Um, no it doesn't.
VP's viability in PvP was thrown out the window a long time ago. Right now, to take effect of VP's CC Break mechanic, you have to be CC'd first. That means something's a few seconds away from killing you anyway. DS doesn't make up for ITC. ITC negates the effectiveness of CC before it strikes. Not to mention the other obvious advantages of ITC.
First off, with the proposed changes, the CW in question wouldn't see you until your stealth has fully depleted. You'd only be visible to your target after you hit them.
Second, you were the person to bring up Whisperknives as a comment about ITC not being upon that paragon path. Yes, ITC is very strong, but for TR's that do not use Master Infiltrator, they gain several class features (such as Advantageous position) and access to a ranged DoT that crits all the time from stealth. Those are considerably powerful.
That's 2 seconds of mashing Dodge, praying that CW doesn't have the common sense to Icy Rays or time their CC. This is a pretty direct nerf to Whisperknife. Odd, considering MI Exec is the hot topic right now, not WK Sab.
I can understand attacks draining stealth. I can't understand being automatically visible while... being invisible. The fact that the devs can't see the obvious power creep or even balance TR without making it capable of wiping a whole team is testament enough to how bad this is going to end.
Once again, Whisperknife has access to a ranged DoT. In any case, most other classes do have to use tactics and dodges when fighting a CW because they don't have the full 100% safety of doing full combos without being seen. Use tactics. Also, badtalking the devs isn't going to help here because they're actually addressing serious balance issues without waiting a full module now. This is a step in the right direction towards finetuning things for pvp.
At this point, I'll take my Mod 4 TR back. So far, we've bad:
1) Fresh Mod5 TR - Broken
2) Post SoD "Fix" - Broken
3) Proposed stealth "fix" that negates the point of stealth
Stop acting like that. TR's got a very big buff. And now you're complaining that they're modifying things to the point where TR's can be countered in PvP. TR's do very good damage in PvE and have multiple uses.
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
2 seconds might be a bit too much. However, this change doesn't fix the issue of TRs just running around in stealth and oneshotting everyone with dailies.
2 seconds should be fine as long as some tactics are involved.
At least, under default settings and conditions your field of view is usually limited to the frontal 150 degrees or so. Hence, tactically speaking it would be wise to try and set yourself at the rear angles of your target when attempting an attack from stealth. Attack, reposition, attack, reposition, etc..
Of course, for those with the warped camera angles/field of view it might be different.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
2 seconds might be a bit too much. However, this change doesn't fix the issue of TRs just running around in stealth and oneshotting everyone with dailies.
As I've said previously, with the immunity times on rolls, 2 seconds is perfect. If it were 1 second, there would only be a .2 sec window for a counter, none if the rogue rolled twice. As it is with this proposed change, a rogue can still roll 2-3 times and time out the stealth visibility, which is balanced.
In any case, yes, they can address the 1 shotting problem.
2 seconds might be a bit too much. However, this change doesn't fix the issue of TRs just running around in stealth and oneshotting everyone with dailies.
Easymode dailies is a product of the broken OP Sigil of the Devoted. Under current circumstances, a TR can rarely afford enough attacks to fill up AP quickly since the stealth depletion mechanic came into place. In prior mods, without stealth depletion a fast-AP gain build with appropriate feats, coupled with numerous repeated attacks from stealth would gather up AP quite quickly. After mod5, the generally lower AP gain rate is a balancing factor by itself to the powerful dailies.
Unfortunately, as we all know, this change has been made moot simply through the use of the DC artifact -- fire it up in the beginning of the game, and for MIs there's a nice, easy 2-consecutive Shoxecutions guaranteed every 2 minutes (so long as you kill something with the first one). Same with Bloodbath or any other stuff for that matter. With the AP gain cloaks now being slowly proliferated to the players, this will only get worse.
It's about time people start dropping the double standards IMO. If the TR is broken and needs balance, so does the Sigil of the Devoted and ALL classes/players who would make use of easy access to full AP within the first 15s of the match. IMO it's either nerf the artifact and limit the use of TR dailies ALONG with the same limitations to all other classes and their dailies as well, or leave it alone and also face the consequences of the TR making use of its features. You can't just nerf down TR dailies, and then leave others to quick and easy access to full AP every 135 seconds.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
VP is totally viable in PvP but it has to be part of a specific load out package . It's a higher risk, high reward build especially useful in 1 vs 1 situations.
To clarify on what morenthar says above, as a long-time WK player with special interest to the WK's Paragon encounter of VP, currently VP is finally buffed up enough to be more or less comparable to ITC in general terms. Of course, nothing short of Unstoppable quite matches the supreme utility of ITC as a surviving tool, but VP makes up what it lacks as an anti-CC tool with its general utility.
For one thing, the buffs it has received with mod5 are quite delightful in many ways. The activation speed of the teleport is now finally fast enough to make use as a CC breaker, and general increase in damage makes it a useful moderate~heavy damage attack. It has always been a nifty tool for tracking stealth as well, so VP actually becomes the most important "ace in the hole" for WK TRs in facing MI TRs. If your stealth-tracking tactics work, you defeat the MI. If not, you lose.
Of course, in terms of CC-protection, there is the need to "plant" VP beforehand, but it can be managed easily in most cases, and with either the new Sab or Scoundrel features synergizes well enough to provide significant survivability against CCs. I've actually become proficient enough to fight against a MI Scoundrel, which in normal circumstances has a very clear advantage against WKs, by making good use of Oghma's and VP.
VP is viable in every manner -- just so long as the WK Scoundrel remains on its turf, which is 1vs1 situations. Ofcourse in many vs one scenarios, the MI is clearly superior. Just no contest against ITC.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Not sure why you tr are complaining about 2sec of exposure that only the one you attack can see you. Is daze/smokebomb not working, or ITC not working? Or dodge not working? Some tr even have emblem for immune damage.
High deflect give high chance to kill off cc too. More ever those who pvp are mostly halfing.
