Common Misconceptions
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Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »The corrections were because you spelled "whether" wrong every time you used it. Everyone makes typos. Not everyone does not know how to spell "whether." I'll read the rest of your post when I'm in the mood to decipher verbose convoluted sentences. I mean really, keep that stuff off the forums please. I have enough text books to read.
I'm not a native speaker and thus bound to ocasionally make such mistakes. I can assure you i won't ever forget the correct spelling of whether again.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I have always stated that a herc is not needed. My statement to you was clear and to the point. Herc does not make or break a player, it augments their effectiveness.
Verbosity mode = off please. You would make far greater sense if you speak directly and to the point. Excessive verbiage does not suit you. It seems as if your ability to communicate is hindered by expanding your vocabulary, and quite frankly you give me a headache when it seems like you're trying to make a word count.
As for the charges of verbosity i'm afraid i may have taken far too much liberty writing plainly for today. If my writing seems roundabout i apologize, i meant it to be formal. Given the fact i don't feel entirely at liberty to speak my mind anymore, much less engage in any sort of debate that may lead to hostile confrontation, it may take me some time to readjust my usual writing style. While clearly my command of the language may not be up to the standards of some posters, and certainly i've rarely seen such keen interest in these points, i'm fairly confident it would not require much of an effort to decipher whatever is it that i was trying to say. Certainly many 1337 and BR posts are entitled such benefit... If it seems too harsh a demand i'll simply take back my arguments and concede on all points. Either way, i don't much care about the outcome of discussions i've been engaged in for the moment.0 -
Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »
5. A herc is a sign of a good veno, at higher levels if a veno still doesn't have a herc it's probably because the veno is bad.
Just because a higher level Veno doesn't have a Herc doesn't mean they are bad; It means they are poor. High level skills don't come cheap; and if they are young (parents don't always buy PW Cards) or don't have a job that allows extra spending money for things like an online game, getting the SoF isn't an easy task.We Are Recruiting: On The Dreamweaver Server: Fly Away Home To Zion
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Contact Us Through PM: On Forum Or In Game: We Want To Hear From You
Apply To Zion On Our New Forums: www(dot)zion(dot)shivtr(dot)com0 -
LadyFianait - Dreamweaver wrote: »Just because a higher level Veno doesn't have a Herc doesn't mean they are bad; It means they are poor. High level skills don't come cheap; and if they are young (parents don't always buy PW Cards) or don't have a job that allows extra spending money for things like an online game, getting the SoF isn't an easy task.
Consequently, if a high level veno is poor, that means they are bad. Hmm...0 -
NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »Consequently, if a high level veno is poor, that means they are bad. Hmm...
On the MY server, hercs/phoes were about 800mil when I left and considering there hadn't been a box at all much less one with sof/plumes in ages, the supply of sof/plumes were probably near depleted thus near impossible to get one anyway.
Conversely, sage AOE purge was about 300mil. If I had had 800mil there, I'd rather buy the AOE purge and refine my gear (or buy demon Stone Barrier for my wiz, which was about 500mil-600mil).
Here though, it's much easier to get one. However, it's not really practical anymore due to the advent of 5aps. Herc may shine in the 7x/8x range where people don't really have a lot of -int gear yet, but they start to lose their usefulness by 9x and seem to be very useless at 100.
It's understandable then why some don't want to spend the money. Why spend about 80mil for a pet that's not that useful to them at 100? They would be much better off refining their end-game gear and buying their skillbooks (or buying a phoe for TW).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"subtraction has the butt of an angel" - Paulrogers
I
Subtraction.
/blatant sig copy is blatant
105/105/105 obtained! b:cute0 -
For a non-native speaker, you write English exceptionally well. No, this is not sarcastic; I'm honestly commending you.MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »I'm not a native speaker and thus bound to ocasionally make such mistakes. I can assure you i won't ever forget the correct spelling of whether again.Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
~Spazz~0 -
YAY The herc discussion finally came to an end.
