Stuns are build specific btw, and while all TR's can cause some dazing, Scoundrels are the big culprits. Only their feat line allows the ridiculous amount of stuns going on, and most of that comes from the capstone.
Wrong. The capstone allows a MAXIMUM of 6s daze every 15 seconds to ONE target. Concussive Strikes provides the bulk of the shorter dazes IF the Scoundrel is built for high crit chance. And even that is just 2.5s every 5 seconds (50% uptime). So if a Scoundrel lucks out and chains a CS daze onto the end of a maximised SC daze he gets 8.5s daze and can't daze again for 5s. Not exactly permadaze and heavily reliant on crit chance.
The high duration of dazes comes from weaving Dazing Strike and Smokebomb into the rotation. Which all TRs have access to. In fact I've just been doing some testing on Preview specced as Executioner but using the same encounter loadout as my Scoundrel and in PvE I can still maintain daze for long periods.
tell me why then HR's are always able to use piercing blades? and yeah in PVE it will greatly reduce our damage, i love pve, They need to split PVE and PVP, stop "Balancing" both of them at the same time, its lazy... make changes for pvp only, and make powers do different things during each mode.
Piercing Blades is based on damage dealt and not a flat boost based on weapon damage. It gets mitigated at source by DR applied to the triggering damage. SO is completely unmitigated and procs the same amount of damage regardless of the damage dealt by the triggering strike. So powers which provide lots of small hits in a short space of time produce ridiculous amounts of unmitigated damage through SO.
Haha. First of all you missed with your premature assumptions by a moon to earth distance. It is funny how you try to impress to the forum members with overconfidence backed up by meaninigles numbers gained on some pug scrubs. Dude leave the sandbox and grow hairs where they should grow. It's not a kindergarden. Take your plastic shovel with ya mate! Now off you go.
go seek attention somewhere else hypocrite if TRs nailed you hard this isnt the right place to ask someone to inject morphine into you painful behind.
With stealth reveal then TR can get that advan combat and 100%crit change
thing need to be nerf next is 75% deflc sev and roll dodge, daze
I wanna ask what kind of glory is there for TR user to dominate PvP if your class hold title as OP?
more nerf will come but it's okay TR can l2p just like how they ask for other class
With stealth reveal then TR can get that advan combat and 100%crit change
thing need to be nerf next is 75% deflc sev and roll dodge, daze
I wanna ask what kind of glory is there for TR user to dominate PvP if your class hold title as OP?
more nerf will come but it's okay TR can l2p just like how they ask for other class
Yes, this 75% Deflection you're pulling out of your ***. It needs to be nerfed.
Then we give TR only 1 dodge roll.
Then we reduce damage to lower than Mod 4 stats.
Next, we'll replace TR daggers with spoons.
I don't think you'd be pleased if they removed TR entirely. You'd probably run off to the next strong class and want that nerfed into the ground.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
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sn0wt0ri0usMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 21Arc User
Piercing Blades is based on damage dealt and not a flat boost based on weapon damage. It gets mitigated at source by DR applied to the triggering damage. SO is completely unmitigated and procs the same amount of damage regardless of the damage dealt by the triggering strike. So powers which provide lots of small hits in a short space of time produce ridiculous amounts of unmitigated damage through SO.
so its still ok for rangers to be able to use PB all the time, when cryptic gives rogues the chance to use it (only in stealth btw) and then they deem it too powerful for rogues to use? totally balanced got it...
We have a cooldown on freeze (because you all complained)
It’s exactly the same for daze it should have a cooldown on player
I didn't realize our dazes were coming from powers that automatically homes-in with channeling and thus effectively undodgeable/avoidable, hits from 80' range, and has no cooldown.
If you'd agree to temporary cc-immunities on a universal scale so it applies to ALL CCs from ALL sources equally, then yeah, sure, why not. I don't get to chain-daze others so often, but then they don't get to chain CC us as well. Maybe my WK would finally be able to rotate Oghma's Token of Free Movement out of the slot for something that gives me better performance.