If the change expose you to all players, it will be different. range will target you on 1st sight, then 2 sec might be too long
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
I thankfully about this feedback respon and no need to wait until next mod
i am not gonna give assumption about this change yet, need to test it
For TR don't just crying because of this change and make comment before it's tested
I thankfully about this feedback respon and no need to wait until next mod
i am not gonna give assumption about this change yet, need to test it
For TR don't just crying because of this change and make comment before it's tested
No amount of changes ever satisfies whiners, because there is no such thing as "balance" unless they start winning. The unfortunate matter is that most whiners lack what it takes to win, as the usual reason behind their misery is either; (a) lack of skill, (b) lack of gear/spec, or most commonly (c) lack of BOTH.
Hence even after changes which many PvP experts might comment as "adequate", they would still be left whining, since they will still lose. So what is going to happen is most TR players will actually welcome these changes instead of "cry" about it. Instead, AFTER the changes people like you would be the ones "crying" that "ooohh oooh ohhh still not enough... TRs still kill me easily... they need more nerf..".
That's what is going to happen.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
VP is totally viable in PvP but it has to be part of a specific load out package . It's a higher risk, high reward build especially useful in 1 vs 1 situations.
You'd need someone really stupid to take full advantage of VP.
Knocked down by HR/GWF/GF/SW? VP isn't going to save you.
Icy Ray'd by a CW? 2 more CCs just waiting for you.
Like I said, VP was the **** back in the day when it did nearly 0 damage and was purely utility. Now that it has a high CD and barely decent damage, not so much.
First off, with the proposed changes, the CW in question wouldn't see you until your stealth has fully depleted. You'd only be visible to your target after you hit them.
That's 2 seconds of nonstop dodge spamming.
That's 2 seconds of giving your position and destination away.
Like I said, this wasn't a problem in Mod 4. Mainly because no one had the balls to play TR and even fewer were even decent at it. Now that it takes less brain cells than your shoe size to maintain permastealth with 0 stats invested and 0 skill with the class, it's apparently a huge problem.
I wonder what changed...
Second, you were the person to bring up Whisperknives as a comment about ITC not being upon that paragon path. Yes, ITC is very strong, but for TR's that do not use Master Infiltrator, they gain several class features (such as Advantageous position) and access to a ranged DoT that crits all the time from stealth. Those are considerably powerful.
Advantageous Position isn't that great. Take it from the guy in the conversation who played WK since it was released. (Protip: It's not you).
DS only got really good after Mod 5. Even so, it's not even as powerful as you think it is. Sure, you're the idiot CW with 25k HP not using any defensive enchants or boons. Any MI Exec is going to roll up, Lashing Blade, and 1-shot you. At 4k DS ticks, that's at least 6-7 seconds of watching you flail around wondering why you're dying so fast.
I've been matched with CWs who can regen/lifesteal off the damage pretty easily. Considering how long it takes to kill a GF/GWF with DS alone, it's not as powerful as you may think.
If I didn't love WK as much as I do, I'd pick the obviously better option and respec to MI.
Once again, Whisperknife has access to a ranged DoT. In any case, most other classes do have to use tactics and dodges when fighting a CW because they don't have the full 100% safety of doing full combos without being seen.
No, they just have the 100% safety of CCing you until you die.
Unless you're a GF/GWF/HR, in which case you're in the same position as a WK except without stealth and a ton more CC.
Use tactics. Also, badtalking the devs isn't going to help here because they're actually addressing serious balance issues without waiting a full module now. This is a step in the right direction towards finetuning things for pvp.
These "serious balance issues" were blatantly obvious on the test server.
If they're waiting weeks after the launch and over a month after previewing on the test server, I wonder what kind of attention span or qualifications they have to begin with. SoD was broken on test server. DS had high damage on test server. Why did it take several weeks of abuse on live servers for them to "address" something they already knew?
Use your head.
Stop acting like that. TR's got a very big buff. And now you're complaining that they're modifying things to the point where TR's can be countered in PvP. TR's do very good damage in PvE and have multiple uses.
TRs always did good damage in PvE.
It's just with instances like CN that have 700 trash mobs and 3 bosses, clearing trash becomes a lot more prevalent than saving 30 seconds on the boss.
You're right, they did get a big boost. However, this isn't the boost TR needed. All TR needed was a few feat reworks, some QoL fixes (Like DF), and a slight damage boost to make them viable in PvP. Permastealth wasn't hard to pull off in Mod 4 with the old feats and timing dodges. It was the damage potential and the ridiculous risk vs the ridiculously lower reward.
To clarify on what morenthar says above, as a long-time WK player with special interest to the WK's Paragon encounter of VP, currently VP is finally buffed up enough to be more or less comparable to ITC in general terms. Of course, nothing short of Unstoppable quite matches the supreme utility of ITC as a surviving tool, but VP makes up what it lacks as an anti-CC tool with its general utility.
Know what else helped before?
Not getting caught.
CWs weren't known to use Ice Terrain or Steal Time in Mod 4. Much less so as a 30 second advantage against a TR. It wasn't until the recent buffs to those skills that they became more widely seen in PvP. With that said, VP isn't going to save you. In the unlikely event that you totally screwed up your cut and paste Mod 5 permastealth rotation and got caught by a CW, which is 90% of the times your own fault, not only is VP
1) A waste of an Encounter slot
2) Saving you from 1/3 CC skills in a 1v1 scenario
3) Not saving you from a team scenario since the second activation doesn't proc One with the Shadows
4) Doing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-poor damage and putting you at risk for securing a kill.
VP saves you from a single CC in the event that you screw yourself over.
ITC is several seconds of straight-up not giving a hell because lolimmune.
For one thing, the buffs it has received with mod5 are quite delightful in many ways. The activation speed of the teleport is now finally fast enough to make use as a CC breaker, and general increase in damage makes it a useful moderate~heavy damage attack. It has always been a nifty tool for tracking stealth as well, so VP actually becomes the most important "ace in the hole" for WK TRs in facing MI TRs. If your stealth-tracking tactics work, you defeat the MI. If not, you lose.
Considering I've seen less than a handful of Sab MIs since Mod 5 launch, the vast majority are either Sco or Exec, in which case a Sab TR still holds the advantage. In a Domination scenario, it's not hard to track down another TR and secure a LB/Daze to refill stealth, especially if you get the early DS on them which secures your damage potential over them. Even if both of you are using the same Heroic feats and Profound set, the Sab stays stealthed longer and pulls out the SS to refill stealth and maintain the advantage. IWD and GG are obviously different and a lot of different variables factor into this.