NOW DON'T START IT UP AGAIN!!!b:angry
I have once again updated the original post.
If you have any Helpful information to add, (in the direction of my original post, not another battle about who's better), Please do so.
For the GM's and Mods, God I wish I could delete pages 4 through 40 and sticky it, but that can't happen I guess.Take the time to look for your answer before you post like an idiot.
There are two kinds of people in this world...
There are those who panic,
And then there is us.
~ Sarah Jane Smith0 -
Allisandre - Sanctuary wrote: »YAY The herc discussion finally came to an end.
NOW DON'T START IT UP AGAIN!!!b:angry
I have once again updated the original post.
If you have any Helpful information to add, (in the direction of my original post, not another battle about who's better), Please do so.
For the GM's and Mods, God I wish I could delete pages 4 through 40 and sticky it, but that can't happen I guess.
First of all, way to resurrect a dead thread. It wasn't officially a necro, but it might as well have been.
Second of all, why would they sticky this thread? It's quite useless, and everything in it has been mentioned before. You said nothing of importance or shocking revelation in the original post, and it was only a matter of time before it degraded into such a stupid thread.
Third, the game is dead.0 -
b:shockedMANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »1. Barbs tanking 59. I've got near 5k mag def, 1 k phys and 3k hp unbuffed. I can't tank 59. Leaving aggro out of it (and i do some very decent damage for a veno my level) i'll need an exceptionally good Cleric to even stand a chance. Add DD that can effectively manage aggro and you'll realize in a PUG chances are bad we'll manage. Most robes at this level range don't even skill Alpha Male into their genies and they're generally not prepared to handle these bosses. I've seen far more Sins succeed at the job than all robe classes combined. And i've been running 59 for months now... Barbs and decent BMs are usually safer, i don't mean to carry on the misperception but practical reality does require that you consider the actual capabilities of players on the field, not what they should accomplish under ideal conditions.
i read this one, then checked date to make sure i dont necro, then:
ZOMG what happened to PWI???!!!!!oneone...
When I was in 70s i had ok gear, about 3k hp unbuffed, and my genie never had AM - but 59 was one bh I loved, because it was so ridiculously easy after 51... Very often did 59 (only qianji or drake back then) in 2 ppl squad with my BM friend, Chilo - and she tanked qianji and i tanked drake. Yes, on drake she waited patiently until I built some aggro then joined in because i resisted dot so much better we finished him faster that way, than if she tanked from the beginning and i had to puri her all the time and not dd at all. ANY arcane makes better tank on drake - or gluttonix because they are almost the same - than bm or archer or sin exactly because this stacking dot damage, and imo noone can beat wizzy with good cleric there, as wizard has: fire shield, high mag resists even without the shield, and damage high enough to keep aggro from anyone but morons who want to show off and would steal on purpose. Back then id take wizard even before barb to tank these bossess... as for tanking other three bossess in 59 1st choice: barb, 2nd - wizard, 3rd - bm (unless fist, then before wizard), 4th - psy, 5th -archer/sin (good dps but pain to heal), 6th cleric/veno (low damage - hard to build and keep aggro)
and i had some great runs with only arcanes where we all went all out and played aggro pingpong for fun, because with our resists we could safely do that
so my question is: do people learn their classess at all nowadays? skills? dot vs direct damage? melee vs ranged? defense? elemental advantage?...
b:cry
note to self: on alts avoid random squads like a plague
b:beatup[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Aya__ - Heavens Tear wrote: »b:shocked
i read this one, then checked date to make sure i dont necro, then:
ZOMG what happened to PWI???!!!!!oneone...
