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[Community Feedback] Trickster Rogue Stealth Changes on the Horizon

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    demonkyuubidemonkyuubi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    tsokushin wrote: »
    It needs to be 2 seconds as already stated previously. If it were 1 second, you could roll right after an attack and the immunity frame from that would only allow .2 secs to counter. That is not enough time.

    You still have Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit at your use.

    And now you ask the point of saboteur? Regenerating stealth to get back the 100% crit advantage in addition to being unseen until you make an attack. That's in addition to Shadowy Opportunity which gives large amounts of piercing damage.



    TR's have deflection % that rivals HR in addition to Impossible to Catch and being able to make the first attack from stealth. In any case, both Executioner and Scoundrel are only reliant on the first attack out of stealth.

    ahahahahah i have 70% deflect on my hr noooo way to reach that amount on my tr.

    considering that i have one of the best possible rolls for a deflect rogue (if not the best roll).....i am pretty sure achieving that is impossible until i am at 30% hp which is 1-shot range anyways.

    56% deflect with 27 dex, 20 cha (2 from belt), and 3,400 deflect. 58% is achievable, but that's pretty much it.
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    tsokushintsokushin Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    ahahahahah i have 70% deflect on my hr noooo way to reach that amount on my tr.
    if specced for deflect and 0 strenght i can see something about 45% but i would be slower than a turtle.
    considering that i have one of the best possible rolls for a deflect rogue (if not the best roll).....i am pretty sure achieving that is impossible until i am at 30% hp which is 1-shot range anyways.

    56% deflect with 27 dex, 20 cha (2 from belt), and 3,400 deflect. 58% is achievable, but that's pretty much it.

    As said, which rarydan ignored, Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit. Also, HR's do not have the capacity for 100% crit.
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    mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    tsokushin wrote: »
    As said, which rarydan ignored, Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit. Also, HR's do not have the capacity for 100% crit.

    ITC is the only relevant skill. VP, as noted by my 10-page multi-quote to kweassa, doesn't compare in utility. When VP gives a few seconds of cc immunity, it'll become relevant again.

    Also, Combat HRs have been a threat to all squishies without that 100% crit.
    I wonder what the difference is...
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    tsokushin wrote: »
    As said, which rarydan ignored, Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit. Also, HR's do not have the capacity for 100% crit.

    they have the change to damage you for 20 seconds applying glyphs and piercing without attacking tho
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    marnivalmarnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    ahahahahah i have 70% deflect on my hr noooo way to reach that amount on my tr.
    Show me a pic of that now after they removed the Trs extra deflect on other classes from dex..

    If you start the fight with taking away 70% of your opponents damage and have dodge dodge with 1 sec immunity +itc + daze and a ton other defence abilitys and are only visible for the ONE YOU ATTACK for 2 sec and you complain like somobody taken away your right leg....
    OT: 2 seconds is nothing considering TR has ITC+4 dodge rolls... Either reduce their rolls back to 2 or increase the visibility to 4 seconds. OR make them extremely squishy (Saboteur and Executionners).

    This won't make a difference at all.

    <^^> This is more near the truth. Did Keawass get acces to your account or what Rayrdan - you starting to spread the same gibberish as he have been doing.

    I will help test this and hopefully there can be a balance that makes Tr both fun and valid in pve as well as pvp without this redicules OP **** they enjoy now...
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    overdriver13overdriver13 Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Given that this is a pvp problem I go to the simple and effective solution: No stealth on nodes. Stealth as normal off node. In a game of domination (node control), stealth is simply OP while on node. Off node it is seek and destroy as usual. No stealth on node also means absolutely no changes to pve TR. It is not a nerf to the class but rather an adjustment of the domination game towards some kind of parity where node control is concerned.

    This also enforces the "fight on node" pvp rule. Many players (newer players) do not know to fight on node. Let them fall prey to invisible assassins if they decide to try and pew pew from a distance without ever helping their party actually win the match.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Given that this is a pvp problem I go to the simple and effective solution: No stealth on nodes. Stealth as normal off node. In a game of domination (node control), stealth is simply OP while on node. Off node it is seek and destroy as usual. No stealth on node also means absolutely no changes to pve TR. It is not a nerf to the class but rather an adjustment of the domination game towards some kind of parity where node control is concerned.

