Force Stealth Nerf

Loarvion - Dreamweaver

ooh didnt know it gives u a spark thats hillarious ty for telling me

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

Force stealth definitely needs a nerf.

@Those who say there needs to be something for sins since they're LA,would you like me to start on archers now?

@ntkn:Real logic is needed in a game no matter how far the game itself does not seem logical.

Force stealth does not really seem to be a balance for sins being squishy.Like the OP has said,they get to decide when battles end,whether they are losing or not.A lot of threads have gone about sins breaking PvP into shreds and most of the time it's because they can't be one-shotted and the moment their Deaden Nerves goes off,they can just force stealth and run.

sleepcat

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

I say there has to be some kind of trade off on using it... 99% of the time sins will die incredibly easy in PvP... hell I have decent gear and pretty nice hp and I drop like a fly if more then one person can attack me or any decent magic user (as in same gear or better then me) attacks me

Isn't that normal for pretty much all classes except for barbs/bms/clerics? I'm a Veno and I drop like a fly when I'm being attacked by multiple people. Is that normal?

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

sleepcat wrote: »

Isn't that normal for pretty much all classes except for barbs/bms/clerics? I'm a Veno and I drop like a fly when I'm being attacked by multiple people. Is that normal?

lol'd b:pleased

I'd 100% agree except on the cleric part. clerics drop just as fast as the rest of us, whether they're stacking IH or not

but ya, I'd say even bms and barbs are pretty easy to take down if multiple people are attacking, especially if one's a wizzy or psychic dropping nukes.

Manakel - Lost City

If I'm not mistaken, blink + holy path is a good gtfo button, as is plume shell, sleep, holy path- and a stun then leap forward/ that running skill. This is our gtfo skill.

Deora - Lost City

Manakel - Lost City wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, blink + holy path is a good gtfo button, as is plume shell, sleep, holy path- and a stun then leap forward/ that running skill. This is our gtfo skill.

Oh and don't forget to mention archers wings of grace + ironguard powder

(For those of you uninformed on this ancient bug, it allows you to get the 12 seconds of immunity WITHOUT the stun part)

GreenBeans - Dreamweaver

Sin takes 15k
*dead end nerves*

*force stealth*

Sin: k bye

Me: ffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu b:angry

Deora - Lost City

GreenBeans - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sin takes 15k
*dead end nerves*

*force stealth*

Sin: k bye

Me: ffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu b:angry

Skills still be channeled will hit them anyway so yeah... deaden nerves isn't all that useful (in PvP, I love it when running through the hands in hh/dragon gate)

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Manakel - Lost City wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, blink + holy path is a good gtfo button, as is plume shell, sleep, holy path- and a stun then leap forward/ that running skill. This is our gtfo skill.

lol, your funny.

Blink= 25meters. Not much. Holy path? you can have that too. Unless I'm 25-50 meters from a SZ, you'll jus holy path with me, and tele stun. so no.
plume shell...as in a cleric move...as in a class thats infamous for being owned by assassins...I'm sorry, but if you cant own a cleric your lvl from stealth, then you're a fail sin that doesnt deserve the kill.
Bm stun then get away? sure, but holy path catches that easy.

but that's all irrelevent because this is how it works with sins: sin attacks out of stealth and a) owns target, or b) doesnt own target, gets knocked down to no health, regenerates 20%, and force stealths. No one but the sin ever runs. You either get owned, or make the sin run away.

one last big difference you may have noticed: YOU CAN STILL BE RAN DOWN AND KILLED. If I blink/HP away, you can still catch me. If I plume shell and sleep you, you can still hunt me down. If I stun you and sprint, you can still catch me.
but force stealth? you're gone. nothing left. whispers in the wind. Your not a moving target that I have to keep up with. You're a non existant target that I cant even lock on to.

Sephirothxp - Heavens Tear

I heard liek i go in air and sin follows. i liek wait for teh sin to go out of sleathy and liek stun + HF + TE and liek dead lvl 100 sin with mah +3 calamitys yo.b:shutup

pwiissux!!