Of course, in terms of CC-protection, there is the need to "plant" VP beforehand, but it can be managed easily in most cases, and with either the new Sab or Scoundrel features synergizes well enough to provide significant survivability against CCs. I've actually become proficient enough to fight against a MI Scoundrel, which in normal circumstances has a very clear advantage against WKs, by making good use of Oghma's and VP.
VP is viable in every manner -- just so long as the WK Scoundrel remains on its turf, which is 1vs1 situations. Ofcourse in many vs one scenarios, the MI is clearly superior. Just no contest against ITC.
Great job, you VP'd the MI.
Now you activate it again and eat a Daze to the face.
Followed by a Smoke Bomb.
Then another Daze proc.
Hot **** I can see why face-tanking your enemy as a TR died out over 3 mods ago.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
You'd need someone really stupid to take full advantage of VP.
Knocked down by HR/GWF/GF/SW? VP isn't going to save you.
Icy Ray'd by a CW? 2 more CCs just waiting for you.
You're speaking as if MIs never get proned. Sure, they'd never get proned if they prepare and control their situation well enough to be able to go into ITC when stealth expires. That is true. But then is there some reason you're assuming a WK would not be able to manage its situation to its own advantage just the same?
Like I said, VP was the **** back in the day when it did nearly 0 damage and was purely utility. Now that it has a high CD and barely decent damage, not so much.
High CD doesn't matter when you have either a Sab or a Scoundrel build. It's simply managed by clever rotations. It used to matter when the TR had NOTHING to use, so using VP would always land you in a place where you would be vulnerable, and had no way of escaping, but mod5 changed everything. They've also reduced the base CD by 2secs IIRC, from default 16s to 14s. With high enough recharge, that comes down to around 12s. Much better than before.
With that said, VP isn't going to save you. In the unlikely event that you totally screwed up your cut and paste Mod 5 permastealth rotation and got caught by a CW, which is 90% of the times your own fault, not only is VP
1) A waste of an Encounter slot
2) Saving you from 1/3 CC skills in a 1v1 scenario
3) Not saving you from a team scenario since the second activation doesn't proc One with the Shadows
4) Doing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-poor damage and putting you at risk for securing a kill.
I'm quite sorry to say, judging by what you've wrote above you're managing the WK/Sab wrong. No, really.
VP saves you from a single CC in the event that you screw yourself over.
ITC is several seconds of straight-up not giving a hell because lolimmune.
MIs and WKs have different combat ranges. In most situations where the MI would require the ITC, a WK handles it well enough with a VP now. Not knowing this fact sort of makes me wonder if you've really been using Wk for that long a time as you claim.
Great job, you VP'd the MI.
Now you activate it again and eat a Daze to the face.
Followed by a Smoke Bomb.
Then another Daze proc.
Hot **** I can see why face-tanking your enemy as a TR died out over 3 mods ago.
Yep. The above confirms that regardless of how long you may have used a WK, you have no idea of how to fight with it, much less use VP correctly ROFL.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well... this power is back to its old devastation but worse. It's as broken as ever.
1-Shotted from Full Health(48K HP) through Empowered Astral Shield + P.Barkshield + Hallowed Ground. Really now?
It ignores DR, Tenacity, and everything.
This is a never-ending cycle.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited December 2014
Moderator Update: I changed the title of this thread to be more visible in searches. I think we'll sticky this for now until it things go in testing on preview. We'll then leave a redirect here to an official feedback thread in the Feedback forums when that time comes.
We know this is a hot topic for many players of a variety of playstyles. Please remember, to stay on topic and remain respectful and constructive in one's replies. Thanks!
Please don't reply to this moderator notice. Instead, contact us via Private Message to discuss forum moderation.
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Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
You're speaking as if MIs never get proned. Sure, they'd never get proned if they prepare and control their situation well enough to be able to go into ITC when stealth expires. That is true. But then is there some reason you're assuming a WK would not be able to manage its situation to its own advantage just the same?
That's the point.
VP is useful when you screw up your rotation and/or get caught. SS has an animation long enough that any other class with CC already landed it by the time SS refills your stealth. ITC is a wild card because you can just pop it and stop caring about CC or see the situation coming, press a single button, and you're good to go. You can stealth refill during ITC. Not so easy with VP since the second activation doesn't proc One with the Shadows. Assuming you popped it from stealth, you get a cute stun and barely enough time, if at all, to blow SS to refill stealth and dodge away.
If you didn't use it in stealth, you're face-first into a world of CC.
It doesn't really compare.
Especially when, in Mod 5, you can maintain stealth with less than 2k Recov and 0 points in Int.
High CD doesn't matter when you have either a Sab or a Scoundrel build. It's simply managed by clever rotations. It used to matter when the TR had NOTHING to use, so using VP would always land you in a place where you would be vulnerable, and had no way of escaping, but mod5 changed everything. They've also reduced the base CD by 2secs IIRC, from default 16s to 14s. With high enough recharge, that comes down to around 12s. Much better than before.
ITC's cooldown is lower than that. Not only that, it's infinitely better.
TR had a lot to use in Mod 4 if you knew what the hell you were doing. Smoke Bomb is a pretty good staple when you're not always guaranteed to maintain permastealth in Domination. Drop it in a choke point and run the other way. CW Dodge barely covers that distance.
Like I said, if it's a 1v1 situation, you have so many better tools that offer more damage and equal range.
I'm quite sorry to say, judging by what you've wrote above you're managing the WK/Sab wrong. No, really.
Probably.
I've grown attached to the ranged role we maintained since...WK came out.
The lack of ITC always meant we weren't meant for close-range combat.
Unless you're kweassa, in which case you VP up to a CW's face and eat 3 CCs into your spawn point.
Or, y'know, Daze them with the new ridiculous animation. LB them like we've always done. IS them from range with a nifty stun that... doesn't put you right at their nose, vulnerable, visible, and ready to eat half a dozen CC's.
This is all purely assuming you actually use the second activation of VP. Which is not only less damage than Daze, LB, or IS, but also puts you in an uncomfortable position. You can hop into sight range, LB, and dodge out before most CWs can even react to it.
MIs and WKs have different combat ranges. In most situations where the MI would require the ITC, a WK handles it well enough with a VP now. Not knowing this fact sort of makes me wonder if you've really been using Wk for that long a time as you claim.
I was. I used VP religiously until they added pitiful damage and a high CD to it.