    This also enforces the "fight on node" pvp rule. Many players (newer players) do not know to fight on node. Let them fall prey to invisible assassins if they decide to try and pew pew from a distance without ever helping their party actually win the match.

    so from 2 seconds visibility to total always visibility, that escalated quickly
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    froszztfroszzt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 284 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    70% deflect on HR? That is pure BS!
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    froszzt wrote: »
    70% deflect on HR? That is pure BS!

    full lone wolf + 2600 deflect + pots + offhand + pathfinder it's possible
    in full purified you can go even higher
    i need the last linu favor on that toon, i swear i will post a screenshot
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    froszztfroszzt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 284 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    full lone wolf + 2600 deflect + pots + offhand + pathfinder it's possible
    in full purified you can go even higher
    i need the last linu favor on that toon, i swear i will post a screenshot

    Well with full stacks of lone wolf and PF action then you probably can. You can't rely on both of them being fully stacked though.

    Without stacks and pots I reckon a HR will have to settle with max around 50%.

    Which is also high. But as a combat HR myself I think we don't get enough love. Damage wise, sure, we're fine. But as a combat HR compared to a TR, lol. Just today a TR actually RAN past my rank 3 mount in PvE.. Yep, why use a mount when they are faster?

    Not to mention I always said that I would trade HR's 5 crappy dodges for the 2 dodge rolls of the TR. Well, now TR has 4 of them. LOL

    And TR's talking about being squishy is a big fat joke.

    This right here is one of the reasons I will not ever PvP again. Even if they fix stealth, there is 20 more problems that won't see a fix.

    And that is just for TR!! Don't get me started on intimidation GWF and immortal DC's and infinity block GF's.

    Balance is so far away in this game that you either need to stop PvP or quit the game. They would need to fire all the current devs and hire new ones for even a slight shot at achieving balance.

    No stealth? Np, we'll daze you. We'll 1 shot you. We'll outrun you. We'll............ Balance, lmao
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    suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    froszzt wrote: »
    ...
    Just today a TR actually RAN past my rank 3 mount in PvE.. Yep, why use a mount when they are faster?
    ...

    I would check your rank 3 mount to make sure it is not a rank 1 mount as that is the only one the TR can run past faster. It can get close to a rank 2 mount for the period of time it is in stealth, though, and with some dodges it may get ahead for a brief time.
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    icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Shocking Execution definitely need to be addressed 24.5K GS GWF with 45K HP, I barely have 10~15% HP left after eating a shocking exexction, and no, our class does not have the ability to dodge... and yes, that TR has 6 legendaries..
    icydrake%20avatar2_zpsg7rp0xti.jpg

    Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
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    zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    tarftgm wrote: »
    CALLING OUT ZEBULAR

    Nice spelling mistake in the title change rofl.
    bwahahaha!

    *waves his hand like a psionic master*

    You saw nothing!
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    crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    icyphish wrote: »
    Shocking Execution definitely need to be addressed 24.5K GS GWF with 45K HP, I barely have 10~15% HP left after eating a shocking exexction, and no, our class does not have the ability to dodge... and yes, that TR has 6 legendaries..

    No. It is intimidation one shot AOE that needs to be fixed.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    zebular wrote: »
    I've never liked that one could attack in stealth while remaining stealthed. That just doesn't make sense. IMO, going into stealth should keep you in stealth until you either: Use an ability, item, attack, or manually go out of stealth. Attacking from within stealth, should give a bonus to that first attack however, but it should not allow you to remain stealthed. Leaving stealth should put a 30-60 second cooldown on returning to stealth and be unable to enter stealth if you're in combat/taking damage.

    Sadly, the way stealth is intertwined into being a class feature, this makes making stealth work like it should in any D&D setting, near impossible without completely changing many abilities around. Still, I feel it should be done. The rogues we have now are not D&D rogues at all.
    I’m really with you on this, but I’m adding that receiving an attack coming from stealth should not only reveal the attacker but should also disable his immunity against the player he attacked for a short time if he use Impossible to Catch, so it will mean something.

