Why can't Archers Use Daggers?

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

well for me it would be while waiting for dailys to reset or when im avoiding doing quests.... maybe if im hlping a lower lvl person and i dont wanna waste ammo

Asperitas - Lost City

Sheeeba - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have no idea why anyone would WANT to put a bow on a sin or daggers on an archer. If you have any idea how to play said class, it shouldn't even enter your mind to use a wep that's not meant for your class.

For some people it's fun and liberating to do things outside the norm. It's also how new things are discovered. By doing things previously unthought of.

ChaseyLain - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

why don't you actually read what people who don't think it's overpowered have to say. you don't do insane damage with daggers just because it's dex based. for the record, archers already have melee physical skills based on their ranged weapons (winged pledge). you know, the same ranged weapons with much, much, higher weapon attack than daggers that also gets boosted by masteries. so, after about 200m spent on your gear, daggers can finally match the DPS of a physical melee skill archers already have.

i love how the quotes you presented just claim **** without any solid proof to back them up. yet there are equally as many posts about how it wouldn't imbalance PvP and you don't even acknowledge them.

when a heavy approaches an archer, it seems that only you would equip daggers and try to fight it out with normal attacks. you're facing up against classes that have more hp, more defense, weapons that can zerk, and able to use full range of their skills (stuns, amps, debuffs) and you're going to restricted yourself to only using physical attacks? news flash: it's called mother****ing metal! learn to use it! does light armor at melee range mean anything to you? what further convincing do you need? look at how many survival skills assassins have.

again, i assert that daggers being available to all classes would only be for fun and useful for PvE.

Did you seriously just compare winged pledge to the DPS of a dagger? I'm not even going to waste the time going there. Answer me this one question and it will end this entire argument.

How will daggers be useful for PvE that you would not be able to use any existing weapon you have available to do the same job?

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear

This thread can go on forever but at the end of the day nothing will change, the dev's don't read this, they aren't going to be particularly bother over some QQ'ing archers or even the archer's who have put up well stated arguments for having them.

You wont get daggers anytime soon if at all so get on with what you have and deal with it.

Yes assassins have the use of bows and yes some will argue this is unfair etc etc blah blah blah but the TB have alot of other things aswell no other class can have its been said from the start the TB have been pampered way to much and no other class gets even half the help they do.

Annastasia - Lost City

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lol i dont know why you ppl are getting so worked up bout this b:chuckle yes im an archer yes i think it would be pretty frickin sweet to use daggers yes i think all wepons should be all class if your a veno and you wanna rock a Xbow go for it but without the skills it aint much trust me i use Xbow and if i didnt have the mag atks i wouldnt use it it does a lil more dmg than the regular bow but is alot slower.... so if ya wanna give it a try be my guest as for the daggers were not asking to have special skills made up we just want some thing that suplements our class and makes the game more diverse hell i dont care if i cant use any skill with them i just wanna play with them its my belife that if you put a wepon in game let everyone use it.... now i just know someone is gonna say so ya want to use pets to mr archer well the anser is yes it would be nice but pets are a venos skill basicly so just let everyone use every thing then everyone can quit QQing and get back to haveing fun on the game

i totally agree! geez! the stuff people dream up to starting whining about is amazing.

Quilue - Sanctuary

ChaseyLain - Lost City wrote: »

Did you seriously just compare winged pledge to the DPS of a dagger? I'm not even going to waste the time going there. Answer me this one question and it will end this entire argument.

How will daggers be useful for PvE that you would not be able to use any existing weapon you have available to do the same job?

it doesn't cost mana at melee range if you don't want to suffer penalty and would hit reasonably hard. honestly most of the time you wouldn't even need it, but sometimes **** happens like i have to tank a melee boss or something for people and it sucks having to have to suffer melee penalty or hit 800 a hit with fists. that's all you would use daggers for. because it doesn't matter most of the time, it won't be imbalanced if implemented.

ChaseyLain - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

it doesn't cost mana at melee range if you don't want to suffer penalty and would hit reasonably hard. honestly most of the time you wouldn't even need it, but sometimes **** happens like i have to tank a melee boss or something for people and it sucks having to have to suffer melee penalty or hit 800 a hit with fists. that's all you would use daggers for. because it doesn't matter most of the time, it won't be imbalanced if implemented.