Now that Mod 5 is released and:
1) Daze is a lot faster with higher damage and safer utility
2) LB's activation is faster and offers the ability to dodge out of sight range
3) Impact Shot on a Sab refills stealth from beautiful range with utility stun
I see no reason to waste my OwtS on a pitiful damage range skill with a dangerous secondary activation that doesn't proc OwtS.
Then again, I know better than to stand still in Steal Time, face tank SotEA, or run right into range of someone with a CC waiting for me. ITC is a luxury we don't have. Let's focus on skills with better utility and damage than VP. It's time was done over a mod ago.
Yep. The above confirms that regardless of how long you may have used a WK, you have no idea of how to fight with it, much less use VP correctly ROFL.
The difference is, I don't need to rely on VP.
That's what's really setting us apart here. With all of the babygen Mod 5 Exec MIs roaming about, Sab WK is still pretty rare to see in Domi, GG, or IWD PvP.
Not only does Dazing Strike offer better utility and higher damage...
Not only does Lashing Blade offer higher damage and the ability to easily dodge out of sight...
Not only does Impact Shot offer better damage from better range...
Hell, even Blitz offers more safety with better range, mainly because you're not teleporting right into someone's face.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
i may be ok but:
1) visible time have to be lowered to 1 sec and no more
2) stealth depletion on at will needs to go, i m visible right??? So what's the point right now??
at least one can time its duelist flurry avoiding to be controlled to death everytime it strikes.
or we can just stack 11k power no tenacity and play in one shot or being shotted mode.....
2 seconds is like 33% of stealth meter + depletion.. basically i throw one cloud of steel and i lost 50% stealth potential.. TOO MUCH.
Really i would rather have my mod 4 tr back.
what 's the point in saboteur then?
just deleted it i m serious. Every class has a self healing path right? give one to tr too in the place of saboteur
Kweassa you are getting quite good at bashing others in your never ending quest for defending Tr OP:ness.
Always the others that are wrong, are cluess, lies, lazy, dont understand game mechaics and so on so on.
The problem with argueing against clear evidence is that reality is becomming more and more obvious to all but to poor Kweassa...
The "Reign of the Rogue" has been going on since mod1 in the minds of the deluded and frail. You may as well call it the "Illuminati Conspiracy", since non-existant scapegoats are always the perfect subject to throw the blame on as to why people suck so much.
No, sir, it is impossible that they aren't geared well enough, or prepared, or expereinced, or tactful enough. The whiners are perfect in every way. That's why when they lose, it is never their fault. It is always the system, or some OP class, or some other factor that 'MAKES' them lose.
The dumb people keep sending in totally unfit, scrawny toothpicks to stand before me. The smarter ones send in the exact combinations that just neuters my presence on the node and forces me away.
So when these kind of things happen, I wonder if it is really "The Reign of the Rogue" that is going on. Because in reality, my opinion is its usually the "Reign of Stupidity" that's been going on.
The thing is, you know those people who get really, really hurt by a daze-combo from a TR? They usually react like blindfolded chickens. They just stand there, when they need to squirm and try to get as much distance as possible the moment a daze is induced. They stand in one place, and then get their head chopped off like the chicken they are
.
You guys don't really study, or practice, or try come up with new tactics to counter anything. You guys use same set-ups, specs, stats, powerchoices, and general tactics you used before mod5, and before that, and before that. Your types use same tactics against every class, press powers and skills out of habit, instead of calculated timing and need.
You guys don't learn. That's why you guys feel like when the TR dazes you, it feels like permanent. You don't really know how the daze mechanics work, do you?
The only people getting killed from a single rotation from a daze combo is those who are perhaps 3~4k lower GS than the TR. Their deaths come from lack of preparation, simply a result of being outmatched in brute force. In most cases dazes are simply avoided by WALKING AWAY. Get some frickin' Dark enchants and use them in your utility.
Then quit fekking stalling with this useless discussion, and go into the ghame with any CW or SW or GWF you know and see how much damage THEY FEKKING CAN DO AS UNMITIGATED, you moron. See for yourself just how "meaningful" talking about unmitigated damage is. You wanna know how much Anvil of Doom crits in its unmitigated listed number with a well-built GF that lands it to maximum effect?
With this alone you've adequately shown to the community you have ZERO-**** level of knowledge concerning how mitigations work. If you don't know anything about it, why don't you STFU?
Or, maybe you can ask nicely and I'll actually educate your empty brain of the fact. Deal?
Except there is no "fact" that TRs are broken. These anti-TR sentiments are simply a bunch of jumbled up non-sense which even contradict each other, that ranges between people who;
What, you don't want to spend AD or time and effort getting an equipment/setting just for countering one TR? Ever stop and think carefully its that kind of lousy, sloppy, and lazy attitude which makes you lose everytime
What people should do, is do what they can to better their odds first, and THEN come frickin' complain when it still doesn't work. But of course, people don't really do that, do they. They don't theorycraft. They don't respec. They don't get better gear, and they don't even get much practice with guildies. But one thing they do, despite of all that, is complain.
I would totally support this and test it as it goes live on preview! no gc/dhs/cos spamming this would bring some skill back to the pvp trs! it would end the PuG slaying fest of wk/sab and add some skill to mi/sab!
Black Turtle TryhartzIV
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
I don't pvp since mod 4 so this doesn't really affect me, let's hope it'll end the neverending whining about permas and "semipermas" (wtf is a semi perma, you're either a perma or you use stealth occasionally) in pvp.
I'm curious about the ninja nerf to >Disheartening strike though, what was the change done to it? does it affect PVE?
At this point I'm considering coming back to MI, up to mod 4 I used mostly ranged skills so WK was my thing, but now I'm using Blitz, Dazing strike and Smokebomb. and I fight most of the time in melee range.
Permastealth needs to go...seriously!!!
I left this game for 3 or 4 months. Came back hoping to see that they finally fixed the ridiculous permastealth TR's. Only to find that they nerfed the heck out of my GWF AND my HR but yet the permastealths are still running around dropping 15-20k hits left, right and center.
Yep that's what happened. But you don't know all about mod5 TR, it's not only the permastealth, there are many other buffs that you will soon discover.