    And please put a stop to the abuse of Lashing Blade an ENCOUNTER that deals as much as 39K to 41K damage coming from stealth, its critical severity should be cut down to 10% on players (it's an encounter not a SUPER daily).

    All dazing time should be reduced by 40% on players and a player that has been daze should have a daze immunity cooldown, so they won’t add up to a point of being cut down to pieces without a fight.
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    mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jarecsteph wrote: »
    I’m really with you on this, but I’m adding that receiving an attack coming from stealth should not only reveal the attacker but should also disable his immunity against the player he attacked for a short time if he use Impossible to Catch, so it will mean something.

    And please put a stop to the abuse of Lashing Blade an ENCOUNTER that deals as much as 39K to 41K damage coming from stealth, its critical severity should be cut down to 10% on players (it's an encounter not a SUPER daily).

    All dazing time should be reduced by 40% on players and a player that has been daze should have a daze immunity cooldown, so they won’t add up to a point of being cut down to pieces without a fight.

    Can I have a CC immunity cooldown too?
    Oh wait, MI already has that and that's what we're complaining about.
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
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    mirkraagmirkraag Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Originally posted by jarecsteph

    I’m really with you on this, but I’m adding that receiving an attack coming from stealth should not only reveal the attacker but should also disable his immunity against the player he attacked for a short time if he use Impossible to Catch, so it will mean something.

    And please put a stop to the abuse of Lashing Blade an ENCOUNTER that deals as much as 39K to 41K damage coming from stealth, its critical severity should be cut down to 10% on players (it's an encounter not a SUPER daily).

    All dazing time should be reduced by 40% on players and a player that has been daze should have a daze immunity cooldown, so they won’t add up to a point of being cut down to pieces without a fight.

    Oh I got another idea, let's remove the stealth mechanic, the daze cc and oh wait let's remove rogue's armor too. It would be so much fun AND balance to chase them while they are running naked on the map !

    (however I am agree with the lashing blade point ^^ Wayyyy too much damage for an encounter)
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    lashing blade isn't the problem, it's the feats that play together with it.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mjytresz wrote: »
    Can I have a CC immunity cooldown too?
    Oh wait, MI already has that and that's what we're complaining about.

    The only real control spell CW has is Entangling Force that last 1 to 3 seconds on players and freeze that is around 3 seconds and has a cooldown on the player that as been frozen.

    Orb of opposition combine with Glacial Movement feat can add 2 seconds to that, but as a big draw back that is Oppressor why? Because the most interesting feat Oprressor has is Shatter Strike that has a chance to stunned for 5 second but here’s the draw back only 1 second on player.

    So why TR can daze or stunt for 5 second and follow with other dazes or stunt for a total of around 10 second???? Should you be call Controll TR and me Wizard???

    And you don't talk about the rest of my post regarding the abuse of Lashing Blade an ENCOUNTER that can deals as much damage as my Ice Knife Daily.
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mirkraag wrote: »
    Oh I got another idea, let's remove the stealth mechanic, the daze cc and oh wait let's remove rogue's armor too. It would be so much fun AND balance to chase them while they are running naked on the map !

    (however I am agree with the lashing blade point ^^ Wayyyy too much damage for an encounter)

    Same respond as the other before you:

    The only real control spell CW has is Entangling Force that last 1 to 3 seconds on players and freeze that is around 3 seconds and has a cooldown on the player that as been frozen.

    Orb of opposition combine with Glacial Movement feat can add 2 seconds to that, but as a big draw back that is Oppressor why? Because the most interesting feat Oprressor has is Shatter Strike that has a chance to stunned for 5 second but here’s the draw back only 1 second on player.

    So why TR can daze or stunt for 5 second and follow with other dazes or stunt for a total of around 10 second???? Should you be call Controll TR and me Wizard???
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    demonkyuubidemonkyuubi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jarecsteph wrote: »
    The only real control spell CW has is Entangling Force that last 1 to 3 seconds on players and freeze that is around 3 seconds and has a cooldown on the player that as been frozen.

