bm class made weaker?

Infernia - Harshlands

Ohaider - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No im sorry, your argument is stupid, 70 bm can kill a 70 cleric sure...a 105 bm CAN NOT kill anything 101 w/r9 or even nirvana in some cases now. And you obviously didn't notice but i was not saying you should kill a Wizard with gush, im saying the effectiveness of that is comparable to a blademasters ability to kill other classes with equivalent gear

Level 105 BM cand kill a level 105 Wizard both in R9 gear 7/10 mate. You just suck / dont know what apoth to use when.

And you obviously didnt get it when I pointed out the logical route to killing my target. My route involved no channel cancelling, which was the entire point of my comment. If you cant kill without cancelling your skills, you cant kill without abusing a pice of poor programming. Therefore, you suck at your BM. You are however pro at timing an exploit however, congratulations.

Infernia - Harshlands

Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »

bms role in tw and 1v1 pvp is very different. I'm more referring to 1v1 pvp or even smallish group pvp.



I'm sorry but pserver, most don't even have TB anyway. If you didn't find the need to cc dbb it's because you never played bm to it's full potential and you were most likely ignorant to what a skilled bm can actually pull off.

We did not involve the tideborn in this argument, its an entirely different argument you have there.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Anyone else like how some of these idiots think they know how to play a BM and how the class works even though they're totally clueless? 'Cause seriously.. it's getting annoying, people that don't know about the class shouldn't be telling us to learn to stunlock and to just let the buff cast or to just spark on our targets then stunlock.... it doesn't work like that.

Get the **** out, unless you've played a BM at end game (no, not fought a BM.. PLAYED one) and understand how the class works... your opinion is totally invalid on this subject. The fact is that without crit/fire glitching BMs suffer a massive disadvantage in PvP. We can't hold you past the full duration of Expel unless we get lucky and have both Roar and Occult waiting for it, which... honestly.. just doesn't happen in some cases. We can't magically keep you in place forever if you've got a stun resist/break skill on your genie or stun resist apo/skills. We can't just triple spark and expect you to hold still.

I'm getting sick of explaining it, so seriously.. all of you arcanes that think you know anything about BM PvP when you don't.. just stop. Seriously.

truekossy

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Anyone else like how some of these idiots think they know how to play a BM and how the class works even though they're totally clueless? 'Cause seriously.. it's getting annoying, people that don't know about the class shouldn't be telling us to learn to stunlock and to just let the buff cast or to just spark on our targets then stunlock.... it doesn't work like that.

Get the **** out, unless you've played a BM at end game (no, not fought a BM.. PLAYED one) and understand how the class works... your opinion is totally invalid on this subject. The fact is that without crit/fire glitching BMs suffer a massive disadvantage in PvP. We can't hold you past the full duration of Expel unless we get lucky and have both Roar and Occult waiting for it, which... honestly.. just doesn't happen in some cases. We can't magically keep you in place forever if you've got a stun resist/break skill on your genie or stun resist apo/skills. We can't just triple spark and expect you to hold still.

I'm getting sick of explaining it, so seriously.. all of you arcanes that thing you know anything about BM PvP when you don't.. just stop. Seriously.

+ friggin 1


All these people who have no bloody clue how the class plays at endgame acting like they know **** is getting beyond stupid.

Zankanto - Sanctuary

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm getting sick of explaining it, so seriously.. all of you arcanes that thing you know anything about BM PvP when you don't.. just stop. Seriously.

All they think we are is just: LOLSTUNLOCKHF5APS

Pytharia - Lost City

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

We did not involve the tideborn in this argument, its an entirely different argument you have there.

how is it a different argument? i merely pointed that fact out then i went on to say you're ignorance about bm's potential is funny and i wasn't including the TB on that part.

Ohaider - Dreamweaver

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

Level 105 BM cand kill a level 105 Wizard both in R9 gear 7/10 mate. You just suck / dont know what apoth to use when.

And you obviously didnt get it when I pointed out the logical route to killing my target. My route involved no channel cancelling, which was the entire point of my comment. If you cant kill without cancelling your skills, you cant kill without abusing a pice of poor programming. Therefore, you suck at your BM. You are however pro at timing an exploit however, congratulations.

Sorry but unless your the stupidest wizzard in the game, A blademaster wont kill you.

Nael - Dreamweaver

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

Im not a troll. Channel cancelling is abuse of a bug. You dont get the effects of steroids if you put the needle in but dont actually push the plunger down, you shouldnt get the buff if you dont complete the skill.

What you want, is a seperate skill that will grant the effect for free. No, no thank you, you can learn to kill without abusing broken mechanics thank you.

How about you roll a BM and then talk, hm? We'll see how you like having more than half of your skill arsenal be useless. Any competent player with half working brain should know how to break out of Stunlock, which is BM's only real weapon.