To provide a little more context, we are generally happy with where rogues are currently falling in most cases, but we didn't see the increase in counterplay that we initially wanted from the changes to stealth and at wills in Module 5, partially because we decided we also wanted mid range rogues to be a much more viable build. Given the way players can currently interact with stealth (with enemies in melee range being revealed), this meant that making ranged rogues more viable had a negative impact on how players could interact with permastealth. However, our goal was not to eliminate stealth as an option that could be maintained, but make it more difficult to oppress an enemy without them fighting back. Given that we are investigating a couple options, but the one that I hope will be out and ready for testing sometime this week is as follows.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
Being dazed (by a stealthed opponent) and then killed by the dazing character in the duration of the daze its self (1 rotation) effectively destroys any possible counter-play. This regardless of a visibility window after striking/dazing. If counter-play is what is sought, the daze from stealth has to go.
current TR can go stealth, attack, go back to stealth right away (META build)
GWF: takes 30% (roughly) of total HP as damage, enters unstoppable. After 8 seconds, back to normal
To compare you should be able to go stealth 8 seconds, then back to visible, take damage, then 8 more seconds of stealth.
TR right now has beast damage. I am 100% for increasing your tankiness even to Destroyer GWF levels, and change stealth to a 8 seconds shot every 30% of damage taken. Let's see how good you are when you actually have to dodge to survive.
Or increasing your tankiness to destroyer GWF levels or HR levels, but when you take damage you can't enter stealth again for 8 seconds.
TRs always complained about being squishy. Now, you have no rights to complain about DPS anymore in PvP, you've plenty enough and then some. If you want, you can have base GWF tankiness but fight out of stealth most of the time and have only 8 seconds stealth shots, linked to damage taken like unstoppable.
Let's see how you perform.
I find it funny how it is "i must be in stealth 99% of the time or i can't fight". Are you serious?
Actually start to fight like any other class do, attacking and THEN being vulnerable and dodging.
You want GWF tankiness? Get it. It's 100x times worse than perma or semi-perma stealth which allows you to not just mitigate damage but avoid it 100% all the time. I wanna see TRs actually fighting and not nuking people from safety of stealth.
Also: HR stealth is short and is a daily. It's not even close to perma or semi-perma stealth.
I say increase TR base tankiness, make them fight with short stealth bursts followed by periods of visibility.
Or limit stealth he same way Unstoppable is limited for GWFs. You can't stay Unstoppable always: it has a COST. Like stealth bar being depleted by damage DEALT, proportionally to how much damage you deal. SO big nukes/ damage= less stealth.
Mate as a me being a TR, I fully agree to your comments as yes it does seem some TR's are nothing without stealth, personally I have never been a fan of always being in stealth. I prefer to combat all the way and if I get caught well then I am dead. Again +1 to your comments!
Leaving stealth should put a 30-60 second cooldown on returning to stealth and be unable to enter stealth if you're in combat/taking damage...
Stealth is the only way to stay alive in some cases, as our survivability is still low. I mainly use stealth to boost my damage, but it really comes in handy to be able to go back to stealth in the middle of a fight if things are going down hill. As things are now I can finally feel that the time, AD and money I spent on my TR were worth it.
Yes, the rogues are not D&D rogues, but neither is the game a D&D game. I would love, however, to play a D&D rogue in a real D&D game.
I'm happy to see the perma stealth going away finally.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
30 to 60 seconds before you can restealth? that's crazy? No TR can stay alive outside of stealth that long.
The problem with 2 seconds visibility when attacking someone is that it doesn't just counter perma stealth (which is the primary intention) but it effectively counters stealth altogether. I don't perma at all., I just use stealth as a boost to some strong attacks once in a while, but still it's completely useless on 1vs1 if any attack reveals me to the other person for 2 whole seconds.
Again, as for now this is only pvp I could care less, but I feel for some pvp rogues already.
Dear gentleman, i doN,t think 2 second of appearence will not make much difference as today, i mean even with reflex, once rogue appear you need to target then launch, many power need 1 second to be launch so with the dodge it will practicaly come to nothing to fight against.
Honestly probably at least for pvp part is to be more near from DD text book to be more equilibrate, the permasthealth way could be consider as the master of shadow feat that is the only way normaly for rogue to be able to return in stealth in front of someone.
Perma scoundrel and one shot executioner won't be really affected since it mainly the first strike that decide everything from those two.
With actual damage getting the first strike is actually a big avantage for class that can do it. So personnaly only the stealth way should be able to get back to stealth in the middle of a fight. stealth bar should drop lower but once fight stealth bar should not recharge exept with special power (on opposite while off fight stealth bar should goes directly to max lvl) . So while in pvp,1 striking make you appear, 2 no stealth recharge during fight (except for the stealth path which should be on opposite with low damage)
OT: 2 seconds is nothing considering TR has ITC+4 dodge rolls... Either reduce their rolls back to 2 or increase the visibility to 4 seconds. OR make them extremely squishy (Saboteur and Executionners).
i may be ok but:
1) visible time have to be lowered to 1 sec and no more
2) stealth depletion on at will needs to go, i m visible right??? So what's the point right now??
at least one can time its duelist flurry avoiding to be controlled to death everytime it strikes.
or we can just stack 11k power no tenacity and play in one shot or being shotted mode.....
2 seconds is like 33% of stealth meter + depletion.. basically i throw one cloud of steel and i lost 50% stealth potential.. TOO MUCH.
Really i would rather have my mod 4 tr back.
what 's the point in saboteur then?
just deleted it i m serious. Every class has a self healing path right? give one to tr too in the place of saboteur
It needs to be 2 seconds as already stated previously. If it were 1 second, you could roll right after an attack and the immunity frame from that would only allow .2 secs to counter. That is not enough time.
You still have Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit at your use.
And now you ask the point of saboteur? Regenerating stealth to get back the 100% crit advantage in addition to being unseen until you make an attack. That's in addition to Shadowy Opportunity which gives large amounts of piercing damage.
30 to 60 seconds before you can restealth? that's crazy? No TR can stay alive outside of stealth that long.
The problem with 2 seconds visibility when attacking someone is that it doesn't just counter perma stealth (which is the primary intention) but it effectively counters stealth altogether. I don't perma at all., I just use stealth as a boost to some strong attacks once in a while, but still it's completely useless on 1vs1 if any attack reveals me to the other person for 2 whole seconds.