If you're asking this to apply to TR dazes only, then that's plain ol' sad double-standard and straight-up bias to the max. Get outta here.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
so its still ok for rangers to be able to use PB all the time, when cryptic gives rogues the chance to use it (only in stealth btw) and then they deem it too powerful for rogues to use? totally balanced got it...
As it is, PB is less of a threat than it was, and Shadowy Opportunity is plain broken. I've already showcased this in my vids, but any 'rapid fire' type of power turns OP with SO, and "but its only from stealth" doesn't matter at all, because with certain builds 'stealth depletion' becomes a non-issue. In the vid I made, I literally restealth at my whim.
So yeah, I think its OK rangers use PB all the time because it's no longer the unbelievable bullshi* "40% of premitigated value" it was. It respects DR by way of the proc-source respecting DR, and offers varying percentages of damage. This may seem like a good thing if you can ALWAYS do mega-damage, but typically 70~80% of HR damage relies on small, repetitive, ranged DoTs, so actual instances of PB doing any real damage is limited. It adds a good hefty damage if you're hit by stuff like Fox's Shift, but that's about it.
SO? No limits. Always constant damage no matter how strong the target's defense is. Fling fling fling fling a supposedly 'weak' at-will like CoS and it still adds 7~8k extra damage in a matter of few seconds.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
so its still ok for rangers to be able to use PB all the time, when cryptic gives rogues the chance to use it (only in stealth btw) and then they deem it too powerful for rogues to use? totally balanced got it...
PB and SO are NOT THE SAME. PB gets mitigated because the source damage is mitigated; SO is NOT MITIGATED BY ANYTHING. If an HR does zero damage with an attack then PB does zero damage; if a TR does zero damage with an attack then SO still does 75% of base weapon damage COMPLETELY UNMITIGATED.
Do you understand why SO is far more powerful than PB yet?
PB and SO are NOT THE SAME. PB gets mitigated because the source damage is mitigated; SO is NOT MITIGATED BY ANYTHING. If an HR does zero damage with an attack then PB does zero damage; if a TR does zero damage with an attack then SO still does 75% of base weapon damage COMPLETELY UNMITIGATED.
Do you understand why SO is far more powerful than PB yet?
here you are wrong, every tr would love to have piercing blade since it works better with encounters and hard hitting at wills.
im sure pb > so or at least i would gladly take it in its place if you think SO is too overpowered.
here you are wrong, every tr would love to have piercing blade since it works better with encounters and hard hitting at wills.
im sure pb > so or at least i would gladly take it in its place if you think SO is too overpowered.
I'm talking about how PB works now with the HR, not how it would work with a completely different class. And right now a TR with SO will generate better and more consistent DPS with SO than an HR will with PB, particularly against targets with significant DR.
Wrong. The capstone allows a MAXIMUM of 6s daze every 15 seconds to ONE target. Concussive Strikes provides the bulk of the shorter dazes IF the Scoundrel is built for high crit chance. And even that is just 2.5s every 5 seconds (50% uptime). So if a Scoundrel lucks out and chains a CS daze onto the end of a maximised SC daze he gets 8.5s daze and can't daze again for 5s. Not exactly permadaze and heavily reliant on crit chance.
The high duration of dazes comes from weaving Dazing Strike and Smokebomb into the rotation. Which all TRs have access to. In fact I've just been doing some testing on Preview specced as Executioner but using the same encounter loadout as my Scoundrel and in PvE I can still maintain daze for long periods.
Why you not mention how well TR on stack recovery stat?
PB and SO are NOT THE SAME. PB gets mitigated because the source damage is mitigated; SO is NOT MITIGATED BY ANYTHING. If an HR does zero damage with an attack then PB does zero damage; if a TR does zero damage with an attack then SO still does 75% of base weapon damage COMPLETELY UNMITIGATED.
Do you understand why SO is far more powerful than PB yet?