But oh, "true skillful" BMs bleed enemies and kite them until they die, amirite? Such as that epic pro lvl 6x BM that starts with Y and ends with k.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

BM is the most complicated class.

nuffsaid

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

Level 105 BM cand kill a level 105 Wizard both in R9 gear 7/10 mate. You just suck / dont know what apoth to use when.

And you obviously didnt get it when I pointed out the logical route to killing my target. My route involved no channel cancelling, which was the entire point of my comment. If you cant kill without cancelling your skills, you cant kill without abusing a pice of poor programming. Therefore, you suck at your BM. You are however pro at timing an exploit however, congratulations.

Rank 9 is terrible on a BM. Thats why a full rank 9 bm can't kill a full rank 9 wiz.

if the bm has a rank 9 chest and boots, the rest are int gear, they can definitley kill a wiz.

I don't think a wiz could even scratch a true endgame bm with 15k magic def, 15k hp and 60 defense level. Unless they are +12 rank 9.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

I know how to merch. You are talking against your own case. With merchant there's even less need for farming. So 5 APS in PvE does... what again?

TT isn't the only way to farm, anyway I thought I said PvE. Then you brought up TT, So I said learn to merch.. Aha you know how to merch, now you can spend your time doing PvE... BH bosses for lowbies, grind OHT, whatever you like, and TW on the weekend, still needed there for sure.
'

My real point is that all of you BM are over reacting. Did I ever ask or even expect this would be fixed? No. Now that it is, do I think it's a huge deal? No.. Seriously if you want fire buff, use apoc.

I am however happy that sins have to use 2 spark for power dash. Not that it makes a huge difference either.

Pytharia - Lost City

In reality i just find it kinda humorous that of everything else, literally EVERYTHING they decide to "fix" this. I'm pretty sure nobody has ever complained about this being a problem. When they try to fix things they fail. I can see why they don't wanna try to fix other stuff now.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

TT isn't the only way to farm, anyway I thought I said PvE. Then you brought up TT, So I said learn to merch.. Aha you know how to merch, now you can spend your time doing PvE... BH bosses for lowbies, grind OHT, whatever you like, and TW on the weekend, still needed there for sure.
'

My real point is that all of you BM are over reacting. Did I ever ask or even expect this would be fixed? No. Now that it is, do I think it's a huge deal? No.. Seriously if you want fire buff, use apoc.

I am however happy that sins have to use 2 spark for power dash. Not that it makes a huge difference either.

Read my sig, that was the best way to make money. Not anymore because the "lemon" price is way to high now.

Aubree - Dreamweaver

Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »

In reality i just find it kinda humorous that of everything else, literally EVERYTHING they decide to "fix" this. I'm pretty sure nobody has ever complained about this being a problem. When they try to fix things they fail. I can see why they don't wanna try to fix other stuff now.

We also don't know what they complained about on Chinese servers. However I am betting it was all the qq sin threads that led to it. I would have loved for other things to be fixed, such as mag resist buff being able to be renewed.

@Arch

Huh?

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

We also don't know what they complained about on Chinese servers. However I am betting it was all the qq sin threads that led to it. I would have loved for other things to be fixed, such as mag resist buff being able to be renewed.

@Arch

Huh?

Lemons = Gold
Lemonade = your investment
Lemonade stand = catshop

duhh

Aubree - Dreamweaver

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lemons = Gold
Lemonade = your investment
Lemonade stand = catshop

.duhh

Think you missed my point. But anyway it's known that PWI is trying to get rid of farming in game. My point was PvE vs. PvP classes. Not money making ability.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Too bad the formula that everyone was using was for EHP when taking into account amplified damage, because it is assuming extra opponent attack levels as just that. You wouldn't use that formula for def levels higher than attack level would you?

This is because def levels do not directly reduce damage taken like Invoke or other turtle buffs do, or you'd have R9 white voodoo psys crystal walk in TW. If you had 100 def levels you don't take no damage...This is why there were 2 separate formulas for

atk lvl > def lvl

and

def lvl > atk lvl

...we damage tested this ingame with Psys and confirmed that higher atk level than def level is a direct amp, whereas higher def lvl than atk lvl made a nonlinear curve approaching ~45% as def level approached 100. (not 50%, 45%) That is why there were 2 formulas you dolt, and that is why no one in that thread agreed with you. Again, here's a bucket for you if you need to **** bricks.

\_/

Def level reduces damage by 1% of the current incomeing damage based on phys def mag def and current def level directly as an exponentialy decreasing function similar to compound interest. 1 def level with 0 phys and mag def no attack levels from the oponent and no existing def levels = 1% damage reduction the calc and formula show it as otherwise. In other words effective hp gained from each def level is.

