Tweaked TT Bosses?

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

@ TheDan

I just can agree with Larkray about the Dealt damage / received damage issue.

You wont find ANY source how received damage in game is calculated, so dont start stating you are now the one who EXACTLY knows how it works...
I tried 30min of google, was looking into every source about damage... only thing thats calculated everywhere is the damage you deal.

Also, i would like to know how any barb at starting tt lvls can tank any magic boss if calcs are right.

Refering to TheDan and full buffed +4 barb full sockets, citrines etc...

http://pwcalc.com/cffeb01327066c77

Magic reduction 60%
Hp ~12k

Lets calc on max hit from 1-3 Banisher:

14330*40%=5732

Referring to your logic, hes 70 lvl below:
5732*170%=9744

So, referring to your logic Soulbanisher can virtually 1-shot a 12k hp barb? Well we must have had epic luck back then...

Oh i forgot to say we even did 1-3 with an lvl60 barb.. so would be less hp and 20% more damage again...

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@ TheDan

I just can agree with Larkray about the Dealt damage / received damage issue.

You wont find ANY source how received damage in game is calculated, so dont start stating you are now the one who EXACTLY knows how it works...
I tried 30min of google, was looking into every source about damage... only thing thats calculated everywhere is the damage you deal.

Also, i would like to know how any barb at starting tt lvls can tank any magic boss if calcs are right.

Refering to TheDan and full buffed +4 barb full sockets, citrines etc...

http://pwcalc.com/cffeb01327066c77

Magic reduction 60%
Hp ~12k

Lets calc on max hit from 1-3 Banisher:

14330*40%=5732

Referring to your logic, hes 70 lvl below:
5732*170%=9744

So, referring to your logic Soulbanisher can virtually 1-shot a 12k hp barb? Well we must have had epic luck back then...

Oh i forgot to say we even did 1-3 with an lvl60 barb.. so would be less hp and 20% more damage again...

You aren't supposed to get hit by any magic attacks. b:bye

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

Seems you forgot, so i tell you again, Rawrgh. YOU ARE ON MY IGNORELIST because your posts are absolutely useless.

Go trolling around in other threads, im sick of you posting here.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Obviously not as you bothered to reply to my post.

And I don't give a damn what you're "sick of". Stop acting like a 12 year old.

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

and the next fail post...

TheDan - Sanctuary

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@ TheDan

I just can agree with Larkray about the Dealt damage / received damage issue.

You wont find ANY source how received damage in game is calculated, so dont start stating you are now the one who EXACTLY knows how it works...
I tried 30min of google, was looking into every source about damage... only thing thats calculated everywhere is the damage you deal.

Also, i would like to know how any barb at starting tt lvls can tank any magic boss if calcs are right.

Refering to TheDan and full buffed +4 barb full sockets, citrines etc...

http://pwcalc.com/cffeb01327066c77

Magic reduction 60%
Hp ~12k

Lets calc on max hit from 1-3 Banisher:

14330*40%=5732

Referring to your logic, hes 70 lvl below:
5732*170%=9744

So, referring to your logic Soulbanisher can virtually 1-shot a 12k hp barb? Well we must have had epic luck back then...

Oh i forgot to say we even did 1-3 with an lvl60 barb.. so would be less hp and 20% more damage again...

Seems about right. 9744 damage to a barb without BB effect. That's like 4-5K damage in BB at MAX damage. With Larkray's logic of 10%, that would be 6305 and only 3K at MAX in BB. Rofl, yeah right. So makes your argument null, try again.

I have tanked soulbanisher and have been hit for 6K with 7K mage def without BB. With BB only 3K ish. You're telling me a barb with 4K mage def takes the same damage as my 7K mage def?

You're basically agreeing with a baseless assertion that damage was increased without any real statistical analysis. If and when he decides to post his damage log and proves that the average damage from a large sample size is in fact 1.6K and exceeds 3 standard deviations from the expected average I'll admit I'm wrong.

But until then, this is just more anecdotal evidence. I can also say my average damage received was 1900 too if I decided to ignore the last 98 attacks from the boss too. Asserting that they took an average of 1.6K damage is worthless to me as I don't value it to be objective proof.

Even if damage was tweaked, (which I can bet real life money it wasn't) are you that naive to believe that the bosses are hitting harder even though the source code reflects the bosses having the same damage range as the damage ranges on pwdatabase dating back from rising tide?

b:bye

Endariel - Dreamweaver

Ahem.. said I would run solo squad mode 1-3 banisher and I did but before I post comments and pics on that I have something else to comment about.

Those who have common sense and logical mind are advised to skip next paragraph in order to avoid laughing your teeth out of your eyes.