When I was in 70s i had ok gear, about 3k hp unbuffed, and my genie never had AM - but 59 was one bh I loved, because it was so ridiculously easy after 51... Very often did 59 (only qianji or drake back then) in 2 ppl squad with my BM friend, Chilo - and she tanked qianji and i tanked drake. Yes, on drake she waited patiently until I built some aggro then joined in because i resisted dot so much better we finished him faster that way, than if she tanked from the beginning and i had to puri her all the time and not dd at all. ANY arcane makes better tank on drake - or gluttonix because they are almost the same - than bm or archer or sin exactly because this stacking dot damage, and imo noone can beat wizzy with good cleric there, as wizard has: fire shield, high mag resists even without the shield, and damage high enough to keep aggro from anyone but morons who want to show off and would steal on purpose. Back then id take wizard even before barb to tank these bossess... as for tanking other three bossess in 59 1st choice: barb, 2nd - wizard, 3rd - bm (unless fist, then before wizard), 4th - psy, 5th -archer/sin (good dps but pain to heal), 6th cleric/veno (low damage - hard to build and keep aggro)
and i had some great runs with only arcanes where we all went all out and played aggro pingpong for fun, because with our resists we could safely do that
so my question is: do people learn their classess at all nowadays? skills? dot vs direct damage? melee vs ranged? defense? elemental advantage?...
b:cry
note to self: on alts avoid random squads like a plague
b:beatup
Actually, i may have to clarify this one. I've recently found out is actually very easy for me to tank all bosses in 59 with the aid of a COMPETENT Cleric... Apparently i had been terribly unlucky in all my tries previous to writing this post... Yea, that's the chance you take when squadding a PUG. Then again it is what makes this game fun. The funny thing is that now that i have been volunteering to tank 59 my ofers have been mostly declined, most Clerics doing PUGs will actually rather wait 20-30 mins for a Barb than take their chances on a robe tanking...0 -
If a high level veno is too poor to afford a herc, then they are bad.LadyFianait - Dreamweaver wrote: »Just because a higher level Veno doesn't have a Herc doesn't mean they are bad; It means they are poor. High level skills don't come cheap; and if they are young (parents don't always buy PW Cards) or don't have a job that allows extra spending money for things like an online game, getting the SoF isn't an easy task.
Know why? Because it's the good venos that have been getting into TT runs, Nirvana runs, etc. If they can't make 80mil for a herc at higher levels, then they are bad.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
Well they may not be /bad/ but they surely can't solo a lot of bosses, especially in FC/TT. I know a few venos without a herc that are 8x+ and TT runs with them turned into pet cemetary. Lower HP compared to a Herc & most of these venos don't realize when their pet has aggro, they actually gotta heal the pet. >o>;
Like always herc'd veno > non-herc'd.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
˙buoɹʇs ǝq ןן,ı ʇɐɥʇ ɟןǝsʎɯ ןןǝʇ ı os0 -
Prepare to be accosted for that non-politically-correct bit of information.NiightmareXz - Harshlands wrote: »Well they may not be /bad/ but they surely can't solo a lot of bosses, especially in FC/TT. I know a few venos without a herc that are 8x+ and TT runs with them turned into pet cemetary. Lower HP compared to a Herc & most of these venos don't realize when their pet has aggro, they actually gotta heal the pet. >o>;
Like always herc'd veno > non-herc'd.0 -
NiightmareXz - Harshlands wrote: »Well they may not be /bad/ but they surely can't solo a lot of bosses, especially in FC/TT. I know a few venos without a herc that are 8x+ and TT runs with them turned into pet cemetary. Lower HP compared to a Herc & most of these venos don't realize when their pet has aggro, they actually gotta heal the pet. >o>;
Like always herc'd veno > non-herc'd.
Then they're bad.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
/inb4hercvsnohercroundover9000 b:byeMadness?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
This thing still isn't dead yet?
Christ almighty.
Herc veno by 90 = averagely geared veno in terms of pet.
Non-Herc veno by 90, but with a magmite with the same skills = on par with the Herc veno if only slightly lower due to lower health of pet, which can sometimes make a difference.
