Why can't Archers Use Daggers?

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  • Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear
    Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear Posts: 118 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Im a Mag based class like a Veno..... Can I Have a Nix plz ?
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ChaseyLain - Lost City wrote: »
    I want to use axes/fists/spears/daggers in fox form. Until venos get that all you archers can **** off. If you get something new I want to use existing weapons in foxform.

    here's the difference: venos have melee mastery. you would hit harder than a bm wielding the same weapon. (inb4bms going wtf)

    would archers hit harder than sins with daggers? no lol they really wouldn't. just as sins wielding bows do not have bow mastery, archers wielding daggers wouldn't have dagger mastery,
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  • ChaseyLain - Lost City
    ChaseyLain - Lost City Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why is it to you when assassins use bows they do **** damage and have no skills for it while if an archer tries to use daggers they would do good damage?

    Assassins and archer have the same build and assassins are able to use bows fine. Any argument you have against archers using daggers should apply to assassins using bows and yet assassins can use bows fine.

    Yet another person who uses the argument that if someone else can have a toy like mine i want a toy like theirs. 3 year old logic should be left to 3 year olds. You just want archers to be overpowered and do not want any other class to have anything that you dont get.

    Archers whine more than anyone. QQ venos are OP. QQ assassins can use bows but i cant use daggers. QQ why should i have to add vit to survive. QQ why should i have to add STR to use a fist. QQ QQ QQ. Thats all archers ever do. Maybe they need to make STR bows for Melee classes and Magic Melee weapons for casters.

    How is it fair that only archers should get a new weapon so they have good ranged and melee damage while the other 5 original classes would get nothing? When you can legitimately answer that question i will support archers using daggers.
  • ChaseyLain - Lost City
    ChaseyLain - Lost City Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    here's the difference: venos have melee mastery. you would hit harder than a bm wielding the same weapon. (inb4bms going wtf)

    would archers hit harder than sins with daggers? no lol they really wouldn't. just as sins wielding bows do not have bow mastery, archers wielding daggers wouldn't have dagger mastery,



    whats your point if archers get to be OP than so can i. venos dont have dagger mastery either.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    doesn't matter, melee mastery applies to all weapon damage that you can wield in foxform. other class don't get such an all-inclusive mastery. (200% sage 150% demon?)

    how would archers be OP if they get to wield daggers? prove that an archer would be OP against heavies with daggers. go.
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    listen to ChaseyLain whin. use this use that in fox form blah blah blah. archer would be OP. BLAH BLAH BLAH b:laugh
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    open up all weapons to all class's. ChaseyLain u can use the daggers to for all i care.
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  • ChaseyLain - Lost City
    ChaseyLain - Lost City Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Boarian - Sanctuary wrote: »
    open up all weapons to all class's. ChaseyLain u can use the daggers to for all i care.



    If ALL classes can use ALL weapons with no restrictions then I'll support this. You just want to pick a weapon that only helps archers to become an all class weapon. A veno who uses a melee weapon can no longer heal a pet so they would in essence become a strictly melee build.
    Boarian - Sanctuary wrote: »
    listen to ChaseyLain whin. use this use that in fox form blah blah blah. archer would be OP. BLAH BLAH BLAH b:laugh

    As I have already stated before I am not really asking for venos to get to use any weapon just stating how stupid it is for archers to think they deserve a new weapon that allows them to do more damage than they already do. Looks like you dont like the flipside now do you? If you want to do melee damage add str and use fists.
  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Not weapons with out restrictions. that would be stupid. and archers with daggers would not be even more powerful than they already are. there would still be restrictions. ChaseyLain have u yet seen what a lvl 70+ assassin can do with a bow. If not let me tell u, its pretty good. basically they are archers with daggers. that unbalances not only archers. alot the class have both of each way. venos have range, melee and magic and so does wizzards and physics. daggers would just help with the increase in killing speed in pve. I really dont see them being really affective in pvp. I think a archer using daggers in pvp has a death wish.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ugh ok everyone take a look:

    assuming base damage from wielding dagger is calculated the same as ranged weapon...here goes: (correct me if wrong in anything)

    lets just assume npc weapons at 9x, base pure dex build with 400 dex, so we don't complicate things.

    lvl 95 daggers (400-600 weapon damage) on a lvl 100 archer:

    (100 + 500)*(1 + (2*400/3)/100) = 2200

    DPS from daggers: 2200*1.25 = 2750

    lvl 95 xbow (570-1329 weapon damage) on a lvl 100 archer:

    assuming sage:
    (100 + 950)*((1 + (2*400/3)/100) + 0.90) = 4795

    Winged pledge spam at melee: (1.4s for channel + cast times, with sage winged pledge having 1s cooldown)