Thank you. Time to end the thread. Before you stated that dagger damage wouldnt compare to the skills you could use with your ranged weapon. Now you are stating that dagger would make your melee damage higher. Your contradicting statements nullify your opinion seeing as you will say anything to get your way just like a spoiled little child.

Sneakret - Heavens Tear

I have yet to see the contradiction here as what I believe was mentioned only pertained to the mathematical values of comparing winged pledge spamming or something like that with that of using NO MP and using a physical attack.

While the option for fists is viable it generally means a fair swap out in damage in order to handle things up close. Daggers fit into a build that better fits towards an archers general stat set up as well. Keep in mind the developers new off the bat that by allowing daggers to be used between class there would have been significantly less sins as many archers would have just refined and added the new weapon that they wanted from the expansion to their arsenal and passed on the new classes all together.

Ex: daggers- all class super brambles - venos
Could you imagine all the crying that would go on if the venomancers were to obtain the ranged bramble just because it fits into what they have skill wise already.

ChaseyLain - Lost City wrote: »

just like a spoiled little child.

Lastly if you intend to make a thread to degrade another person solely this is covered as causing grief, keep small emotional additions to a flame post out of the discussion please. It's more than reasonable to make a valid point without slapping on added metaphors that have only the intent to incite more flames.

eatwithspoons

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This thread can go on forever but at the end of the day nothing will change, the dev's don't read this, they aren't going to be particularly bother over some QQ'ing archers or even the archer's who have put up well stated arguments for having them.

You wont get daggers anytime soon if at all so get on with what you have and deal with it.

Yes assassins have the use of bows and yes some will argue this is unfair etc etc blah blah blah but the TB have alot of other things aswell no other class can have its been said from the start the TB have been pampered way to much and no other class gets even half the help they do.

Well the poll speaks for itself, plus this was not posted in the suggestions section. That was the OPs choice b:surrender

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear

eatwithspoons wrote: »

Well the poll speaks for itself, plus this was not posted in the suggestions section. That was the OPs choice b:surrender

Wow i feel special that you picked my post to quote, thanks spoons b:thanks.

Yea it does, so im guessing if going by the poll alone even though it is a small faction of the entire PW community will be against it as well and wow all these pages and not even in the right section b:chuckle.

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Wow i feel special that you picked my post to quote, thanks spoons b:thanks.

Yea it does, so im guessing if going by the poll alone even though it is a small faction of the entire PW community will be against it as well and wow all these pages and not even in the right section b:chuckle.

Hey, we live in America, where most of decisions that affect our country are decided by a group of 100, maybe 200 or so people. You sayin' that polls like these being incredulous is a direct attack on the American way of life.

b:scorn

...go back to Russia.

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hey, we live in America, where most of decisions that affect our country are decided by a group of 100, maybe 200 or so people. You sayin' that polls like these being incredulous is a direct attack on the American way of life.

b:scorn

...go back to Russia.

Read it again i was agreeing with spoons, saying that the poll will be a general sample of the entire PW community.

Russia? No thanks im happy with England b:chuckle.

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Read it again i was agreeing with spoons, saying that the poll will be a general sample of the entire PW community.

Russia? No thanks im happy with England b:chuckle.

I know what you were sayin'...I's just trollin'.

b:pleased

...and lucky...I wanna live in...not-America.

b:surrender

Though Akibahara is my city of choice.

Quilue - Sanctuary

ChaseyLain - Lost City wrote: »

Thank you. Time to end the thread. Before you stated that dagger damage wouldnt compare to the skills you could use with your ranged weapon. Now you are stating that dagger would make your melee damage higher. Your contradicting statements nullify your opinion seeing as you will say anything to get your way just like a spoiled little child.

no, read the first sentence in my quote again

it doesn't cost mana at melee range if you don't want to suffer penalty and would hit reasonably hard.

not going to burn charm on Winged Pledge for 20min fighting a boss. sorry

i used Winged Pledge as an example to prove it's not OP in PvP. the example was to prove that if you really really had to fight someone at melee range with physical damage and unless you have over -0.25s interval, wing spells > dagger, which is kind of sad. so you know, since you're trying to kill someone, mana cost is kind of not an issue. how the hell is that an excuse?