Non-Herc veno by 90 with no Herc nor same pet skills = under geared and therefore not on par with the Herc veno, simply because they cannot do as much.
Same rules apply to other classes by this point too. For instance:
5 aps archer = best
Near 5 aps = average
No -int nor any claws/fists = technically now below average
Deal with it.
/thread[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »This thing still isn't dead yet?
Ironically enough it is your commentary that proved too much of a provocation for me to let it die.Christ almighty.
Long live Xenu!Herc veno by 90 = averagely geared veno in terms of pet.
This is the point that no one argues and that apparently some people can't get it through their heads is no argument at all. Yes, hercs may be expected at this level range and yes, most venos likely do conform to this standard. If it makes you happy simply refuse to squad unherc'ed 90+ venos and move on. Now, whether an herc is ACTUALLY NECESSARY remains a different matter entirely.Non-Herc veno by 90, but with a magmite with the same skills = on par with the Herc veno if only slightly lower due to lower health of pet, which can sometimes make a difference.
Certainly not, i've tired of repeating this. Base stats make an enormous difference, a Mag with herc buffs is nowhere near an herc. It will only be able to handle such tasks as a same level herc can manage with a relatively large safety margin. An herc cannot be substituted by such pets when it comes to either tanking or handling multiples, which are the only two specialized uses you would require an herc for.Non-Herc veno by 90 with no Herc nor same pet skills = under geared and therefore not on par with the Herc veno, simply because they cannot do as much.
An unherc'ed veno may be considered undergeared at this point but that has no bearing on wether a player can actually perform his/her class job. I've recently completed Frost with a mostly 7x squad and found most of the arguments about herc providing a larger safety margin to have been vastly exaggerated by some posters. Speed and efficiency would be far more important considerations to a high level squad and that issue i have already repeatedly addressed throughout this thread, something which i may also point out has gone without controversy. I strongly suspect i may find much the same situation in RB... Which leaves only Nirvana and as far as i know it isn't being tanked by hercs. Now, i may be mistaken on this, and please feel free to point it out, a discussion of actual gameplay might actually make for a nice change of pace...Same rules apply to other classes by this point too. For instance:
5 aps archer = best
Near 5 aps = average
No -int nor any claws/fists = technically now below average
Funny you should bring this up, better dps output is precisely the reason herc does not make for an ideal choice in most scenarios...Deal with it.
Stop trying to justify noobish and fail attitudes. If you don't want to take unherc'ed venos on your runs, simply don't. But don't presume this is founded on actual gameplay reasons. the only arguments that have been forwarded on this respect have been it's "safer" (i hardly doubt an herc is going to succeed where a 90+ squad fails) and that it is expected by most people. Most Americans believe alien abductions to be real.../thread
b:chuckle0 -
All I have to say is, if hercs did not exist in PW, then people would probably say next not having a magmite or glacial walker is undergeared. Either way like I have said on this forum multiple times, people are brainwashed by this games "beliefs".
Example's THAT I HAVE COME ACROSS
If you dont have interval gear at 9x, you fail( I have only 2 pieces b:cry)
If you dont have a herc by 9x, you fail
If your a barb and dont have at least 10k vit by 9x you fail
If you dont have +5 refines on your 9x gear you fail(does this mean I failb:surrender?)
And finally....
If you dont agree with the majority here on the forums you should uninstall the game......0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Stop trying to justify noobish and fail attitudes. If you don't want to take unherc'ed venos on your runs, simply don't. But don't presume this is founded on actual gameplay reasons. the only arguments that have been forwarded on this respect have been it's "safer" (i hardly doubt an herc is going to succeed where a 90+ squad fails) and that it is expected by most people. Most Americans believe alien abductions to be real...