Again, as for now this is only pvp I could care less, but I feel for some pvp rogues already.
TR's have deflection % that rivals HR in addition to Impossible to Catch and being able to make the first attack from stealth. In any case, both Executioner and Scoundrel are only reliant on the first attack out of stealth.
It needs to be 2 seconds as already stated previously. If it were 1 second, you could roll right after an attack and the immunity frame from that would only allow .2 secs to counter. That is not enough time.
You still have Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit at your use.
And now you ask the point of saboteur? Regenerating stealth to get back the 100% crit advantage in addition to being unseen until you make an attack. That's in addition to Shadowy Opportunity which gives large amounts of piercing damage.
TR's have deflection % that rivals HR in addition to Impossible to Catch and being able to make the first attack from stealth. In any case, both Executioner and Scoundrel are only reliant on the first attack out of stealth.[/QUOTE]
ahahahahah i have 70% deflect on my hr noooo way to reach that amount on my tr.
if specced for deflect and 0 strenght i can see something about 45% but i would be slower than a turtle.
Comments
First off, with the proposed changes, the CW in question wouldn't see you until your stealth has fully depleted. You'd only be visible to your target after you hit them.
Second, you were the person to bring up Whisperknives as a comment about ITC not being upon that paragon path. Yes, ITC is very strong, but for TR's that do not use Master Infiltrator, they gain several class features (such as Advantageous position) and access to a ranged DoT that crits all the time from stealth. Those are considerably powerful.
Once again, Whisperknife has access to a ranged DoT. In any case, most other classes do have to use tactics and dodges when fighting a CW because they don't have the full 100% safety of doing full combos without being seen. Use tactics. Also, badtalking the devs isn't going to help here because they're actually addressing serious balance issues without waiting a full module now. This is a step in the right direction towards finetuning things for pvp.
Stop acting like that. TR's got a very big buff. And now you're complaining that they're modifying things to the point where TR's can be countered in PvP. TR's do very good damage in PvE and have multiple uses.
2 seconds might be a bit too much. However, this change doesn't fix the issue of TRs just running around in stealth and oneshotting everyone with dailies.
At least, under default settings and conditions your field of view is usually limited to the frontal 150 degrees or so. Hence, tactically speaking it would be wise to try and set yourself at the rear angles of your target when attempting an attack from stealth. Attack, reposition, attack, reposition, etc..
Of course, for those with the warped camera angles/field of view it might be different.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As I've said previously, with the immunity times on rolls, 2 seconds is perfect. If it were 1 second, there would only be a .2 sec window for a counter, none if the rogue rolled twice. As it is with this proposed change, a rogue can still roll 2-3 times and time out the stealth visibility, which is balanced.
In any case, yes, they can address the 1 shotting problem.
Easymode dailies is a product of the broken OP Sigil of the Devoted. Under current circumstances, a TR can rarely afford enough attacks to fill up AP quickly since the stealth depletion mechanic came into place. In prior mods, without stealth depletion a fast-AP gain build with appropriate feats, coupled with numerous repeated attacks from stealth would gather up AP quite quickly. After mod5, the generally lower AP gain rate is a balancing factor by itself to the powerful dailies.
Unfortunately, as we all know, this change has been made moot simply through the use of the DC artifact -- fire it up in the beginning of the game, and for MIs there's a nice, easy 2-consecutive Shoxecutions guaranteed every 2 minutes (so long as you kill something with the first one). Same with Bloodbath or any other stuff for that matter. With the AP gain cloaks now being slowly proliferated to the players, this will only get worse.
It's about time people start dropping the double standards IMO. If the TR is broken and needs balance, so does the Sigil of the Devoted and ALL classes/players who would make use of easy access to full AP within the first 15s of the match. IMO it's either nerf the artifact and limit the use of TR dailies ALONG with the same limitations to all other classes and their dailies as well, or leave it alone and also face the consequences of the TR making use of its features. You can't just nerf down TR dailies, and then leave others to quick and easy access to full AP every 135 seconds.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
To clarify on what morenthar says above, as a long-time WK player with special interest to the WK's Paragon encounter of VP, currently VP is finally buffed up enough to be more or less comparable to ITC in general terms. Of course, nothing short of Unstoppable quite matches the supreme utility of ITC as a surviving tool, but VP makes up what it lacks as an anti-CC tool with its general utility.
For one thing, the buffs it has received with mod5 are quite delightful in many ways. The activation speed of the teleport is now finally fast enough to make use as a CC breaker, and general increase in damage makes it a useful moderate~heavy damage attack. It has always been a nifty tool for tracking stealth as well, so VP actually becomes the most important "ace in the hole" for WK TRs in facing MI TRs. If your stealth-tracking tactics work, you defeat the MI. If not, you lose.
Of course, in terms of CC-protection, there is the need to "plant" VP beforehand, but it can be managed easily in most cases, and with either the new Sab or Scoundrel features synergizes well enough to provide significant survivability against CCs. I've actually become proficient enough to fight against a MI Scoundrel, which in normal circumstances has a very clear advantage against WKs, by making good use of Oghma's and VP.
VP is viable in every manner -- just so long as the WK Scoundrel remains on its turf, which is 1vs1 situations. Ofcourse in many vs one scenarios, the MI is clearly superior. Just no contest against ITC.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
High deflect give high chance to kill off cc too. More ever those who pvp are mostly halfing.
If the change expose you to all players, it will be different. range will target you on 1st sight, then 2 sec might be too long
this right here
i dont even go in stealth any more
i move slow and close to the wall
like a cameleon .and very few can see me
but u need to be patient
I thankfully about this feedback respon and no need to wait until next mod
i am not gonna give assumption about this change yet, need to test it
For TR don't just crying because of this change and make comment before it's tested
No amount of changes ever satisfies whiners, because there is no such thing as "balance" unless they start winning. The unfortunate matter is that most whiners lack what it takes to win, as the usual reason behind their misery is either; (a) lack of skill, (b) lack of gear/spec, or most commonly (c) lack of BOTH.
Hence even after changes which many PvP experts might comment as "adequate", they would still be left whining, since they will still lose. So what is going to happen is most TR players will actually welcome these changes instead of "cry" about it. Instead, AFTER the changes people like you would be the ones "crying" that "ooohh oooh ohhh still not enough... TRs still kill me easily... they need more nerf..".
