be said about the majority of Full r9 +10 ++ Barbs on our server.

Sure. I play this game for 5 years and know any trick of any class and I can ofc play any class to a decent lvl. My experience is definitly a reason why I win alot of ppl over even tho they got better gears then I do. To be exact, experience in PvP is the most valuable thing you can have and weighs more then gear or War avatars.

BTT: xD ya hot, if you are not using expel that could explain why you have such a hard time against sins like Trinity. Although I'm not quite sure if you are writing from your personal view (cuz you are always stating that you overgear all others by far) or if you are writing from a more common view.

Trinity for example is squishy as hell...I really think she cant 1-shot you. so if you use expel immidiatly you should have no probs killing her. I could think of (undine is too slow imo in some cases): Insta cast: Frozen flame -> Phoenix -> Stone rain -> Primal hailstorm (just for chances to lock her up in case she survives this but meh never.) TBH, the only sin I think would react fast enough to CC you with condensed thorn through Expel would be preist atm...do we even have good sins cept preist or elo on our server? Well not sure bout that^^ The overall "SKILL"-Level of the end-game geared players on our server is...well lets say devestating low. Enough of a reason to kinda outsource the pking to pservers or such, ijs (but there are enough morons as well ._.)

If you start with undine you give a perfect warning to any decently skilled player that you are up to something. PPL actually calculate with it. So just skip it sometimes and see the results. I promise you will be amazed =P

To tidal: Ya tidal is a nasty skill and you can barely lock sin with it on. Any you know what? They rely so much on it...that leaves them actually wide open. Especially for a caster. Dont try to lock them just throw everything you have at them. They dont have a paralyze to stop you, they only have dmg. Take advantage of this, ijs.

And if you are fighting a barb...well its not hard to kite us. Especially as a wiz. Our paralyze cant lock you down at all. It's just that you have to wait for the right moment to fire your combo. SOlid shield CD check, Soul of fire CD or overall low genie energy check then go for it. And that is only for wizards. Mystics, psys and venos only have to overcome solid shield. Soemtimes it might be a good choice to not rely on the undine + spark combo at all. Sometimes I really think you rely too much on it, even tho, esepcially with your gears, its not neccesary.

XXHotXx - Morai

Joe - Morai wrote: »

BTT: xD ya hot, if you are not using expel that could explain why you have such a hard time against sins like Trinity. Although I'm not quite sure if you are writing from your personal view (cuz you are always stating that you overgear all others by far) or if you are writing from a more common view.

i do have an expel genie i use for TWs, and thats were i got that damage on me, its really hard to prevent dmg with expel cause if you get damage from stealth and press expel right after, you will still receive the damage cause it will be calculated before you have time to react

Trinity for example is squishy as hell...I really think she cant 1-shot you. so if you use expel immidiatly you should have no probs killing her. I could think of (undine is too slow imo in some cases): Insta cast: Frozen flame -> Phoenix -> Stone rain -> Primal hailstorm (just for chances to lock her up in case she survives this but meh never.)

no he is not, he has sage tidal and full buffs, said skills are average of 3k on him

If you start with undine you give a perfect warning to any decently skilled player that you are up to something. PPL actually calculate with it. So just skip it sometimes and see the results. I promise you will be amazed =P

any wizard would start with undine xD its like our bread and butter debuff, tho it had been considerably nerfed

To tidal: Ya tidal is a nasty skill and you can barely lock sin with it on. Any you know what? They rely so much on it...that leaves them actually wide open. Especially for a caster. Dont try to lock them just throw everything you have at them. They dont have a paralyze to stop you, they only have dmg. Take advantage of this, ijs.

fact is that their DPS fastly drop me down, my slow cast times wont allow me to dps them down the same way, and i will get debuffed\amped\cced they wont

And if you are fighting a barb...well its not hard to kite us. Especially as a wiz. Our paralyze cant lock you down at all. It's just that you have to wait for the right moment to fire your combo. SOlid shield CD check, Soul of fire CD or overall low genie energy check then go for it. And that is only for wizards. Mystics, psys and venos only have to overcome solid shield. Soemtimes it might be a good choice to not rely on the undine + spark combo at all. Sometimes I really think you rely too much on it, even tho, esepcially with your gears, its not neccesary.