Annastasia - Lost City

Daggers would be OP for archers. Any archer with even a little intelligence can see that. Why you think these few are arguing so hard that they want daggers. They want an unfair advantage over others.

Its a balancing issue plain and simple. If archers are given a good melee weapon that allows them to stat pure damage/crit then melee characters have the right to get a ranged weapon based on STR/VIT or whatever stat they want as well. Casters will have the right to get a melee weapon based on MAG. Without doing all of that then its UNBALANCING. After doing all of that then where does it stop? Some class will still complain that they want something else added to make them stronger and it will be a neverending cycle.

Leave daggers as they are now. Assassin only. There is no reason for an archer to want them other than they know that it would make them more powerful at every aspect of the game.

Asperitas - Lost City

Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »

Its a balancing issue plain and simple. If archers are given a good melee weapon that allows them to stat pure damage/crit then melee characters have the right to get a ranged weapon based on STR/VIT or whatever stat they want as well. Casters will have the right to get a melee weapon based on MAG. Without doing all of that then its UNBALANCING. After doing all of that then where does it stop? Some class will still complain that they want something else added to make them stronger and it will be a neverending cycle.

Assassins are supposed to be a close range melee class, basing their strengths off dex. They have high crit, and high damage at close range, sacrificing armor. That's all good and dandy. But the key word is they are close range fighers. That said, it is only logical that if they wanted to use a long range weapon (bows), they would have to either:

1. siphon stats from dex
2. live with **** damage

Funny thing is, they don't have to. The bow lets them have long range damage based on the stats they already put into - dex. According to you, this would be OP because assassins were meant to be close-range heavy hitters. They were never meant to be long range snipers. Having a bow lets them take advantage of their high crits and high damage even at long range.

Now if you can flip that around and say archers would be OP because daggers partially eliminate their weakness, think again.

Archers at close range with daggers:

1. Light armor
2. No skills
3. No masteries

How are they going to survive? Simple. They don't.

If anything, assassins at long range with a bow will be more OP than an archer at close range with a dagger.

Range>melee. At least with an assassin, even if your damage sucks with a bow, you dont have to have the enemy turn around and smash you in the face.

Like they said, it's a personal choice whether to stray from the bounds of the norm or not. Some people like me don't like to play a game by the book, and we'd rather go and find our own thing to do.

If it really is OP, please post up some massive numbers of archers with daggers, like someone did, to support your point.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

@Anna
I can see your point but archers getting daggers is as OP as assassins getting bows, if not less as pointed out by Asp. Besides we would just a small boost in damage from daggers than from claws/fists. As for stating we can stack -interval gear and attain great attack rates, guess what, assassins can do do the same if they want and attack with a bow. A lvl80 sin can very well use a Soulsmasher and at 95 a Heaven Shatterer if they wanted to, without compromising on their stats. Isnt that OP now?

The point here is to remove the class restriction on the weapons (Daggers and Artifacts) and not the stat requirements. Many of the people forgot what was being asked.

If a BM/Barb/Cleric/Veno/Wizard/Psychic wanted to use a dagger, he/she should very well be allowed to if he/she meets the stat reqs. obviously none of their skills would work but hey, thats the same for any classes using another's weapon.

For all those asking for the stat reqs to be changed in lieu of this, please learn to understand what is being asked here.

PS: Maybe the tone of asking led to the misunderstanding.

Annastasia - Lost City

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

Assassins are supposed to be a close range melee class, basing their strengths off dex. They have high crit, and high damage at close range, sacrificing armor. That's all good and dandy. But the key word is they are close range fighers. That said, it is only logical that if they wanted to use a long range weapon (bows), they would have to either:

1. siphon stats from dex
2. live with **** damage

Funny thing is, they don't have to. The bow lets them have long range damage based on the stats they already put into - dex. According to you, this would be OP because assassins were meant to be close-range heavy hitters. They were never meant to be long range snipers. Having a bow lets them take advantage of their high crits and high damage even at long range.

Now if you can flip that around and say archers would be OP because daggers partially eliminate their weakness, think again.

Archers at close range with daggers:

1. Light armor
2. No skills
3. No masteries

How are they going to survive? Simple. They don't.