That's what is going to happen.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You'd need someone really stupid to take full advantage of VP.
Knocked down by HR/GWF/GF/SW? VP isn't going to save you.
Icy Ray'd by a CW? 2 more CCs just waiting for you.
Like I said, VP was the **** back in the day when it did nearly 0 damage and was purely utility. Now that it has a high CD and barely decent damage, not so much.
That's 2 seconds of nonstop dodge spamming.
That's 2 seconds of giving your position and destination away.
Like I said, this wasn't a problem in Mod 4. Mainly because no one had the balls to play TR and even fewer were even decent at it. Now that it takes less brain cells than your shoe size to maintain permastealth with 0 stats invested and 0 skill with the class, it's apparently a huge problem.
I wonder what changed...
Advantageous Position isn't that great. Take it from the guy in the conversation who played WK since it was released. (Protip: It's not you).
DS only got really good after Mod 5. Even so, it's not even as powerful as you think it is. Sure, you're the idiot CW with 25k HP not using any defensive enchants or boons. Any MI Exec is going to roll up, Lashing Blade, and 1-shot you. At 4k DS ticks, that's at least 6-7 seconds of watching you flail around wondering why you're dying so fast.
I've been matched with CWs who can regen/lifesteal off the damage pretty easily. Considering how long it takes to kill a GF/GWF with DS alone, it's not as powerful as you may think.
If I didn't love WK as much as I do, I'd pick the obviously better option and respec to MI.
No, they just have the 100% safety of CCing you until you die.
Unless you're a GF/GWF/HR, in which case you're in the same position as a WK except without stealth and a ton more CC.
These "serious balance issues" were blatantly obvious on the test server.
If they're waiting weeks after the launch and over a month after previewing on the test server, I wonder what kind of attention span or qualifications they have to begin with. SoD was broken on test server. DS had high damage on test server. Why did it take several weeks of abuse on live servers for them to "address" something they already knew?
Use your head.
TRs always did good damage in PvE.
It's just with instances like CN that have 700 trash mobs and 3 bosses, clearing trash becomes a lot more prevalent than saving 30 seconds on the boss.
You're right, they did get a big boost. However, this isn't the boost TR needed. All TR needed was a few feat reworks, some QoL fixes (Like DF), and a slight damage boost to make them viable in PvP. Permastealth wasn't hard to pull off in Mod 4 with the old feats and timing dodges. It was the damage potential and the ridiculous risk vs the ridiculously lower reward.
Know what else helped before?
Not getting caught.
CWs weren't known to use Ice Terrain or Steal Time in Mod 4. Much less so as a 30 second advantage against a TR. It wasn't until the recent buffs to those skills that they became more widely seen in PvP. With that said, VP isn't going to save you. In the unlikely event that you totally screwed up your cut and paste Mod 5 permastealth rotation and got caught by a CW, which is 90% of the times your own fault, not only is VP
1) A waste of an Encounter slot
2) Saving you from 1/3 CC skills in a 1v1 scenario
3) Not saving you from a team scenario since the second activation doesn't proc One with the Shadows
4) Doing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-poor damage and putting you at risk for securing a kill.
VP saves you from a single CC in the event that you screw yourself over.
ITC is several seconds of straight-up not giving a hell because lolimmune.
Considering I've seen less than a handful of Sab MIs since Mod 5 launch, the vast majority are either Sco or Exec, in which case a Sab TR still holds the advantage. In a Domination scenario, it's not hard to track down another TR and secure a LB/Daze to refill stealth, especially if you get the early DS on them which secures your damage potential over them. Even if both of you are using the same Heroic feats and Profound set, the Sab stays stealthed longer and pulls out the SS to refill stealth and maintain the advantage. IWD and GG are obviously different and a lot of different variables factor into this.
Great job, you VP'd the MI.
Now you activate it again and eat a Daze to the face.
Followed by a Smoke Bomb.
Then another Daze proc.
Hot **** I can see why face-tanking your enemy as a TR died out over 3 mods ago.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
You're speaking as if MIs never get proned. Sure, they'd never get proned if they prepare and control their situation well enough to be able to go into ITC when stealth expires. That is true. But then is there some reason you're assuming a WK would not be able to manage its situation to its own advantage just the same?
High CD doesn't matter when you have either a Sab or a Scoundrel build. It's simply managed by clever rotations. It used to matter when the TR had NOTHING to use, so using VP would always land you in a place where you would be vulnerable, and had no way of escaping, but mod5 changed everything. They've also reduced the base CD by 2secs IIRC, from default 16s to 14s. With high enough recharge, that comes down to around 12s. Much better than before.
I'm quite sorry to say, judging by what you've wrote above you're managing the WK/Sab wrong. No, really.
MIs and WKs have different combat ranges. In most situations where the MI would require the ITC, a WK handles it well enough with a VP now. Not knowing this fact sort of makes me wonder if you've really been using Wk for that long a time as you claim.
Yep. The above confirms that regardless of how long you may have used a WK, you have no idea of how to fight with it, much less use VP correctly
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Well... this power is back to its old devastation but worse. It's as broken as ever.
1-Shotted from Full Health(48K HP) through Empowered Astral Shield + P.Barkshield + Hallowed Ground. Really now?
It ignores DR, Tenacity, and everything.
This is a never-ending cycle.
I changed the title of this thread to be more visible in searches. I think we'll sticky this for now until it things go in testing on preview. We'll then leave a redirect here to an official feedback thread in the Feedback forums when that time comes.
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That's the point.
VP is useful when you screw up your rotation and/or get caught. SS has an animation long enough that any other class with CC already landed it by the time SS refills your stealth. ITC is a wild card because you can just pop it and stop caring about CC or see the situation coming, press a single button, and you're good to go. You can stealth refill during ITC. Not so easy with VP since the second activation doesn't proc One with the Shadows. Assuming you popped it from stealth, you get a cute stun and barely enough time, if at all, to blow SS to refill stealth and dodge away.
If you didn't use it in stealth, you're face-first into a world of CC.
It doesn't really compare.
Especially when, in Mod 5, you can maintain stealth with less than 2k Recov and 0 points in Int.
ITC's cooldown is lower than that. Not only that, it's infinitely better.
