bm class made weaker?

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Cheze's archer is on DW and I don't think he ever had anything more than vit sharded TT99 / Rank 8 armor on it. I doubt g12 armor is sufficient to solo Harpy without a cleric even with sage damage reduction.

It's something I might try sometime. I've done duo with cleric before but charm tanking could get pretty rough lol. Would be easy if archers could get BP.

:O....

If you ever do try I will stand back....like way back....and cheer for you in a sexy outfit

*\o/* go ast go

What of those g15 claws with revenge proc? I have seen them and I wonder how they would perform in such situations where us archers lack the great aid of bp :<

Joshcja - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

:O....

If you ever do try I will stand back....like way back....and cheer for you in a sexy outfit

*\o/* go ast go

What of those g15 claws with revenge proc? I have seen them and I wonder how they would perform in such situations where us archers lack the great aid of bp :<

10% proc rate at 5% hp per proc on revenge vengance claws, so an average of 2.5% max hp healed per second. Blood vengance would be a 5% per second heal. Not enough to complety make up for the lack of BP but still a lot of healing.

the more you know.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

10% proc rate at 5% hp per proc on revenge vengance claws, so an average of 2.5% max hp healed per second. Blood vengance would be a 5% per second heal. Not enough to complety make up for the lack of BP but still a lot of healing.

the more you know.

BP + Blood Vengeace = sex b:dirty

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

All I see is "Glitching is the only way I can get a kill" throughout this entire thread.

TheDan - Sanctuary

I really doubt an archer could truly 'solo' Harpy wraith, not even at full +12; it just simply hits like a truck, even against 40K phys def BMs. Maybe if it were possible to be a sage r9 5.0 +12, but I'm pretty sure you'd only be a 4.0 r9 sage without that interval chestplate.

As a BM with high refined armors and orns, I'm getting close to 40K phys def with phys marrow and the major buffs from base, and have over 20K HP. When Harpy has around 50% HP left, it does the HF drake bash emote on top of the glacial spike debuffs, hitting my BM for 12K when my phys def charms are in cooldown, and if not careful, can easily bypass charm tick. I could only imagine how much it would hit an archer for, even at full +12. If it isn't immediately purified, or immune potted through, it's GG lol.

Archers don't really get bloodpaint or any of the OP skills sins have like deaden nerves and tidal protection. WoG not sure if that would help much.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really doubt an archer could truly 'solo' Harpy wraith, not even at full +12.

As a BM with high refined armors and orns, I'm getting close to 40K phys def with phys marrow and the major buffs from base, and have over 20K HP.

When Harpy has around 50% HP left, it does the HF drake bash emote on top of the glacial spike debuffs, hitting my BM for 12K, and if not careful, can easily bypass charm tick. I could only imagine how much it would hit an archer for, even at full +12.

Archers don't really get bloodpaint or any of the OP skills sins have like deaden nerves and tidal protection.

Most of Harpy's strong attacks can be countered with defense charms and you don't have any defense level sharding. Harpy is a level 150 mob which makes defense level sharding more effective than having high pdef.

Also here is what a full +12 R9 archer with JoSD sharding looks like. http://pwcalc.com/f6373f4afd3d2c12

21k HP, 24k Pdef (26K with base buff), 76 Defense level (81 with seeker Krav Maga), 4.0 build with revenge proc.
The defense level alone adds 97% survivability in PVE.
Also you can use the 180% phys marrow pot from the faction base for 30 seconds out of every 2 mins, for the other 90 seconds you'd have to get by on genie skills.
The normal attacks from harpy would hit about 3K against this build and I've soloed bosses that do similar damage uncharmed.

BLOODSUNDER - Archosaur

BombDiggity - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yea since GM's are in Killjoy mode limit fists and claws to BM olny,

scuz me, but bms should get fists, and barbs of course should get claws, rawr!!!!!

And bms should get daggers, i mean really. Blademaster: master of all blades, oh, but not THOSE blades. They is special.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Moadib - Sanctuary wrote: »

I hear the argument.. why not make [an archer][a sin] for [tw][pve] and just use [bm][wizard] for [pve][tw]? why should I have to do that to enjoy [tw][pve]? that alone screams character imbalance.

Shall I sign you up to the wizard petition to nerf 5.0 aps? Because that is EXACTLY what it is like being a wizard with regard to pve content and 1 vs 1 pk the other 5 days of the week.

For someone that is "full g15 nirvana gear with mostly +10 gear", qq'ing about "mediocre" wizards, most of whom have to live with 2 "mediocre" pieces of g12 gear and can't farm coin to nirvana or +10 anything, is rather petty, ijs.

"Mediocre" rank 8 wizards have a good time for MAYBE 2 hours a week, and you shout "imbalance"?!?!?!?!!?

Spare me.