Rawrgh.. seriously? you aren't supposed to be hit by magical attacks? who in the world are you, Hudini? Universe to Rawrgh, when someone hits you, you get hit. Basic laws of.. oh existance I think, since physics clearly do not apply to magic in your private world. You can avoid certain amount of damage by properly using apoth and skills to interups boss or mobs or resist damage made by attack but avoid magic completely? Please tell me, where were you when the rules of magic were explained? Magic DOES NOT MISS! EVER!! It can be resisted but not avoided. Otherwise sins and archers would be impossible to kill with magic cause they already have have huge evasion to begin with. OH and please tell me how you can solo emperor in 3-2 (chosen on random cause you said you can solo ALL TT and I know for a fact that even 16K hp barbs with 2 cleric healing can die on emperor if he decides to spam AOE for a few and occult ice barb right after clerics die so barb can't invoke). And also, if you think that you know a way to seal off a bosses AOE completely as to "not be hit with magical attacks" please add a videon of how you do that. I would really like to know what with me being a non-ghost player and thus far can't see what skills I need on genie and pet to avoid ALL AOE from bosses.

Ok, end of rant. Sorry about that but some things just **** me off. Avoid getting hit with magic.. right..


Anyway, I promisde screenshots so here are the links (cause no one likes far too large posts with pics). Please note that I did this with barb buff and bm buff (both level 10 I presume, but not sure cuase didn't ask the buffers). Had over 10K hp and over 6K phys def so please remember that when I present the numbers from damage. You can see a barb with me in squad but as he was low level he came only to buff me if barb buff expires and to see me die... I am afraid I disappoined him on that though. He remained out of battle the whole time so in actuality it was indeed a solo run.

Link 1:http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j432/paulorbit/1-31.jpg
In here we see me and damage on me from some moments after AOE started. It hit me for around 1K-2K. Charm ticked occasionally but nothing life threatening.
Link 2:http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j432/paulorbit/1-32.jpg
Here you can see that AOE damage is picking up. 2K-3K on some hits. charm ticking steady now but again, not yet scarry.
Link 3:http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j432/paulorbit/1-33.jpg
As you can see AOE damage is now around 3K+ from each AOE hit with the occasional low damage cause of resists and boss damage range being on the low end of curve. Charm was ticking non-stop now and hp was dropping constantly to start of dangerous levels. Can't show how dangerous cause charm kept ticking as soon as it was refreshed, and I had to spam heal herc so it won't die so was not in position to grab screenshot on time (no, I do not use heal macros on bosses, one interupt and its done, and banisher WAS interupting me occasionaly).

*Now that I have tested soul on solo squad mode, I will get a squad and do him again, this time with squad hitting as well (note I intend to stand out of BB first and than inside to compare damages as well). Will post screenshots of that when can.

I must say that only reason I did not die is because of high HP and great gear. Any AA class that would have tried that in my stead (with lesser gear and less HP obviously, those that have better need not worry) would have had to spam food/pots and tick charm just to stay alive towards the end of the boss, if not just plain out die.

Please note that this was purely to test how hard AOE from banisher hits. I am not a tank class (did say I am AA right?) so can't really say how hard main damage was hitting herc for. I CAN say that with full herc buffs banisher was hitting my 4.5K hp herc for about 1/4 hp at start, 1/3-1/2 hp towards the end. If you want actual numbers you can do math yourselves. Herc is lvl 100 btw so his stats are easy to find from google or forums. As I have no idea how to see damage done to pets (if you know how please tell me, I really want to know, been trying to do that for ages) I can't really tell you proper numbers, just how much of the HP bar on pet was gone with each hit.

I would really appreciate if some pure phys class (like HA BM or Barb) would go and try solo tanking squad 1-3 banisher with same barb and bm buffs as me (lvl 10, no more cause I know for a fact neither barb nor bm were over 89, in fact both were under 80 so yeah..) and please provide screenshots from when you do it.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ahem.. said I would run solo squad mode 1-3 banisher and I did but before I post comments and pics on that I have something else to comment about.

Those who have common sense and logical mind are advised to skip next paragraph in order to avoid laughing your teeth out of your eyes.