    DPS from Sage Winged Pledge: (4795 + 3148)/1.4 = 5673.57

    assuming demon:
    (100 + 950)*((1 + (2*400/3)/100) + 0.75) = 4637.5

    Winged pledge spam at melee: (2s cooldown, lets assume a demon archer is only using winged pledge, even though in reality it would be combined with wingspan)

    DPS from Demon Winged Pledge: (4637.5 + 3148)/2 = 3892.75

    now...lets take -interval gear into account:
    2200 dagger damage per hit at 1.77 attacks per second approximately matches Demon Winged Pledge spam.

    oh i get it, it takes almost -0.25s interval from gear to match daggers with Demon Winged Pledge every 2s.

    what that also means:
    since 1.77 attacks per second is more than 40% attack speed increase, it would mean that daggers on Demon Spark would not match the raw damage from Demon Winged Pledge on Demon Spark, only matching that of Demon Winged Pledge on Demon Spark until you invest in -interval gear and again, that is assuming the archer is standing there and only using a Winged Pledge every 2s. We haven't even touched on Sage archers, or taken Wingspan into account.

    All in all, no archer in his/her right mind even uses Winged Pledge against a melee opponent; no archer in his/her right mind would use daggers against a melee opponent in PvP either. You know...something about heavy armor and dealing physical damage to it, just turns most archers off.

    like i said, archer wielding daggers, like any class wielding daggers, would be for fun and PvE only.

    so subsequent posters: until you can answer to that, your argument that daggers would make archers overpowered will now be considered utter and complete bull****
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  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    here's the difference: venos have melee mastery. you would hit harder than a bm wielding the same weapon. (inb4bms going wtf)
    wtf b:cry. Forget this BM, I'm making a fists veno.
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  • Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why is it to you when assassins use bows they do **** damage and have no skills for it while if an archer tries to use daggers they would do good damage?

    Assassins and archer have the same build and assassins are able to use bows fine. Any argument you have against archers using daggers should apply to assassins using bows and yet assassins can use bows fine.

    What would an assassin gain for using a bow? It's obvious what an archer gains.
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    They are built the same hunter. they gain range while maintaining decent damage.
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  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What would an assassin gain for using a bow? It's obvious what an archer gains.

    Hit melee mobs before they reach melee range.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ChaseyLain - Lost City wrote: »
    If ALL classes can use ALL weapons with no restrictions then I'll support this. You just want to pick a weapon that only helps archers to become an all class weapon. A veno who uses a melee weapon can no longer heal a pet so they would in essence become a strictly melee build.

    You're complaining you can't use magic spells with an axe? Do you expect archers to be able to use barrage with daggers?
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    alot of times thats not an option. respawns next to u or ur just right in the middle of a large group of them.
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    no one is argueing skill useage with other weapons Asterelle. im aware and i am ok with not being able to use my skills while daggers are in use. the debate is if archers should be able to use daggers since assassins can use bows.
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  • Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Boarian - Sanctuary wrote: »
    They are built the same hunter. they gain range while maintaining decent damage.

    Thanks for pointing out the obvious about the builds, glad you cleared that up b:thanks. They would have no need to, like all classes they will have a ranged attacked just like a BM has drakes ray. Sure some assassins mess around using a bow but if that's such a big problem for you guys you should learn to grow up, bow's are an all class weapon same as fists, glaives, spears, swords and all the other original weapons. Sure an assassin gains a slight advantage because they are dex based but it isn't that big of a deal for the amount of whining that has came out of your ****. I rarely see BM's raging that someone is using one of there weapons, like u say most archers will use fists so when your all complaining that 'assassins can use your bows Q.Q', 'why cant we use there daggers Q.Q', 'this is unfair they get to use bows, bow are our weapons not thiers Q.Q' just remember that you have used a BM's weapon plenty of times so shut up complaining and go play the game because i don't think daggers will ever get changed so deal with it please and thank you b:thanks.

    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Hit melee mobs before they reach melee range.

    I don't seen many high dex bm's hitting mobs with bows before they actually use there attacks and im sure an assassin would have a ranged attacked like i said before the BM has drakes ray.
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  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I don't seen many high dex bm's hitting mobs with bows before they actually use there attacks and im sure an assassin would have a ranged attacked like i said before the BM has drakes ray.

    BM's don't use it because we have phy Marrow and we AoE phy mobs. Sin has one ranged attack. Since LA makes them take more dmg from phy mobs, they can use Knife Throw then bow the mob as it comes then there's less HP for them to take out, results in less hits by the pure phy mob.
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  • Sneakret - Heavens Tear
    Sneakret - Heavens Tear Posts: 618 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    As I mentioned far earlier in here, please just allow some time for more to be added to the game. As of current most classes have 3+ weapons available to chose from that they can use with skills.