1on1 its true its easy to control a barb, but in mass pvp, not only you cant control a barb, cause you have to focus on controlling primary DDs, barb will be the one controlling you and the whole team-fight scenario, man i hit 2 to 4k with my normal skills, skills that i CANT DPS you cant imagine how wizard relies on spark and how much the debuffs nerf completely destroyed the wizard class

replies in red

Zoldi - Morai

According to me your points are too simplistic and I also assume you don't know all the people on the server (it's very clear when you mentionned the two sins you chose for your example even if I would agree with one of them being probably the best one for me as well)

Joe - Morai wrote: »

And ya tbh. You can only see which one is better at the same class by just fighting against each other. Although I have to admit that a full str barb will just wipe out a full vit barb...the dmg difference is just too extreme.

You always talk about 1v1. The roles of a vita barb and a str barb are not the same ones. The one being the best in 1v1 might not be the most useful in mass PVP, and in this case it would almost be the same as comparing two different classes.

Let's take another example now even if this is just theory. Take two wizzies with exact same gears except that one is sharded with sapphire (only theory) and the other one with garnets. Who would have the best chance to win if they fight each other ? Now let them fight against a sin ? You got my point ?

Another thing, you're not supposed to do the same things against each opponent like a robot. You're supposed to adapt and if you know your opponent it's a great advantage. This is why, in my opinion, you can't for example say "who's the best psychic ?", because maybe one is very good when facing sins but very weak when facing mystics while maybe another one is only good against mystics or against other psychics


But well maybe too much off topic today for me, so I stop here

Joe - Morai

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

According to me your points are too simplistic and I also assume you don't know all the people on the server (it's very clear when you mentionned the two sins you chose for your example even if I would agree with one of them being probably the best one for me as well)



You always talk about 1v1. The roles of a vita barb and a str barb are not the same ones. The one being the best in 1v1 might not be the most useful in mass PVP, and in this case it would almost be the same as comparing two different classes.

Let's take another example now even if this is just theory. Take two wizzies with exact same gears except that one is sharded with sapphire (only theory) and the other one with garnets. Who would have the best chance to win if they fight each other ? Now let them fight against a sin ? You got my point ?

Another thing, you're not supposed to do the same things against each opponent like a robot. You're supposed to adapt and if you know your opponent it's a great advantage. This is why, in my opinion, you can't for example say "who's the best psychic ?", because maybe one is very good when facing sins but very weak when facing mystics while maybe another one is only good against mystics or against other psychics


But well maybe too much off topic today for me, so I stop here

Maybe I have too high expectations on anyone. Sure some are better then others depending on the situation but tbh a good player for me, is one that is always good in any situation. And ofc if I say some ppl of the same class fight I mean under equal terms and not under a heavy special disadvantage for one. All same gears + refines + shards + passives/skills w/e.

But I kinda see where you all are coming from. It's obvious xDD You always talk about fully buffed situations and tbh that is what destroys PvP and shifts anything to a nasty direction. PPL can take way too many dmg being fully buffed even if they are not designed this way. Even the ppl on pservers fight self buffed only in mass PvP situations and I prefer that very much.

I totally say buffs are a waste and blurr the whole PvPing in this game. That way classes wont have a weak spot (like sins/Archer/Psys) cuz they got amazing survivability even tho their class isnt designed to have these buffs. they rely on the strenght of other classes buffs...is that really the point you guys wanna hang onto? You should be able to see how blurred that is and why I'm fighting this buff **** ever since I went white.

Selfbuffed...xD Sins like trinity die 2 hit from me. I even hit preist for 17k once being full josd (that wasnt even with tangling mire and PA). OFC your debuffs will be way less effective when hitting on fully buffed targets ._. man Hot you could have said that (and I was wodnering where you get these redicolous low dmg numbers from).

I agree on buffs in TW where only the victory matters...but nw and open PvP...no way. That gives all ppl an unfair advantage and depending on which class you fight, those a huge disadvantage cuz you are just neglecting their debuffs.