In other words to find the hp any given def level will give in addition to your current effective hp ignoreing phys/mag def you would use an exponential function. The Def level info given at low levels in asterelles calc is off simply because its based on a linear function.

For Def level vs attack level I already did that math in the thread we're discussing. If attack > def its treated as a debuff on hp aka 100 attack = 2x damage or a 50% hp reduction Def level is applied to this as a reduction of the debuff.

In other words ((attack level-def level/100)xbase hp. This lines up nicely with the vit stone formula of (class vit gain x 10/attack level multiplier)

Combined you get your formula for effective hp not takeing resists into account when def level < attack level

(base hp + (class vit gain x 10))((attack level-def level)/100)

Note than both formulas are based on absolute reduction compareign only your effective hp. Not you opponents damage cut (a relative concept that has no place in any effective hp calc as effective hp is based on absolute values) Or in other words Ast is treating a limited function as absolute and is multiplying 1/x with 1/y without finding a common denominator.

I had the real def level > attack formula on my old compy but that died months ago, and i dont feel like doing calculus on my one week off school. So ya work it out yourself oh archer math pro.
Oh and based on asterelles formula for attack > def attack would have diminised returns due to a lower relative % damage boost per attack level.

Conversions between intentionaly flawed ast math and real formulas are in the old thread theres is a 1% range of error due to rounding. So they are accurate.

If your to lazy to go do the math given the base formulas and info here i'll just consider you to be some illiterate who cant post an idea of its own. If you keep useign the formulas i find to be flawed as a counterarguement it turns into a totaly mature NO U fest. Put simply I've never seen you post an original idea or do anything aside from follow Ast around like a little lost puppy. Even in the bm forum Saku, Okeano, and I will disagree drasticly at times over a bit of math or a build setup. I bring up the bow because again, i dont consider you so much a person as a tumor on the asses of the other eliteist posers of the archer forum. Untill you can think of an idea or stand on your own 2 feet i'm done with you.

Quilue - Sanctuary

No, that's simply not how def level works. 1 def level doesn't reduce incoming damage by 1%. The curve is close for low amounts of def levels, but it's not linear, and you would see a break from that as def level difference got higher. Like I said. You can talk out of your *** all you want, but we've damage tested this about half a year ago.

For Atk lvl > Def lvl you already did the math that people agreed was wrong. Stop talking about that already. Attack lvl difference does not correspond to a straight percent decrease in EHP, it's increase in damage taken similar to how you'd calculate a veno Amp.

and what is this?

"attack level-def level/100" solely based on "100 attack = 2x damage or a 50% hp reduction"

???

What the **** is going on?

That's like saying 2^3 = 6 based on 2^2 = 4...

Adroit - Lost City

@Joshcja - After your post including your personal opinions about everyone that disagrees with you, I figured I'd add in my own about you. You like to pretend you have some math background, throw around vocab that you obviously don't understand.. and are often flat out wrong. You aren't nearly as knowledgeable as you like to think you are, but you'll defend any point to your grave once you've taken a stand. Just my 2 cents b:victory

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, that's simply not how def level works. 1 def level doesn't reduce incoming damage by 1%. The curve is close for low amounts of def levels, but it's not linear, and you would see a break from that as def level difference got higher. Like I said. You can talk out of your *** all you want, but we've damage tested this about half a year ago.

You really cant read can you.

@ adroit: Last i checked a machinist dual majoring in physics and mechanical engineering is somone with a "math background"

Infernia - Harshlands

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really cant read can I?.

fix'd

Also, im done with the argument btw. You lost your exploit, accept it or quit.

Adroit - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

You really cant read can you.

@ adroit: Last i checked a machinist dual majoring in physics and mechanical engineering is somone with a "math background"

If you had a 1.0 gpa I might believe you.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

fix'd

Also, im done with the argument btw. You lost your exploit, accept it or quit.

*facepalm*

Look, another special who has no idea how the bm class works and yet feels a need to comment.

Even your butt buddy adroit there can see how this is a huge gimp on the class.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Let's put it this way.

If I have a basket of 5 apples, and I take an apple each time, can we say the EHP of the basket is 5?

Suppose I now take 1 and a quarter apples each time, (so like 25 attack levels), how many "grabs" does it take to finish off the basket?

Is it 5/(1+0.25) = 4

or

is it 5*((100-25)/100) = 3.75

Has the grab size increased by 25%, or has the freaking basket decreased by 25%??

OK smart boy in Engineering, draw them apples out and figure this out. I want to see them AutoCAD diagrams.


Edit: WOAH I just realized that you probably didn't mean this:

((attack level-def level)/100)

So if someone has 100 extra attack levels, EHP = HP * 1? Maybe you left a 100 somewhere, I'll put that into my example.