Rawrgh.. seriously? you aren't supposed to be hit by magical attacks? who in the world are you, Hudini? Universe to Rawrgh, when someone hits you, you get hit. Basic laws of.. oh existance I think, since physics clearly do not apply to magic in your private world. You can avoid certain amount of damage by properly using apoth and skills to interups boss or mobs or resist damage made by attack but avoid magic completely? Please tell me, where were you when the rules of magic were explained? Magic DOES NOT MISS! EVER!! It can be resisted but not avoided. Otherwise sins and archers would be impossible to kill with magic cause they already have have huge evasion to begin with. OH and please tell me how you can solo emperor in 3-2 (chosen on random cause you said you can solo ALL TT and I know for a fact that even 16K hp barbs with 2 cleric healing can die on emperor if he decides to spam AOE for a few and occult ice barb right after clerics die so barb can't invoke). And also, if you think that you know a way to seal off a bosses AOE completely as to "not be hit with magical attacks" please add a videon of how you do that. I would really like to know what with me being a non-ghost player and thus far can't see what skills I need on genie and pet to avoid ALL AOE from bosses.

Ok, end of rant. Sorry about that but some things just **** me off. Avoid getting hit with magic.. right..


Anyway, I promisde screenshots so here are the links (cause no one likes far too large posts with pics). Please note that I did this with barb buff and bm buff (both level 10 I presume, but not sure cuase didn't ask the buffers). Had over 10K hp and over 6K phys def so please remember that when I present the numbers from damage. You can see a barb with me in squad but as he was low level he came only to buff me if barb buff expires and to see me die... I am afraid I disappoined him on that though. He remained out of battle the whole time so in actuality it was indeed a solo run.

Link 1:http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j432/paulorbit/1-31.jpg
In here we see me and damage on me from some moments after AOE started. It hit me for around 1K-2K. Charm ticked occasionally but nothing life threatening.
Link 2:http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j432/paulorbit/1-32.jpg
Here you can see that AOE damage is picking up. 2K-3K on some hits. charm ticking steady now but again, not yet scarry.
Link 3:http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j432/paulorbit/1-33.jpg
As you can see AOE damage is now around 3K+ from each AOE hit with the occasional low damage cause of resists and boss damage range being on the low end of curve. Charm was ticking non-stop now and hp was dropping constantly to start of dangerous levels. Can't show how dangerous cause charm kept ticking as soon as it was refreshed, and I had to spam heal herc so it won't die so was not in position to grab screenshot on time (no, I do not use heal macros on bosses, one interupt and its done, and banisher WAS interupting me occasionaly).

I must say that only reason I did not die is because of high HP and great gear. Any AA class that would have tried that in my stead (with lesser gear and less HP obviously, those that have better need not worry) would have had to spam food/pots and tick charm just to stay alive towards the end of the boss, if not just plain out die.

Please note that this was purely to test how hard AOE from banisher hits. I am not a tank class (did say I am AA right?) so can't really say how hard main damage was hitting herc for. I CAN say that with full herc buffs banisher was hitting my 4.5K hp herc for about 1/4 hp at start, 1/3-1/2 hp towards the end. If you want actual numbers you can do math yourselves. Herc is lvl 100 btw so his stats are easy to find from google or forums. As I have no idea how to see damage done to pets (if you know how please tell me, I really want to know, been trying to do that for ages) I can't really tell you proper numbers, just how much of the HP bar on pet was gone with each hit.

I would really appreciate if some pure phys class (like HA BM or Barb) would go and try solo tanking squad 1-3 banisher with same barb and bm buffs as me (lvl 10, no more cause I know for a fact neither barb nor bm were over 89, in fact both were under 80 so yeah..) and please provide screenshots from when you do it.

All the "vague" memories of bosses hitting less were probably memories of them being in BB. Let's assume you were in BB. You'd only be taking 1K damage.

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

I believe Larkray already posted some possibilities why damage is skyroofing when in squad even without any changed base dmg data on bosses... also you are typing the same annoying stuff again and again..
For you any sample size which is lower than about 20 runs is useless, esspecially when there is no data to compare with before tweak...

Oh btw explain me how Banisher can hit my sin with lvl97 and about 5k mag def in bb with 5-6k magic hits. Shouldnt be happening right?

Edit:

Will do a 1-3 Banisher with End later to check if and how damage will change...

secretsurprise

Dont think so raw... he added u to his bl... he just saw ur comment on my pc... oh and ur lil comment about acting like a 12 years old child... roflmao u wont stop acting like a moron, or? He did nothing like that instead of it u wont stop just flame others... u are rlly not anymore wished here... we cant do that true, but just that u know that and dont try to give that ball back it wont work... i dont flame allways all ppl here like u do

TheDan - Sanctuary

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I believe Larkray already posted some possibilities why damage is skyroofing when in squad even without any changed base dmg data on bosses... also you are typing the same annoying stuff again and again..
For you any sample size which is lower than about 20 runs is useless, esspecially when there is no data to compare with before tweak...

Oh btw explain me how Banisher can hit my sin with lvl97 and about 5k mag def in bb with 5-6k magic hits. Shouldnt be happening right?