I still would be more then happy if PWI would remove the buff pills from the game entirely even tho I earn loads of money with them =P

XXHotXx - Morai

nope i believe pwi should modify the debuffs mechanic to consider the global value and not just the base res value

indeed i'll open a diff thread about it right now

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Did you even bother to read my post? Or did you just assume that I was QQing about barbs, because I hardly even mentioned them in my post at all, I was talking about the BM paralyze mostly, Also I can't believe you called a class that has tidal protection vulnerable lmfao.



A sarcastic response to what? Me expressing my thoughts on an issue that is being talked about in this thread? I was hardly mean or unjustified in my response. I really don't understand why you guys feel the need to lash out with something like sarcasm, it's honestly the lowest form of humor by far.
Also baked salmon sounds yummy, I'm glad you didn't eat your keyboard, that didn't sound very pleasant in the slightest.

And here I thought your remark to me about hoping I enjoy eating my keyboard was sarcasm, aka as you put it 'the lowest form of humor by far'. Well excuse me zzzzzzzzz.

Joe - Morai

XXHotXx - Morai wrote: »

nope i believe pwi should modify the debuffs mechanic to consider the global value and not just the base res value

indeed i'll open a diff thread about it right now

DONT xDD They wont overthrow the whole game mechanics because of it xD we should simple stick to self buffs and all our troubles are gone (:

Colum - Raging Tide

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Barbs have an aoe stun, I mean you can't get much more OP than that, you also have speed that allows you to catch up to kiting targets along with numerous ways to keep someone from getting away, you're hardly lacking. You're not a CC class you're a Tank, your purpose isn't to lock people down.

Using Untamed Wrath as an example here is cracking me up.

Untamed Wrath

Range　10 meters
Mana　400
Channel　1.0　second
Cast　1.5　seconds
Cooldown　60.0　seconds
Chi Gained　30
Weapon　Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer

Required Cultivation　Aware of Vacuity
Let rip with a tremendous roar of hatred and
wrath, stunning all enemies within 15 meters for
2 seconds, and significantly increasing your threat.

Do I need to say more?

Zheii - Archosaur

Kiymori - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And here I thought your remark to me about hoping I enjoy eating my keyboard was sarcasm, aka as you put it 'the lowest form of humor by far'. Well excuse me zzzzzzzzz.

It wasn't sarcasm xD, It's not my place to judge what you want to eat, whatever floats your boat dude.

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Using Untamed Wrath as an example here is cracking me up.

Untamed Wrath

Range　10 meters
Mana　400
Channel　1.0　second
Cast　1.5　seconds
Cooldown　60.0　seconds
Chi Gained　30
Weapon　Axe, Poleaxe, Hammer or Polehammer

Required Cultivation　Aware of Vacuity
Let rip with a tremendous roar of hatred and
wrath, stunning all enemies within 15 meters for
2 seconds, and significantly increasing your threat.

Do I need to say more?

Never underestimate how much 2 seconds can change a battle.
Also if you'd read my later posts you'd have understood why I used that as an example, for a seeker any stun is either chance or high cost, I mean you gain 30chi for that stun! For a stun 2 seconds longer than that it costs me 1 whole spark, and it's also only single target, you're not so hard done by that you should be defending yourself to such a degree x.x.

Colum - Raging Tide

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

Never underestimate how much 2 seconds can change a battle.
Also if you'd read my later posts you'd have understood why I used that as an example, for a seeker any stun is either chance or high cost, I mean you gain 30chi for that stun! For a stun 2 seconds longer than that it costs me 1 whole spark, and it's also only single target, you're not so hard done by that you should be defending yourself to such a degree x.x.

Pay attention to the casting time. A barbarian alone cannot get any "real" advantage from using this skill, they will need someone else to do the killing job while people are stunned unless your purpose is to only interrupt.

Chi is sure nice, we get it from demon slam too. b:cute

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

It wasn't sarcasm xD, It's not my place to judge what you want to eat, whatever floats your boat dude.



Never underestimate how much 2 seconds can change a battle.
Also if you'd read my later posts you'd have understood why I used that as an example, for a seeker any stun is either chance or high cost, I mean you gain 30chi for that stun! For a stun 2 seconds longer than that it costs me 1 whole spark, and it's also only single target, you're not so hard done by that you should be defending yourself to such a degree x.x.