If anything, assassins at long range with a bow will be more OP than an archer at close range with a dagger.

Range>melee. At least with an assassin, even if your damage sucks with a bow, you dont have to have the enemy turn around and smash you in the face.

Like they said, it's a personal choice whether to stray from the bounds of the norm or not. Some people like me don't like to play a game by the book, and we'd rather go and find our own thing to do.

If it really is OP, please post up some massive numbers of archers with daggers, like someone did, to support your point.

OK I'll dumb it down for you a bit...

Archers are meant to be a ranged class correct?
Archers have very high damage at long range where no melee class can touch them correct?
Archers (good) will have already ticked the charm of a melee class long before they even get in range correct?

Pretty sure no one can argue with any of those points. Now lets look at an archer with a dagger...

Archer spams metal and kites melee character til they get close having already ticked their charm.
Archer switches to dagger when they get in melee range where archer had their 1 weakness.
Archer now crits with dagger and does VERY GOOD damage yet til they finish off melee character.
Archer laughs at melee character who is whining about daggers being OP and tells them to reroll this game has been renamed to ArcherWorld.


Now look at assassins with bows...
Assasins can do good damage with bows. YES
Assasins have a very short range with bows because of no bow mastery. YES

The biggest difference is while an assassin can do pretty good damage with a bow if you are looking at PVP its completely useless. The only characters you might even bother to use a bow on are melee characters which means their high physical resistance makes their damage with a bow next to nothing. They have no chance of ticking the charm of a even remotely decent melee character with a bow. Against casters where they would do decent damage they would be insane to use a bow. While they might do good damage with it their main damage will be done up close with their skills. No caster in their right mind would ever run in to melee range on an assassin who wanted to sit back and use a bow. They will sit back and nuke them to death while the assassin is only able to do average damage in return. PVE yes it could be a big advantage for an assassin to deal damage before the mob runs up to them. PVP its completely useless.

PVP
Bows for assassins make them weaker. Daggers for archers make them stronger.
PVE
Bows for assassins make them stronger. Daggers for archers make them stronger.

See the difference? Daggers for archers would make up for the 1 weakness that they have. Without that weakness archers would be virtually impossible to beat.

For your argument of some people like to stray from the norm for fun tell me what you think about this example. If this is allowed next thing will be venos wanting to be able to use any weapon in foxform. Would you like to have a veno going into foxform with a dagger or zerk axe with their purge/amp/20%hp debuff/150%pdef/250% accuracy/200% melee damage increase coming at you? That argument is just as fair as a archer wanting to use a dagger if not more so. That would be by far more balanced of a change seeing as if they did use anything other than a magic weapon they would be unable to heal their pet anymore. Maybe venos want to stray from the norm and become a foxform melee character with a real weapon.

You people are only looking at 1 example and trying to make a case for your side. If you would step back and look at the big picture you would see how much this would change the dynamic of the game. If 1 class gets such a large benefit then other classes will also want changes which will improve their class and it will never end.

Annastasia - Lost City

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

For all those asking for the stat reqs to be changed in lieu of this, please learn to understand what is being asked here.

yes you are asking for a change which only truly benefits 1 class.

Konariraiden - Heavens Tear

All Archers arguing in this thread should shut their feather-wearin' traps and get back to Sharptoothin' BH bosses for the important classes, like me.

Asperitas - Lost City

Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »

Would you like to have a veno going into foxform with a dagger or zerk axe with their purge/amp/20%hp debuff/150%pdef/250% accuracy/200% melee damage increase coming at you? That argument is just as fair as a archer wanting to use a dagger if not more so. That would be by far more balanced of a change seeing as if they did use anything other than a magic weapon they would be unable to heal their pet anymore. Maybe venos want to stray from the norm and become a foxform melee character with a real weapon.

You mean like this?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rmqq86.png

For your example:

Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »

Archer spams metal and kites melee character til they get close having already ticked their charm.
Archer switches to dagger when they get in melee range where archer had their 1 weakness.
Archer now crits with dagger and does VERY GOOD damage yet til they finish off melee character.
Archer laughs at melee character who is whining about daggers being OP and tells them to reroll this game has been renamed to ArcherWorld.