You don't need 20 runs, you need 20 consecutive hits from damage log. And if you didn't know already, soulbanisher deals more physical damage when his HP decreases.

I guess people from dreamweaver just all happen to experience getting hit for 60% to twice as much as they're supposed to and no one from any other server. None of your evidence can be replicated on any other server than your own. *Cough* conspiracy much?

I only get hit for 3K in BB with 6-7K mage def. b:bye

secretsurprise

No we are not squishy, there still ppl on dreamweaver that dont believe the tweak like u, but same time there are some ppl that think the mobs hit harder now... and ur comment that we are squishy dont explain that we did the same bosses in same instances lots of times earlier with lower lvl and gear, im not a person of numbers in that way, the others here do it better for sure, but i need to ask also and again why i could do that bosses earlier easy with my squads and master was most time together with me so i see whats happend to him in dmg and to me and its changed to higher, but now we have better gear and higher lvl... thats nothing about squishy, thats just strange

Endariel - Dreamweaver

Lets see now.. TheDan, did you even bother reading my posts? or did you just come on to place random opinion with no previous knowledge cause you have nothing better to do (like actually go and get own screenshots of SOLO SQUAD MODE run).

I am certain I said on several occasions that I SOLOED banisher. From what I remember in english class solo means NOT IN BB OR INDEED WITH ANY OTHER PLAYER HELPING KILL BOSS. Buffs are NOT considered a violation of solo killing cause no one likes having their hard earned food and charm go to waste just so they can get, maybe, a single mat drop.

And as to before, I soloed banisher before as well. my 90 gear is only a little worse than my 99 and my HP was only 1.4K less than it was now back when I was 90. I have to admit that I ticked like crazy and wasted alot of apoth and meat just to survive but I still DID. No BB or cleric healing or other sneaky hidden offscreen archers or whatever helped me. I didn't do banisher for more than 3-4 times back at 90 cause his mats weren't worth the pain they brought with but I can say clearly that he was NOT hitting me for 1K.

For the time, please refrain from commenting on what I do or do not before reading all my topics and seeing that what I AM doing is making an honest inquery with actual screenshots to show how AOE from bosses affect me, and to compare how AOE affects me while soloing, in squad out of BB and in squad inside BB. I also intend to do wulord at some other time as well to see how he hits. I know I can't tank 2-3 wulord but I soloed 2-2 one before (with interrupt skils from genie its quite possible, herc doesn't get hit as bad now either so even MORE possible) so should be soloable now if nothing changed right?

TheDan - Sanctuary

secretsurprise wrote: »

No we are not squishy, there still ppl on dreamweaver that dont believe the tweak like u, but same time there are some ppl that think the mobs hit harder now... and ur comment that we are squishy dont explain that we did the same bosses in same instances lots of times earlier with lower lvl and gear, im not a person of numbers in that way, the others here do it better for sure, but i need to ask also and again why i could do that bosses earlier easy with my squads and master was most time together with me so i see whats happend to him in dmg and to me and its changed to higher, but now we have better gear and higher lvl... thats nothing about squishy, thats just strange

Yeah, you're squishy. You get hit for twice as much as I do with the same magic defense.

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lets see now.. TheDan, did you even bother reading my posts? or did you just come on to place random opinion with no previous knowledge cause you have nothing better to do (like actually go and get own screenshots of SOLO SQUAD MODE run).

I am certain I said on several occasions that I SOLOED banisher. From what I remember in english class solo means NOT IN BB OR INDEED WITH ANY OTHER PLAYER HELPING KILL BOSS. Buffs are NOT considered a violation of solo killing cause no one likes having their hard earned food and charm go to waste just so they can get, maybe, a single mat drop.

And as to before, I soloed banisher before as well. my 90 gear is only a little worse than my 99 and my HP was only 1.4K less than it was now back when I was 90. I have to admit that I ticked like crazy and wasted alot of apoth and meat just to survive but I still DID. No BB or cleric healing or other sneaky hidden offscreen archers or whatever helped me. I didn't do banisher for more than 3-4 times back at 90 cause his mats weren't worth the pain they brought with but I can say clearly that he was NOT hitting me for 1K.

For the time, please refrain from commenting on what I do or do not before reading all my topics and seeing that what I AM doing is making an honest inquery with actual screenshots to show how AOE from bosses affect me, and to compare how AOE affects me while soloing, in squad out of BB and in squad inside BB. I also intend to do wulord at some other time as well to see how he hits. I know I can't tank 2-3 wulord but I soloed 2-2 one before (with interrupt skils from genie its quite possible, herc doesn't get hit as bad now either so even MORE possible) so should be soloable now if nothing changed right?