I wonder how is can 4s be 2s longer than 3s that's odd. Assuming you're sage (like, the rest of the seekers) voidstep does 4s stun, but it has advantages:
- Cooldown is way shorter than Shadow Teleport.
- It teleports you to 'inside' your target.
- It is 100% chance to stun.
- Range is 35 meters.
- It has NO channeling cast times.

The disadvantages on it are clear: 1 spark cost (for a class that barely relies on chi/spark), long cooldown.

Now for barbarians mighty swing:
- If it doesn't stun, causes a freeze instead (Target can attack, but 100% chance target won't move)
- Spammable
- No chi cost.
- If stun does not land, freeze effect applied cannot be blocked.
- It is 100% accuracy.

Disadvantages are also clear:
- Has a chance to actually stun. 50% or 60%
- If target is frozen instead of stunned, they'll have 4s able to use skills and other 1 to 2 seconds able to both use skills and move before you can use it again. I'm not sure if can Quid Pro Quo transfer its freeze back.
- You must be in human form (thus speed, 35% hp bonus, 90% pdef bonuses are lost)
- Its range is the same as melee attacks (thus, at most 3.5 meters)
- It has a casting time of 0.9s, means from 4s freeze/stun barb takes only 3s advantage.

Now, if we look at Seeker Vs Barb, all other barb skills will be very likely to miss (unless you're fighting a Strength/fist-built no-vit barbarian, while seeker's magical skills both hit very hard on the barbarian and never misses (even harder if zerkcrit)

Barbs do much less damage to seekers than the other way around, you're either undergeared or underskilled.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Holy ****, do i understand it right and is zheii trying to compare voidstep to untamed wrath and make untamed wrath look good ? b:laugh

Thats just hahahahahahahaha, i want to trade skills with you any day. And id give up a lot more than just untamed wrath if i could then get voidstep instead

I will never forget the day i was on my 77 seeker in FC. Never really having played the seeker that was only for zhenning and waiting for everyone to be ready for the mobs thingy, i was looking at what skills i actually had and stumbled upon voidstep. "Hey that looks nice for pvp" I select some random lvl 85 dude in squad to duel. Voidstep - blade afinity (the only skill i was familiar with besides vortex) - smash keyboard - dead enemy. Thats when i figured why seekers were considered OP and super easy to play.

Zanryu - Lothranis

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I wonder how is can 4s be 2s longer than 3s that's odd. Assuming you're sage (like, the rest of the seekers) voidstep does 4s stun, but it has advantages:
- Cooldown is way shorter than Shadow Teleport.
Thanks for establishing that we're comparing Seeker to Sin in this case I suppose.
- It teleports you to 'inside' your target.
So do both Assassin teleports.
- It is 100% chance to stun.
So is Shadow Teleport.
- Range is 35 meters.
So is Shadow Teleport.
- It has NO channeling cast times.
The same applies to, you guessed it, Shadow Teleport.

The only advantage Voidstep has over Shadow Teleport is the cooldown and a second longer stun if the Assassin is Sage.

The disadvantages on it are clear: 1 spark cost (for a class that barely relies on chi/spark), long cooldown.


Now for barbarians mighty swing:
- If it doesn't stun, causes a freeze instead (Target can attack, but 100% chance target won't move)
- Spammable
- No chi cost.
- If stun does not land, freeze effect applied cannot be blocked.
- It is 100% accuracy.

Disadvantages are also clear:
- Has a chance to actually stun. 50% or 60%
- If target is frozen instead of stunned, they'll have 4s able to use skills and other 1 to 2 seconds able to both use skills and move before you can use it again. I'm not sure if can Quid Pro Quo transfer its freeze back.
It does.
- You must be in human form (thus speed, 35% hp bonus, 90% pdef bonuses are lost)
I wouldn't consider it a loss as Tiger Form is optional, and is mainly used when needed to tank or use a Tiger Skill. Most Barbarians do their 1v1ing in stand up form for the most part.
- Its range is the same as melee attacks (thus, at most 3.5 meters)
That's not a disadvantage considering every other melee skill of every other melee class is in the same boat.
- It has a casting time of 0.9s, means from 4s freeze/stun barb takes only 3s advantage.
It's a skill that never misses. With a high chance to paralyze. With no cost. If it fails, it freezes the target for a large duration of the cooldown. This is how the skill use goes.