    Cleric-
    pataka
    glaive
    mag swrd
    wand

    Veno-
    (same as cleric)

    Wiz
    (same as cleric)

    BM
    Fist
    Axe
    Spear
    Dual Swords

    Barb
    Axe/Hammer
    (not much choice for barbs really) poor kitties, but we love you

    Psy
    Soulsphere

    Assassin
    Daggers


    Again give it some time as I'm sure there will be more added in to the game weapon wise that will be open to all classes that can equip them.
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    never said i had complaints about them using bows. i just wanted to know the logic behind no daggers. and not ur logic either hunter it makes no sense. If u dont like the disscussion (or whining as u call it) go to a different forum. Btw ive never used fists.
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  • Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Boarian - Sanctuary wrote: »
    never said i had complaints about them using bows. i just wanted to know the logic behind no daggers. and not ur logic either hunter it makes no sense. If u dont like the disscussion (or whining as u call it) go to a different forum. Btw ive never used fists.

    Did i say you specifically? No, it was meant as a whole to the archers on this thread.

    My logic? My logic is clear and simple to understand im sure i could explain this to a person who doesnt even play PW and they would say 'ahhhh that makes sense' or something similar, its just a pity your to stupid to realise that like myself and so many others have tried to put clear points across.

    I have nothing agaisnt this thread just 80% of your posts are whining and you use what the more intelligent archers have said as ammunition instead of using your own as as soon as you pressed enter your post was flawed in every angle.

    Congratulations on never using fists because you wont being using daggers either b:chuckle.
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  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Archers can't have Daggers. Daggers are an Assassin weapon that requires year of dedicated training of the most harsh and rigorous kind to become truly effective. Use by any lesser class is just laughable as they haven't the training to be able to do anything except slice their food into bite sized pieces with a dagger w/o cutting themselves to ribbons.

    So get over it. No daggers for you.

    ~S
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ^

    that's why no other class can get dagger mastery :o

    or use skills with daggers equipped
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  • Boarian - Sanctuary
    Boarian - Sanctuary Posts: 36 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Hunter it seems that when ur young mind has nothing better to say you start throwing in some insults. its laughableb:laughb:laughb:laughb:laugh
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  • ChaoticTears - Harshlands
    ChaoticTears - Harshlands Posts: 323 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Boarian - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i just wanted to know the logic behind no daggers.

    Logic is.. Devs dont want you to use daggers

    /thread
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sure some assassins mess around using a bow but if that's such a big problem for you guys you should learn to grow up, bow's are an all class weapon same as fists, glaives, spears, swords and all the other original weapons.

    To make sure we're on the same page, if some assassins want to mess around with bows thats great but now if some archers express the desire to mess around with daggers that forces you to be rude.
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  • Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear
    Hunter_PT - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Boarian - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Hunter it seems that when ur young mind has nothing better to say you start throwing in some insults. its laughableb:laughb:laughb:laughb:laugh

    Im impressed you made that all up by yourself now please be quiet, thanks.
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    To make sure we're on the same page, if some assassins want to mess around with bows thats great but now if some archers express the desire to mess around with daggers that forces you to be a total **** clown.

    I'm not being an **** clown im simply saying why you won't get them, u think this is wrong which makes me an **** clown.
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  • Sneakret - Heavens Tear
    Sneakret - Heavens Tear Posts: 618 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    b:laugh Ok so far in order to make everyone equally and unequally happy we have

    BMs
    Composite Bow - str based

    Venos
    Magic cordless Axes that fly around like keyblades

    Archers
    Advanced kitchen cutlery

    Barbs
    Beggin Strips, barbs don't know it's not bacon

    anything to add?
    I can see what you see not,
    Vision milky, then eyes rot.
    When you turn, they will be gone,
    Whispering their hidden song.
    Then you see what cannot be,
    Shadows move where light should be.
    Out of darkness, out of mind,
    Cast down into the Halls of the Blind.
  • Deceptistar - Sanctuary
    Deceptistar - Sanctuary Posts: 10,454 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Sneakret - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    b:laugh Ok so far in order to make everyone equally and unequally happy we have

    BMs
    Composite Bow - str based

    Venos
    Magic cordless Axes that fly around like keyblades

    Archers
    Advanced kitchen cutlery

    Barbs
    Beggin Strips, barbs don't know it's not bacon

    anything to add?
    what about clerics b:sad
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