You aren't even cleric phys def buffed in your picture. That's a 60% phys def buff. I don't recall anywhere in your post having mentioned that you were soloing with the same buffs. Also, you're in human form. That's easily your problem.

I've been soloing TT instances before dreamweaver was even opened tyvm and my knowledge of the game is not limited to post lost empire expansion. I use stone turtle orbs to test damage parallel to that of BB effect. BB effect doesn't have to be from a cleric, don't be so quick to assume.

HeavensRage - Raging Tide

endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

my 90 Gear Is Only A Little Worse Than My 99 And My Hp Was Only 1.4k Less Than It Was Now Back When I Was 90.

ಥ_ಥ

ಥ_ಥ

secretsurprise

Oh ty again it happend a guy that isnt able to do a normal discuss... u say u are squishy... what is not a nice comment so far but i just said we are not... and so on and all what u do is in that way insult whole dreamweaver not in the way of bad words true but u do it

pffff

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by secretsurprise:
No we are not squishy, there still ppl on dreamweaver that dont believe the tweak like u, but same time there are some ppl that think the mobs hit harder now... and ur comment that we are squishy dont explain that we did the same bosses in same instances lots of times earlier with lower lvl and gear, im not a person of numbers in that way, the others here do it better for sure, but i need to ask also and again why i could do that bosses earlier easy with my squads and master was most time together with me so i see whats happend to him in dmg and to me and its changed to higher, but now we have better gear and higher lvl... thats nothing about squishy, thats just strange

Originally Posted by TheDan:
Yeah, you're squishy. You get hit for twice as much as I do with the same magic defense.

Lets call this the new developed "TheDan - squishy debuff"
-> Getting double damage with same buffs and same def.

Do you even recognise what you are typing there????

Endariel - Dreamweaver

The Dan, when I said test AOE I meant TEST AOE. not test how AOE hits inside BB. And as for cleric buffs I ON PURPOSE neglected those. I wanted to see how hard it hits with bare minimun, and since barb buffs only add HP and I didn't feel like waiting for my BM bell buff to wear off (and no, didn't ask, BM buffed me on his own when he helped open TT and thats why I asked people to emulate same buffs and not others) I can't see why you should say I need to use some apoth to emulate BB. I am not squishy enough that I need BB to test out boss AOE damage. I suggest you try testing without using apoths for BB effects before you judge others. Oh and I am not saying you are squishy cause I have no idea what gear or stats you have (after all, I don't see any of YOUR screenshots showing you soloing banisher in here) so will refrain from judging. If you want you can also bring a lvl 66 barb to come watch you solo banisher if you feel I was somehow using him to intimidate banisher with long cat-like stares from the safety of the other side of the room.

Oh and one last thing. Do you remember when pwi anounced that TT bosses were too weak and they were making them stronger? yeah, I do too. Did you do any runs AFTER they upped the level? I did. so all your "I was running TT before dreamweaver was ever on" comments are irrelevant to current situation, please notice we are talking about RECENT time, not 1 year ago (and btw, I was playing on lost server before, and quit for some time before returning, so server seniority can be argued here as well).

TheDan - Sanctuary

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The Dan, when I said test AOE I meant TEST AOE. not test how AOE hits inside BB. And as for cleric buffs I ON PURPOSE neglected those. I wanted to see how hard it hits with bare minimun, and since barb buffs only add HP and I didn't feel like waiting for my BM bell buff to wear off (and no, didn't ask, BM buffed me on his own when he helped open TT and thats why I asked people to emulate same buffs and not others) I can't see why you should say I need to use some apoth to emulate BB. I am not squishy enough that I need BB to test out boss AOE damage. I suggest you try testing without using apoths for BB effects before you judge others. Oh and I am not saying you are squishy cause I have no idea what gear or stats you have (after all, I don't see any of YOUR screenshots showing you soloing banisher in here) so will refrain from judging. If you want you can also bring a lvl 66 barb to come watch you solo banisher if you feel I was somehow using him to intimidate banisher with long cat-like stares from the safety of the other side of the room.

Oh and one last thing. Do you remember when pwi anounced that TT bosses were too weak and they were making them stronger? yeah, I do too. Did you do any runs AFTER they upped the level? I did. so all your "I was running TT before dreamweaver was ever on" comments are irrelevant to current situation, please notice we are talking about RECENT time, not 1 year ago (and btw, I was playing on lost server before, and quit for some time before returning, so server seniority can be argued here as well).

You didn't specify what buffs you wanted, so don't blame my skepticism when you offer vague information.