>Miteh swugnz
V

Paralyze Freeze
V V
Have your way Hit them and wait on cooldown

It never misses so one of those will always happen unless they have anti stun up, and if it gets the paralyze you're stuck there anyway. There is no disadvantage this skill has that it doesn't more than make up for.

Now, if we look at Seeker Vs Barb, all other barb skills will be very likely to miss (unless you're fighting a Strength/fist-built no-vit barbarian, while seeker's magical skills both hit very hard on the barbarian and never misses (even harder if zerkcrit)

The thing is, while Barbarians will be taking higher numbers, their HP pool is much higher as well. It isn't about the numbers, it's about the %. In a lot of cases the Barb's gonna be losing effectively less of their life than another class they're fighting because of the sheer amount of HP they can have while also being able to hit hard.

Barbs do much less damage to seekers than the other way around, you're either undergeared or underskilled.

She's got pretty decent gear bro.

wow such red

very reply

many typing

Kiymori - Heavens Tear

Zheii - Archosaur wrote: »

It wasn't sarcasm xD, It's not my place to judge what you want to eat, whatever floats your boat dude.



Never underestimate how much 2 seconds can change a battle.
Also if you'd read my later posts you'd have understood why I used that as an example, for a seeker any stun is either chance or high cost, I mean you gain 30chi for that stun! For a stun 2 seconds longer than that it costs me 1 whole spark, and it's also only single target, you're not so hard done by that you should be defending yourself to such a degree x.x.

Obvious lie is obvious. But I wont debate that with youb:shutup.

Joe - Morai

OK the whole Mighty Swing thing is kinda getting old lately. That is just one of the 3 new OP skills a barb got lately.

Primal/Demon Bestial Onslaught gives 40% crit for 6 seconds with a 8 Second cooldown (crit bonus applies on the attack itself alrdy, as usual). I for on ehave ~80% crit with that, nearly permanent.

Primal Stomp of the Beast king is the most OP skill barbs got with the new update by far. Did you guys even notice what that skill does? Well here I'm going to tell you. Every time the attack lands you get a debuff that causes you to take 8% more skill dmg and it stacks up to 5 times...letting you get 40% more dmg from all skills that are pounding your way. That amazing skill comes with a 3s Cooldown and is 100% Accu in the demon Version. You need ~20 seconds to built up 5 hits against melee targets and average stuns and stuff. and ofc it will stay upon the target if you keep freshing the hits with it but thats going to happen anyways since that skill is pretty fast and very usable.

What should scare ppl the most is the combination of all 3 primal skills (sunder is great too, but mostly for PvE). A Barb that deals you a flat 40% more dmg overall with 70-80% crit all the time + the chance to paralyze for 4s every 6 seconds is what should you guys get creeped out. Its not Mighty swing alone that tears ppl apart. Stomp is far more OP if you ask me.

On the other hand there are also loads of +cough fail cough+ sage barbs that cant take that much of an advantage from the new skills as it was always obvious that demon barbs are by far superior in terms of killing and DDing then sage ones (although that gap kinda got a bit shortened with the focus on skill use only especially since the CD and Channel time for all primal skills are the same now).

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Seekers are almost as resistant as barbs @Zanryu - Lothranis, lets not forget they have constant 30+ def lvls perma on there. Them seekers hit very hard with mag skills (even more with zerkcrits), which never misses, while barbs have a serious problem of blindness, being able to armagemiss casters @_@

Really, this skill is ok in the hands of normal average barbs, you may call it "OP" in the hands of dex-built barbs who can deal a decent amount of damage (and actually hit) in those 4 seconds.

As the guy said above, other barb skills might be considered OP too, so can Primal Swirling Mist and Redstone Venomworm, Chill of the Deep and ALMOST every other primal skill. (Except psychic's, psy's primals are pretty lame...)