Pytharia - Lost City

Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »

fix'd

Also, im done with the argument btw. You lost your exploit, accept it or quit.

i'm not backing up josh or the others in this argument but why are you trying to get involved? If you're not gonna contribute to the argument then why post? you obviously don't know what they're talking about, and why are you in this thread? you proved you know nothing about bms with your post. You have a level 70 bm and a so called bm on a pserver, and you said you've never saw the need to use DBB and used AA classes as an example.

And btw isn't their a confirmed formula?

if (attack level > defense level) then:
damage taken = { damage delivered * ( 1 + ({ attack level } - { defense level }) / 100 ) }
if (attack level < defense level) then:
damage taken = { damage delivered / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({ defense level } - { attack level }) / 100 ) ) }

Infernia - Harshlands

Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »

i'm not backing up josh or the others in this argument but why are you trying to get involved? If you're not gonna contribute to the argument then why post? you obviously don't know what they're talking about, and why are you in this thread? you proved you know nothing about bms with your post. You have a level 70 bm and a so called bm on a pserver, and you said you've never saw the need to use DBB and used AA classes as an example.

Im commenting out of boredom. Also because josh is the sort of person who annoys the **** out of me, because its all unfair to him and noone can argue against the fact. I used arcane classes to argue only when he did.

True, I never really saw the use for DBB, because I tended to never need it. Being able to use it to bypass expel is a great use, and to be perfectly honest, I think that the spark cost is a little mean at 2 sparks. But, its gone, and it will not concern me a great deal whatsoever.

Make a Wizard on another account. Get it to 92 and make it learn Demon Frostblade if you have that large a desire to have elemental damage. Or shard an elemental Gem. The lack of even the CC delay wil probably make up for the rest of the damage. Or apoth pots, which last a full 2 minutes anyway. (Admittedly costing you the use of Ironguard/purify/Dew pots, but hella pr0 BM doesnt need that right? b:chuckle)

Attack rate? Get better gearz, use genie skillz or the buff pots. (I do believe the atk rate buff pots curse you however....?)

Again, exploit gone = take it or quit.

Pytharia - Lost City

I'm surprised your pserver isn't dominated by R9(or R8) wizards/psy (if theirs TB) and if not then the point your making is invalid because you wouldn't have been in the same conditions. Usually in pservers wizards dominate anyway because their crazy nuke 1 hits. Unless your pserver messed with hp and that stuff in which again your point will be invalid.

Infernia - Harshlands

Pytharia - Lost City wrote: »

I'm surprised your pserver isn't dominated by R9(or R8) wizards/psy (if theirs TB) and if not then the point your making is invalid because you wouldn't have been in the same conditions. Usually in pservers wizards dominate anyway because their crazy nuke 1 hits. Unless your pserver messed with hp and that stuff in which again your point will be invalid.

Said PServer has godstones (20vit) but we limited ourselves to what was possible here. We use that server occasionally to explore what we wish to do here or to have some equal levelled fun for a while. (She has a +10/11 4APS SageWep Demon Sin with a little under 10k HP. I have a +3-6 Sage sin with barely 5k HP b:cry I still win occasionally tho. Landing that 12k PowerDash - Wolf - HeadHunt(crit) combo really breaks some bones ya know b:cool).

On that server archers dominate like hell.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Let's put it this way.

If I have a basket of 5 apples, and I take an apple each time, can we say the EHP of the basket is 5?

Suppose I now take 1 and a quarter apples each time, (so like 25 attack levels), how many "grabs" does it take to finish off the basket?

Is it 5/(1+0.25) = 4

or

is it 5*(25/100) = 5/4

same damn thing

Everyone uses the same absolute attack level formula again I dont have a problem with Asts Attack > Def formula at its base however he likes to manipulate it to show relative def vs absolute hp. That and the way his def level scales at extremly early and late values are what i have issues with, not the base math of the attack vs def.

Again and for the last time go look in the old thread. The fact that I can convert between the final answers of both formulas with such a small margin of error can be considered proof that both formulas are correct, the issues is that relative loss gain is already in the formula in the form in the attack level multiplier. In the thread Ast goes on to convert again to find the attackers damage rather than the absolute def gain.

Absolute = equation based off of the gain/loss from the base hp (aka you gain 10 attack levels from a base of 190 you now deal 10% more base damage)
Relative = equation based off the percentage gain/loss from a shifting standpoint (aka you have 200 attack levels you lose 10 this is a 3.33% damage cut)

Saying well you get a 10% gain from those attack levels but if somone shards def they only get a 3.33% reduction IS true, however its also missleading because absolute and realtive terms were mixed.

endlesstorture

WHO CARES ABOUT BM.. YOUR STILL THE 2nd BEST DD in the GAME. STOP COMPLAINING. YOUR THE SAME CLASS U WERE BEFORE.