I've farmed and sold hundreds of millions of mats since the TT changes. And my memories of soulbanisher and all the other bosses I've done are not limited to pre TT changes considering I re-farmed every TT to remake my TT99 fists to G15 them this past week and done many faction gear runs to build gear for faction bank. I farmed like 25% of my faction bank's TT mats after changes, and they're all pretty solo-able with sin buffs.

I can post screenshots of damage log of soul banisher after I get home from school, but it's barely worth doing considering how I can BP tank every boss including harpy wraith without a cleric.

Endariel - Dreamweaver

Well now I have real proof that you, TheDan, are NOT reading my posts before replying. In my post with the screenshots I specified that I want a phys player to have SAME BUFFS AS ME. and I also specified that those are lvl 10 barb buffs and bm bell, and if you think it changes anything to damage resistance than sage brambles as well. Other than that I am certain I repeated said buffs on the following post where I commented that being in BB or using apoth to emulate BB is a completely different type of testing. Also, since I can't have BP on me (as far as I know doesn't apply to mag players) I call BP non soloable skill due to the fact that NOT EVERY PLAYER can emulate same tactics. While soloing a boss should be possible for every player when they have enough HP/res/buffs to emulate conditions of other players. (example is a veno with 11K phys def equals in phys def to a bm of whatever level. so if BM can solo a boss of certain level said veno should be able to do the same as long as they have same def and same hp. damage is irrelevant cause if boss hits the same only difference is how fast it will die and unless boss has unique skills that activate after certain time passes than it should act the same to all).

What I really want to see is how does boss AOE or indeed boss direct attack affect each class, in solo squad mode run, in squad out of BB and in squad in BB. Remember to use EXACTLY same buffs for all 3 runs. Also, no apoth to emulate BB allowed cause its not constant BB nor is it really the same thing. Oh and just incase I didn't make myself clear, although BP is a valid soloing skill for phys players, I refuse to even look at screenshots of testing boss damage while with BP cause I can't emulate same conditions on any of my toons (and yes, I CAN get 35K phys def if I absolutly must but I rather use my coins on more usefull things)

Eoria - Harshlands

Zzzz...bosses have not been changed since the implementation of manly mode in 3-x. You were just unlucky. May I also remind you that Soulbanisher's AOE gets stronger as time passes and his HP decreases?

P.S. No, I'm not going into 1-3 to test it. I don't exactly have the greatest gear as a cleric so soloing that **** is out of the question.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I believe Larkray already posted some possibilities why damage is skyroofing when in squad even without any changed base dmg data on bosses... also you are typing the same annoying stuff again and again..
For you any sample size which is lower than about 20 runs is useless, esspecially when there is no data to compare with before tweak...

Oh btw explain me how Banisher can hit my sin with lvl97 and about 5k mag def in bb with 5-6k magic hits. Shouldnt be happening right?

Edit:

Will do a 1-3 Banisher with End later to check if and how damage will change...

whats the mdef/pdef on your sin?
I can gladly make a video of charm tanking soul banisher on spark macro.. (im not aps). I will even allow myself to get hit with magic damage. as a sin, I Imagine you'll have much higher magic defenses than myself from your LA, especially if you wear AA ornaments. I will run unbuffed with a based mdef of 47% against level 101 enemies.

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

My sins mdef is about 3.3k... i will do a video or screens, whatever is better if 1-3 Banisher will **** us when getting to him in full squad.

Btw.. when we had that bad problems, i got ***** 4 times in a row within about the first 30sec doing Banisher (in bb). So we werent even close to get the aoe...

Larkray - Dreamweaver

As I've said several times. Soloing a squad mode boss is dealing different results than tanking that same boss in a squad. So those of you saying you'll solo the bosses for testing, that point is irrelevant >.<

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

how is it irrelevant if the matter at question as far as I can tell is the amount of damage the boss is dealing? I've yet to see anywhere confirmed that the bosses do more damage based upon the number of people in squad. Behaviorally, Soul Banisher has always had a sort of momentary random aggro/ aggro reset at one point or another during the fight - sometimes you don't notice it though if the tank happens to be the one that gets this aggro swap. Ive done the boss enough times with the same squad doing the same things on each boss that I can hold aggro and cancel his magic attack continuously and no one else gets aggro during bosses - except for on banisher. I'm not positive what the tell is for this behavior though tbh, i just know it happens. dimentora/shooting aur also has an aggro reset 10 minutes after he calls for his minions to spawn, but we always have the DD's stop right before the reset, then commence attacking after the first ream I make after the reset.