Herc is not needed on FCC runs. It is not there to guarantee a safer run. It's there to save barbs repair bills. I know that from experience. Next time I'm going to tell the squad to let me tank the bosses (I can do that, with and without a barb buff) and take a good non-herced veno who can actually amp (most venos I've seen in FCC can't do that) with us.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
IronWood and Amp should be constantly active. b:surrender
My IceMite gets so owned in Frost but wreckes havok in BH29. Oh yah baby!!! b:dirtytatuaje: grinding mobs and zhenning ???
frankieraye:All right, I admit it, it's a bit retro. lol.0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Moronic stuff
You clearly didn't read my commentary then otherwise you would realise I also have never said an un-Herc'd veno is a bad one. Learn to read everything if you're going to comment on what people say.
Here's my opinions to keep you happy and shut you up, because your assumptions are stupid.
1) A veno without a Herc does not make a bad player, much like an archer without 5aps does not make a bad player.
2) A veno with a Herc simply has more uses then one without, much like an archer with 5aps has more uses then one without.
3) The only good veno is a veno who knows how to play her class, much like the only good archer is an archer who knows when STA is called for and when they can't tank even with their glorious 5aps or otherwise.
4) Therefore I mind neither Herc'd nor un-Herc'd venos in my squads, but would prefer the skilled Herc veno over the un-Herc'd one simply because the extent of what they can do has been improved.
Go assume more that I hate on un-Herc'd venos, go fail at reading comprehension some more and and carry on trying to pretend I was trying to justify that the people who said Herc'd venos = not fail and all others suck at all.
Because nowhere in this thread have I justified that attitude and if you had bothered to read what I have said in the past (which you claim to have done, yet you then claim I defend the stupid idea the only good veno is one with a Herc) then you would realise I never agreed with the morons who said the only good veno is one with a Herc.
I had some mild respect for you and your points up until this point, and I had agreed with most of what you said. However, after this post and your clear lack of reading and your clear desire to simply argue with anybody who seems to even be considering disagreeing with you, I can see that respect was very much misplaced.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »You clearly didn't read my commentary then otherwise you would realise I also have never said an un-Herc'd veno is a bad one. Learn to read everything if you're going to comment on what people say.
Here's my opinions to keep you happy and shut you up, because your assumptions are stupid.
1) A veno without a Herc does not make a bad player, much like an archer without 5aps does not make a bad player.
2) A veno with a Herc simply has more uses then one without, much like an archer with 5aps has more uses then one without.
3) The only good veno is a veno who knows how to play her class, much like the only good archer is an archer who knows when STA is called for and when they can't tank even with their glorious 5aps or otherwise.
4) Therefore I mind neither Herc'd nor un-Herc'd venos in my squads, but would prefer the skilled Herc veno over the un-Herc'd one simply because the extent of what they can do has been improved.
Go assume more that I hate on un-Herc'd venos, go fail at reading comprehension some more and and carry on trying to pretend I was trying to justify that the people who said Herc'd venos = not fail and all others suck at all.
Because nowhere in this thread have I justified that attitude and if you had bothered to read what I have said in the past (which you claim to have done, yet you then claim I defend the stupid idea the only good veno is one with a Herc) then you would realise I never agreed with the morons who said the only good veno is one with a Herc.
I had some mild respect for you and your points up until this point, and I had agreed with most of what you said. However, after this post and your clear lack of reading and your clear desire to simply argue with anybody who seems to even be considering disagreeing with you, I can see that respect was very much misplaced.
Did i call you names or insulted you in any other way? Other than your clinging to an elitist standard i have no problem with the opinion you have worded in your reply, but the post i responded to was dismissive and arrogant. It presumed to end an argument by settling the matter. Without the characterizations you have further provided it implies a position whether you meant it or not. And i responded punctually rather than simply abound on the generalizations you do indulge in. So before you criticize others on their reading comprehension i would stronly suggest you take a good look at your own skills. As for your being offensive i'll just let it go for now, i meant it when i said i was done flaming.
Edited out the ranting...0 -
Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »You clearly didn't read my commentary then otherwise you would realise I also have never said an un-Herc'd veno is a bad one. Learn to read everything if you're going to comment on what people say.