Deora - Lost City

Sephirothxp - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I heard liek i go in air and sin follows. i liek wait for teh sin to go out of sleathy and liek stun + HF + TE and liek dead lvl 100 sin with mah +3 calamitys yo.b:shutup

pwiissux!!

And people say sins are op, they obviously forgot about that HF + TE combo >_>

Quilue - Sanctuary

Actually anti-stun + Ironguard isn't a bug, it works for everybody. Anyone with AD can chain AD's 2s anti-stun afterward with IG. Venos have been using Vacuity with Feral Concentration as well, works the same way.

Deora - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually anti-stun + Ironguard isn't a bug, it works for everybody. Anyone with AD can chain AD's 2s anti-stun afterward with IG. Venos have been using Vacuity with Feral Concentration as well, works the same way.

I know anyone with an anti-stun skill can do it but thats beside the point...

I've really only ever seen archers do it though

Alphae - Lost City

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

I know anyone with an anti-stun skill can do it but thats beside the point...

I've really only ever seen archers do it though

So why call it a bug?

Feral Concentration is a limited use skill and not really viable in PvP (1v1) because of its incredible 3 sec channel time. But I see ADs chained plenty, it's been done ever since the skill has been used in TW. These uses are just smart play.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

I know anyone with an anti-stun skill can do it but thats beside the point...

I've really only ever seen archers do it though

Apothecary grants 12s of invulnerability to any class since all classes can use IGs. After that 12s is up the player is vulnerable since they cant use apothecary again for 2mins. Shadow escape grants as much invulnerability as the sin wants. They arent just safe for a few seconds.

Also some people seem to be under the impression that you can see sins of your level with a detect pot. Demon shadow escape gives +31 stealth level making this impossible.

SgtSIaughter - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Apothecary grants 12s of invulnerability to any class since all classes can use IGs. After that 12s is up the player is vulnerable since they cant use apothecary again for 2mins. Shadow escape grants as much invulnerability as the sin wants. They arent just safe for a few seconds.

Also some people seem to be under the impression that you can see sins of your level with a detect pot. Demon shadow escape gives +31 stealth level making this impossible.

AFAIK, demon stealthed sin Lv103 requires u to be level 104 to see, good luck with THAT.

truekossy

Deora - Lost City wrote: »

I know anyone with an anti-stun skill can do it but thats beside the point...

I've really only ever seen archers do it though

Have you seen how fast the average archer gets rolled without that combo? Of course they're going to be one of the classes that use it more often. The only survival skills they really have are winged shell (any decent endgame player can pop this in one hit) and wings of grace. They don't even get a self-heal skill outside of genies (demon serrated doesn't count. it's a load of bull and everyone knows it). On top of tat, they still have to deal with the drawbacks of LA.

Deathiris - Sanctuary

They should just make DoT's work.

Things like vicious arrow/serrated arrow DoT dmg casted before shadow escape, should deal damage and unstealth the sin.

I don't know about other DoT's but I did test serrated/vicious arrow/stormrage. I don't remember if I continued to take damage while stealthed or if the effect simply went away, but I do remember that I remained in stealth.

This would also give"useless" skills like draw blood, vicious arrow, crown of flames, etc a purpose.

WildStyIe - Lost City

My personal opinion: Just make it so that Force Stealth costs a spark instead of giving a spark.

Chances of that happening: 0%

Shadowfire - Dreamweaver

Another possible change, although probably not one any sins would like:
Attacks for x amount of time after leaving force stealth deal 50% less damage/the first attack will not stun/seal/sleep the target. (x would not be a long duration, simply long enough to prevent the sin force stealthing to waste an opponent's survival skills/spark/etc and then unstealth and kill them easily).