at any rate, I've done the 1-3 solo up to banisher and his magic attack range on me was extremely wide, going anywhere from about 2k at the start towards up to 7k+ at the end. this test was done using class only buffs + tidal wafer. I'll be uploading the video including character sheet before and after eating tidal wafer, with a rolling damage log showing in trade chat window. I can do a similar run with a full squad under the same buff conditions (for myself at least) and then compare.

edit: comparing the damage numbers of Soulbanisher: Substancia from the pwdatabase, and running the numbers against different parts of the damage formulas found on the pwi damage wiki, the damage I received looks properly in line with everything we know:

Banishers top range damage: 14330
Defense level modifier: 1.0102 (based on 1 defense level)
Damage multiplier: 0.5448106782892945 (based on my own defenses, and level 150 attacker)

By combining these values we get:
14330 / 1.0102 * 0.5448106782892945 = 7,652.555400789639 <-- max damage I should have seen

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well now I have real proof that you, TheDan, are NOT reading my posts before replying. In my post with the screenshots I specified that I want a phys player to have SAME BUFFS AS ME. and I also specified that those are lvl 10 barb buffs and bm bell, and if you think it changes anything to damage resistance than sage brambles as well. ...................
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I refuse to even look at screenshots of testing boss damage while with BP cause I can't emulate same conditions on any of my toons (and yes, I CAN get 35K phys def if I absolutly must but I rather use my coins on more usefull things)

Neither the sage nor demon versions nor versions 1-10 of bramble guard say anything whatsoever about reducing damage taken by a player, they only reflect melee damage/some boss aoe that is physical.

OTOH, BP states that it "absorbs 2% physical melee damage", but its not as far as I know a damage reduction skill, but only heals for 2% of the damage you deal. so here, bloodpaint should still be allowed in viewing damage logs since it has no effect on the damage you take - only the ability to heal yourself more effectively. That's almost like saying "don't use potions" IMO.

secretsurprise

Neither the sage nor demon versions nor versions 1-10 of bramble guard say anything whatsoever about reducing damage taken by a player, they only reflect melee damage/some boss aoe that is physical.

its not about bramble guard its bramble hood, here the description of it:

Create an array of magical brambles to return 200% of
melee damage and reduce damage taken by 75%. Lasts 15 seconds.

so u see there is a dmg reduce...

just so far

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

you must misunderstand then. Endarial was making a statement about wanting a physical class to have the same buffs as him/herself and mentioned sage bramble as one of them under the stipulation that some people seem to think that bramble guard gives a reduction to damage taken. I already know that bramble hood gives a reduction to all incoming damage, but that is a 10 second duration and only capable of being cast on self, not on others. For the purposes of this particular discussion she was referring to bramble guard, not hood since it is a "buff" that can be cast on another player and has a duration long enough to last for the whole boss fight. Her argument against using apothecary buffs to simulate BB damage reduction effect is that they only have about a 20 second duration at most, not giving an large enough data pool under BB like effects. She didn't want to include blood paint in the scenario since it was a class specific buff that only barbs, bms, and sins can get (not sure about seekers as yet.. ive yet to squad with one tbh), however it does not actually reduce the damage you take at all. On the matter of BB/BB like effects, I am not 100% positive but I'm fairly certain that its a straight forward 50% reduction as in:

using the numbers from my previous post:
14330 / 1.0102 * 0.5448106782892945 * .5 = 3,864.154137737869 <--- max damage I should receive from Soulbanishers magic attack under BB.

again that is with just class buffs and tidal wafer to add 50% magic defenses from gear (less than a clerics magic shell actually). Those numbers are pretty much in line with my experience with doing enough TT runs pre Rising Tide expansion to make me not want to do them much anymore unless I'm really bored or intrigued by a thread such as this.

btw, as of this exact moment my video is 47% done uploading.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well now I have real proof that you, TheDan, are NOT reading my posts before replying. In my post with the screenshots I specified that I want a phys player to have SAME BUFFS AS ME. and I also specified that those are lvl 10 barb buffs and bm bell, and if you think it changes anything to damage resistance than sage brambles as well. Other than that I am certain I repeated said buffs on the following post where I commented that being in BB or using apoth to emulate BB is a completely different type of testing. Also, since I can't have BP on me (as far as I know doesn't apply to mag players) I call BP non soloable skill due to the fact that NOT EVERY PLAYER can emulate same tactics.

You're one to talk about using same tactics, whereas you're not even tanking the boss, the herc is. You're taking AOE damage, which is a skill damage different from the boss' base physical damage. The boss' base physical attack doesn't even correspond to a skill damage. Boss AoE skills =/= base physical attack. If you're going to suggest everyone using the same tactics then go melee tank the boss to test it's true damage range. If you try range tanking you'll take its magic damage, not its physical. The AoE is a physical skill, not a base physical.