    Orb of opposition combine with Glacial Movement feat can add 2 seconds to that, but as a big draw back that is Oppressor why? Because the most interesting feat Oprressor has is Shatter Strike that has a chance to stunned for 5 second but here’s the draw back only 1 second on player.

    So why TR can daze or stunt for 5 second and follow with other dazes or stunt for a total of around 10 second???? Should you be call Controll TR and me Wizard???

    And you don't talk about the rest of my post regarding the abuse of Lashing Blade an ENCOUNTER that can deals as much damage as my Ice Knife Daily.

    i have perma-controlled scoundrels to death although they normally get me more with stealthed deft strike unless i see them coming. if it's a 1 vs 1, then i have a decent chance of winning the control fight. it's just that i rarely have to deal with just the scoundrel....>.>

    but you do have a point with shatter strike since i don't think i have ever noticed it in pvp. wouldn't mind a buff to chill strike's stun as well. i do like the 250% weapon damage byassing mitigation which is how i help kill some rogues in itc or gwf's in unstoppable (although a spellstorm would do more with stormspell since it bypasses mitigation)

    i think a real issue in how they made the 3 paths is that they didn't think the feats through and gave all 3 paths feats that can overwhelm mostly everyone. i am of the opinion that sab is the only path that should not have a damage buff/proc from feats since it has the greatest survivability from perma-stealth. i wouldn't mind if the 25-50% damage buff from scoundrels were replaced with an equivalent defensive buff (either stamina, deflect, or reflect). as for executioner's, the only thing that would make the gwf's/gf's happy is a replacement for the 25% armor pen feat or 1st strike class feature being replaced.
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    mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jarecsteph wrote: »
    The only real control spell CW has is Entangling Force that last 1 to 3 seconds on players and freeze that is around 3 seconds and has a cooldown on the player that as been frozen.

    Orb of opposition combine with Glacial Movement feat can add 2 seconds to that, but as a big draw back that is Oppressor why? Because the most interesting feat Oprressor has is Shatter Strike that has a chance to stunned for 5 second but here’s the draw back only 1 second on player.

    So why TR can daze or stunt for 5 second and follow with other dazes or stunt for a total of around 10 second???? Should you be call Controll TR and me Wizard???

    And you don't talk about the rest of my post regarding the abuse of Lashing Blade an ENCOUNTER that can deals as much damage as my Ice Knife Daily.

    We'll just pretend that CW doesn't have the most hard-CC in the game.
    We'll also pretend like gaining AP is difficult.
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mjytresz wrote: »
    We'll just pretend that CW doesn't have the most hard-CC in the game.
    We'll also pretend like gaining AP is difficult.

    I'm talking PVP here.

    The only CC spell that is usable in PVP is Oppressive Force a daily.

    Conduit of Ice is not bad. Icy Terrain doesn’t worth losing a single target spell; it’s not that it is not good but with its little radius of effect, the time it takes to tick it’s very easy to get out of it. Compare to the large radius of Smoke Bomb and its immediate effect it doesn’t cut it.

    Steal Time is unusable in PVP its activation time should be cut 50% and make the Slowing Time working on all class without any immunity, so the activation time will slow everyone for around 1.5 sec (not a big deal) and make this spell able to interrupted any immunity and TR Stealth.

    So the only good PVP control spells are Entangling Force with a 2 seconds activation time and Ray of Frost that takes about 4 seconds to freeze but has a cooldown on the player that has been frozen. Not so good after all.