PS - for tw, seekers < BM. BM's at least get to aps barbs, stun, HF. Most seekers i see just run in, whirley aoe and die. We got a bm on our server with gear like yours. She is EPIC in TW. She burns iron guards every 2 minutes, but she rarely dies (compared to other bms) and takes alot of people with her if she does. And don't get me started on rank 9 bms that can 2 shot almost any class with those axes - crit crit dead - crit crit dead.

brent40

lol At useing anything on Archosaur as an example of good or bad.

TigerLily - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

No archers and barbs can both out DD bm's in pve a bm with deicides vs an archer with cubes or Peaces isnt even comperable, and barbs equaly geared and self buffed will out DD a non CCing bm by as much as 4-5% at equal gear. Plus both classes can go 4 item rank 9 for both def and attack level adds for better soloing than bm's

The mass pvp gimp on meles does suck though. Basicly what CC removal did was take our gimp in mass pvp and move it to 1v1 as well.

Archers only have the ability to out DD a BM, doesn't mean they ever do. Only an imbecile would pick Berserk/Frenzied endgame fists over g15 claws with Blood vengeance/Revenge.

Even if BMs could be 5.0 with Frenzied Rage they would still go for Claws with Blood Vengeance because there is no point spending 400-600 mil on a weapon that has no beneficial use. You cant tank with a perma 50% amp in your face and removing the ability to tank profitable bosses pretty much makes a 5.0 char useless. So you're basically saying that archers can out DD a BM if they choose a weapon no one (specially not a BM) would pick in the first place lol.

There is approximately 0-1 archers on LC using G15 fists with Berserk/frenzied, maybe you can find 2 more on some deserted PvE server that never cared about practical use. You talk about tanking Harpy, be sure those archers dint use berserk fists they would go splat as soon as it proc-ed.

Archer at 5.0 using Arch Devils Touch would of course out DD a BM as well, but no one ever crafted the fist Warsoul molder.

Demon venos also have the ability to out DD a BM if they reach 5.0 with genie. But the amount of venos that have the patience to break their fists to 0 dura 5 times a day is about as common as archers using G15 fists with berserk/frenzied.

Barbs with Strength of Titans and Poison Fang will out DD a selfbuffed BM slightly. But 99.99% of BMs can always get full barb buffs by logging their alt or just asking someone.

If you look at the hole picture and not specific situations a BM is the second best DD after Assassins. Both my Barb, Sin, Archer and Veno can equip gear for 5.0 and the BM outshines everyone but the Sin. I do agree that removing the ability to CC for BMs is stupid and it pisses me of to, but saying BM is the worst 5.0 class is not really right.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Archers only have the ability to out DD a BM, doesn't mean they ever do. Only an imbecile would pick Berserk/Frenzied endgame fists over g15 claws with Blood vengeance/Revenge.

Even if BMs could be 5.0 with Frenzied Rage they would still go for Claws with Blood Vengeance because there is no point spending 400-600 mil on a weapon that has no beneficial use. You cant tank with a perma 50% amp in your face and removing the ability to tank profitable bosses pretty much makes a 5.0 char useless. So you're basically saying that archers can out DD a BM if they choose a weapon no one (specially not a BM) would pick in the first place lol.

There is approximately 0-1 archers on LC using G15 fists with Berserk/frenzied, maybe you can find 2 more on some deserted PvE server that never cared about practical use. You talk about tanking Harpy, be sure those archers dint use berserk fists they would go splat as soon as it proc-ed.

Archer at 5.0 using Arch Devils Touch would of course out DD a BM as well, but no one ever crafted the fist Warsoul molder.

Demon venos also have the ability to out DD a BM if they reach 5.0 with genie. But the amount of venos that have the patience to break their fists to 0 dura 5 times a day is about as common as archers using G15 fists with berserk/frenzied.

Barbs with Strength of Titans and Poison Fang will out DD a selfbuffed BM slightly. But 99.99% of BMs can always get full barb buffs by logging their alt or just asking someone.

If you look at the hole picture and not specific situations a BM is the second best DD after Assassins. Both my Barb, Sin, Archer and Veno can equip gear for 5.0 and the BM outshines everyone but the Sin. I do agree that removing the ability to CC for BMs is stupid and it pisses me of to, but saying BM is the worst 5.0 class is not really right.

I miss hearing you rant in vent. b:cry

b:dirty

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

brent40 wrote: »

lol At useing anything on Archosaur as an example of good or bad.

I play on sanctuary too. With **** gear on my wizard there i am less afraid of chrisn (who has epic gear) in TW there than I am of mizandry here even with my rank 9/event gear.

Or does noone on sanctuary know how to tw either . . . . .

Fail troll is fail.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I play on sanctuary too. With **** gear on my wizard there i am less afraid of chrisn (who has epic gear) in TW there than I am of mizandry here even with my rank 9/event gear.