TR got 100% change crit,combat advan why need SO? 25% arpen is equal 2k+ stat
do you know HR offhand artifact only have 503 base damage even at legend And only proc melee skill?
TR got 100% change crit,combat advan why need SO? 25% arpen is equal 2k+ stat
do you know HR offhand artifact only have 503 base damage even at legend And only proc melee skill?
Look - you're either a troll or a moron. Either way I don't intend to interact with you any more.
The real culprit here is whoever gave TR so many tools to grief players in PvP. The root of the problem is the designer. As long as THEY do not understand the issue, they will never be able to come up with the right prescription. And is it fair to all the TR who invested time and money after TR has undergone "extensive" testing in PreviewShard, and nerfed after the buffs went live presumbably WAI? Is it also fair to the customer service officers trying to pacify customers for refunds and handling more cases of forum or ingame violations from people trying to vent their frustation? Even I can see that's it's both unfair and questionable. BUT that doesn't excuse and justify the OPness. Poor design lead to imbalance.
First thing first, balance the classes. Then accountability for the designer(s) who broke the game by either bonus reduction or some disciplinary action. Do a root cause impact analysis so that this do not resurface again.
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
Well, if this thread has any meaning then you will change something with it. If not it is obviously thread about nothing since u have 25 pages of feedback and yet you do what you would have done if this thread would not exist.
So since you still don't want to take away stealth depletion on attacks, then you should change this whole stealth reveal on this way:
First solution to problem: If you hit opponent You are visible to opponent but just to help him find you. It DOES NOT make you targetable. Enemy would have run to your position and then when he is in proper distance he can aim you. Let's say that if you attack enemy then you are visible but your character is red so enemy will know you are not targetable yet.
Second solution: If you are dazed/controlled/stunned/proned You are not visible in any circumstances unless player is close enough
For the moment stealth is useless. I was playing my TR in mod 2 when it was relatively good class. In mod 3 and 4 TR was in very bad position but i still played because tab wasn't useless. But right now in this mod, the fact that you have penalty for using stealth, and yet you don't have stealth anyway is just too much. Current situation is not acceptable. It has to be changed.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited December 2014
After MANY hours of testing with the TR, fighting as one and against them. I can legitimately say Concussive Strike should be removed from the game. I, a player who is not as experienced as some of the BEST TR's that I know can EASILY kill in PvP, and go 16 - 2. Concussive Strike grants me too much safety. Majority of the time my opponents can't even fight back against me because they're constantly dazed by my attacks, plus whatever other attacks coming from my allies. I HIGHLY suggest this feat is changed for something that supports the TR's allies. Not too mention I can lashing blade enemies for 20k+ with NO enchants in.
After MANY hours of testing with the TR, fighting as one and against them. I can legitimately say Concussive Strike should be removed from the game. I, a player who is not as experienced as some of the BEST TR's that I know can EASILY kill in PvP, and go 16 - 2. Concussive Strike grants me too much safety. Majority of the time my opponents can't even fight back against me because they're constantly dazed by my attacks, plus whatever other attacks coming from my allies. I HIGHLY suggest this feat is changed for something that supports the TR's allies. Not too mention I can lashing blade enemies for 20k+ with NO enchants in.
That would break the Scoundrel completely in PvE. So no thanks.
Also, CS is a maximum of 50% uptime on crits only. With a typical crit rate of around 35% that's an actual uptime of just 17.5%
Well, if this thread has any meaning then you will change something with it. If not it is obviously thread about nothing since u have 25 pages of feedback and yet you do what you would have done if this thread would not exist.
So since you still don't want to take away stealth depletion on attacks, then you should change this whole stealth reveal on this way:
First solution to problem: If you hit opponent You are visible to opponent but just to help him find you. It DOES NOT make you targetable. Enemy would have run to your position and then when he is in proper distance he can aim you. Let's say that if you attack enemy then you are visible but your character is red so enemy will know you are not targetable yet.