Imo, this isn't unfair to sins, because they can still try to stun/sleep/kite someone that uses spark (same thing every other class does, lol @ anyone trying to tank full sparked damage. spark is really obvious for a reason). They also still have Tidal Protection/Deaden Nerves/etc, and can still use force stealth to leave if they decide they can't beat an opponent. They also still get a spark, so it's fair to other classes in that the sin can't force stealth - double spark - be guaranteed to wtfpwn anyone not wearing HA/with domain available).
Logically, the opponent knows the sin is their after they force stealth, so they'll be more wary/alert, and more likely to be able to react to the attack. No one would go "oh someone just tried to assassinate me. Oh well, back to sleep/daydreaming/etc." It's harder to assassinate someone after a failed attempt, and it doesn't hurt sins that badly to apply this in game.

The penalties on force stealth can even be made only to apply for duels/open pvp (not tw) if desired, since there's precedent for restrictions like that on other skills, and tw would generally be more chaotic, so a target would have less time to focus on the sin that just used force stealth, since there's plenty of non-sin opponents that have to be compensated for also.

Just my 2cents

Lorminstra - Heavens Tear

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Just wanna start by saying this isnt a QQ thread.
But force stealth is crossing a line. Not only is it unfair that at any time you can say, "fights over, bye," but it's also very un-assassin like. In history, a failed attempt at assassination almost always led to the assassin getting killed. Historically, there was no "force stealth" for them to disapear from infront of the enemies eyes so they could try again in 5minutes.


One last note: I'm not complaining about sins being a broken overpowered class. The fact of the matter is, they are a NEW class. And as with anything new (especially with PWIb:shutup) there are going to be some quirks to work out. I know some people say that we just need to find a way to handle them, but I don't see any way to beat force stealth b:surrender

It is a QQ thread, the first Bold text says the first hint to its a QQ thread and the second bold text says it all... "you cant beat it and so you make a thread saying NERF them"

Also your "Poll" gives another hint to it "Yes, it makes the sin too easy to play".

Say what you want, but that is to QQ about them & their skill.

I just like to know why are you trying to hide the real reason you made the thread?

No my reply isnt a flame, there is 0% flame in any of my words!

Euphy - Dreamweaver

Oldest Suggestion Ever:

I think that certain AoEs should not require a target. Any magical AoE that is centered around the user should work without one (ex. Siren's Kiss, Aqua Cannon). And certain melee skills like Heaven's Flame also don't appear to need one - so why should they? This would allow Shadow Escape to be used 100% in PvE situations, where especially lower assassins depend on it. But it also gives a realistic and reasonable means for other classes to defend themselves and kill their assassins.

Conclusion:
Shadow Escape is fine. Fix user-centered AoEs instead. I know Archers, Clerics, Psychics, Assassins, Wizards, Barbarians, and Blademasters have at least one. I think Venomancers don't... so add one.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

But force stealth is crossing a line. Not only is it unfair that at any time you can say, "fights over, bye," but it's also very un-assassin like. In history, a failed attempt at assassination almost always led to the assassin getting killed. Historically, there was no "force stealth" for them to disapear from infront of the enemies eyes so they could try again in 5minutes.

The flaw in this, is historically, there is forced stealth. Imagine Ninjitsu, or if you watch comics, think Batman (yes i know he's fictional, but its a good place to demonstrate). There's in fact 2 different varieties of force stealth employed by such people.

The 1st is the art of distraction, often loud sound 'fire crackers' shot to the side, will almost always make someone jolt their head to the side to see where it came from. In that very moment, a quick & stealthy retreat is possible.

The 2nd, is the cloud of smoke, an easy to create little sack of mild combustables tossed to the ground creates a vision barrier lasting a few seconds. That is when the ninja (or batman) can make a stealthy escape.

The problem more stems from the fact that there is no animation imitating either of these two actions, so people dont make the connection as to how its possible. Remember the assasin wasnt historically necessarily a good fighter. Most "assasin" classes are more appropriately rogue/ninjas. Those are the techniques employed.

Also i'd like to note in addition, both WoW & FFXI (two very succesful MMOs) both have classes which did infact employ both regular stealth & forced stealth from combat, as it is a general class ability of the MMORPG architype.