    Daze, stun and slow TR control attacks are immediately applied and last way longer and TR have 5 encounters that can do the job!!!!
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    i have perma-controlled scoundrels to death although they normally get me more with stealthed deft strike unless i see them coming. if it's a 1 vs 1, then i have a decent chance of winning the control fight. it's just that i rarely have to deal with just the scoundrel....>.>

    but you do have a point with shatter strike since i don't think i have ever noticed it in pvp. wouldn't mind a buff to chill strike's stun as well. i do like the 250% weapon damage byassing mitigation which is how i help kill some rogues in itc or gwf's in unstoppable (although a spellstorm would do more with stormspell since it bypasses mitigation)

    i think a real issue in how they made the 3 paths is that they didn't think the feats through and gave all 3 paths feats that can overwhelm mostly everyone. i am of the opinion that sab is the only path that should not have a damage buff/proc from feats since it has the greatest survivability from perma-stealth. i wouldn't mind if the 25-50% damage buff from scoundrels were replaced with an equivalent defensive buff (either stamina, deflect, or reflect). as for executioner's, the only thing that would make the gwf's/gf's happy is a replacement for the 25% armor pen feat or 1st strike class feature being replaced.

    You surely don't play PVP much, a good 20K plus GS PVP TR can destroy you in 3 to 4 second max. And you won't control a thing.
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    demonkyuubidemonkyuubi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jarecsteph wrote: »
    You surely don't play PVP much, a good 20K plus GS PVP TR can destroy you in 3 to 4 second max. And you won't control a thing.

    depends. if you are aware of it, then you can dodge the attack from stealth and then follow up with a control power. scoundrels relying on a stealthed deft strike lose both concussive for 5 seconds and skullcapper while executioner's lose their 1-shot from a stealthed lashing or shocking execution.

    i dodge most lashing blades but i still need more practice dodging deft strike from stealth

    but yeah, i would probably lose to a 20k rogue since my wizard is 11k and still gearing up through pvp.
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    mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jarecsteph wrote: »
    I'm talking PVP here.

    The only CC spell that is usable in PVP is Oppressive Force a daily.

    Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mjytresz wrote: »
    Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?

    CC = Crowd Control and Oppressive Force a daily is the only spell worthy of being used for a crowd in PVP all the other spell are not usable as they are at the moment or not effective enough
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    jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    depends. if you are aware of it, then you can dodge the attack from stealth and then follow up with a control power. scoundrels relying on a stealthed deft strike lose both concussive for 5 seconds and skullcapper while executioner's lose their 1-shot from a stealthed lashing or shocking execution.

    i dodge most lashing blades but i still need more practice dodging deft strike from stealth

    but yeah, i would probably lose to a 20k rogue since my wizard is 11k and still gearing up through pvp.

    Yes you can dodge lashig blade in certain situation when the TR is a bad PVP player or is to confident or made a little timing mistake otherwise your done.

    But one of the major problem is daze effects, it’s way too long and even longer when chain with other daze attack. It should be nerf and also have a cooldown on the player that has been daze. I’m 23K gear score with 42k health point PVP CW and I’ve just been kill 3 times on cap by two 11K gear score TR chaining daze together, I was daze during all fights while being cut down to peace’s without having the opportunity to fight, and that’s common stuff .
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    demonkyuubidemonkyuubi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    jarecsteph wrote: »
    Yes you can dodge lashig blade in certain situation when the TR is a bad PVP player or is to confident or made a little timing mistake otherwise your done.

    But one of the major problem is daze effects, it’s way too long and even longer when chain with other daze attack. It should be nerf and also have a cooldown on the player that has been daze. I’m 23K gear score with 42k health point PVP CW and I’ve just been kill 3 times on cap by two 11K gear score TR chaining daze together, I was daze during all fights while being cut down to peace’s without having the opportunity to fight, and that’s common stuff .

    it's not that they missed their timing. their timing was good, but i literally dodged right when i would have been hit. it's also how u can get concussive strikes (2.5 sec daze) to go onto cooldown without being dazed.

    and i don't think a wizard should ever be able to survive being focus fired regardless of class combination. wizards are meant to be the easiest kill.

    and a daze cooldown is in no way fair since 2 encounters and 2 feats all share daze. a cooldown would kill the entire point behind having more than 1. an oppressor with a freeze cooldown can still control through 3-4 different encounters so it's not that big of a deal.
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    beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    3 encounters: Smoke Bomb, Dazing Strike, Shadow Strike
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
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