Second solution: If you are dazed/controlled/stunned/proned You are not visible in any circumstances unless player is close enough
For the moment stealth is useless. I was playing my TR in mod 2 when it was relatively good class. In mod 3 and 4 TR was in very bad position but i still played because tab wasn't useless. But right now in this mod, the fact that you have penalty for using stealth, and yet you don't have stealth anyway is just too much. Current situation is not acceptable. It has to be changed.
You just proposed that Tr should be able to attack people and the attacker should not be allowed to attack back aka defend themselves. Talk about selfish and pathetic. Individuals like you are why finding balance in PvP is so hard.
You just proposed that Tr should be able to attack people and the attacker should not be allowed to attack back aka defend themselves. Talk about selfish and pathetic. Individuals like you are why finding balance in PvP is so hard.
What's the difference between a CW getting the jump on you and a TR getting the jump on you?
That was rhetorical. Answer: 3 seconds. Probably less if they built right.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Kweassa you are getting quite good at bashing others in your never ending quest for defending Tr OP:ness.
Always the others that are wrong, are cluess, lies, lazy, dont understand game mechaics and so on so on.
The problem with argueing against clear evidence is that reality is becomming more and more obvious to all but to poor Kweassa...
.
The only people getting killed from a single rotation from a daze combo is those who are perhaps 3~4k lower GS than the TR. Their deaths come from lack of preparation, simply a result of being outmatched in brute force. In most cases dazes are simply avoided by WALKING AWAY. Get some frickin' Dark enchants and use them in your utility.
Perfectly put (including the rest of this post that for some reason was not included in the "quote")
Moderator Update:
System's Designer, GentleManCrush, has elaborated son on his Twitter Message here. Please keep up to date with the discussions since before replying. We know this is a hot topic for many players of a variety of playstyles. Please remember, to stay on topic and remain respectful and constructive in one's replies. Thanks!
Stealth has only ever been a minor problem how about fix the brokem feats that allow perma stun/slow/one shot higher gs toons and ignores all armour and defence!Attachment not found. this shot was in GG pvp with my 24k GWF with 49k HP ,how is this not op when most pvp matches noone else has that much HP,and it ignores any defence and armour class and tenacity?
I must also not that I have full black ice gear and am at 19k gs CW geared for pvp I get hit with lashing blade for almost 30k and this rogue was only 10k gs! I run cw shield and stacked hp w rank 7/8's a perma daze is ridiculous and im constantly being destroyed by mediocre builds and extreme damage output from 9k to 16k Tricksters and its honestly making me not want to pvp anymore which sucks because that's what I built him for. I also believe first strike is giving a unreasonable amount of additional damage.
You just proposed that Tr should be able to attack people and the attacker should not be allowed to attack back aka defend themselves. Talk about selfish and pathetic. Individuals like you are why finding balance in PvP is so hard.
That person is a known troll and an infamously bad player, just disregard and move on.
Comments
The high duration of dazes comes from weaving Dazing Strike and Smokebomb into the rotation. Which all TRs have access to. In fact I've just been doing some testing on Preview specced as Executioner but using the same encounter loadout as my Scoundrel and in PvE I can still maintain daze for long periods.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
go seek attention somewhere else hypocrite if TRs nailed you hard this isnt the right place to ask someone to inject morphine into you painful behind.
what class is your main toon?
Again miss. My main is a TR. Always was. And will be. Told you that you need to work on the vocabulary.
Yes, this 75% Deflection you're pulling out of your ***. It needs to be nerfed.
Then we give TR only 1 dodge roll.
Then we reduce damage to lower than Mod 4 stats.
Next, we'll replace TR daggers with spoons.
I don't think you'd be pleased if they removed TR entirely. You'd probably run off to the next strong class and want that nerfed into the ground.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
so its still ok for rangers to be able to use PB all the time, when cryptic gives rogues the chance to use it (only in stealth btw) and then they deem it too powerful for rogues to use? totally balanced got it...
He's a HR. Never disclosed who he is in game, though.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I didn't realize our dazes were coming from powers that automatically homes-in with channeling and thus effectively undodgeable/avoidable, hits from 80' range, and has no cooldown.