TR had a lot to use in Mod 4 if you knew what the hell you were doing. Smoke Bomb is a pretty good staple when you're not always guaranteed to maintain permastealth in Domination. Drop it in a choke point and run the other way. CW Dodge barely covers that distance.
Like I said, if it's a 1v1 situation, you have so many better tools that offer more damage and equal range.
Probably.
I've grown attached to the ranged role we maintained since...WK came out.
The lack of ITC always meant we weren't meant for close-range combat.
Unless you're kweassa, in which case you VP up to a CW's face and eat 3 CCs into your spawn point.
Or, y'know, Daze them with the new ridiculous animation. LB them like we've always done. IS them from range with a nifty stun that... doesn't put you right at their nose, vulnerable, visible, and ready to eat half a dozen CC's.
This is all purely assuming you actually use the second activation of VP. Which is not only less damage than Daze, LB, or IS, but also puts you in an uncomfortable position. You can hop into sight range, LB, and dodge out before most CWs can even react to it.
I was. I used VP religiously until they added pitiful damage and a high CD to it.
Now that Mod 5 is released and:
1) Daze is a lot faster with higher damage and safer utility
2) LB's activation is faster and offers the ability to dodge out of sight range
3) Impact Shot on a Sab refills stealth from beautiful range with utility stun
I see no reason to waste my OwtS on a pitiful damage range skill with a dangerous secondary activation that doesn't proc OwtS.
Then again, I know better than to stand still in Steal Time, face tank SotEA, or run right into range of someone with a CC waiting for me. ITC is a luxury we don't have. Let's focus on skills with better utility and damage than VP. It's time was done over a mod ago.
The difference is, I don't need to rely on VP.
That's what's really setting us apart here. With all of the babygen Mod 5 Exec MIs roaming about, Sab WK is still pretty rare to see in Domi, GG, or IWD PvP.
Not only does Dazing Strike offer better utility and higher damage...
Not only does Lashing Blade offer higher damage and the ability to easily dodge out of sight...
Not only does Impact Shot offer better damage from better range...
Hell, even Blitz offers more safety with better range, mainly because you're not teleporting right into someone's face.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
1) visible time have to be lowered to 1 sec and no more
2) stealth depletion on at will needs to go, i m visible right??? So what's the point right now??
at least one can time its duelist flurry avoiding to be controlled to death everytime it strikes.
or we can just stack 11k power no tenacity and play in one shot or being shotted mode.....
2 seconds is like 33% of stealth meter + depletion.. basically i throw one cloud of steel and i lost 50% stealth potential.. TOO MUCH.
Really i would rather have my mod 4 tr back.
what 's the point in saboteur then?
just deleted it i m serious. Every class has a self healing path right? give one to tr too in the place of saboteur
Always the others that are wrong, are cluess, lies, lazy, dont understand game mechaics and so on so on.
The problem with argueing against clear evidence is that reality is becomming more and more obvious to all but to poor Kweassa...
.
The only people getting killed from a single rotation from a daze combo is those who are perhaps 3~4k lower GS than the TR. Their deaths come from lack of preparation, simply a result of being outmatched in brute force. In most cases dazes are simply avoided by WALKING AWAY. Get some frickin' Dark enchants and use them in your utility.
Deadpool // HR
Shakur // Tr
I'm curious about the ninja nerf to >Disheartening strike though, what was the change done to it? does it affect PVE?
At this point I'm considering coming back to MI, up to mod 4 I used mostly ranged skills so WK was my thing, but now I'm using Blitz, Dazing strike and Smokebomb. and I fight most of the time in melee range.
Yep that's what happened. But you don't know all about mod5 TR, it's not only the permastealth, there are many other buffs that you will soon discover.
Being dazed (by a stealthed opponent) and then killed by the dazing character in the duration of the daze its self (1 rotation) effectively destroys any possible counter-play. This regardless of a visibility window after striking/dazing. If counter-play is what is sought, the daze from stealth has to go.
Mate as a me being a TR, I fully agree to your comments as yes it does seem some TR's are nothing without stealth, personally I have never been a fan of always being in stealth. I prefer to combat all the way and if I get caught well then I am dead. Again +1 to your comments!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZgunp9xP_o
any suggestions?
Yes, the rogues are not D&D rogues, but neither is the game a D&D game. I would love, however, to play a D&D rogue in a real D&D game.
I'm happy to see the perma stealth going away finally.
The problem with 2 seconds visibility when attacking someone is that it doesn't just counter perma stealth (which is the primary intention) but it effectively counters stealth altogether. I don't perma at all., I just use stealth as a boost to some strong attacks once in a while, but still it's completely useless on 1vs1 if any attack reveals me to the other person for 2 whole seconds.
Again, as for now this is only pvp I could care less, but I feel for some pvp rogues already.
Honestly probably at least for pvp part is to be more near from DD text book to be more equilibrate, the permasthealth way could be consider as the master of shadow feat that is the only way normaly for rogue to be able to return in stealth in front of someone.
Perma scoundrel and one shot executioner won't be really affected since it mainly the first strike that decide everything from those two.
With actual damage getting the first strike is actually a big avantage for class that can do it. So personnaly only the stealth way should be able to get back to stealth in the middle of a fight. stealth bar should drop lower but once fight stealth bar should not recharge exept with special power (on opposite while off fight stealth bar should goes directly to max lvl) . So while in pvp,1 striking make you appear, 2 no stealth recharge during fight (except for the stealth path which should be on opposite with low damage)
Nice spelling mistake in the title change rofl.
OT: 2 seconds is nothing considering TR has ITC+4 dodge rolls... Either reduce their rolls back to 2 or increase the visibility to 4 seconds. OR make them extremely squishy (Saboteur and Executionners).
This won't make a difference at all.
It needs to be 2 seconds as already stated previously. If it were 1 second, you could roll right after an attack and the immunity frame from that would only allow .2 secs to counter. That is not enough time.
You still have Impossible to Catch or Vengeance's Pursuit at your use.
And now you ask the point of saboteur? Regenerating stealth to get back the 100% crit advantage in addition to being unseen until you make an attack. That's in addition to Shadowy Opportunity which gives large amounts of piercing damage.
TR's have deflection % that rivals HR in addition to Impossible to Catch and being able to make the first attack from stealth. In any case, both Executioner and Scoundrel are only reliant on the first attack out of stealth.