Or does noone on sanctuary know how to tw either . . . . .

Fail troll is fail.

Do not judge an entire server's playerbase by one player. But yes, the earlier statement was boneheaded as well.

And I'd just like to say I'm happy to have these forums here , I will never have to do maffs again \o/

brent40

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I play on sanctuary too. With **** gear on my wizard there i am less afraid of chrisn (who has epic gear) in TW there than I am of mizandry here even with my rank 9/event gear.

Or does noone on sanctuary know how to tw either . . . . .

Fail troll is fail.

ANY wiz in sub-par gears would fear her, considering shes applied mastercard to every corner of her character. Not skill. And your sub-par gears hasnt been up close enough to match hers to compare, Skill? Ya may have some, but not very PvPish... PvE server west, and poking eachother isn't a good place to find good assessment on the entire BM class....again Lol.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Most of Harpy's strong attacks can be countered with defense charms and you don't have any defense level sharding. Harpy is a level 150 mob which makes defense level sharding more effective than having high pdef.

Also here is what a full +12 R9 archer with JoSD sharding looks like. http://pwcalc.com/f6373f4afd3d2c12

21k HP, 24k Pdef (26K with base buff), 76 Defense level (81 with seeker Krav Maga), 4.0 build with revenge proc.
The defense level alone adds 97% survivability in PVE.
Also you can use the 180% phys marrow pot from the faction base for 30 seconds out of every 2 mins, for the other 90 seconds you'd have to get by on genie skills.
The normal attacks from harpy would hit about 3K against this build and I've soloed bosses that do similar damage uncharmed.

Okay, I exaggerated about the +12 gear blah blah, but it's not even the gear that I am arguing against; it's moreover the buff disadvantage that makes it nearly impossible for Archers to solo it. The boss hits like a truck when you're HFed and Glacial spiked regardless of what shards and gear you have. Top end gear is pretty much not the determining factor of surviving the boss or not for BMs, Sins, and barbs. It's mostly the bloodpaint heals, phys def charms, 5APS purify, and immune pots that makes surviving it much more plausible.

My point is that without cleric or bloodpaint, Archers are always at a huge disadvantage compared to BMs, sins, and barbs for soloing. BMs, Sins, Barbs as I mentioned don't even have to have half the gear to kill it, simply because of the bloodpaint buff. Top end gear is almost irrelevant under those circumstances was what I was getting at.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Archers only have the ability to out DD a BM, doesn't mean they ever do. Only an imbecile would pick Berserk/Frenzied endgame fists over g15 claws with Blood vengeance/Revenge.

Even if BMs could be 5.0 with Frenzied Rage they would still go for Claws with Blood Vengeance because there is no point spending 400-600 mil on a weapon that has no beneficial use. You cant tank with a perma 50% amp in your face and removing the ability to tank profitable bosses pretty much makes a 5.0 char useless. So you're basically saying that archers can out DD a BM if they choose a weapon no one (specially not a BM) would pick in the first place lol.

When does a BM tank over a sin these days anyways? If theres not a sin well you ahve a cleric right? Those can heal last i checked. May as well max out the damage, many archers shard DoT's in that mentality already. Or if you insist upon a more common example, BM's pay 200-300 mill coin more to hit 5 aps, thats a lot of claw refines.

There is approximately 0-1 archers on LC using G15 fists with Berserk/frenzied, maybe you can find 2 more on some deserted PvE server that never cared about practical use. You talk about tanking Harpy, be sure those archers dint use berserk fists they would go splat as soon as it proc-ed.

Why would an archer tank harpy with berserker fists? They'd be like full JOSD full +12 i think they can afford a set of revenge weapons. Berserker is a 20% amp btw.

Archer at 5.0 using Arch Devils Touch would of course out DD a BM as well, but no one ever crafted the fist Warsoul molder.

That would be why i never mentioned those.

Demon venos also have the ability to out DD a BM if they reach 5.0 with genie. But the amount of venos that have the patience to break their fists to 0 dura 5 times a day is about as common as archers using G15 fists with berserk/frenzied.

150% more weapon damage from spark. Its not even nessecary to enter fox form if the 5 aps build is a HA. (LA will just about break even with only a slight edge on the BM)

Barbs with Strength of Titans and Poison Fang will out DD a selfbuffed BM slightly. But 99.99% of BMs can always get full barb buffs by logging their alt or just asking someone.

Rank 9, +10 attack levels and even buffed the bm will be out DDed. Hell dont even see why you posted that since its been said at least 10 times in thread thus far.

If you look at the hole picture and not specific situations a BM is the second best DD after Assassins. Both my Barb, Sin, Archer and Veno can equip gear for 5.0 and the BM outshines everyone but the Sin. I do agree that removing the ability to CC for BMs is stupid and it pisses me of to, but saying BM is the worst 5.0 class is not really right.