If you'd agree to temporary cc-immunities on a universal scale so it applies to ALL CCs from ALL sources equally, then yeah, sure, why not. I don't get to chain-daze others so often, but then they don't get to chain CC us as well. Maybe my WK would finally be able to rotate Oghma's Token of Free Movement out of the slot for something that gives me better performance.
If you're asking this to apply to TR dazes only, then that's plain ol' sad double-standard and straight-up bias to the max. Get outta here.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As it is, PB is less of a threat than it was, and Shadowy Opportunity is plain broken. I've already showcased this in my vids, but any 'rapid fire' type of power turns OP with SO, and "but its only from stealth" doesn't matter at all, because with certain builds 'stealth depletion' becomes a non-issue. In the vid I made, I literally restealth at my whim.
So yeah, I think its OK rangers use PB all the time because it's no longer the unbelievable bullshi* "40% of premitigated value" it was. It respects DR by way of the proc-source respecting DR, and offers varying percentages of damage. This may seem like a good thing if you can ALWAYS do mega-damage, but typically 70~80% of HR damage relies on small, repetitive, ranged DoTs, so actual instances of PB doing any real damage is limited. It adds a good hefty damage if you're hit by stuff like Fox's Shift, but that's about it.
SO? No limits. Always constant damage no matter how strong the target's defense is. Fling fling fling fling a supposedly 'weak' at-will like CoS and it still adds 7~8k extra damage in a matter of few seconds.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Do you understand why SO is far more powerful than PB yet?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
im sure pb > so or at least i would gladly take it in its place if you think SO is too overpowered.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I got HR and GWF so?
Why you not mention how well TR on stack recovery stat?
TR got 100% change crit,combat advan why need SO? 25% arpen is equal 2k+ stat
do you know HR offhand artifact only have 503 base damage even at legend And only proc melee skill?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
First thing first, balance the classes. Then accountability for the designer(s) who broke the game by either bonus reduction or some disciplinary action. Do a root cause impact analysis so that this do not resurface again.
Well, if this thread has any meaning then you will change something with it. If not it is obviously thread about nothing since u have 25 pages of feedback and yet you do what you would have done if this thread would not exist.
So since you still don't want to take away stealth depletion on attacks, then you should change this whole stealth reveal on this way:
First solution to problem:
If you hit opponent
You are visible to opponent but just to help him find you. It DOES NOT make you targetable. Enemy would have run to your position and then when he is in proper distance he can aim you. Let's say that if you attack enemy then you are visible but your character is red so enemy will know you are not targetable yet.
Second solution:
If you are dazed/controlled/stunned/proned
You are not visible in any circumstances unless player is close enough
For the moment stealth is useless. I was playing my TR in mod 2 when it was relatively good class. In mod 3 and 4 TR was in very bad position but i still played because tab wasn't useless. But right now in this mod, the fact that you have penalty for using stealth, and yet you don't have stealth anyway is just too much. Current situation is not acceptable. It has to be changed.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Also, CS is a maximum of 50% uptime on crits only. With a typical crit rate of around 35% that's an actual uptime of just 17.5%
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You just proposed that Tr should be able to attack people and the attacker should not be allowed to attack back aka defend themselves. Talk about selfish and pathetic. Individuals like you are why finding balance in PvP is so hard.
What's the difference between a CW getting the jump on you and a TR getting the jump on you?
That was rhetorical. Answer: 3 seconds. Probably less if they built right.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Although, having BOTH at-will stealth depletion AND stealth reveal does make things a lot tougher.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Perfectly put
Stealth has only ever been a minor problem how about fix the brokem feats that allow perma stun/slow/one shot higher gs toons and ignores all armour and defence!Attachment not found. this shot was in GG pvp with my 24k GWF with 49k HP ,how is this not op when most pvp matches noone else has that much HP,and it ignores any defence and armour class and tenacity?
That person is a known troll and an infamously bad player, just disregard and move on.