Here's my opinions to keep you happy and shut you up, because your assumptions are stupid.
1) A veno without a Herc does not make a bad player, much like an archer without 5aps does not make a bad player.
2) A veno with a Herc simply has more uses then one without, much like an archer with 5aps has more uses then one without.
3) The only good veno is a veno who knows how to play her class, much like the only good archer is an archer who knows when STA is called for and when they can't tank even with their glorious 5aps or otherwise.
4) Therefore I mind neither Herc'd nor un-Herc'd venos in my squads, but would prefer the skilled Herc veno over the un-Herc'd one simply because the extent of what they can do has been improved.
Go assume more that I hate on un-Herc'd venos, go fail at reading comprehension some more and and carry on trying to pretend I was trying to justify that the people who said Herc'd venos = not fail and all others suck at all.
Because nowhere in this thread have I justified that attitude and if you had bothered to read what I have said in the past (which you claim to have done, yet you then claim I defend the stupid idea the only good veno is one with a Herc) then you would realise I never agreed with the morons who said the only good veno is one with a Herc.
I had some mild respect for you and your points up until this point, and I had agreed with most of what you said. However, after this post and your clear lack of reading and your clear desire to simply argue with anybody who seems to even be considering disagreeing with you, I can see that respect was very much misplaced.
QFT and I felt the same way -_-
Oh yea and *facepalm* @ OP for ressing dead thread.0 -
Oneji - Heavens Tear wrote: »
If your a barb and dont have at least 10k vit by 9x you fail
Personally, any barb that doesn't have 10k VIT by the mid-80's should rethink being a barb. I play conservatively, I've hardly refined anything, and I've got 10,632. If I was serious about it, I'd have 12k and I'm only level 82.
And no, I don't have a lot of trouble holding aggro.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=c07dda2efd70764d
P.S. I don't CS on this toon at all. any gold I ever got was purchased with in-game coin.0 -
Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »QFT and I felt the same way -_-
Maybe you guys can start a support group...0 -
MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »Maybe you guys can start a support group...
That's true; I have a support group for everything I can possibly agree with someone else in. I even have a support group for trolls because it's so hard to find other trolls on this forum. *rolls eyes* Or maybe we can just start a support group for anyone who doesn't agree to the letter everything you say, or do not have the utmost respect for you and your walls of text, since obviously the people not on your side are in league together.0 -
Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »obviously the people not on your side are in league together.
I knew it! You guys are part of some sort of evil league, and i think i even know which one since i can recognize your logic and argument style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9A0YCUCZbI
So Ha! You've been unmasked. b:chuckle0 -
I just found this thread. So I'm a little late coming into the conversation. The only contribution I can make is this. With gear being what it is, people can fill all sorts of roles. To think you can boil down classes into a specific skill set just makes it an ignorant topic. The idea that a mage class tanking BH59 is better, then saying that other jobs shouldn't change shows a conflict of ideas.
As far as the rest of it goes. The people not learning to play their class is true. Archers pulling aggro is the oldest group dilemma in pwi. For those of you curious how not to kill a squad when a DD pulls aggro. Let the DD die. It is really that simple. Just heal the barb. If the cleric and barb survive then I guarantee you it's gonna be alright.0 -
Jensul - Sanctuary wrote: »For those of you curious how not to kill a squad when a DD pulls aggro. Let the DD die. It is really that simple. Just heal the barb. If the cleric and barb survive then I guarantee you it's gonna be alright.
+1
Oh dear, this thread is still breathing... barely b:chuckleMadness?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Ok I've updated the main post again. Included info on the critstrike rate arrows.
Does anyone have any other helpful tips?Take the time to look for your answer before you post like an idiot.
There are two kinds of people in this world...
There are those who panic,
And then there is us.
~ Sarah Jane Smith0 -
i do! i do!
lets not necro threads![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
remember our fallen heroes0
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