I'm consdiering people who are competent at their classes, idiots never CCed to begin with. Hell any class useing fists over any other weapon IS a specific situation anyways. Any weapon used any armor or sharding change becomes a specific situation. 5 aps builds are entirely gear based thus Its almost impossible to compare the builds on an even gear basis. May as well just look at what the most damage each class can put out w/o going into exotic situations such as warsouls.

So the above classes are either more cost effective than the bm at either hitting 5 aps (archer), or have more effective endgame gear (archers,barbs,sins). The veno build is just an exotic varient you do out of boredom however it does still out DD the bm if built correctly.

PVE wise with a full squad of well played toons the only real benifit of bm's has become bell in farming. Blah blah blah HF. Is great on a boss you'll drop in the dureation of demon Nova or BV+ every other debuff ever anyways. No thats not a special circumstance its damn common for endgame squads. But BV are pricy! No, It costs less than demon HF on most servers.

I refuse to consider no brain spark spammers in any situation simply because they should be booted from squad dragged out back and shot.

Revenge - Raging Tide

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Shall I sign you up to the wizard petition to nerf 5.0 aps? Because that is EXACTLY what it is like being a wizard with regard to pve content and 1 vs 1 pk the other 5 days of the week.

For someone that is "full g15 nirvana gear with mostly +10 gear", qq'ing about "mediocre" wizards, most of whom have to live with 2 "mediocre" pieces of g12 gear and can't farm coin to nirvana or +10 anything, is rather petty, ijs.

"Mediocre" rank 8 wizards have a good time for MAYBE 2 hours a week, and you shout "imbalance"?!?!?!?!!?

Spare me.

PS - for tw, seekers < BM. BM's at least get to aps barbs, stun, HF. Most seekers i see just run in, whirley aoe and die. We got a bm on our server with gear like yours. She is EPIC in TW. She burns iron guards every 2 minutes, but she rarely dies (compared to other bms) and takes alot of people with her if she does. And don't get me started on rank 9 bms that can 2 shot almost any class with those axes - crit crit dead - crit crit dead.

lol? where in this post is there anything about any mediocre wizards? last i checked this was on an endgame/ equivalent to the bm's gear specific. which is 100% right. an equivalently geared wizard can drop a bm a mile away without batting an eye. just a simple fact, due to cheap as hell rank 8/9 being everywhere. stunlocks are extremely easy to avoid with a well timed genie/apoth so those are out of the question and aps wont do jack **** if the opponent has half a brain and stays at range. (which was all said btw).

basically this thread is about the fact that, bm's were at a huge disadvantage 1v1 pk and small group pk before and CC while maybe a glitch or exploit evened the odds out to actually make the bm's stand a chance, but was taken away making things even further unbalanced. (as for pve well, basically bm's get resorted to hf ****** while the sins and/or claw barbs/archers DD away.)

Lu$t - Sanctuary

Demon HF runs 25-35mil
Blood Vow runs 40milish +/-5mil for chrono pages

Demon hf is usually cheaper ;x

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Lu$t - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon HF runs 25-35mil
Blood Vow runs 40milish +/-5mil for chrono pages

Demon hf is usually cheaper ;x

Demon HF used to be 40-50m on my server... now it's 60m at a minimum. I want your server's HF price...

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Okay, I exaggerated about the +12 gear blah blah, but it's not even the gear that I am arguing against; it's moreover the buff disadvantage that makes it nearly impossible for Archers to solo it. The boss hits like a truck when you're HFed and Glacial spiked regardless of what shards and gear you have. Top end gear is pretty much not the determining factor of surviving the boss or not for BMs, Sins, and barbs. It's mostly the bloodpaint heals, phys def charms, 5APS purify, and immune pots that makes surviving it much more plausible.

My point is that without cleric or bloodpaint, Archers are always at a huge disadvantage compared to BMs, sins, and barbs for soloing. BMs, Sins, Barbs as I mentioned don't even have to have half the gear to kill it, simply because of the bloodpaint buff. Top end gear is
almost irrelevant under those circumstances was what I was getting at.

Archers can also use the phys def charms, 5APS purify, and immune pots. The only thing they are missing is bloodpaint. This can be partially compensated somewhat with Revenge claws.

An advantage that archers have though over BMs and sins is the ability to wear -interval G16 R9 armor which they can socket with jades. Although harpy has a pdef debuff, she has no defense level debuff. It shouldn't be too tough for a +12 jade sharded R9 archer to solo.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Lu$t - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon HF runs 25-35mil
Blood Vow runs 40milish +/-5mil for chrono pages

Demon hf is usually cheaper ;x

I saw a demon HF go for 78 mill on WC before i quit

Price was only at the 30 mill range for like 2 weeks.