Is it annoying? Of course, but its part of the class, alot more globally then just in this game as well.

Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Oldest Suggestion Ever:

I think that certain AoEs should not require a target. Any magical AoE that is centered around the user should work without one (ex. Siren's Kiss, Aqua Cannon). And certain melee skills like Heaven's Flame also don't appear to need one - so why should they? This would allow Shadow Escape to be used 100% in PvE situations, where especially lower assassins depend on it. But it also gives a realistic and reasonable means for other classes to defend themselves and kill their assassins.

Conclusion:
Shadow Escape is fine. Fix user-centered AoEs instead. I know Archers, Clerics, Psychics, Assassins, Wizards, Barbarians, and Blademasters have at least one. I think Venomancers don't... so add one.

^ This. This is however how most games do balance shadow escape somewhat. They allow AoEs to trigger off easier & reveal people who shadow escape. This is the fix that should be implemented.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

^ This. This is however how most games do balance shadow escape somewhat. They allow AoEs to trigger off easier & reveal people who shadow escape. This is the fix that should be implemented.

It would definitely be a good upgrade but then sins could just force stealth and move away from the enemy. If you could walk around with that AoE it might work better but still, most sins stand outside the normal AoE range, just inside the stun tele range. Staying on the move while stealthed wouldn't be that bad either.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Deathiris - Sanctuary wrote: »

They should just make DoT's work.

Things like vicious arrow/serrated arrow DoT dmg casted before shadow escape, should deal damage and unstealth the sin.

I don't know about other DoT's but I did test serrated/vicious arrow/stormrage. I don't remember if I continued to take damage while stealthed or if the effect simply went away, but I do remember that I remained in stealth.

This would also give"useless" skills like draw blood, vicious arrow, crown of flames, etc a purpose.

last time I checked, force stealth alleviates all status ailments. So force stealthing gives you a clean slate.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary

it doesnt, its a typo. only the sage one does.

i think im going to start a new law too...

"the longer a game discussion goes on the chances of a blizzard game comparison becomes 1"

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Lorminstra - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It is a QQ thread, the first Bold text says the first hint to its a QQ thread and the second bold text says it all... "you cant beat it and so you make a thread saying NERF them"

Also your "Poll" gives another hint to it "Yes, it makes the sin too easy to play".

Say what you want, but that is to QQ about them & their skill.

I just like to know why are you trying to hide the real reason you made the thread?

No my reply isnt a flame, there is 0% flame in any of my words!

It really isnt a QQ thread. If you really read what I posted, you'd see I'm just saying that assassins arnt perfect, as they're still new to the game. Do you really find it so hard to believe that the developers might of made a mistake in creating a class, and gave the sins a skill that's a little too much?

As for the poll: I think that's true. Force stealth makes the sin VERY easy to play. Whether it's a mob or a player, if you pick a fight you shouldnt had picked, then you just force stealth away.

So no, I'm not QQ'ing about them. I'm just saying that something may need to be fixed, and I dont feel I've raged or cried about sins owning me this entire threadb:bye

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Shadowfire - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Another possible change, although probably not one any sins would like:
Attacks for x amount of time after leaving force stealth deal 50% less damage/the first attack will not stun/seal/sleep the target. (x would not be a long duration, simply long enough to prevent the sin force stealthing to waste an opponent's survival skills/spark/etc and then unstealth and kill them easily).

I'll add it to the original post b:pleased

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Aisubeki - Sanctuary wrote: »

"the longer a game discussion goes on the chances of a blizzard game comparison becomes 1"

Ikr b:surrender

Aelo - Harshlands

There are a few sins on HF that unless you are a barb it makes no difference wether you can see them or not (6 pieces of -intv gear and +10/12 weapons). How about these two sugestions:

1) Cap aps to 2/3max

2) Get rid of those jones/anniversary blessings

I would take those two changes and let sins keep their steath anyday. As a bonus how about a third suggestio:

3) Genie anti bleed skills didnt solve the nix issue. Nerf the bleed already.