There's videos of a BM pking with a unicorn bow. Now you imagine what an assassin might do with a heaven shatterer.

Hmmm...
Debuff procs from afar.
Teleports in and kills them.

Or even.

Assassin sparks and kills robe user. --> Now before you say "the robe user would own the fudge out of the sin first", in mass PVP your opponent's not always looking at you.

Sounds fun?

Not really.

I don't really see why this is a problem. Someone already did the math and pointed out the damage of an archer with a dagger is negligible. If you have math to disprove that, then I will concede defeat, but we're just spouting theoretical battles that get nowhere.

Annastasia - Lost City

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

You mean like this?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2rmqq86.png

that can be used in human form but not foxform so none of those bonuses i mentioned apply. and for your BM pking with a unicorn. killing level 30s doesnt count.

Asperitas - Lost City

Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »

that can be used in human form but not foxform so none of those bonuses i mentioned apply. and for your BM pking with a unicorn. killing level 30s doesnt count.

I'm not sure how effective it'd be, but you can debuff the opponent in fox form and switch to human to wield calamities no? I'm not too knowledgeable about venos.

As for the BM, I believe he plays on a PVE server. I doubt many level 30's go PVP mode. If I remember correctly, his name is Filet? Could be wrong, but someone posted a video of said BM some time ago.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

If you think archers are suddenly going to PK BMs and other melees at close range with daggers there isn't much point in continuing to post here.

In a game that allows clerics to use heavy armor and assassins to use bows it would make good sense for archers to use daggers. The developers are lazy though and don't feel like adding content for old classes when new classes attract more hype.

Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

I believe that BM plays on a PVE server. I doubt many level 30's go PVP mode. If I remember correctly, his name is Filet? Could be wrong, but someone posted a video of said BM some time ago.

There is some PvP on my server like ive said before im not heavily involved but i know alot of players camp west gate to kill the lowbies. So they could of been any level 30+.

Asperitas - Lost City

Of course they could be, but then of course they could have also been highbies (?). But my point is it's been done. Though not very effectively, but very possible and feasible.

Annastasia - Lost City

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you think archers are suddenly going to PK BMs and other melees at close range with daggers there isn't much point in continuing to post here.

In a game that allows clerics to use heavy armor and assassins to use bows it would make good sense for archers to use daggers. The developers are lazy though and don't feel like adding content for old classes when new classes attract more hype.

Strictly close range then no they wont. But they can crush them from range then switch to a dagger to finish the job after charm has been passed and almost dead. A dagger would give the added damage to finish the job after they get into range to finally attack.

Asperitas - Lost City

I don't now how credible this is and I don't have much experience PKing, so I could be wrong on this.

Looking at Transcend's video, with a +10 Heaven shatterer, her normal attack crit for 3k on an average 9x BM, and 1.8k on another.

I'm not sure how a dagger will get through half the HP of a BM or Barb if it's weaker than that.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »

Strictly close range then no they wont. But they can crush them from range then switch to a dagger to finish the job after charm has been passed and almost dead. A dagger would give the added damage to finish the job after they get into range to finally attack.

This point is moot since archers already have melee attacks that deal physical damage to kill almost-dead targets in close range (wingspan and pledge). Melee targets wear HA so the metal attacks are more viable anyway and those do full damage in close range. Daggers just add a bit of versatility, not OPness.

This game has been heavy in terms of versatility in the past when you frequently see heavy armor, light armor, and arcane venomancers despite them being a caster class.

The Tideborn weapons set a dangerous precedent. Is this versatility going to abandoned going forward?

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Annastasia - Lost City wrote: »

Strictly close range then no they wont. But they can crush them from range then switch to a dagger to finish the job after charm has been passed and almost dead. A dagger would give the added damage to finish the job after they get into range to finally attack.

not realy think bout it your primary argument is it is over powering for melee classes.... what kinda dmg does their armor survive best against phys.... well what kinda dmg does dagger do phys as well. do you think assassins would be half as good in pvp if they only stood there and did regular atks no they would get pwned sins survive cuz of their skills an archer pvping with daggers..... unless its low lvl ppl its not gonna be OP its gonna just make ppl laugh "oh look at the archer with his lil daggers stabbing a tank"