For the record, I have all my level 11 skills and most my gear is +10, and I will never have the same buffs as you because it makes no sense to walk around with level 10 bell when I have level 11 self buffed.

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

While soloing a boss should be possible for every player when they have enough HP/res/buffs to emulate conditions of other players. (example is a veno with 11K phys def equals in phys def to a bm of whatever level. so if BM can solo a boss of certain level said veno should be able to do the same as long as they have same def and same hp. damage is irrelevant cause if boss hits the same only difference is how fast it will die and unless boss has unique skills that activate after certain time passes than it should act the same to all).

You aren't even including that BMs have triple spark that heals HP, marrows, have higher evasion, and have shadowless kick, as well as spiked phys def from demon bell. Venoes will never have the same HP / resistance a BM does because they will never have marrows or as much evasion.

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What I really want to see is how does boss AOE or indeed boss direct attack affect each class, in solo squad mode run, in squad out of BB and in squad in BB. Remember to use EXACTLY same buffs for all 3 runs. Also, no apoth to emulate BB allowed cause its not constant BB nor is it really the same thing.

Boss AoE skill =/= base physical damage. Stop comparing damage taken from a skill to its' physical attack as the skill is variable to how much HP it has remaining. They're not even the same thing. If you want objective data there needs to be a controlled variable. The HP is not constant, so the AoE skill is never going to be the same.

Endariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Oh and just incase I didn't make myself clear, although BP is a valid soloing skill for phys players, I refuse to even look at screenshots of testing boss damage while with BP cause I can't emulate same conditions on any of my toons (and yes, I CAN get 35K phys def if I absolutly must but I rather use my coins on more usefull things)

You don't even know what BP does do you? It heals me, and has nothing to do with my damage taken. You can get 35K phys def, but your herc tanks, not you. What's the point? Venoes can never get the same resistances and HP as a BM simply because venoes don't have marrows, as much evasion or as much HP per vit as BMs.

Larkray - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As I've said several times. Soloing a squad mode boss is dealing different results than tanking that same boss in a squad. So those of you saying you'll solo the bosses for testing, that point is irrelevant >.<

I can pull unconfirmed random stuff out of my *** too.

Symptoms of playing a Veno character include being gullible, lack of logic, and taking heightened damage from bosses in game that cannot be replicated by anyone else

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

how is it irrelevant if the matter at question as far as I can tell is the amount of damage the boss is dealing? I've yet to see anywhere confirmed that the bosses do more damage based upon the number of people in squad. Behaviorally, Soul Banisher has always had a sort of momentary random aggro/ aggro reset at one point or another during the fight - sometimes you don't notice it though if the tank happens to be the one that gets this aggro swap. Ive done the boss enough times with the same squad doing the same things on each boss that I can hold aggro and cancel his magic attack continuously and no one else gets aggro during bosses - except for on banisher. I'm not positive what the tell is for this behavior though tbh, i just know it happens. dimentora/shooting aur also has an aggro reset 10 minutes after he calls for his minions to spawn, but we always have the DD's stop right before the reset, then commence attacking after the first ream I make after the reset.

at any rate, I've done the 1-3 solo up to banisher and his magic attack range on me was extremely wide, going anywhere from about 2k at the start towards up to 7k+ at the end. this test was done using class only buffs + tidal wafer. I'll be uploading the video including character sheet before and after eating tidal wafer, with a rolling damage log showing in trade chat window. I can do a similar run with a full squad under the same buff conditions (for myself at least) and then compare.

edit: comparing the damage numbers of Soulbanisher: Substancia from the pwdatabase, and running the numbers against different parts of the damage formulas found on the pwi damage wiki, the damage I received looks properly in line with everything we know:

Banishers top range damage: 14330
Defense level modifier: 1.0102 (based on 1 defense level)
Damage multiplier: 0.5448106782892945 (based on my own defenses, and level 150 attacker)

By combining these values we get:
14330 / 1.0102 * 0.5448106782892945 = 7,652.555400789639 <-- max damage I should have seen

Finally someone posting with sound logic. There's way too much stupidity on this thread.

MasterofIce - Dreamweaver

i understand you still dont get, it , you dont even try to, the massive damage increases were ONLY when bosses were made in squad not a single guy making them solo.
Next guy in my ignorelist, you dont even TRY to read what others are typing.

XxZavxX - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Programming changes don't take disk space, they take developer time. Development time is a resource PWI has very little of and wouldn't waste it making constant unnoticed tweeks to mobs.

This would make sense if the DEVELOPERS have never tweeked TT. They have before...